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[strafer]

man, I want to be there.

 

[guek]

Those are great examples of character arcs, however if we use them as a measure of success with which you contrast BvS none of them are actually good or what people wanted as they all made less money.

I mean, right now all that matters is Box Office returns, that's the true measure of success in the current discussion.

Personally, I don't think the majority of the audience even knows what a character arc is. They also lack knowledge of what quality filmmaking even is. The majority of the audiences looks at these movies as surface level entertainment and Snyder doesn't, that's why there's a disconnect with a significant portion of the audience. Snyder needs to find a balance between surface level entertainment that's sufficient for audiences and whatever artistic pretension he wants to capture on film.

They need to find their own formula, fine tune it, but it has to be unique, DC can't be Marvel Too, it must be their own thing. BvS was too unbalanced for general audiences and critics about what the director wanted to say and not in regards to what audiences wanted to see or expected. That's the true crux of the issue.

Well what are we actually discussing here? If it's box office returns then the argument could be made that all WB really needs to do is reign in their spending and aim for more modest budgets. Both MoS and BvS have made an incredible amount of money off the back of brand power even if they didn't make the kind of money the studio was hoping for. But if the issue is audience reception, critical reception, and word of mouth, that's another matter entirely. Snyder isn't some sort of misunderstood auteur. He doesn't make deep or thought provoking pieces of art that the public refuses to get behind because they're too braindead. People aren't going to look back on MoS and BvS in 20 years and remark how the public got these movies so wrong.

This notion that BvS is evidence that people don't want character arcs in their movies is absolutely ridiculous. Escapism and character development aren't mutually exclusive, and the history of cinema is littered with enough character driven BO juggernauts that presenting BvS as a misunderstood snowflake is just an excuse to feel better about liking something other people didn't.

 

[antovolk]

Interesting CW v BvS comparison:
http://www.audienceseverywhere.net/mean-film-make-sense/
A BATTLE OF THE SENSES: CIVIL WAR’S LOGICAL SENSE V DAWN OF JUSTICE’S EMOTIONAL SENSE

 

[a916]

Interesting CW v BvS comparison:
http://www.audienceseverywhere.net/mean-film-make-sense/
A BATTLE OF THE SENSES: CIVIL WAR’S LOGICAL SENSE V DAWN OF JUSTICE’S EMOTIONAL SENSE

Civil War makes sense. I should clarify: it makes logical sense. It is painstaking in its setup, fanatically dotting each I and crossing each T. The film proofs itself against the CinemaSins of the world. It’s written with “Why didn’t [x] just happen?” in mind. I couldn’t help but picture the Russo brothers hunched over a desk, their fingers calloused from furious typing, weeping bitter tears as they delete ten pages because they forgot to explain why Black Widow walks from one part of the airport to another.

Literally what the Russo's did. It was apparently a running thing during Civil War. Is CinemaSins going to point this out?

 

[guek]

Interesting CW v BvS comparison:
http://www.audienceseverywhere.net/mean-film-make-sense/
A BATTLE OF THE SENSES: CIVIL WAR’S LOGICAL SENSE V DAWN OF JUSTICE’S EMOTIONAL SENSE

Pretty nonsense evaluation of Civil War, tbh, with a not so subtle method of starting with a conclusion - Civil War is emotionless - and working backwards. It ignores

Spoiler

any build up of these characters in prior movies, particularly Tony's, as well as the emotional consequences of Steve's betrayal of Tony's trust, Tony's resentment over the relationship Steve had with his farther Howard, and Panther's arc in his quest for revenge. Civil War's climax worked for so many people precisely because it was emotionally charged.

Blah blah blah, Civil War probably didn't work for a lot of people in here that prefer DC while BvS somehow did and that's fair, I'm not trying to deny anyone that, but the article does seem to be working backwards from a premise.

 

[gamz]

Interesting CW v BvS comparison:
http://www.audienceseverywhere.net/mean-film-make-sense/
A BATTLE OF THE SENSES: CIVIL WAR’S LOGICAL SENSE V DAWN OF JUSTICE’S EMOTIONAL SENSE

That's interesting. I have zero idea why people have issues with the Martha scene. i thought it was clever and unexpected. I thought it worked very well.

 

[antovolk]

Literally what the Russo's did. It was apparently a running thing during Civil War. Is CinemaSins going to point this out?

And they aren't even ashamed to admit it - they did it on TWS and CW:

As the Russos reveal, they specifically set out to make a film that was “Honest Trailer-proof,” which was a phrase they used while working on the script. Or as Joe puts it, he would frequently tell his screenwriters, “I’m not gonna fucking let Honest Trailers beat us up over this lapse in logic. So we’re gonna fix this story point.”

http://www.avclub.com/article/russo-brothers-watch-winter-soldier-honest-trailer-236039

 

[Smokey_Run]

Literally what the Russo's did. It was apparently a running thing during Civil War. Is CinemaSins going to point this out?

Yup. Their goal was to "Honest Trailer proof" the film and made it a point during production.

That's interesting. I have zero idea why people have issues with the Martha scene. i thought it was clever and unexpected. I thought it worked very well.

I find it ironic people have a problem with it, but are completely fine with the extremely convenient ending bit in Civil War.

 

[guek]

And they aren't even ashamed to admit it - they did it on TWS and CW:


http://www.avclub.com/article/russo-brothers-watch-winter-soldier-honest-trailer-236039

Why should that be a point of shame? Writers and directors should always try their hardest to make sure a movie turns out plot hole free.

 

[antovolk]

That's interesting. I have zero idea why people have issues with the Martha scene. i thought it was clever and unexpected. I thought it worked very well.

It's set up very well from Batman's side, the only possible issue I see is with Superman's side - why would he say "Save Martha?" instead of "save my mother/Lex has my mother" - in my mind (and I hope/think the extended cut will clarify this) Superman knows that Batman is Bruce - obviously - and that their mothers share the same name, I like to think he finds both out when investigating Batman in Gotham before Lex's party.

 

[Ahasverus]

Why should that be a point of shame? Writers and directors should always try their hardest to make sure a movie turns out plot hole free.

You're always defending Marvel while dragging DC through the mud, why you chose this tread as your home is certainly baffling to me, you don't see me in the MCU thread that often, and that's only because even if I'm loving the post WS MCU it would be hyprocritical. Not to say you /should not/ be here, but maybe try to get the context of this thread, we are rooting for DC here, and we don't need to drag the MCU down for that, we have enough "battles" of our own.

 

[gamz]

It's set up very well from Batman's side, the only possible issue I see is with Superman's side - why would he say "Save Martha?" instead of "save my mother/Lex has my mother" - in my mind (and I hope/think the extended cut will clarify this) Superman knows that Batman is Bruce - obviously - and that their mothers share the same name, I like to think he finds both out when investigating Batman in Gotham before Lex's party.

Because it works better then "Save mommy" or "save my mother".

 

[Smokey_Run]

Why should that be a point of shame? Writers and directors should always try their hardest to make sure a movie turns out plot hole free.

If your entire production for a major blockbuster revolves around what a stupid YouTube video might have to say about your film.. you might be taking it too damn far.

It's set up very well from Batman's side, the only possible issue I see is with Superman's side - why would he say "Save Martha?" instead of "save my mother/Lex has my mother" - in my mind (and I hope/think the extended cut will clarify this) Superman knows that Batman is Bruce - obviously - and that their mothers share the same name, I like to think he finds both out when investigating Batman in Gotham before Lex's party.

Cause this is a man that wants to kill you, hates everything about you, and wants to wipe you from existence. Why would you tell him to save your mother? It makes more sense in that moment to protect your mother while trying to save her.

 

[guek]

You're always defending Marvel while dragging DC through the mud, why you chose this tread as your home is certainly baffling to me, you don't see me in the MCU thread that often, and that's only because even if I'm loving the post WS MCU it would be hyprocritical. Not to say you /should not/ be here, but maybe try to get the context of this thread, we are rooting for DC here, and we don't need to drag the MCU down for that, we have enough "battles" of our own.

How exactly am I dragging DC through the mud? I'm rooting for DC too, dude, I just happen to not like Snyder's films and don't think anything close to a billion is a reasonable expectation for Suicide Squad on its best day.

Dragging down the MCU just to feel better about the DCEU seems to be exactly what happens a lot in here and it's dumb. Just like what you like.

If your entire production for a major blockbuster revolves around what a stupid YouTube video might have to say about your film.. you might be taking it too damn far.

Entire production? That seems awfully presumptive. The only point when it'd be taking things too far is if the product suffered as a result.

 

[Smokey_Run]

How exactly am I dragging DC through the mud? I'm rooting for DC too, dude, I just happen to not like Snyder's films and don't think anything close to a billion is a reasonable expectation for Suicide Squad on its best day.

Dragging down the MCU just to feel better about the DCEU seems to be exactly what happens a lot in here and it's dumb. Just like what you like.



Entire production? That seems awfully presumptive. The only point when it'd be taking things too far is if the product suffered as a result.

They admitted it to ScreenJunkies that it was a running theme of their production. "Honest Trailer proof this movie."

 

[guek]

They admitted it to ScreenJunkies that it was a running theme of their production. "Honest Trailer proof this movie."

I know that but you're acting like that wasn't a means to an end, like their primary motive was to avoid being criticized by Honest Trailers rather than make a good movie. Who cares if they jokingly referred to a youtube show in that manner. If they had just said "plot-hole proof this movie," the result would have been the same. I don't get why that deserves shaming.

 

[Ahasverus]

They admitted it to ScreenJunkies that it was a running theme of their production. "Honest Trailer proof this movie."

Honestly, they should have put more thought into Spider-Man's inclusion. And Honest Trailers is still going to have a field day with the quips, just like AoU.

That said, Honest Trailers and CinemaSins being somewhat a metric of quality is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Those were for comedy at first, but I have the creeping feeling that they're starting to think themselves as actual critics.

 

[antovolk]

Here's them expressing this in a less jokey way

What’s so funny is that I’m an avid honest trailer watcher. I love it, it cracks me up. So I think we talked about it in the commentary we used to sit in the room and go, “this is not going to end up in an honest trailer. This logic isn’t sound enough yet.” We literally tried to Honest Trailer proof the movie. Because what Honest Trailers really is, and I’ll say litmus test again, is “how sound is the logic in your film? How ridiculous are the buys that you’re asking the audience to make?” So we would just comb through the script over and over again and go, “how do we shore up this logic? How do we shore up this logic?” So it was a very helpful exercise for us.

http://collider.com/captain-america-the-winter-soldier-joe-russo-anthony-russo-interview/

 

[Lord Virgin]

Guys come on, not in here with that Marvel/DC bullshit.

Seeing The Nice Guys tomorrow, if Gosling is as good as people say he is...get on it WB!! Dude is a fantastic actor, snatch him up already.

 

[broncobuster]

That's interesting. I have zero idea why people have issues with the Martha scene. i thought it was clever and unexpected. I thought it worked very well.

Seeing it early, the Martha moment didn't occur to me as something folks would get fixated on. Thought Lois' spear shenanigans would be the topic du jour.

Guys come on, not in here with that Marvel/DC bullshit.

Seeing The Nice Guys tomorrow, if Gosling is as good as people say he is...get on it WB!! Dude is a fantastic actor, snatch him up already.

It's great and he's great in it. A friend who didn't care for Gosling did a 180 on him after seeing it.

 

[antovolk]

Guys come on, not in here with that Marvel/DC bullshit.

Seeing The Nice Guys tomorrow, if Gosling is as good as people say he is...get on it WB!! Dude is a fantastic actor, snatch him up already.

Not even constructive comparisons?

Speaking of TNG - saw it last night and can confirm Gosling is fucking hilarious

 

[guek]

Honestly, they should have put more thought into Spider-Man's inclusion. And Honest Trailers is still going to have a field day with the quips, just like AoU.

That said, Honest Trailers and CinemaSins being somewhat a metric of quality is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Those were for comedy at first, but I have the creeping feeling that they're starting to think themselves as actual critics.

I don't know about CInemaSins since their videos are never funny and pretty much always crap nitpicks but the Honest Trailer guys definitely know it's a comedy show. The Russos are referring to the show as an exercise in logical filmmaking, it's something every good director does to make sure their film makes sense.

And yeah, there was still PLENTY in Civil War to pick apart.

 

[Smokey_Run]

I know that but you're acting like that wasn't a means to an end, like their primary motive was to avoid being criticized by Honest Trailers rather than make a good movie. Who cares if they jokingly referred to a youtube show in that manner. If they had just said "plot-hole proof this movie," the result would have been the same. I don't get why that deserves shaming.

Then spin it as such and don't even mention Honest Trailers. Don't sit there and say, "Well, it was brought up by a number of people over months and months and was probably said dozens and dozens of times." It just rubs me the wrong way and I'd be saying the same thing regardless of who said it.

 

[greendomo's ghost]

Cmon guys there's a big difference between wanting all of your characters to have logical, believable arcs and motivations, and basing your entire production around being honest trailer proof. Honestly Snyder, Terrio et al could've used a bit of that attitude when it came to developing and writing the story for BvS. And I say that as a huge DC fan.

 

[thehypocrite]

Well what are we actually discussing here? If it's box office returns then the argument could be made that all WB really needs to do is reign in their spending and aim for more modest budgets. Both MoS and BvS have made an incredible amount of money off the back of brand power even if they didn't make the kind of money the studio was hoping for. But if the issue is audience reception, critical reception, and word of mouth, that's another matter entirely. Snyder isn't some sort of misunderstood auteur. He doesn't make deep or thought provoking pieces of art that the public refuses to get behind because they're too braindead. People aren't going to look back on MoS and BvS in 20 years and remark how the public got these movies so wrong.

This notion that BvS is evidence that people don't want character arcs in their movies is absolutely ridiculous. Escapism and character development aren't mutually exclusive, and the history of cinema is littered with enough character driven BO juggernauts that presenting BvS as a misunderstood snowflake is just an excuse to feel better about liking something other people didn't.

The notion never was that BvS is an example of the fact that people don't care about character arcs. The point, putting it simple, people don't even know what character arcs are, the reason why BvS didn't connect with a sufficient portion of the audiences isn't the quality of the character arcs, but the lack of surface level entertainment that large audiences crave.

Audiences at the cineplex don't connect in significant numbers with artistic films, they just want to be entertained. That's it.

 

[Ahasverus]

I don't know about CInemaSins since their videos are never funny and pretty much always crap nitpicks but the Honest Trailer guys definitely know it's a comedy show. The Russos are referring to the show as an exercise in logical filmmaking, it's something every good director does to make sure their film makes sense.

And yeah, there was still PLENTY in Civil War to pick apart.

Yeah it's a very respectable sense. No argument here. The movie was really solid.

 

[Lord Virgin]

Seeing it early, the Martha moment didn't occur to me as something folks would get fixated on. Thought Lois' spear shenanigans would be the topic du jour.



It's great and he's great in it. A friend who didn't care for Gosling did a 180 on him after seeing it.

Not even constructive comparisons?

Speaking of TNG - saw it last night and can confirm Gosling is fucking hilarious

Comparisons are fair game. But I zone out when it seems to go into console war like discussion. Don't need that stuff in there.

Also; stop hyping me! Hope the movie delivers, can't fucking wait. Too bad the movie will bomb.

 

[a916]

Honestly, they should have put more thought into Spider-Man's inclusion. And Honest Trailers is still going to have a field day with the quips, just like AoU.

That said, Honest Trailers and CinemaSins being somewhat a metric of quality is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Those were for comedy at first, but I have the creeping feeling that they're starting to think themselves as actual critics.

If you can pick apart The Dark Knight, you can pick apart Civil War even more

 

[guek]

The notion never was that BvS is an example of the fact that people don't care about character arcs. The point, putting it simple, people don't even know what character arcs are, the reason why BvS didn't connect with a sufficient portion of the audiences isn't the quality of the character arcs, but the lack of surface level entertainment that large audiences crave.

Audiences at the cineplex don't connect in significant numbers with artistic films, they just want to be entertained. That's it.

Eh, it depends. Interstellar made $675M!! Inception made $825M! Those are very good numbers. They're also from Christopher Nolan though who has a knack for taking artistic themes and making them engaging for wide audiences.

But yes, for comic book movies and blockbusters as a whole, people tend to want to be entertained first and foremost. What I disagree with though is the argument that people didn't connect with BvS because audiences don't even know what character arcs are. I don't see much evidence for that.

I'm personally hoping Ayer goes for less "artistic vision" with Suicide Squad and more batshit crazy antics from batshit crazy people.

 

[Lord Virgin]

I hope SS has lots of fight scenes. I don't care for shootouts, it's just boring to me. But a well done fight scene? Sign me the fuck up.

I said this a thousand times: have a Batman fight scene like in BvS but against the SS instead of some random goons. I'd sacrifice all of you for something like that.

 

[thehypocrite]

Eh, it depends. Interstellar made $675M!! Inception made $825M! Those are very good numbers. They're also from Christopher Nolan though who has a knack for taking artistic themes and making them engaging for wide audiences.

But yes, for comic book movies and blockbusters as a whole, people tend to want to be entertained first and foremost. What I disagree with though is the argument that people didn't connect with BvS because audiences don't even know what character arcs are. I don't see much evidence for that.

I'm personally hoping Ayer goes for less "artistic vision" with Suicide Squad and more batshit crazy antics from batshit crazy people.

And Squad will be that. In regards to BvS I surmise that the balance between what Snyder wanted to put on screen and the setup it required and what audiences expects from these characters in these types of movies in regards of entertainment was too skewed in the directors favor. Thus, the reaction from the majority of the audience. He needs to provide more cool moments, more surface level, feel good entertainment in JL.

 

[Rooster12]

I said this a thousand times: have a Batman fight scene like in BvS but against the SS instead of some random goons. I'd sacrifice all of you for something like that.

I'd only want something like that if Batman loses and get his butt kicked.

 

[a916]

I hope SS has lots of fight scenes. I don't care for shootouts, it's just boring to me. But a well done fight scene? Sign me the fuck up.

I said this a thousand times: have a Batman fight scene like in BvS but against the SS instead of some random goons. I'd sacrifice all of you for something like that.

All of us?

 

[Firemind]

I'd only want something like that if Batman loses and get his butt kicked.

But... He's Batman,

 

[Lord Virgin]

I'd only want something like that if Batman loses and get his butt kicked.

Maybe with Baleman, Batfleck has no time for that shit. He'd fucking end them.

All of us?

Every single one of you assholes!!!

Spoiler

loveuguys

But seriously, that would be so great. You know that 'uh-oh' moment in the trailer? People thought it was the Joker showing up? What if it is Batfleck? He would be the only person they are actually scared of.

 

[greendomo's ghost]

And Squad will be that. In regards to BvS I surmise that the balance between what Snyder wanted to put on screen and the setup it required and what audiences expects from these characters in these types of movies in regards of entertainment was too skewed in the directors favor. Thus, the reaction from the majority of the audience. He needs to provide more cool moments, more surface level, feel good entertainment in JL.

The problem is that if you don't have the spectacle, what are you left with? The characters - their dialog, actions, and emotions. And in the case of BvS, they weren't consistent, believable, or satisfying on a story level. If BvS was a better film, it wouldve made more money, it's as simple as that.

And to your earlier points, yeah the amount of profit makes a difference. Disney just cancelled it's Disney Infinity video game serious because it wasn't profitable enough. Is it worth spending two-three years of your life and the lives of dozens of others to make a 10% profit? What if a different director could use those same resources and get you a 30% profit? What if you could give the resources to the Harry Potter IP instead and make a 50% profit?

Just because a film makes money doesn't make it a worthwhile business investment.

 

[Discotheque]

I like how they got bootleg fosters beer cans in there with boomerangs props

Character will be pretty hilarious I imagine

 

[Poodlestrike]

I like how they got bootleg fosters beer cans in there with boomerangs props

Character will be pretty hilarious I imagine

Boomer is gonna be the breakout character from this thing, calling it now.

 

[Bleepey]

It's set up very well from Batman's side, the only possible issue I see is with Superman's side - why would he say "Save Martha?" instead of "save my mother/Lex has my mother" - in my mind (and I hope/think the extended cut will clarify this) Superman knows that Batman is Bruce - obviously - and that their mothers share the same name, I like to think he finds both out when investigating Batman in Gotham before Lex's party.

The Martha thing makes sense. Superman at his dying breath tried to say save Martha Kent not just Martha. It makes sense. Maybe Snyder should have made it clearer but when you think about it and not too hard it's logical.

 

[Future Foundation]

I like how they got bootleg fosters beer cans in there with boomerangs props

Character will be pretty hilarious I imagine

Boomer is gonna be the breakout character from this thing, calling it now.

The whole look just works for me.

 

[thehypocrite]

The problem is that if you don't have the spectacle, what are you left with? The characters - their dialog, actions, and emotions. And in the case of BvS, they weren't consistent, believable, or satisfying on a story level. If BvS was a better film, it wouldve made more money, it's as simple as that.

And to your earlier points, yeah the amount of profit makes a difference. Disney just cancelled it's Disney Infinity video game serious because it wasn't profitable enough. Is it worth spending two-three years of your life and the lives of dozens of others to make a 10% profit? What if a different director could use those same resources and get you a 30% profit? What if you could give the resources to the Harry Potter IP instead and make a 50% profit?

Just because a film makes money doesn't make it a worthwhile business investment.

If it had more action and less drama and visual storytelling it would have done better at the BO. If it had a simple story with simpler themes it would have done better as long as the action was there. Heck look at James Cameron, none of his movie have great acting, or deep themes, there's barely a story there in order to wrap the kinetic action found on his movies and audiences lap it up.


In regards to your second point. I can be convinced, show me these other options that will generate more profit. Jupiter Ascending? Pan? In the heart of the sea? Meh, I don't see it.

 

[Rooster12]

But... He's Batman,

But it's Suicide Squad's movie

In Bat's own movie...yeah he get to wreck shit. But DC needs to start respecting their other characters too

 

[Lord Virgin]

But it's Suicide Squad's movie

In Bat's own movie...yeah he get to wreck shit. But DC needs to start respecting their other characters too

But it's Batman...and more than that; it is Ben Affleck Batman.

 

[Smokey_Run]

But it's Suicide Squad's movie

In Bat's own movie...yeah he get to wreck shit. But DC needs to start respecting their other characters too

Batman likely put all of them in jail and they've been sitting there for an extended period of time while Batman is still out there doing his thing. Why should he do the job in that scenario?

 

[Ahasverus]

Wait, I'm finding contradicting information, so "DC films" is an autonomous division of WB now?

 

[IconGrist]

So this is my theory on why Superman's arc thus far has been, at the very best, divisive. It's one arc over 3 movies. I'd love to hear another example of this but I can't think of one off the top of my head. There have been multiple movie character arcs to be sure but they usually include a single movie arc as well per movie. I figure this is more appealing in that immediate satisfaction kind a way. Snyder and Terrio seem to have cut that part out. Each movie had a theme for Superman so far but while MoS started an arc it never finished, and it still wasn't finished in BvS. To anyone paying even a little attention this makes it seem as if his character is going nowhere. If I'm right this will pay off in JL. If I'm wrong, well, no one will give a shit anyway lol.

 

[Busty]

Wait, I'm finding contradicting information, so "DC films" is an autonomous division of WB now?

Eh. They don't have 'green light' authority and they will have to co-ordinate with the rest of the Warners so...., no. I wouldn't say so.

But that doesn't mean that they aren't a 'trusted authority' on the projects they produce.

 

[Ahasverus]

Eh. They don't have 'green light' authority and they will have to co-ordinate with the rest of the Warners so...., no. I wouldn't say so.
But that doesn't mean that they aren't a 'trusted authority' on the projects they produce.

Oh. Does Marvel Studios have greenlight authority?

 

[MisterHero]

Jared was on Ellen and talked a little Suicide Squad: http://ellentube.com/videos/0-8cl8k7h7/

Granted, a lot of his roles are rather depressing roles lol but I still think that's good to hear, a lot of the cast has been talking about how much fun they had filming this.

Also, new outfit... lol:

Joker shiz

Some creepy Enchantress stuff

Boomerangs

The Burton/Schumacher Batman logo is canon in the Snyderverse via merchandising.

Amazing

 

[Ahasverus]

I'm warming up to NuJoker!
I like his influence in the Rebirth series