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DC Extended Universe |OT3| A League of Academy Award Winners
- Thread starter IconGrist
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Inferno313
Banned
BUT you could watch a good movie with booze instead!
We moved onto Raiders of The Lost Ark (she'd never seen it, wtf!) shortly after.
WW and Superman are two different to make this kind of statement.
GuitarAtomik
Member
WW/MoS>>>BvS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Suicide Squad
Coming out of WW, I put it slightly above MoS, but honestly I don't know if I can put one over the other.
Coming out of WW, I put it slightly above MoS, but honestly I don't know if I can put one over the other.
I must be blind because I don't see it that way.
MugiwaraCole
Member
As they're portrayed in the DCEU, sure.
But she's definitely pretty much playing Supes role so far in this universe. Which I don't terribly mind, WW should enjoy the limelight for once.
I just wish it didn't come at the expense of a well-written Superman.
Uuuuuhhh.... sure.
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
You are a mess.
I haven't seen SS since I saw it in theaters. There's nothing about it that warrants a revisit for me except the pleasure of watching that bar scene and thinking about what the movie could have been.
I'm so glad I don't vehemently hate any movies like some of you guys seem to do. I don't hate Suicide Squad at all, but I do wish it had lived up to it's potential from that first trailer. It's my least favorite of the 4 DCEU movies for sure, but I can't flat out HATE a movie just for existing. I find there are some fun scenes in that movie and I like a few of the actors portrayals of the characters I've grown up with over 35 years. I have no problem with re-watching it if I see it on TV or someone suggests to pop it in to kill some time.
If I ranked in order it'd be pretty much like everyone else's list
BvS:UC - Mos/WW - SS
And honestly, MoS and WW are pretty much tied right now for 2nd favorite.
If I ranked in order it'd be pretty much like everyone else's list
BvS:UC - Mos/WW - SS
And honestly, MoS and WW are pretty much tied right now for 2nd favorite.
Yeah, I don't get the hate boner for some of these movies either. I'm guessing it's because I don't have that much history with these characters that I can accept different versions of them.
One of the things that's got me scratching my head about all the Wonder Woman praise is the 'heroic' label that's being attached to the movie. It's being thrown around as something the other movies lack and I'm pretty sure the other movies have dozens examples of heroism. I don't really get the difference between what's offered in WW as 'heroic' than what we saw in MoS and BvS.
Should Superman have been thrown a party when he saved the girl from the fire instead of being worshipped? Is it that simple?
One of the things that's got me scratching my head about all the Wonder Woman praise is the 'heroic' label that's being attached to the movie. It's being thrown around as something the other movies lack and I'm pretty sure the other movies have dozens examples of heroism. I don't really get the difference between what's offered in WW as 'heroic' than what we saw in MoS and BvS.
Should Superman have been thrown a party when he saved the girl from the fire instead of being worshipped? Is it that simple?
I honestly think it's the perception of how the heroes enjoyed/were burdened with their actions. Superman did heroic things for sure, but he wasn't reveling in doing them (which I think was totally ok for the tone of that movie), while Diana was enjoying what she was doing as she was doing it, not just afterwards. When she busts though the window with the shield, she's smiling and almost laughing at how easy it's coming to her and that she knows she's changing something for the better.
GuitarAtomik
Member
My specific hatred ("hatred" is probably a strong word. Maybe "extreme dislike" is more appropriate) for Suicide Squad comes from the fact that it is one of the most poorly put together big budget movies I've ever seen just from a purely objective technical movie making perspective. That's on top of it making all the wrong choices on a fundamental level like pitting this team against a world ending Superman level threat, or not justifying half of it's members (why is Harley here again?), especially when they have the solution to a bunch of those problems by just making Joker the villain. It even had boring action which tends to be a saving grace for me in situations like this. The cherry on top was the amazing trailer that put my (and most people's) expectations pretty damn high. The only real high point is that a few of the actors nail their characters despite all of that which ironically just makes it all the more disappointing.
MugiwaraCole
Member
My guy, we don't want to hate the movie. We just think it's terrible, so....we hate it. Lmfao it's not intentional on our part.
I don't necessarily agree with the comparison, but there's really nothing odd with his opinion.
Some folks can definitely go overboard and just go straight hyperbole and hate, unfortunately. Personally I don't 'hate' any of them, as I can rewatch them all. But you can not 'hate' a movie and still acknowledge it's very very flawed.
Probably the best way to approach it is to really break down the differences you saw in both characters in these movies. Their motivations, their mannerisms, their responses to adversity, their ideals and how they both approach acting on their ideals as well as respond to having those ideals challenged. I'd say there are similarities and differences and I would guess that some of those differences resonate better with a lot of people and what they feel 'superheroes' represent.
If you say so.
*shrug* ok man. if you can't really actually back up your disagreement, it's not my problem.
I think what Wingfan said is true for the most part in that it's all about tone. I can see how someone can like what Diana does more because she does it with a flair of enthusiam that you don't really see from Clark. I attribute that to the fact that Diana really loves to fight and that's her in her natural element. Clark to me is the guy who doesn't want combat since he's avoided it his entire life and he's growing into that role, so him not being totally comfortable in that situation is understandable. I still view everything he does as heroic because he still does all those things. He doesn't have to do anything but he chooses to anyway. That's selfless and the right thing to do which I ascribed to heroism.
I'm not sure how much we're discussing spoilers, but I really like Diana's reaction when things don't go her way: when they gas the village and she realizes that she can't save everyone. She almost breaks down. That made her seem more real to me. That's how we act when life throws us a curveball and our beliefs break down.
I think I like my heroes brooding a little bit lol.
Snyder that edgy edgelord should have learnt from St Donner and had Superman crack a smile each time he engaged in murder instead of feel distraught
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY5RD3Ocmsg
It was never your problem, I just replied to your statement.
nothing wrong with that, and I can relate a lot of the time. I really don't think the combat thing is the full difference there, though, as it really doesn't apply to her general ideals about helping people and suffering, justice, etc. you're probably right about the enthusiasm angle in general though, I would think that goes a long way with people.
agree with you on the spoiler
the passive aggressive stuff would suggest otherwise. not really sure why you're so defensive/insulting over a reasonable opinion, but whatever.
I'm not being defensive nor meaning to come off that way. I'm just replying. I don't argue on this forum anymore.
MugiwaraCole
Member
Arguing=/=discussing
That's a better way of what I was trying to say. Clark doesn't want to fight, it really his last resort. Diana is a trained and bred warrior by default.
Bleepey, I know you always harp on that "smile while you kill" stuff, but that's not what we're saying. It's just, for better or worse, the only examples we have in these movies thus far to give us A to B comparisons. It's just the optics of how the DC heroes have been portrayed so far which isn't at the current general perceived notion of how these heroes act from the comics and the older media that has seeped into the pop culture. DC will get there from the looks of it. I believe Synder had a vision the whole time of his Superman arc. Instead of doing it all in one movie like Superman 78, he's taking a trilogy to get us to that super heroic truth justice and the American way Superman.
I think what people wanted from MoS or BvS Superman was just a few more scenes of heroism on a smaller level. Literally saving a cat from a tree or helping an old lady cross the street. To some people, THAT'S Superman. Not just saving a Russian rocket from blowing up, or an oil rig from collapsing, or a girl from a fire that ends up into some sort of worship. It's just about how and when you show these acts.
I actually love what Synder has done with the deconstruction of the Superman theory in these movies. I like the different take on it because I've already seen 5 Superman movies that were the other thing. I only think he went a bit too far in the other direction and missed some chances to reel it back in. But like I said, I think we're getting there with Justice League and hopefully the MoS sequel.
Whatever you want to call it, I'm not doing it. Have at it if you want.
MugiwaraCole
Member
lol the whole "uhhh if you say so" bit is, effectively, arguing. But whatever makes you feel better about how you spend your time on an Internet forum lmao
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Sorry but I agree with them. Comes off as passive aggressive and we don't really need that here, at all.
broncobuster
Banned
fwiw I think MoS and BvS (and Marvel Studios, Sony, Fox movies) have heroism and heroic moments. For me what sets Wonder Woman apart is the build up and context that make her heroic actions that much stronger. I got a strong sense of the, you know, who/what/why/where behind her actions. And having it set in a realistic backdrop helped.
Actually, the opening of BvS with Bruce running to his building is another strong example of heroism in these movies, but to a different end because he fails. It build on his insecurities and hate in the present day.
Inferno313
Banned
Yeah! I've got enough passive-aggression for everyone here!
... I hope you guys think I'm nice like Wonder Woman...
and not Superman huehuehue
I don't have to justify how I spend my time on an internet forum. I discuss what I want to and I don't when I don't want to.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Why do you think Cavill is in MI6?
Your face is a mess.
Smokey_Run
Member
I still think if they're going for old Hal Jordan with young John Stewart and the whole buddy cop thing, Cruise would be a good pick since Patrick Wilson got snatched up for Aquaman.
This is the same type of garbage that was parotted in the Civil War threads... you could make an argument that WW goes out of her way to save people that have nothing to do with the mission and is a better hero, but she's not a better Superman nor is she trying to be.
Last time I checked, Superman doesn't come with a deer in headlights naivety out of a different time that is inherit with the WW character.
It's a baseless and very face level criticism that falls apart under closer inspection. Saying something like this makes it sound like Jenkins/Gadot failed to make a WW movie and instead made a Superman movie in disguise, which is a disservice to how well they created/shaped Wonder Woman's character.
GuitarAtomik
Member
I feel like Cruise would ask for too much money to headline any of these. Green Lantern more than most of these franchises needs to save a lot of budget for effects. They'd be better served getting a cheaper actor.
But then you may miss out on a good movie
Like maybe one or two drinks
But shitty movies = lots of drinking
Good movies = wanting to focus
Uhhhh, it's true.
MugiwaraCole
Member
The blue boyscout isn't naive? Hmm.
Gal played a great Wonder Woman. Patty wrote/directed a great Wonder Woman.
There's some Superman in there, though, made more apparent by the fact the universe feels kinda like it's missing one. As he is now, Cavill's doesn't feel like he can be the heart and soul and moral compass of a Justice League. She does.
As does Captain America. Deal with it 
I think people make this comparison because I don't feel Snyder truly turned that corner with his Superman.
WW shares many ideals with Supes as she does with many heroes. But with this movie it's really prominent. Snyder's Superman is way too conflicted for a lot of people. Don't get me wrong. I love the themes and questions posed about where Superman fits in today's world and how he's conflicted.
I just don't feel that's come full circle yet in how we view Superman.
Also it really shows that Patty was inspired by Donner's Superman. I think another big thing is Gal literally gives the best portrayal of the character. Just like how Reeves was Superman. Like you can't see anyone playing that role at the time.
The blue boyscout isn't naive? Hmm.
Gal played a great Wonder Woman. Patty wrote/directed a great Wonder Woman.
There's some Superman in there, though, made more apparent by the fact the universe feels kinda like it's missing one. As he is now, Cavill's doesn't feel like he can be the heart and soul and moral compass of a Justice League. She does.
As does Captain America. Deal with it
I think this is what people really want to say, which isn't the same as she's a better Superman than Superman.
broncobuster
Banned
I dunno. There's a nebulous idea of who Superman is, compounded by how audiences unaware of who Wonder Woman was. So folks see a good-natured hero and go "she's/he's like Superman!" Nah. Gal Gadot is like Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman. Chris Evans is like Captain America in Winter Soldier. And to say Henry Cavill's Superman isn't Superman goes back to the stiflingly narrow image of him across the character's 78 year history.
That said, his Superman needs to lighten up, but it's always been a quality of the world, reflecting our society, and less the character. I mean, both his Superman and Clark Kent stories in BvS dealt with him wanting to help people while those in power tell him not to for political and business reasons.
It's also interesting to think about a character like Flash in the universe, who like Holland's Spider-Man, is a superhero born in a world with superheroes. They're able to bypass the growing paints of being the first. Plus we know Flash is influenced by Superman in JL.
That said, his Superman needs to lighten up, but it's always been a quality of the world, reflecting our society, and less the character. I mean, both his Superman and Clark Kent stories in BvS dealt with him wanting to help people while those in power tell him not to for political and business reasons.
It's also interesting to think about a character like Flash in the universe, who like Holland's Spider-Man, is a superhero born in a world with superheroes. They're able to bypass the growing paints of being the first. Plus we know Flash is influenced by Superman in JL.
I think the biggest issue with Cavill's Superman is that the character is suffering from a lack of agency. We don't get a ton of moments where we hear him state why he does things or where he really makes decisions based on his own principles and world view. The movies kind of operate on the idea that "This is Superman. You know what he's all about."
Part of the reason the "You are my world" at the end of BvS manages to land is that it's a rare moment where Clark states very plainly why he's about to take the action he's taking. The rest of the time, he's constantly conflicted and sort of being pushed around through the narrative. We don't get enough moments to really identify with him and get a feel for the "why?" of being Superman.
Beyond that, being Superman appears to be just him going through the motions. Which is probably the point, showing the burden of being Superman on this normal guy who just happens to have incredible powers. But when you have to compare him to characters like Cap or Wondy or even CW's Flash, who are all emotive, constantly stating and reiterating their principles, and acting with agency on those principles even in the face of challenges, he comes up a little short.
Part of the reason the "You are my world" at the end of BvS manages to land is that it's a rare moment where Clark states very plainly why he's about to take the action he's taking. The rest of the time, he's constantly conflicted and sort of being pushed around through the narrative. We don't get enough moments to really identify with him and get a feel for the "why?" of being Superman.
Beyond that, being Superman appears to be just him going through the motions. Which is probably the point, showing the burden of being Superman on this normal guy who just happens to have incredible powers. But when you have to compare him to characters like Cap or Wondy or even CW's Flash, who are all emotive, constantly stating and reiterating their principles, and acting with agency on those principles even in the face of challenges, he comes up a little short.
Yup. The big thing about The Wonder Woman movie. Is she is constantly stating how they HAVE to do something. "Steve we have to save these people" Or her whole monologue to the villain of the movie about He's wrong about humanity.
Like shit like that matters to people and I'm not going to lie. It made me tear up a few times.
I definitely understand what you're saying about this version of Supes. Of course he's going to save people. It's the easiest way to portray him. But I agree. he's way too conflicted. Like you said. Most of the choices he makes are in service to the narrative.
We saw it at the end of BvS when he says "This is my world" and he gave Batman hope by showing him there are still good men.
I'm hoping JL really pushes him in the Supes that does things by his principles and just generally lighten up a bit.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Well, that's why they killed him off hopefully and have him missed, so he can stop being so conflicted and feel appreciated and show that, too.
broncobuster
Banned
Yeah. While the Ultimate Edition of BvS smoothed things over compared to the theatrical, ideally BvS would've leaned harder into Superman being the protagonist and Batman being the antagonist (while obviously falling under the umbrella of Luthor).
Although, one of my favorite parts of BvS is the montage of talking heads arguing about the merits of Superman, as Clark frustratingly sits there watching it. When he finally decides to go and speak up, he never has the opportunity as Luthor sets off the bomb.
YUP. Cavill had something like 38 lines of dialog in BvS... That's not nearly enough for a character to state motivation and have really great character moments (or at least more than one).
Give the man some dialog and let him act. Cavill is a super charming dude. When I saw Man from UNCLE I was like,"Why am I not seeing him be like this?"
Inferno313
Banned
Look, Batman has spent the better part of his film career getting upstaged by the villains in his movie.
He just wanted a chance to do that to someone else's movie!
This problem is compounded by the fact that he has practically no lines of dialogue in Man of Steel. So that's two movies in a row where he says very little.