Support NeoGAF

[ReiGun]

This problem is compounded by the fact that he has practically no lines of dialogue in Man of Steel. So that's two movies in a row where he says very little.

Plus, he knows how much he'll be in Justice League. He may not say much there either.

That's the problem. We don't really know this version of Superman. Many of the complaints are just people taking what little we do see him say and do, contrasting that with their personal idea of Superman, and flipping the fuck out when the two don't align.

They really need to give this Superman some agency. I'd argue that's more important than lightening him up. Even if you want Supes to be more of downer (or just more introspective), you have to make us understand him and his point of view.

 

[Boke1879]

Yea they really need to let Cavill release some of his charm that I see him have in interviews.

You let him do that and interact with children and hell anyone as Superman and you've got yourself a winner.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

I dunno. There's a nebulous idea of who Superman is, compounded by how audiences unaware of who Wonder Woman was. So folks see a good-natured hero and go "she's/he's like Superman!" Nah. Gal Gadot is like Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman. Chris Evans is like Captain America in Winter Soldier. And to say Henry Cavill's Superman isn't Superman goes back to the stiflingly narrow image of him across the character's 78 year history.

That said, his Superman needs to lighten up, but it's always been a quality of the world, reflecting our society, and less the character. I mean, both his Superman and Clark Kent stories in BvS dealt with him wanting to help people while those in power tell him not to for political and business reasons.

It's also interesting to think about a character like Flash in the universe, who like Holland's Spider-Man, is a superhero born in a world with superheroes. They're able to bypass the growing paints of being the first. Plus we know Flash is influenced by Superman in JL.

This isn't really that. Most of the people I've seen and heard making that claim are absolutely knowledgeable about comics.

Yup. The big thing about The Wonder Woman movie. Is she is constantly stating how they HAVE to do something. "Steve we have to save these people" Or her whole monologue to the villain of the movie about He's wrong about humanity.

Like shit like that matters to people and I'm not going to lie. It made me tear up a few times.

I definitely understand what you're saying about this version of Supes. Of course he's going to save people. It's the easiest way to portray him. But I agree. he's way too conflicted. Like you said. Most of the choices he makes are in service to the narrative.

We saw it at the end of BvS when he says "This is my world" and he gave Batman hope by showing him there are still good men.

I'm hoping JL really pushes him in the Supes that does things by his principles and just generally lighten up a bit.

I'll take it a step further and say this is part of why I really love what I've seen of Homecoming.

Superman should be the king of that, and it doesn't matter that he's the first superhero in this universe (sorta? Cause Batman's been around, but, mnah), Clark is supposed to be this golden standard just off the strength of his upbringing (reason #487652 I never care to see Man of Steel again).

 

[broncobuster]

Look, Batman has spent the better part of his film career getting upstaged by the villains in his movie.

He just wanted a chance to do that to someone else's movie!

Next time Batman wants the spotlight fighting Doomsday or Steppenwolf, Supes should let him have it. Yelling "head movement" on the sidelines.

YUP. Cavill had something like 38 lines of dialog in BvS... That's not nearly enough for a character to state motivation and have really great character moments (or at least more than one).

Give the man some dialog and let him act. Cavill is a super charming dude. When I saw Man from UNCLE I was like,"Why am I not seeing him be like this?"

Speaking of Man from UNCLE, apparently Armie Hammer said they're making another one. Thought that movie did poorly in the box office, but maybe not as poor as King Arthur.

 

[Future Foundation]

Next time Batman wants the spotlight fighting Doomsday or Steppenwolf, Supes should let him have it. Yelling "head movement" on the sidelines.

Clark: CLIINCH! CLIINCH!

Bruce: *gets KTFO'd by Steppenwolf*

Clark: NO!

 

[Boke1879]

The thing is. It's ok to question yourself. Hell if I was Superman I'd do the same shit.

Why am I doing all this when the people don't appreciate it etc etc.

But they've never had him rise up the the moment. We saw a glimpse of it in BvS when he killed Doomsday. But he HAD to do that and sacrifice himself. That's a start.

But we still don't know much about him.

 

[a916]

I think the "You are my world" line was Clark realising what he is and is supposed to do... Lois is his ground. Which stands in stark contrast to the vision Batman has where he loses her. DC kind of has a built in reason to almost reboot-refresh him when he comes back. Same with Batman, Superman inspires Batman (as he clearly states at the end of the movie)

Look, Batman has spent the better part of his film career getting upstaged by the villains in his movie.

He just wanted a chance to do that to someone else's movie!

Haha, I just realized this is the case for the better parts of the Dark Knight trilogy.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

The thing is. It's ok to question yourself. Hell if I was Superman I'd do the same shit.

Why am I doing all this when the people don't appreciate it etc etc.

But they've never had him rise up the the moment. We saw a glimpse of it in BvS when he killed Doomsday. But he HAD to do that and sacrifice himself. That's a start.

But we still don't know much about him.

No the fuck he did not lmao

I'll never forgive him picking up a kryptonite spear that he knows weakens him when he can hand it to the very capable woman who is not only obviously super strong, but clearly knows her way around weapons lmfao.

He died because Snyder and co. wanted him to, and it never even begins to feel like there's another reason within the story.

 

[Inferno313]

Haha, I just realized this is the case for the better parts of the Dark Knight trilogy.

Really, The Dark Knight trilogy is better about it than the 90s series. Even amongst the general pop, it was a common opinion to hear people say that those movies were worth watching for the villains, not for Batman.

 

[Boke1879]

No the fuck he did not lmao

I'll never forgive him picking up a kryptonite spear that he knows weakens him when he can hand it to the very capable woman who is not only obviously super strong, but clearly knows her way around weapons lmfao.

He died because Snyder and co. wanted him to, and it never even begins to feel like there's another reason within the story.

I mean we can chalk up a lot of things to what the director wants.


I'll appreciate the fact that he did take the burden upon himself. I mean WW could have also gotten herself stabbed by Doomsday herself and then she'd be dead.

 

[Inferno313]

Man, feels like we're overdue for some kind of "leak" or rumor. I'm high on post-WW hype! I wanna read some 4Chan nonsense!

 

[Dead]

Superman is all about letting others do the job rather than himself. Yeah.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

I mean we can chalk up a lot of things to what the director wants.


I'll appreciate the fact that he did take the burden upon himself. I mean WW could have also gotten herself stabbed by Doomsday herself and then she'd be dead.

I'm assuming the stab only happened because the kryptonite. But fine, maybe he didn't realize how resilient Diana is, he'd only just kinda, barely met her. Sure.

 

[broncobuster]

Another thing about Wonder Woman, even if Mr. Snyder isn't up for directing another DCEU movie when he's ready, I hope him and Debora Snyder stay on as producers and to help shepherd the universe. Whatever misgivings I have about his work as a storyteller, I like where his head is at with the properties and in helping directors like Patty Jenkins make her movie.

Like, I wonder if the Snyders were producers and more involved with Suicide Squad, they'd be able to curb nonsense like the studio handing it off to a trailer company.

Haha, I just realized this is the case for the better parts of the Dark Knight trilogy.

I remember at the time people talked about Batman Begins as the first Batman movie truly about Batman.

 

[ReiGun]

Superman is all about letting others do the job rather than himself. Yeah.

Plus, Wonder Woman was very clearly holding Doomsday down while Clark charged him. What, was he supposed to take the lasso and potentially let Diana get murked instead?

If we want to talk about "why didn't this hero let someone else tag in," why didn't Batman go get the spear instead of Lois? He was doing fuck all against Doomsday.

 

[Inferno313]

Superman is all about letting others do the job rather than himself. Yeah.

Yeah, that's one minor criticism I've never liked. "Why didn't he just let Wonder Woman kill Doomsday"

Not only doesn't it fit his character, but the spear is 10 feet from him. He's got a clear path to Doomsday, Wonder Woman and Batman finally have a momentary handle on restraining him and he's supposed to... what? Be all: "Yo wondy, let's tradsies! I'll hold the lasso and you grab the spear. Quick!"

 

[a916]

Yeah, that's one minor criticism I've never liked. "Why didn't he just let Wonder Woman kill Doomsday"

Not only doesn't it fit his character, but the spear is 10 feet from him. He's got a clear path to Doomsday, Wonder Woman and Batman finally have a momentary handle on restraining him and he's supposed to... what? Be all: "Yo wondy, let's tradsies! I'll hold the lasso and you grab the spear. Quick!"

Yeah I don't get it either, Wonder Woman is clearly holding Doomsday back and it isn't until Superman punctures him that he finally escapes the lasso (or the force on the halfwall breaks)

 

[Ross61]

I really love how Wonder Woman touched on

Spoiler

PTSD with Charlie.

 

[broncobuster]

Batman bounced when he realized he'd get murdered in that fight. His big action moment in that scene was literally running away from Doomsday.

 

[Wingfan19]

Batman bounced when he realized he'd get murdered in that fight. His big action moment in that scene was literally running away from Doomsday.

Hey man, he had to get clear enough to fire that last Kryponite shell at Doomsday to weaken him enough for Diana to lasso him and Clark to stab him. So he kinda helped, kinda.

 

[a916]

Hey man, he had to get clear enough to fire that last Kryponite shell at Doomsday to weaken him enough for Diana to lasso him and Clark to stab him. So he kinda helped, kinda.

 

[broncobuster]

 

[Broken Joystick]

Either additional photography started, Cavill spent $100k to own the suit, or it's an old photo,

 

[MugiwaraCole]

Plus, Wonder Woman was very clearly holding Doomsday down while Clark charged him. What, was he supposed to take the lasso and potentially let Diana get murked instead?

If we want to talk about "why didn't this hero let someone else tag in," why didn't Batman go get the spear instead of Lois? He was doing fuck all against Doomsday.

Don't do that. Batman is a mortal lmfao (what's wrong with Clark taking the lasso? Not feasible? Mnah).

Regardless, the death was empty as fuck. If it hadn't been, I doubt I'd be so hung up on this nitpicky bit lol

 

[Boke1879]

Batman bounced when he realized he'd get murdered in that fight. His big action moment in that scene was literally running away from Doomsday.

Fam was literally a ghost until Doomsday looked at him as was like "you're still fucking here?"

 

[jackdoe]

Fam was literally a ghost until Doomsday looked at him as was like "you're still fucking here?"

That was one thing I appreciated about the fight. None of that bullshit Superman/Batman Jeph Loeb nonsense where he goes fisticuffs with Darkseid and suffers only broken ribs.

 

[MisterHero]

god i can't wait for the action in justice league

GIVE IT TO ME NOW

 

[a916]

Fam was literally a ghost until Doomsday looked at him as was like "you're still fucking here?"

I laughed too hard at this.

 

[Ashhong]

holy shit hahahaha

You are all going to eat crow when Superman comes out in JL. Snyder has already said over and over how it's a three arc series for Superman. He 100% will be the Superman that people want. There might not be time to be showing him saving random civilians or anything, but his leadership and heart in the final battle will be there. You'll see. You'll ALL SEE

Don't do that. Batman is a mortal lmfao (what's wrong with Clark taking the lasso? Not feasible? Mnah).

Regardless, the death was empty as fuck. If it hadn't been, I doubt I'd be so hung up on this nitpicky bit lol

Seems to be the other reason around. Death was empty to you because you are being nitpicky. Like others have said, Superman would never let someone else put themselves in danger like that. Diana was busy holding Doomsday down, he had no choice.

 

[Vyer]

Greenwald on The Watch podcast described Geoff Johns as having become "the de facto head of the DC cinematic universe' during their WW discussion. He talked about meeting him at an event earlier this year and talking to him about the movies. He said that Johns was completely respectful to the movies that were out and had nothing but good things to say about Snyder, but he told him that Wonder Woman 'would be a turning point.'

Really curious how much Johns guides things now and going forward

The thing is. It's ok to question yourself. Hell if I was Superman I'd do the same shit.

Why am I doing all this when the people don't appreciate it etc etc.

But they've never had him rise up the the moment. We saw a glimpse of it in BvS when he killed Doomsday. But he HAD to do that and sacrifice himself. That's a start.

But we still don't know much about him.

Which is kinda true, and kinda ridiculous considering he's headlined two movies now. Hopefully with everything that's happened the Supes that emerges is a little more fully formed.

 

[strafer]

 

[MugiwaraCole]

Seems to be the other reason around. Death was empty to you because you are being nitpicky. Like others have said, Superman would never let someone else put themselves in danger like that. Diana was busy holding Doomsday down, he had no choice.

Yeah…no. Kinda clearly stated the death was empty aside from that like a page back. Didn't even bring up this "issue" that I know is nitpicky till someone else mentioned it.

Nice attempt, though.

 

[Boke1879]

Greenwald on The Watch podcast described Geoff Johns as having become "the de facto head of the DC cinematic universe' during their WW discussion. He talked about meeting him at an event earlier this year and talking to him about the movies. He said that Johns was completely respectful to the movies that were out and had nothing but good things to say about Snyder, but he told him that Wonder Woman 'would be a turning point.'

Really curious how much Johns guides things now and going forward




Which is kinda true, and kinda ridiculous considering he's headlined two movies now. Hopefully with everything that's happened the Supes that emerges is a little more fully formed.

I wonder how much his hand is on JL? Or the reshoots for that matter.

But yea it's shouldn't be any surprise his hands are going to be on Aquaman, Batman, Flash, MoS 2, Batgirl, Sirens and the WW sequel.

 

[Raptor]

The thing is. It's ok to question yourself. Hell if I was Superman I'd do the same shit.

Why am I doing all this when the people don't appreciate it etc etc.

But they've never had him rise up the the moment. We saw a glimpse of it in BvS when he killed Doomsday. But he HAD to do that and sacrifice himself. That's a start.

But we still don't know much about him.

Thats it, no more, next time Supes has to be confident, no more doubts no more fears, no more emo stuff, full on Superman.

If not I will be pissed.

 

[broncobuster]

What's interesting is Wonder Woman was before Johns & Berg got their new roles. Although Patty and Geoff worked to write additional scenes towards the end. Again, I feel like Wonder Woman fits in with the tone and aesthetic of MoS and BvS, but handled by a better storyteller. So whatever their influence, I'm glad they're unafraid to keep in that direction. It give me hope they'll let Matt Reeves do what he does on Batman.

 

[tim1138]

What's interesting is Wonder Woman was before Johns & Berg got their new roles. Although Patty and Geoff worked to write additional scenes towards the end. Again, I feel like Wonder Woman fits in with the tone and aesthetic of MoS and BvS, but handled by a better storyteller. So whatever their influence, I'm glad they're unafraid to keep in that direction. It give me hope they'll let Matt Reeves do what he does on Batman.

Johns was on set during filming of Wonder Woman pretty regularly though.

 

[Boke1879]

What's interesting is Wonder Woman was before Johns & Berg got their new roles. Although Patty and Geoff worked to write additional scenes towards the end. Again, I feel like Wonder Woman fits in with the tone and aesthetic of MoS and BvS, but handled by a better storyteller. So whatever their influence, I'm glad they're unafraid to keep in that direction. It give me hope they'll let Matt Reeves do what he does on Batman.

I honestly feel the solo movies for this universe will be better received than the event films from here on out. Unless you get a good story teller to handle said even film.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

What's interesting is Wonder Woman was before Johns & Berg got their new roles. Although Patty and Geoff worked to write additional scenes towards the end. Again, I feel like Wonder Woman fits in with the tone and aesthetic of MoS and BvS, but handled by a better storyteller. So whatever their influence, I'm glad they're unafraid to keep in that direction. It give me hope they'll let Matt Reeves do what he does on Batman.

Disagree with the tone bit, but the aesthetic with a better storyteller? Absolutely. (They gotta chill on the slow motion though lmao)

 

[strafer]

Time to post some porn.

 

[broncobuster]

Johns was on set during filming of Wonder Woman pretty regularly though.

Yeah. He was always involved, like how he was helping write the Batman script*. Him and Berg just didn't get their new positions until Wonder Woman was already filming. I'm certainly happy with Johns involved in a larger capacity going forward. Just hoping Berg is a Kyle Rayner fanboy to balance him out.


*old Batman script? Soon I suppose Reeves can talk about what's going on there.

 

[Odoul]

Time to post some porn.

I LOVE the way the action looks in these movies that Man of Steel set.

Smallville
No Man's Land
Doomsday fight.
The German Hangar.

Sometimes it's almost like a documentary/found footage look where the camera can't quite keep up with the object of what it's filming.

I've never given two pumps of piss about the Flash. But thinking about the heat he better bring in Justice League...

 

[duckroll]

I'm assuming the stab only happened because the kryptonite. But fine, maybe he didn't realize how resilient Diana is, he'd only just kinda, barely met her. Sure.

JL should have a scene where Diana goes "You could have let me do it you know" and Supes should reply "Sorry, I thought you were like him." and look towards Bruce.

 

[Ninjimbo]

What's interesting is Wonder Woman was before Johns & Berg got their new roles. Although Patty and Geoff worked to write additional scenes towards the end. Again, I feel like Wonder Woman fits in with the tone and aesthetic of MoS and BvS, but handled by a better storyteller. So whatever their influence, I'm glad they're unafraid to keep in that direction. It give me hope they'll let Matt Reeves do what he does on Batman.

Don't know about that storyteller bit, but I do agree that the film has that Snyder flair.

Spoiler

When Diana is making her way to No Man's Land and she's seeing all the casualties of War, that felt Snyder-esque to me along with the gassing of the village. I've felt that his movies are challenging the hero's ideals and asking what it really means to be one to their audience. Some good shit if you ask me.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

JL should have a scene where Diana goes "You could have let me do it you know" and Supes should reply "Sorry, I thought you were like him." and look towards Bruce.

OMG yes

 

[Ahasverus]

Time to post some porn.

Those cape animations were fantastic.

 

[b&jy77VjiKn$#F]

howling

 

[Raptor]

Those cape animations were fantastic.

Everything is fantastic in that movie

 

[Ahasverus]

Oh no you didn't

 

[Boke1879]

anecdotal. But I'm thinking Tuesday is going to be another good day for this movie.

All the showings today in my theater have been full or near it. Probably due to the ticket promotions they have today.

 

[jrush64]

lool. That is just plain mean. lol.