I'm surprised that collectively, people care more about cosmetic items in a collector's edition than they do about weapon changes that actually effect the way the game plays for everyone, yes. "Blatantly fucking over customers" is just embarassingly ridiculous hyperbole when you sit for a moment and think about what people are actually missing out on.
Destiny - Weapon Tuning 2.0
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I'm surprised that collectively, people care more about cosmetic items in a collector's edition than they do about weapon changes that actually effect the way the game plays for everyone, yes. "Blatantly fucking over customers" is just embarassingly ridiculous hyperbole when you sit for a moment and think about what people are actually missing out on.
I'm ok with everything but the ice breaker nerf. It was already close to irrelevant anyway.
I only use ice breaker to shoot atheon's belly button. 8 seconds each bullet is overkill.
It's just sad that i'll never have the chance to use a gjallarhorn in all its glory.
But whatever. Fourth horseman is my favorite pve weapon now. 10% less damage won't make much of a difference.
I only use ice breaker to shoot atheon's belly button. 8 seconds each bullet is overkill.
It's just sad that i'll never have the chance to use a gjallarhorn in all its glory.
But whatever. Fourth horseman is my favorite pve weapon now. 10% less damage won't make much of a difference.
The majority of this list is busted in PvP, like it needed a hardcore nerf for PvP to ever be playable again. I'm not quite sure what's up with the Black Hammer nerf but that's really the only thing on that list that's debatable.
LastGamer84
Member
If they're going to increase the recharge time, they should add something to the weapon to make up for it. But as others have said, Bungie is essentially doing this to force upgrades to what will no doubt be even more powerful exotics in TTK.
They dug themselves into a hole with the etheric light upgrade system...what's the incentive to use new weapons when the old ones with great abilities can be upgraded? And once they realized what they had done, this was the inevitable result. It's not right, and I have no doubt that the expansion after TTK will feature nerfs to those weapons as well.
The cycle will go - New Exotics>New Content>Nerf Exotics>New Exotics - and so on. They think they've found a solution in this, but all it's done is anger the player base. Exotics should always be amazing and have unique abilities, all this does is cheapen them.
Part of the problem is also PVP, but as I stated earlier the only way to solve that is to force players to have a default loadout in a match with better weapons on the field - ala Halo. Keep your gear for the Trials and Iron Banner, use standard weapons in Crucible.
Or they could accept the fact that the PVP is and always has been garbage and just ignore it, but that's just my opinion.
Stallion Dan
Member
Destiny PVP is noobish with the huge aim assist and hit delay anyway. The crappy balancing is the least of the issues.
Who's using IB to deliver constant DPS though? When people make a calculation like that they are assuming that you would be delivering constant DPS with it and having zero downtime. Most big encounters are going to have downtime where you aren't using the IceBreaker and are passively regenerating ammo.
I always felt the strength of the IceBreaker was that I could use it to take out nuisance trash enemies or quickly bring down Solar shields, and not feel like I'm wasting special ammo on low-level baddies.
On bosses it feels like there's rarely enough time to fire off a full clip before you have to take cover or deal with adds.....so regneration happens during cover or an add phase.
Here's the actual issue - the fanbase. So many people whine and cry that they couldn't use their 300 VoG gear or that it was obsolete and outdated and they wanted to continue to have an excuse to trot out Fatebringer for every encounter. So Bungie relented.
Etheric light is actually a really good system in the end, but it promotes laziness and safety. Especially now with them nerfing newer weapons while letting you hold on to your older, broken weapon while keeping them up to date. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Bungie is trying to do that to keep the fanbase appeased.
TTK is going to be a super huge mess, but I wouldn't expect our current exotics to be totally outmoded until the sequel drops next year. Then they can wipe the slate clean and start over, hopefully after learning some lessons from the moderate disaster Year 1 has been overall in terms of game design.
Embarrassing is attempting to boil down what Bungie was attempting to do to being about shaders. It wasn't what they were screwing their best customers over for that made people mad. It's that they were doing it in the first place. And not just that they were doing it, they sent Luke Smith out to be an asshole about it and essentially taunt consumers.
Etheric Light was a good idea, the problem is it was so easy to get that you could basically ascend anything you wanted no problem. I have like 40 etheric light sitting in my vault doing nothing atm.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
That's a bit of a generalization, isn't it? The IB nerf is just....bad. Through and through. It doesn't matter whether you use it alot or not, it's the fact that it's a huge nerf to IB when that weapon isn't really a problem.
I've said many times Bungie is too slow with balance updates. Light level has nothing to do with the videos I posted as they were made before TDB/HoW respectively. With the strikes the problem is Gjallarhorn's extreme damage advantage over other options.
There's much more balancing left to do. If I'm still playing I hope it doesn't take another six months after Taken King releases. Dragon's Breath needs a massive buff or overhaul. Dreg's Promise is garbage. Bladedancer needs a modest PvE orb boost.
Now that would have been an awful change. What makes BH unique is being able to sustain precision shots. Turning it into a poor man's Icebreaker would have been disappointing. It would be another Hunger of Crota.
Watching one DestinyGAF regular after another calling it quits is just hilarious.
It happened after TDB, it'll happen after HoW. With so long between content updates the game just gets dull, I'm sure we'll all be back in September.
The hand cannon Exotics needed to be nerfed they were just too powerful in pvp.
The shotgun pvp part is misplaced they need to focus on their pvp side.
The exotic sniper nerf is unfair to Ice breaker because that recharge rate is already slow now it may be too ammo starved to use in pvp or in pve fights.
The fusion rifle nerf is insane because no one was using them because of their charge times and lack of accuracy. Why use those when shotguns can kill you faster and at almost the same range.
Auto rife's needed this buff because they were useless.
Now i know the gally was op (i never got one) but boss fights will take way to long now without it and i have no clue what will replace it.
The shotgun pvp part is misplaced they need to focus on their pvp side.
The exotic sniper nerf is unfair to Ice breaker because that recharge rate is already slow now it may be too ammo starved to use in pvp or in pve fights.
The fusion rifle nerf is insane because no one was using them because of their charge times and lack of accuracy. Why use those when shotguns can kill you faster and at almost the same range.
Auto rife's needed this buff because they were useless.
Now i know the gally was op (i never got one) but boss fights will take way to long now without it and i have no clue what will replace it.
Watching people have conniption fits over cosmetic items will be embarrassing no matter the game, no matter the developer. These weapon nerfs are at least a justifiable source of rage, rather than coming from some weird sense of entitlement that certain Year 1 players have.
Those kids "delete their characters" every other week.
Some people were using Black Hammer to deliver a massive DPS burst by stringing 15-20 sniper headshots in a row, but others were just using it to have nearly-infinite ammo. I think those were both defining characteristics of the weapon.....they've simply just killed the infinite ammo aspect of it now though.
It seems like a strange decision to me, since with other changes like the Gjallarhorn nerf it seems like they are trying to swerve away from situations where bosses can be quickly burned with massive burst DPS. You'd think they would have leaned a little more heavily on the burst capability of the weapon.
RocketRacoon
Member
Farewell to those who quit Destiny because in 2 months a gun will do less damage.
You won't be missed!
On Topic - Almost all of the nerfs were 100% needed for Destiny to continue to evolve and grow. The boss killer nerfs (Ghorn, Black Hammer, Ice Breaker) can be contested, but won't be the hugest deal. Any encounter that was done with 3 horns could be done slightly slower with 3 hunger, etc.
I'm very excited that Auto Rifles are back in the mix, and that Scout Rifles are getting a slight bump up.
No mention of LMG's is pretty strange though, and a further Fusion Rifle nerf is a true bummer for me.
You won't be missed!
On Topic - Almost all of the nerfs were 100% needed for Destiny to continue to evolve and grow. The boss killer nerfs (Ghorn, Black Hammer, Ice Breaker) can be contested, but won't be the hugest deal. Any encounter that was done with 3 horns could be done slightly slower with 3 hunger, etc.
I'm very excited that Auto Rifles are back in the mix, and that Scout Rifles are getting a slight bump up.
No mention of LMG's is pretty strange though, and a further Fusion Rifle nerf is a true bummer for me.
It's good to take breaks. I've been prepping my characters to come back for TTK. Maxing out glimmer and rep etc.
LastGamer84
Member
I know the videos were made before HoW (the second obviously was made during TDB since you couldn't fight Crotoa before then). My point was that the content you posted was already trivialized with the release of HoW due to the higher light level. Slow balance update or not, the change for Gally has more to due with PoE, not the strikes/raids. Even without Gjallarhorn higher lvl players could handle either raid with ease at this point.
Bungie has plenty of time to test the changes before TTK launches; they have no one to blame but themselves if it isn't balanced. Again, the cycle of nerfs will continue since they backed themselves into a corner with the etheric light system. Unless they get rid of it with TTK (which will cause further backlash) - then the problem won't just go away. The current policy of "release gear nerf later" trivializes character progression because the drop you received may be rendered less useful later on. Exotics are cheapened, balance is still a distant dream, and any sense of accomplishment in earning those weapons is marginalized.
I take slight issue with this. As a fairly casual player I've gotten a few Etheric Lights from IB but that's it. If you have a regular fireteam with a lot of time to put into PoE and OoT then yeah, I am sure Etheric Light is easy but for the rest of us filthy casuals it most certainly is not.
I'm ok with almost all of this except for Icebreaker (every encounter that you could use IB on before you still can now, it will just take longer. The only thing Bungie nerfed was the fun!) and the fusion rifle stuff.
Fusion rifles are in a weird place. I don't know what to do about them but they seem a little bit useless right now. Their range isn't much better than a shotgun but with the added downside of the charge time and the shot spread. I want to use them and still do for very specific encounters but overall they seem like they are getting weaker and worse rather than stronger and better.
The most unfortunate thing about all of this is having to wait til mid September for it to go live. That's almost exactly two months away.
Edit - Hawkmoon will still be my go-to primary in PVP. I find it more fun than Thorn or TLW even if it is less effective!
GuitarAtomik
Member
Loooong timmmee coming. Curious to see where this game's meta is in a couple months (when I have time to play again).
veloxStrix
Banned
This thread is hilarious. Every Destiny thread is full of such ridiculous hyperbole and contradictions.
Up until now, everyone was complaining about Thorn and The Last Word being the only viable weapons in PvP. Now they are going to be useless! Before we even know how exactly these changes will affect gameplay.
Most of these nerfs also have buffs added. The only real nerfs are to Gjallrhorn, which needed it anyways, and Ice Breaker, which is baffling but it won't kill me.
Up until now, everyone was complaining about Thorn and The Last Word being the only viable weapons in PvP. Now they are going to be useless! Before we even know how exactly these changes will affect gameplay.
Most of these nerfs also have buffs added. The only real nerfs are to Gjallrhorn, which needed it anyways, and Ice Breaker, which is baffling but it won't kill me.
I've already pulled Hard Light, No Land Beyond, and Dragon's Breath out of my Vault to start leveling up for TTK. Auto rifles getting a buff makes me erect.
Yeah, people are being silly. I'm actually looking forward to using the Thorn in PvE for once. Wonder how much damage I can stack with Thorn DoT + burning 'nades + viking funeral during Radiance.
I still think Thorn will be pretty effective in the mid-range in PvP too. Only it'll be more "fair"
TLW will still wreck people up close, it'll just stop beating out scout rifles at ranges it never should have been winning in the first place. I actually killed a sniper on the new Mars map just yesterday by ADS and pacing my shots. It was pretty ridiculous.
The Icebreaker nerf seems to be trying to encourage a more hectic time when using it, but it's moot since most people will just find a safe hiding place where they can just sit back and snipe without worry longer reload or not.
I think the problem is that they always exchange one set of weapons dominating the meta with another. Could easily see a PVP meta after this patch where Suros, Red Death and Messenger/Hopscotch Pilgrim dominate.
Part of the issue is that these aren't balance changes, they're nerfs. They aren't balancing the meta, they're simply creating a new one by making existing guns borderline useless.
It's the Riot strategy. Nerf a champion into the ground for awhile to get people to try new champions (and better yet, the newest one that costs more RP) and then bring it back months later (maybe.) Works for champions that you can get without relying on RNG. For guns that people put hours upon hours into getting from random chance, not so much.
Obliterator
Member
Ballerhorn getting nerfered is nothing but a good thing imo. 1 gun shouldn't run the game
Glendemonium
Member
Maybe I should take this time to level up Hard Light and Dragon's Breath... y'know just in case.
Same here. Because it comes out around the same time as the limited edition console. I'll need to transfer it to a new HD.
I'm certainly speculating on their motives, but you're trying too hard, and I have their past behavior (Nightfalls week one in the new DLC?) to support my speculation. Just try not to be surprised when Taken King has some new weapons that are suddenly better than the newly nerfed ones. That's all.
And on the second point, jesus, nobody said the balancing costed anything. Maybe read properly before calling people liars?
Power creep becomes a pretty big problem, particularly in a game with a large PVP component. Buff everything and suddenly everyone is getting 1-shotted.
But yes, I do wish they could simply make new awesome weapons rather than simply ruining the old ones. I think their original plan was to just naturally let old weapons die off as new gear with higher damage was introduced......but players have demanded the ability to upgrade damage on their old stuff, so now they have to deal with balance issues on old weapons.
geordiemp
Member
God what a load of absolute tripe about huge impact...dont know whether to laugh or cry...Do you actually play destiny at all ?
You can get a elfrit spear with 6 rounds and firefly...thats got 24 bullets in the mag, and surplus so that I pick up double ammo and is >>>>>> Icebreaker. Elfrit explosions are even bigger.
They are upping to 18 spare ammo for Crota sniper...
Why on earth do people still use icebreaker other than the heavy ammo glitch ? The only time I use IB is Crota but now I just synth and cannot be bothered to fire ny handgun bullets of.
The only reason people use IB or have any need to is to cheese from a cheese spot..No other reason....Glad they did it, its boooring...
Tell me what use Icebreaker is again ?
NullPointer
Member
At least for PvE maybe the solution is to remove those cheese spots and the need for them. Using any weapon from a cheese spot is boring.
I don't know of a good answer for PvP balance short of just not having weapons that straddle both modes, but that ain't happening.
The evil bean counter in me would put out balance patches that favor DLC exotics, and then re-balancing them just before the release of the next DLC.
geordiemp
Member
Yup, in 1 week after the patch everyone will work out the new best guns, like every other shooter in existence.
Would not take much to nerf the cheese spots I agree. But dont agree with IB nerf moans, its not even in the top 5 snipers.
They have actually buffed thorn for PVE with 5 stacks, gun is now better for crowd control with its piercing and poison on 5 targets......but nerfs its PVP
Like every other person with legit complaints about Bungie and the game, I've never played a second of the game. You caught me!
wsoxfan1214
Banned
Nerfed
Good. Shit was broken in PvP. I shouldn't be dead before I even realize I'm being fired at.
geordiemp
Member
Maybe you are great at it and been to Mercury more than me.... and if you are do you really still use Icebreaker for anything other than heavy glitch ?
Oh and running Crota if no Mida...
I use it all the time in POE 34 and 35. But yeah you're right, never played it.
NullPointer
Member
Yep. I was dogshit in the Crucible until I got that weapon, and then I became a beast (relatively speaking). Its totally bonkers how much of a difference it made.
None of these nerfs come as a shock. Thorn will still kick ass because of the psychological effect of sizzling an enemy player, even if the DOT did no damage on its own. ARs needed a buff too, but that seems like a hard thing to nail correctly, considering its spamming potential.
I just spent AGES getting my Ill Will build (tried many Leg guns, alternatives since I was a Thorn user awaiting a nerf), and what the fuck?
Less magazine size for Handcannons?
I prefer my Ill Will over the Thorn actually, funnily enough. I haven't lost a Rumble match in ages.
With Rifled Barrel it has 5 bullets. If they lower the size I need to switch to Small Bore otherwise 4 or 3 bullets is too little.
Man I have everything in this game now but them making us wanna reroll shit is not fun.
Less magazine size for Handcannons?
I prefer my Ill Will over the Thorn actually, funnily enough. I haven't lost a Rumble match in ages.
With Rifled Barrel it has 5 bullets. If they lower the size I need to switch to Small Bore otherwise 4 or 3 bullets is too little.
Man I have everything in this game now but them making us wanna reroll shit is not fun.
Kor of Memory
Member
People saying the Icebreaker is going to be worthless probably don't use an IceBreaker.
The average IceBreaker user uses the IB in a way that they are staying way back and killing enemies off from the distance and avoiding proper encounters. Because they don't need ammo, they just sit and wait and keep killing and keep avoiding what would be considered "Normal Gameplay".
After the patch, you know what this average IB user is going to do? The exact same thing. It'll just take them longer. They're still going to stand way in the back and just wait for their ammo to regenerate.
Also, who keeps talking about how long it takes to refill an entire clip? Like, why is that a thing we are talking about. The IB lets you fire no matter how full your clip is. It's not like if you emptied the thing, you can't touch it again for the 48 seconds. In fact, you'll likely still be able to fire 7 consecutive shots with it, despite it only having a charge of 6.
Long story short: It's trivializing content in a different way, but it's still trivializing it.
The average IceBreaker user uses the IB in a way that they are staying way back and killing enemies off from the distance and avoiding proper encounters. Because they don't need ammo, they just sit and wait and keep killing and keep avoiding what would be considered "Normal Gameplay".
After the patch, you know what this average IB user is going to do? The exact same thing. It'll just take them longer. They're still going to stand way in the back and just wait for their ammo to regenerate.
Also, who keeps talking about how long it takes to refill an entire clip? Like, why is that a thing we are talking about. The IB lets you fire no matter how full your clip is. It's not like if you emptied the thing, you can't touch it again for the 48 seconds. In fact, you'll likely still be able to fire 7 consecutive shots with it, despite it only having a charge of 6.
Long story short: It's trivializing content in a different way, but it's still trivializing it.
Yeah, that's what I don't really get. People say "Oh no, this is a 30% DPS nerf to IceBreaker!"
Well yeah, but the DPS on the gun was already not that great anyway. The entire compromise of the gun was that you take a massive DPS hit in exchange for infinite ammo. If you want DPS you should not be rocking an IceBreaker anyhow. I've always tended to think of it as a mostly situational weapon.
I will be interested to see if No Land Beyond becomes a kind of stand-in for IceBreaker....it seems unclear to me whether the buffs they've given it are going to be that useful though.
Sword Of Doom
Member
It's still makes the weapon less useful. Hard to argue against that. I don't understand how this is ok?
And my original reply to you wasn't about DPS. It was a reply to you saying 3seconds is not that big of a deal but it is. If the wait was one minute then yeah 3 seconds is nothing but it was originally 5 seconds
Diablohead
Member
Then everything becomes 1 hit killers and all becomes (even more) annoying.
Then let the Wolfpack perk be on other weapons.
They made it elite by making it the only weapon in the game with the perk. Can't even get it through reforging, so it's meant to be unique.