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[Glass Rebel]

So is MGSeacewalker also a lower product in your eyes because everyone sees themselves as Snake?

I'm not really familiar with how the multiplayer in Peace Walker is framed but I don't see why my opinion on Peacewalker matters either.

 

[Wiktor]

It's ridiculous for me to want to play as a girl in a game's co-op mode?

In this particular game with this particular co-op mechanics? Yes.

 

[Zing]

I feel the developer should be able to use their resources how they see fit. No one is forcing anyone to buy the game. If the game only gave the option to be a woman, I wouldn't care one bit. The game also doesn't give the option to play as a child, an amputee, an albino, or an obese Chinese guy with one eye. I'm not going to suggest or "call out" that they should have spent time adding these superficial features.

 

[Sianos]

Because gender inclusiveness isn't a priority of the franchise in the first place. And it doesn't have to be. Some AC games we play as a male, some games we play as a female, some games we played as a baby, and some games we played as a decrepit old man. But people acting like this series have never represented females or minorities are either misinformed or completely ignoring the history of the series.

That's the point, the fact that "gender inclusiveness isn't a priority of the franchise in the first place" especially in the case of this co-op avatar projection is a problem, which is why people are discussing it.

The problem is not with the single-player, its with the multiplayer and the attitude towards including women into the avatar projection as not being worth the effort.

 

[ab.aeterno]

As far as I can see that's what this entire thread is about. Never said they weren't. But if i think the criticisims/attacks/whatever are misguided then I am free to say that as well. Critiquing the lack of a female projection that doesn't affect the view the player has at all as a part of a co-op drop in to a single player campaign feels incredibly misguided to me combined with the fact of how crazy hard games are to make.

No, this entire thread is about disagreeing with the priorities or choices developers made. That doesn't mean they can't make the choices they want, it means we're disagreeing with those choices they made. The difference is so vast I'm not sure how you can equate the two; this isn't about stifling creative expression saying "you can't make games with straight white dudes," it's about saying "I don't agree with your decision to use a straight white dude." Disagreement isn't the same thing as forbidding something.

As for your second point, you and others keep missing that the root design decisions are the problem. You can't point to a decision they made and say "well obviously they can't accommodate this," while ignoring that they created the design problem that is impossible to accommodate. It's circular. You're using the base design problem to explain away complaints with subsequent ones, ignoring that the base design problem was of their own making and ultimately the issue. If they'd prioritized it from the beginning they would have designed around it.

 

[Sai-kun]

I feel the developer should be able to use their resources how they see fit. No one is forcing anyone to buy the game. If the game only gave the option to be a woman, I wouldn't care one bit. The game also doesn't give the option to play as a child, an amputee, an albino, or an obese Chinese guy with one eye. I'm not going to suggest or "call out" that they should have spent time adding these superficial features.

really happy for you

 

[Crossing Eden]

You're misreading people saying "Ubisoft could've done this" as "Ubisoft should/must do this."

They could've but it would be done POORLY. They don't have to the time to do it correctly. If I was a female I think i'd prefer something be done correctly instead of half assed due to time constraints. We're talking technology that doesn't exist yet in terms of what people are asking for.

 

[Azih]

It's ridiculous for me to want to play as a girl in a game's co-op mode?

In the case that the co-op mode is indistinguishable from the single player campaign the situation changes. If co-op was a separate mode then I would understand where you are coming from completely. I still understand where you are coming from but to change only the projection is a severe case of diminished returns.

 

[Cat Party]

No, this entire thread is about disagreeing with the priorities or choices developers made. That doesn't mean they can't make the choices they want, it means we're disagreeing with those choices they made. The difference is so vast I'm not sure how you can equate the two; this isn't about stifling creative expression saying "you can't make games with straight white dudes," it's about saying "I don't agree with your decision to use a straight white dude." Disagreement isn't the same thing as forbidding something.

As for your second point, you and others keep missing that the root design decisions are the problem. You can't point to a decision they made and say "well obviously they can't accommodate this," while ignoring that they created the design problem that is impossible to accommodate. It's circular. You're using the base design problem to explain away complaints with subsequent ones, ignoring that the base design problem was of their own making and ultimately the issue. If they'd prioritized it from the beginning they would have designed around it.

Damn fine post.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I feel the developer should be able to use their resources how they see fit. No one is forcing anyone to buy the game. If the game only gave the option to be a woman, I wouldn't care one bit. The game also doesn't give the option to play as a child, an amputee, an albino, or an obese Chinese guy with one eye. I'm not going to suggest or "call out" that they should have spent time adding these superficial features.

It's a video game. You can say it's superficial for it to exist if all you care about is living day to day.

They could've but it would be done POORLY. They don't have to the time to do it correctly. If I was a female I think i'd prefer something be done correctly instead of half assed due to time constraints. We're talking technology that doesn't exist yet in terms of what people are asking for.

The technology doesn't exist yet, huh?

It's not wrong for them to have made the decisions they made. For them to try to say "this isn't feasible" is making an excuse, an attempt to absolve them of direct responsibility on the matter. That's what people have a problem with.

 

[modeyv2]

Tbh, I really don't care about male or female. I'd play any if the game is good enough for me to buy it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

That's the point, the fact that "gender inclusiveness isn't a priority of the franchise in the first place" especially in the case of this co-op avatar projection is a problem, which is why people are discussing it.

The problem is not with the single-player, its with the multiplayer and the attitude towards including women into the avatar projection as not being worth the effort.

How is it worth the effort to include it when factually it would result in
-a lower quality product
-less polish on other aspects of the game
-a half assed female character due to time constraints
^ How is any of this worth the effort?

 

[JDSN]

I feel the developer should be able to use their resources how they see fit. No one is forcing anyone to buy the game. If the game only gave the option to be a woman, I wouldn't care one bit. The game also doesn't give the option to play as a child, an amputee, an albino, or an obese Chinese guy with one eye. I'm not going to suggest or "call out" that they should have spent time adding these superficial features.

Good. Dont.

 

[MagicWithEarvin]

I feel the developer should be able to use their resources how they see fit. No one is forcing anyone to buy the game. If the game only gave the option to be a woman, I wouldn't care one bit. The game also doesn't give the option to play as a child, an amputee, an albino, or an obese Chinese guy with one eye. I'm not going to suggest or "call out" that they should have spent time adding these superficial features.

It's perfectly fine for ANY developer to use their resources how they see fit, no male or female characters all they want. The thing is, the way they handled the question at hand regarding playable female characters in their upcoming games (which is honestly a valid question to ask the developers), is NOT fine.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm not really familiar with how the multiplayer in Peace Walker is framed but I don't see why my opinion on Peacewalker matters either.

Welp, simply put, everyone in Peace Walker sees themselves as Snake and other players as a different character. You said that that is apparently a lower product.

 

[Wiktor]

The problem is not with the single-player, its with the multiplayer and the attitude towards including women into the avatar projection as not being worth the effort.

Looking at this game I think it's very propable they've chosen this particular type of co-op because it was a lot cheaper and faster to make. And in this type of co-op including women really isn't worth the effort it would require, as you wouldn't even be able to play as that woman.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Looking at this game I think it's very propable they've chosen this particular type of co-op because it was a lot cheaper and faster to make. And in this type of co-op including women really isn't worth the effort it would require, as you wouldn't even be able to play as that woman.

.

 

[The Librarian]

In this particular game with this particular co-op mechanics? Yes.

Okay.

 

[figadapaura]

They could've but it would be done POORLY. They don't have to the time to do it correctly. If I was a female I think i'd prefer something be done correctly instead of half assed due to time constraints. We're talking technology that doesn't exist yet in terms of what people are asking for.

I'm pretty used to half-assed at this point. Something is better than nothing.

 

[Azih]

No, this entire thread is about disagreeing with the priorities or choices developers made. That doesn't mean they can't make the choices they want, it means we're disagreeing with those choices they made. The difference is so vast I'm not sure how you can equate the two; this isn't about stifling creative expression saying "you can't make games with straight white dudes," it's about saying "I don't agree with your decision to use a straight white dude." Disagreement isn't the same thing as forbidding something.

As for your second point, you and others keep missing that the root design decisions are the problem. You can't point to a decision they made and say "well obviously they can't accommodate this," while ignoring that they created the design problem that is impossible to accommodate. It's circular. You're using the base design problem to explain away complaints with subsequent ones, ignoring that the base design problem was of their own making and ultimately the issue. If they'd prioritized it from the beginning they would have designed around it.

1. Of course there's no forbidding going on. No one except Ubi bosses have the power to do that. But to say this sort of criticism doesn't stifle creative expression is not reasonable to my view. Self-censorship is a thing and it's a misdiagnosis of the real problem anyway.

2. Having a lead character of a specific gender will NEVER be a root decision problem to me. Arno is male. There's nothing wrong to me with writing a story that has one lead character who is of a specific gender.

 

[Sianos]

How is it worth the effort to include it when factually it would result in
-a lower quality product
-less polish on other aspects of the game
-a half assed female character due to time constraints
^ How is any of this worth the effort?

How would it factually result in a lower quality product to rerig some animations for the already existing female assassin NPC from a studio of literally over 9000 people? And those animations would serve as polish for the female assassin NPCs and female NPC design in general. And how do you know that it would be halfassed, other than the fact that it isn't a priority to you and you don't see the point in including a female character either?

Your circular arguments hold no weight here, your answers are demonstrating the exact reason why people are getting upset over this.

Welp, simply put, everyone in Peace Walker sees themselves as Snake and other players as a different character. You said that that is apparently a lower product.

Yes, if you cannot project yourself as a female character in the co-op mode then it is a lower product, unless the only options for co-op play are playable characters crucial to the narrative and it just happens that there are no playable female characters crucial to the narrative which would be entirely different from the Assassin's Creed multiplayer we are talking about in this game and therefore entirely irrelevant. Appeal to popularity is a terrible argument.

Another point: "Company X does it too!" is a terrible argument.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm pretty used to half-assed at this point. Something is better than nothing.

No, that's the problem. I don't want half-assed. I support feminism. I support female characters and great female character designs that aren't sexualized. I would like a female assassin to be the MC again, preferably in a Japanese setting. But I would never accept half-assed anything. Half-assed is worse than nothing because of the lack of passion or time. This is a new generation.

 

[Azih]

How would it factually result in a lower quality product to rerig some animations for the already existing female assassin NPC from a studio of literally over 9000 people?

You have no backing for this argument except complete speculation.

 

[Xplatformer]

I feel the developer should be able to use their resources how they see fit. No one is forcing anyone to buy the game. If the game only gave the option to be a woman, I wouldn't care one bit. The game also doesn't give the option to play as a child, an amputee, an albino, or an obese Chinese guy with one eye. I'm not going to suggest or "call out" that they should have spent time adding these superficial features.

I agree with you, but as a black male who has up until the past few years had to deal with every non-sports avatar looking nothing like me except for gender...i understand the outcry for representation.

In an ideal world every game would allow the user to customize the protagonist and the story would adapt to that selection.

Example...how would a black male lead "fit" in an Assassins Creed story told in 1400 Spain?

I dont have a problem with developers telling their stories the way they want to tell them.

 

[Oersted]

How is it worth the effort to include it when factually it would result in
-a lower quality product
-less polish on other aspects of the game
-a half assed female character due to time constraints
^ How is any of this worth the effort?

Invluding women would have resulted in a lower quality product?

 

[figadapaura]

No, that's the problem. I don't want half-assed. I support feminism. I support female characters and great female character designs that aren't sexualized. I would like a female assassin to be the MC again, preferably in a Japanese setting. But I would never accept half-assed anything. Half-assed is worse than nothing because of the lack of passion or time. This is a new generation.

You said, 'if I were a female...', you would feel a certain way when clearly that's how you actually feel as a male looking at the rest of your post. I was just giving you my opinion as an actual female.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Ubisoft not wanting to put anymore than the minimal amount of effort into an AC game? Well I never...

 

[Crossing Eden]

Yes, if you cannot project yourself as a female character in the co-op mode then it is a lower product

No it does not. Whether or not a female is playable in co-op has absolutely no bearing on the quality of the product are you kidding me? Unless it's in this case where a female in co-op would hinder the quality of the game because it would take up time and resources from other more crucial aspects of the game.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Are people looking for support of female characters because they don't feel immersed or because they just want choices? I only ask because even as a non-white male, how immersed I feel isn't dependent on character gender, but the actual gameplay mechanics.

 

[besada]

No it does not. Whether or not a female is playable in co-op has absolutely no bearing on the quality of the product are you kidding me?

It has no bearing on the quality of the product FOR YOU. It clearly does for other people.

 

[Stormhammer]

A game that is supposed to unify seems to actually be dividing us..

The problem is not with the single-player, its with the multiplayer and the attitude towards including women into the avatar projection as not being worth the effort.

Isn't the multiplayer basically the actual campaign just with different single player folks joining together? Are cutscenes and normal dialogue still the same whether or not people are playing with you?

 

[Sianos]

You have no backing for this argument except complete speculation.

How is it worth the effort to include it when factually it would result in
-a lower quality product
-less polish on other aspects of the game
-a half assed female character due to time constraints
^ How is any of this worth the effort?

My point is that claiming that including a female co-op character would result in a lower quality product is incredibly overdrawn speculation for such a large company, especially considering there is a female assassin model that could merely be polished up.

You can't say that I'm speculating that his speculation is speculation, especially since I'm bringing up the evidence of Ubisoft's ten teams that are working on the project and preexisting female assassin model as a point that this would not lower the quality of the overall game.

 

[shinobi602]

Phew, damn I'm glad I don't spend as much time on this as many do here...I couldn't care less what ethnicity or gender developers choose for their games. I play games for kicking back and relaxing, not for 'representation'. Just give me a fun game and let me have at it.

 

[Kinyou]

Well, it is to you. I think the way co-op is laid out with everyone thinking they're playing as Arno instead of their own character lowers the product. There are different ways to implement seamless co-op but Ubisoft chose this specific solution and have to deal with the consequences.

What ways exactly? I can only think of making every character custom but that would come with a lot of extra work and usually makes for a less developed character.

 

[Dragonborn]

But you appear as a different character to other players and can customize the appearance of what you appear as to other players, but not the gender.

It's a confusing system, but it works a lot like the secret bases in the third generation Pokemon games (which had an option for you to appear as a male or female NPC).

Ahh, I see now. Alright, in that case, I definitely see the issue. Seems I was co fused as to how it works

 

[JDSN]

I agree with you, but as a black male who has up until the past few years had to deal with every non-sports avatar looking nothing like me except for gender...i understand the outcry for representation.

In an ideal world every game would allow the user to customize the protagonist and the story would adapt to that selection.

Example...how would a black male lead "fit" in an Assassins Creed story told in 1400 Spain?

I dont have a problem with developers telling their stories the way they want to tell them.

I sure has hell can tell you how a black man would fit in this one.

 

[Azih]

especially considering there is a female assassin model that could merely be polished up.

As others have pointed out this is not how game development works. You can't just take a model from another game and 'merely polish it up' and drop it into another. Next you'll be talking about tightening up the graphics on level 3. And it also ignores the constraint of TIME, not money, not labour, but TIME. They work to incredibly tight deadlines.

 

[Oersted]

Well, nvm

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Phew, damn I'm glad I don't spend as much time on this as many do here...I couldn't care less what ethnicity or gender developers choose for their games. I play games for kicking back and relaxing, not for 'representation'. Just give me a fun game and let me have at it.

.

 

[Sianos]

No it does not. Whether or not a female is playable in co-op has absolutely no bearing on the quality of the product are you kidding me? Unless it's in this case where a female in co-op would hinder the quality of the game because it would take up time and resources from other more crucial aspects of the game.

You continue to prove my own point in this matter.

You think that having the option to play as a female in co-op where the co-op avatar projection is customizable does not matter at all. As people have clearly demonstrated, it holds value to them. To dismiss that value as something that doesn't matter is a symptom of societal views towards women and the exact point people are making towards Ubisoft's dismissive excuse towards why women aren't present in their co-op.

 

[iNvid02]

Phew, damn I'm glad I don't spend as much time on this as many do here...I couldn't care less what ethnicity or gender developers choose for their games. I play games for kicking back and relaxing, not for 'representation'. Just give me a fun game and let me have at it.

make your mind up shinobi

 

[Crossing Eden]

Invluding women would have resulted in a lower quality product?

Doing it without half-assing it takes away time and resources from other aspects that are more crucial to the game. So yes.

You said, 'if I were a female...', you would feel a certain way when clearly that's how you actually feel as a male looking at the rest of your post. I was just giving you my opinion as an actual female.

And i'm giving you facts as an animation major and as someone who has read and watched all of the information that this game has had to offer so far.

Ubisoft not wanting to put anymore than the minimal amount of effort into an AC game? Well I never...

Yea they definitely put in the minimal effort for the game
-Seamless co-op MP
-New character modeling system and character rigging that includes realtime facial wrinkling
-New crowd technology
-Revamped combat
-Revamped parkour
-Game is built from the ground up
-Buildings are first the first time 1:1 scale and the city is bigger than every island in AC4 combined
-New seamless mission structure where failing the current objective leads to a new objective
-New skill points system
Not to mention features they haven't even revealed yet. Yea definitely minimal effort on AC Unity. Ծ_Ծ

 

[ArchedThunder]

Phew, damn I'm glad I don't spend as much time on this as many do here...I couldn't care less what ethnicity or gender developers choose for their games. I play games for kicking back and relaxing, not for 'representation'. Just give me a fun game and let me have at it.

Wait, Shinobi got banned? Why?

 

[Sianos]

As others have pointed out this is not how game development works. You can't just take a model from another game and 'merely polish it up' and drop it into another. Next you'll be talking about tightening up the graphics on level 3. And it also ignores the constraint of TIME, not money, not labour, but TIME. They work to incredibly tight deadlines.

Oho, but it has been proven that there will be a female assassin NPC due to the leaked poster of the game! And that model should hopefully be polished up to the standards of other models! Perfect for use in the co-op. Whatever animation improvements are done can then be used for this seemingly important character as well. Perfect!

 

[Toa TAK]

Wait, Shinobi got banned? Why?

This.

 

[MagicWithEarvin]

Wait, Shinobi got banned? Why?

Probably for that comment you quoted him.

 

[Dennis]

shinobi, you just came back......



About the topic, either Ubi just figures the game will sell better with all male protagonists or it is true that it would be a substantial investment to redo the animations.

Any way to know if the technical argument holds up?

 

[MEsoJD]

They can do whatever they want with their game... Don't like it, vote with your wallet or make your own game. I'm so tired of this trend PC Nazis.

 

[Azih]

Oho, but it has been proven that there will be a female assassin NPC due to the leaked poster of the game! And that model should hopefully be polished up to the standards of other models! Perfect for use in the co-op. Whatever animation improvements are done can then be used for this seemingly important character as well. Perfect!

NPCs are not PCs and require far less animation.

 

[figadapaura]

And i'm giving you facts as an animation major and as someone who has read and watched all of the information that this game has had to offer so far.

Your opinion on whether or not a female character was worth the time to implement isn't a fact.