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[Crossing Eden]

You continue to prove my own point in this matter.

You think that having the option to play as a female in co-op where the co-op avatar projection is customizable does not matter at all. As people have clearly demonstrated, it holds value to them.

It's not a co-op avatar. It's Arno. Arno is the character, you're customizing this person right here.

^ This is who you're playing as. You're not playing as some generic avatar. When you go online, literally the only things players see that is different. Is your face. The body structure is the same. The forearms are the same. The animations are the same. Everything is the same, except for the face.

 

[conman]

Barring the abundant sexism that inevitably comes out of these discussions, I am unbelievably gratified to see that issues like this are becoming more and more visible in the industry.

The gaming industry is too talented and too important to ignore issues of inclusivity and fair representation any longer.

 

[Toa TAK]

shinobi, you just came back......



About the topic, either Ubi just figures the game will sell better with all male protagonists or it is true that it would be a substantial investment to redo the animations.

Any way to know if the technical argument holds up?

I don't remember where I read it before, but Ubisoft doesn't think Female leads in video games sell well.

Also, I don't know if this was posted or not, but here's a link to their response.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Your opinion on whether or not a female character was worth the time to implement isn't a fact.

It's not worth the time that they had left because you're asking them to either
-Half-ass it
-Create tons of new technology specifically for a female character that the player doesn't even see.
^ Both these are the reality of the situation. Or as Ubisoft puts it, the "reality of production."

 

[TheLight]

Honestly there are a couple of issues I see in discussions like this.

1. People are severely underestimating the amount of work it takes to make a character like this COMPETENTLY. They probably would've wanted to get a mocap actor in, voice, change all of the equipment to fit a woman's build, facial animation etc. It's not hard to take some random skeleton of a female and modify it, but it's also not that great quality wise. Animation fidelity is probably pretty important to them.

2. The role of the consumer. Should the consumer have the right to dictate how a game should be and who you play as? The power is in the money and the consumers have it. Are developers required to yield representation of different groups because people on the internet say so? The word entitlement is thrown around, but developers don't owe consumers any representation quite frankly. They don't have to be the ones to move the industry forward. If it helps sales in any circumstance, they would probably start making girl, gay, trans, etc protags but that isn't a sure thing and business is business.

3. The "Ubisoft has a lot of studios! 900 people working on this!" has been thrown around and is inherently nonsensical because not everyone working on the game is paid to animate. Or even knows how? And if they do they are probably working on Assassin's Creed 51 or Far Cry 5? I don't get that one.

4. Under representation is a problem but there are gamers who are pretty dismissive of the fact and it stalls discussion. You may not care, and it might not be that important to you, but if we can have a bigger variety of protagonists we should. Otherwise it gets kinda lame.

This issue proves to me how the internet amplifies hysteria. Honestly, I don't think this is sexist/misogynistic. The industry has been male centered for a while, and we are finally just starting to get out of that. Believe it or not, it's not as simple as just "make playable ladies!" because it is still a new concept for gaming and dare I say entertainment as a whole. We still have a lack of female protagonists or a lot of shitty ones in movies, comics, novels etc. Like many have said, we have spent 20+ years in the white male protagonist phase, and it isn't going to be dismantled in a day because the internet wants it bad enough. It'll happen. The kids now who want to make video games and feel under represented will make games with female protagonists, trans protagonists, gay protagonists etc.

 

[ab.aeterno]

1. Of course there's no forbidding going on. No one except Ubi bosses have the power to do that. But to say this sort of criticism doesn't stifle creative expression is not reasonable to my view. Self-censorship is a thing and it's a misdiagnosis of the real problem anyway.

Can you show examples to backup the idea that criticism stifles creative expression? Because every other medium handles criticism just fine, and people continue making expressive, creative works. George RR Martin is criticized for including sexual violence in his stories, but he still includes it because that's part of the story he wants to tell.

Besides, your argument is incredibly troubling. It creates an implication that people shouldn't speak up criticize something for not being inclusive, and yet expecting progress be made. How can progress be made when these issues aren't brought up and talked about? Are minorities supposed to be the only ones creating inclusive games? Especially with how few minorities are in the field?

Think about this: Mass Effect was criticised over two games for not including homosexual romance. You would argue this is an attack, and wrong, and would stifle creative freedom. Not only did it not do that, they were more inclusive in the third game and confine to include LGBT characters romance options their games going forward. If they weren't criticized, this would possibly not have happened. Criticism is important, and it helps.

2. Having a lead character of a specific gender will NEVER be a root decision problem to me. Arno is male. There's nothing wrong to me with writing a story that has one lead character who is of a specific gender.

I'm speaking specifically to the assertions being made that female characters in co-op wouldn't work because of the way co-op is designed. That is itself a contentious conclusion, but that was a problem of their own making regardless. It's not like they had to design the co-op this specific way and their hands were tied, they made the co-op in a way that couldn't (arguably) accommodate female characters, so using tree design limitations more isn't excusing anything. It just reinforces the misprioritization.

 

[KJRS_1993]

If their were four different characters I would understand where the problem was coming from, but I'm really convinced the only protagonist in the game is Arno who the player will always be, and any other players in any other online session just look like generic Assassins.

A female Assassin in a mainline game would be really cool though.

 

[Sianos]

It's not worth the time that they had left because you're asking them to either
-Half-ass it
-Create tons of new technology specifically for a female character that the player doesn't even see.
^ Both these are the reality of the situation. Or as Ubisoft puts it, the "reality of production."

Wow, for an animation major you don't understand the difference between client-side and world viewmodels? The source engine has the ability for this, in fact you can use the world viewmodel animations as client-side animations as well and vice versa! And if this wonderful new engine can't achieve parity with the source engine on the basics of animation viewmodel design, there is much work to be done on the core of the game.

And also, why are you assuming that they'd halfass the inclusion of a female main character? Because it isn't a priority to you?

 

[figadapaura]

It's not worth the time that they had left because you're asking them to either
-Half-ass it
-Create tons of new technology specifically for a female character that the player doesn't even see.
^ Both these are the reality of the situation. Or as Ubisoft puts it, the "reality of production."

Are you seriously suggesting this would have been necessary? Why?

 

[Hamster Plugin]

But also a game like The Last Of Us has strong gender neutrality, even if the story is about a man: in The Last Of Us people are different because they are different, not because their gender is different; gender is perfectly balanced and equally represented; females don't have have standard token attributes; both genders do what they have to do to survive, exactly like it is in the real world.

Didn't someone make a thread complaining about you only fighting men in that game? That's not very gender neutral.

Although female enemies seem to be even less common than female leads - Saints Row 3 is the only game I can think of where you have gunfights with women and men regularly. There's fantasy stuff like Dark Souls too, but I mean a real world style setting.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Honestly there are a couple of issues I see in discussions like this.

1. People are severely underestimating the amount of work it takes to make a character like this COMPETENTLY. They probably would've wanted to get a mocap actor in, voice, change all of the equipment to fit a woman's build, facial animation etc. It's not hard to take some random skeleton of a female and modify it, but it's also not that great quality wise. Animation fidelity is probably pretty important to them.

2. The role of the consumer. Should the consumer have the right to dictate how a game should be and who you play as? The power is in the money and the consumers have it. Are developers required to yield representation of different groups because people on the internet say so? The word entitlement is thrown around, but developers don't owe consumers any representation quite frankly. They don't have to be the ones to move the industry forward. If it helps sales in any circumstance, they would probably start making girl, gay, trans, etc protags but that isn't a sure thing and business is business.

3. The "Ubisoft has a lot of studios! 900 people working on this!" has been thrown around and is inherently nonsensical because not everyone working on the game is paid to animate. Or even knows how? And if they do they are probably working on Assassin's Creed 51 or Far Cry 5? I don't get that one.

4. Under representation is a problem but there are gamers who are pretty dismissive of the fact and it stalls discussion. You may not care, and it might not be that important to you, but if we can have a bigger variety of protagonists we should. Otherwise it gets kinda lame.

This issue proves to me how the internet amplifies hysteria. Honestly, I don't think this is sexist/misogynistic. The industry has been male centered for a while, and we are finally just starting to get out of that. Believe it or not, it's not as simple as just "make playable ladies!" because it is still a new concept for gaming and dare I say entertainment as a whole. We still have a lack of female protagonists or a lot of shitty ones in movies, comics, novels etc. Like many have said, we have spent 20+ years in the white male protagonist phase, and it isn't going to be dismantled in a day because the internet wants it bad enough. It'll happen. The kids now who want to make video games and feel under represented will make games with female protagonists, trans protagonists, gay protagonists etc.

Excellent post.

 

[Naminator]

Man when the hell did Ubi become the whipping boy for social justice warriors?

Shit is getting insane.

 

[ScriptedReality]

Well..here it kind of doesn't make sense that you should be able to The way co-op works in Unit is that at most you would be able to see other people play as female character and it would be just you seeing them like this, they themselves would still play as male from their perspective. With set up like this it kind of does seem like a waste of resources and needless complication to put female model there.

Hmm this makes sense.. I retract my disappointment lol

 

[Sianos]

Man when the hell did Ubi become the whipping boy for social justice warriors?

Shit is getting insane.

Their very dismissive response towards to the inclusion of women is what is being targeted here. Ubisoft has done good things involving gender representation, but that response and the attitude behind it is the problem and it is often endemic to the industry.

"Social justice warriors" is a hilarious derogatory label, complaining that people are too willing to stand up for gender issues paints you as someone against progressive gender representation. As recent tragedies have shown, misogynist attitudes have led to murderous consequences, but now I'm going off topic.

 

[Authority]

Man when the hell did Ubi become the whipping boy for social justice warriors?

Shit is getting insane.

It was nice knowing you.

 

[iNvid02]

I cant see an AC game with dual protagonists ever happening with their current annual setup, but I think a future instalment with a female lead will happen.

Its clear for Unity, they made the choice to have another male lead in Arno, attempting to throw in a female co-op avatar but scrapping the idea citing production issues (animation, mocap, voice over, time, budget etc)

To quote the level designer

"We started, but we had to drop it," level designer Bruno St. Andre added. "I cannot speak for the future of the brand, but it was dear to the production team, so you can expect that it will happen eventually in the brand."

 

[figadapaura]

Didn't someone make a thread complaining about you only fighting men in that game? That's not very gender neutral.

Although female enemies seem to be even less common than female leads - Saints Row 3 is the only game I can think of where you have gunfights with women and men regularly. There's fantasy stuff like Dark Souls too, but I mean a real world style setting.

They claimed it was a RAM issue (who knows if that's true or not), but you do play as and fight women in the multiplayer so there's at least gender neutrality in that aspect of the game. Perhaps they'll have changed a few things in the remastered version so that there's female NPC's in the singleplayer you can kill. That's definitely high up on the list of things I wanted them to do.

 

[Scizzy]

Like many have said, we have spent 20+ years in the white male protagonist phase, and it isn't going to be dismantled in a day because the internet wants it bad enough. It'll happen. The kids now who want to make video games and feel under represented will make games with female protagonists, trans protagonists, gay protagonists etc.

The reason it will happen is because fans keep clamoring for it. If people don't push them, it's clear this won't be a priority for most video game companies.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

It's not worth the time that they had left because you're asking them to either
-Half-ass it
-Create tons of new technology specifically for a female character that the player doesn't even see.
^ Both these are the reality of the situation. Or as Ubisoft puts it, the "reality of production."

I honestly wonder if you believe this bullshit or if you're just butthurt.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Man when the hell did Ubi become the whipping boy for social justice warriors?

Shit is getting insane.

That term is interesting because while it's obviously used in a derogatory way, it's actually accurate.

Anyone who cares about/who voices concern for social issues are routinely beset by apathetic idiots who don't care about anything outside their living rooms and have to constantly fight absolutely every time discussion about social issues come up, especially on video game forums. They have to fight, not even to discuss the issues at hand, but to defend the very worth of the discussion.

So yeah, they are "warriors" because they have to be.

 

[thebloo]

Honestly there are a couple of issues I see in discussions like this.

1. People are severely underestimating the amount of work it takes to make a character like this COMPETENTLY. They probably would've wanted to get a mocap actor in, voice, change all of the equipment to fit a woman's build, facial animation etc. It's not hard to take some random skeleton of a female and modify it, but it's also not that great quality wise. Animation fidelity is probably pretty important to them.

2. The role of the consumer. Should the consumer have the right to dictate how a game should be and who you play as? The power is in the money and the consumers have it. Are developers required to yield representation of different groups because people on the internet say so? The word entitlement is thrown around, but developers don't owe consumers any representation quite frankly. They don't have to be the ones to move the industry forward. If it helps sales in any circumstance, they would probably start making girl, gay, trans, etc protags but that isn't a sure thing and business is business.

3. The "Ubisoft has a lot of studios! 900 people working on this!" has been thrown around and is inherently nonsensical because not everyone working on the game is paid to animate. Or even knows how? And if they do they are probably working on Assassin's Creed 51 or Far Cry 5? I don't get that one.

4. Under representation is a problem but there are gamers who are pretty dismissive of the fact and it stalls discussion. You may not care, and it might not be that important to you, but if we can have a bigger variety of protagonists we should. Otherwise it gets kinda lame.

This issue proves to me how the internet amplifies hysteria. Honestly, I don't think this is sexist/misogynistic. The industry has been male centered for a while, and we are finally just starting to get out of that. Believe it or not, it's not as simple as just "make playable ladies!" because it is still a new concept for gaming and dare I say entertainment as a whole. We still have a lack of female protagonists or a lot of shitty ones in movies, comics, novels etc. Like many have said, we have spent 20+ years in the white male protagonist phase, and it isn't going to be dismantled in a day because the internet wants it bad enough. It'll happen. The kids now who want to make video games and feel under represented will make games with female protagonists, trans protagonists, gay protagonists etc.

Well put.

 

[Vermillion]

I honestly wonder if you believe this bullshit or if you're just butthurt.

If there are no cutscenes involving Arno, he's wrong.

If there are, he's right.

 

[TheLight]

The reason it will happen is because fans keep clamoring for it. If people don't push them, it's clear this won't be a priority for most video game companies.

It's not a priority because it is still risky. Ubisoft has been taking risks with protagonists in terms of ethnicity, but every developer isn't going to make a female or LGBT protag if there isn't sure money in it. Huge corporations like this are concerned with profit, not representation.

 

[Azih]

Can you show examples to backup the idea that criticism stifles creative expression?

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/14/entertainment/la-et-1214-moca-mural-20101214

Besides, your argument is incredibly troubling. It creates an implication that people shouldn't speak up criticize something for not being inclusive, and yet expecting progress be made.

People can say whatever they want, and other people can say whatever they want in return as long as hate speech isn't involved as far as I'm concerned. Progress in this isn't made by criticizing games that are currently being made but getting to a place where a whole LOT MORE games get made by a lot more different people and different points of view and character origins/backgrounds get represented. The problem isn't with what IS getting made but what ISN'T.

I'm speaking specifically to the assertions being made that female characters in co-op wouldn't work because of the way co-op is designed.

It can. It's just that the experience of the single player is designed to never change Arno is always Arno. The projection can change but it's a change that doesn't make any impact to the character that the player controls himself or herself.

 

[Lucc]

Really disappointed that there is no female playable character. That extinguished the last little bit of interest I've had left in this series.

Oh well. Wasn't that excited for it to begin with anyways.

 

[stupei]

That term is interesting because while it's obviously used in a derogatory way, it's actually accurate.

Anyone who cares about/who voices concern for social issues are routinely beset by apathetic idiots who don't care about anything outside their living rooms and have to constantly fight absolutely every time discussion about social issues come up, especially on video game forums. They have to fight, not even to discuss the issues at hand, but to defend the very worth of the discussion.

So yeah, they are "warriors" because they have to be.

I always think it's interesting that it seems to suggest that having to go to war just to ask for representation in the media you consume is something that women and minorities should be ashamed of instead of, say, society at large.

 

[figadapaura]

If there are no cutscenes involving Arno, he's wrong.

If there are, he's right.

It doesn't matter because the player (as in if you were playing the game) would only ever see Arno anyway. I assume all 4 people playing will see a cutscene involving their Arno?

 

[superchunk]

Interesting topic and kinda surprised its caught fire so to speak.

One thing I read on twitter ... haven't verified for correctness ... is that during the French Revolution the most notorious assassin was a woman. If true this semi-historical series should have included one.

I can understand the main character not being female if the same premise exists where your future self is male, but the support cast could easily include strong female.

Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to how long it should take to add female base figures. But as a dev (non-gaming) myself, I can't think it could be done in a day or even a few days. Movements aside, there are many characteristics that are different that would need to be accounted for.

 

[striferser]

Honestly there are a couple of issues I see in discussions like this.

1. People are severely underestimating the amount of work it takes to make a character like this COMPETENTLY. They probably would've wanted to get a mocap actor in, voice, change all of the equipment to fit a woman's build, facial animation etc. It's not hard to take some random skeleton of a female and modify it, but it's also not that great quality wise. Animation fidelity is probably pretty important to them.

2. The role of the consumer. Should the consumer have the right to dictate how a game should be and who you play as? The power is in the money and the consumers have it. Are developers required to yield representation of different groups because people on the internet say so? The word entitlement is thrown around, but developers don't owe consumers any representation quite frankly. They don't have to be the ones to move the industry forward. If it helps sales in any circumstance, they would probably start making girl, gay, trans, etc protags but that isn't a sure thing and business is business.

3. The "Ubisoft has a lot of studios! 900 people working on this!" has been thrown around and is inherently nonsensical because not everyone working on the game is paid to animate. Or even knows how? And if they do they are probably working on Assassin's Creed 51 or Far Cry 5? I don't get that one.

4. Under representation is a problem but there are gamers who are pretty dismissive of the fact and it stalls discussion. You may not care, and it might not be that important to you, but if we can have a bigger variety of protagonists we should. Otherwise it gets kinda lame.

This issue proves to me how the internet amplifies hysteria. Honestly, I don't think this is sexist/misogynistic. The industry has been male centered for a while, and we are finally just starting to get out of that. Believe it or not, it's not as simple as just "make playable ladies!" because it is still a new concept for gaming and dare I say entertainment as a whole. We still have a lack of female protagonists or a lot of shitty ones in movies, comics, novels etc. Like many have said, we have spent 20+ years in the white male protagonist phase, and it isn't going to be dismantled in a day because the internet wants it bad enough. It'll happen. The kids now who want to make video games and feel under represented will make games with female protagonists, trans protagonists, gay protagonists etc.

Well put.

I side with ubi this time. When they said customizable avatar, i though it's new character creation mode ala saint row or skyrim.

The fact that player only modified their Arno and Ubisoft wanting to implement seamless MP is something that probably cannot be handled in short time as of now.

I'd say, pure communication from Ubisoft side,

 

[Interfectum]

Nah, I don't think so. Maybe I'm just a bit more of a hardass when it comes to things like this, but companies who make mistakes like this deserve to be called out just like any other company. I'd like to think of myself as a pretty decent guy, but if I said some shit that was just plain offensive to someone and I didn't know it, I wouldn't want them to just think "well, okay, he's usually not like this", I'd want them to speak up and tell me! That's part of how we learn and grow as a community!

All I'm saying is maybe their 'excuse' has some validity considering they have not shied away from having diverse protagonists in the past. If we are going to crucify Ubisoft over this perhaps they should be as equally praised next time they cast a character that isn't a white male. That is barely a blip on the radar compared to something like this.

 

[Orayn]

That term is interesting because while it's obviously used in a derogatory way, it's actually accurate.

Anyone who cares about/who voices concern for social issues are routinely beset by apathetic idiots who don't care about anything outside their living rooms and have to constantly fight absolutely every time discussion about social issues come up, especially on video game forums. They have to fight, not even to discuss the issues at hand, but to defend the very worth of the discussion.

So yeah, they are "warriors" because they have to be.

I like this, but it's pretty sad that the idea of "social justice" has become a pejorative to some people.

 

[Orthogonal]

I think this is a really fascinating topic and I'm going to try to remain neutral on it. Personally for me it's a non-issue. I will play a game regardless of whether it is Male only, Female only or the option is granted, but then again, that's just me. I can empathize with others who want the option and how it helps them relate to the game. It is important that this talked about because it takes time for a cause to gain momentum and see gains against entrenched views.

I don't mean to take this off-topic but I think there are a lot of parallels. The broader issue of gay-marriage which has historically been vehemently opposed is now starting to see real progress. There is certainly opposition to it still, but it is only due to decades of debate and continually pressing the issue that it has gained the traction that it has. It is now on a trajectory that it probably won't be long before it is universally accepted (at least in the US) and then becomes a total non issue. The same applies with Marijuana legaliztion.

Women in games and in a broader sense all other under-represented minorities is a cause that will take time but it will only happen if the discussion continues to happen. Games have grown up and are not the simple pixels bouncing on screen they used to be, broader social issues are now making their impact in the stories and gameplay. The market will ultimately sort itself out as the chorus continues. We are still in the early stages of this, there have already been some positive signs from select developer's and games and I think this will ultimately lead to a solution that the broad majority of gamer's want.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Are you seriously suggesting this would have been necessary? Why?

Let me explain to you how much it would take to do this competently
-You have this character:Arno, you have all these outfits specifically made for him. You have over 8000 animations for him. Which includes
1.Tons of Weapons with their own A,B,C combos
2.Secondary Animation like cloth physics and simulation
3.dynamic animations
4.Contextual Animations
5.Actor quirks because this is all motion capture with some keyframing and adjusting.
6.An advanced facial rig
To do a female character correctly that doesn't seem awkward or out of place. They would have to
1.Create a whole new female character rig that is just as complex as Arno
2.Create more feminine animations, (men and women have different anatomy and naturally do a lot of things differently, this is a fact of life, it's simple anatomy, nothing sexist about thinking this, this especially holds up in animation if you wanna be convincing). And here's where the new tech comes in
-Somehow Ubisoft would have to make it so that the sees themselves as Arno on his screen without making him run in a feminine way on the player's screen while also making sure other players see the female animations coming through. So essentially two different players are seeing two different sets of animations and the game has to be able to do this accurately
3.Re-do every weapon animation so that the weapons look like they naturally are hitting the enemies
-Since the animations have to be more feminine to look natural. SOMEHOW, these animations have to play out differently the player sees themselves as Arno, but here's the kicker, where's the enemy supposed to land if the both players are seeing a different animation. That has to be taken into account.
4.Redo all the outfits so that they look natural on a female character, but remember, these are not randomized npcs that you see. You see their weapons/gear
-So somehow the female has to appear as Arno on the player's screen but also look natural on another player's screen including secondary animation
I'm just scratching the surface of the amount of time and work it would take. If these things do NOT take a day or two's work unless ofc you half ass it.

 

[Scizzy]

It's not a priority because it is still risky. Ubisoft has been taking risks with protagonists in terms of ethnicity, but every developer isn't going to make a female or LGBT protag if there isn't sure money in it. Huge corporations like this are concerned with profit, not representation.

This is hardly a response to questioning the lack of female representation in games, but I especially refuse to believe that including a single female assassin among four possible co-op characters would have any negative impact on how a game sells.

 

[Goliath]

Didn't someone make a thread complaining about you only fighting men in that game? That's not very gender neutral.

Although female enemies seem to be even less common than female leads - Saints Row 3 is the only game I can think of where you have gunfights with women and men regularly. There's fantasy stuff like Dark Souls too, but I mean a real world style setting.

To be fair though, Dark Souls is an amazing game gameplay wise, however when it comes to NPCs or character animations not much effort is put into it. I mean when NPC's talk to you their lips don't even move, at least in the first one.

 

[Kuldar]

Interesting topic and kinda surprised its caught fire so to speak.

One thing I read on twitter ... haven't verified for correctness ... is that during the French Revolution the most notorious assassin was a woman. If true this semi-historical series should have included one.

I can understand the main character not being female if the same premise exists where your future self is male, but the support cast could easily include strong female.

Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to how long it should take to add female base figures. But as a dev (non-gaming) myself, I can't think it could be done in a day or even a few days. Movements aside, there are many characteristics that are different that would need to be accounted for.

Fact is that we don't know is there aren't strong female characters and/or female assassins. All we know is that we can't play as a female assassin.

 

[Zoe]

I can understand the main character not being female if the same premise exists where your future self is male, but the support cast could easily include strong female.

There's nothing to say that there aren't strong females in the supporting cast.

 

[StevePharma]

I don't remember where I read it before, but Ubisoft doesn't think Female leads in video games sell well.

Well if Beyond Good and Evil & Child of Light are any indication they may have a point....

Jade is still one of the best female characters in a video game to me.

 

[Rodelero]

This is literally the second white male main character that we've played as in this series. Edward Kenway was the first.
Altair was middle eastern
Ezio was pure Italian
Connor was Half British Half Native
Adewale/Aveline were African American
And also, maybe we're playing as a white male because it's the french revolution and it wouldn't make sense to play as something other than a white male.

The post you're quoting was (quite clearly) about Far Cry.

 

[Sianos]

Leaked poster confirms that there is a female assassin present in the game, no word on her characterization yet. But a poster worthy character should have loads of polish: she'd only need a bit of tweaking to become the base of a co-op female character, and whatever tweaking that is made benefits the model and animation fidelity in the single player game.

 

[Crossing Eden]

If there are no cutscenes involving Arno, he's wrong.

If there are, he's right.

We've already seen cutscenes involving Arno including a dev diary on ign's website that shows them using facial capture for the first time in the series. They already confirmed that this will have a story and cutscenes.

 

[The Librarian]

2. The role of the consumer. Should the consumer have the right to dictate how a game should be and who you play as?

I don't know about dictate but I don't see why we can't have the option of playing as a girl in co-op modes and multiplayer.

 

[mrkgoo]

This seems like a silly thing to get in arms about. Man, and you wonder why a PR group hast to tread so carefully during interviews.

If an audience has to find something to complain about and blow it up out of proportion, im surprised anyone would want to speak about development at all.

 

[fade_]

Honestly there are a couple of issues I see in discussions like this.

1. People are severely underestimating the amount of work it takes to make a character like this COMPETENTLY. They probably would've wanted to get a mocap actor in, voice, change all of the equipment to fit a woman's build, facial animation etc. It's not hard to take some random skeleton of a female and modify it, but it's also not that great quality wise. Animation fidelity is probably pretty important to them.

2. The role of the consumer. Should the consumer have the right to dictate how a game should be and who you play as? The power is in the money and the consumers have it. Are developers required to yield representation of different groups because people on the internet say so? The word entitlement is thrown around, but developers don't owe consumers any representation quite frankly. They don't have to be the ones to move the industry forward. If it helps sales in any circumstance, they would probably start making girl, gay, trans, etc protags but that isn't a sure thing and business is business.

3. The "Ubisoft has a lot of studios! 900 people working on this!" has been thrown around and is inherently nonsensical because not everyone working on the game is paid to animate. Or even knows how? And if they do they are probably working on Assassin's Creed 51 or Far Cry 5? I don't get that one.

4. Under representation is a problem but there are gamers who are pretty dismissive of the fact and it stalls discussion. You may not care, and it might not be that important to you, but if we can have a bigger variety of protagonists we should. Otherwise it gets kinda lame.

This issue proves to me how the internet amplifies hysteria. Honestly, I don't think this is sexist/misogynistic. The industry has been male centered for a while, and we are finally just starting to get out of that. Believe it or not, it's not as simple as just "make playable ladies!" because it is still a new concept for gaming and dare I say entertainment as a whole. We still have a lack of female protagonists or a lot of shitty ones in movies, comics, novels etc. Like many have said, we have spent 20+ years in the white male protagonist phase, and it isn't going to be dismantled in a day because the internet wants it bad enough. It'll happen. The kids now who want to make video games and feel under represented will make games with female protagonists, trans protagonists, gay protagonists etc.

Thank you for putting this better than I ever could. I would understand if it was a multiplayer game with generic characters that you can customize but from what I understand you play a character with a story not a multiplayer character like in Super Smash Bros. It would be wrong to crucifiy a developer for sticking to their vision of how the game should be. And if that vision doesn't jive with consumers they will vote with their wallets.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Leaked poster confirms that there is a female assassin present in the game, no word on her characterization yet. But a poster worthy character should have loads of polish: she'd only need a bit of tweaking to become the base of a co-op female character, and whatever tweaking that is made benefits the model and animation fidelity in the single player game.

Dude, it's not a little bit of tweaking involved. A little bit of tweaking=AC:Liberation=half assed job. PLUS she has to be rigged to fit in literally every single outfit that Arno has not to mention fit all the animations. Please don't act like it's "oh just a little bit of tweaking here and there"

 

[Glass Rebel]

Welp, simply put, everyone in Peace Walker sees themselves as Snake and other players as a different character. You said that that is apparently a lower product.

If the co-op tied to the story and are inconsistencies introduced this way, I find that to be very inelegant design and therefore a lower product.

The problem is that you're acting like your opinion on what makes the game better or worse is the most important one. Being quite familiar with the Assassin's Creed series and all its padding they could take out literally half of it in and it wouldn't lead to a worse product to me.

What ways exactly? I can only think of making every character custom but that would come with a lot of extra work and usually makes for a less developed character.

For example. It really depends on how the story and the missions are set up. I mean, even this solution can't account for the inconsistency of a non-Arno character killing an important antagonist. The inclusion of seamless co-op comes with drawbacks in a series as narrative driven as Assassin's Creed and the lack of female player avatars is one of them. It all boils down to priorities and Ubisoft seems to think that seamless co-op is more important than female avatars.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I don't know about dictate but I don't see why we can't have the option of playing as a girl in co-op modes and multiplayer.

I explained that to you multiple times in the case of AC Unity but you kinda just blatantly ignored it so...

 

[Oersted]

1. People are severely underestimating the amount of work it takes to make a character like this COMPETENTLY. They probably would've wanted to get a mocap actor in, voice, change all of the equipment to fit a woman's build, facial animation etc. It's not hard to take some random skeleton of a female and modify it, but it's also not that great quality wise. Animation fidelity is probably pretty important to them.

This thread is about developers calling out Ubisoft. Which people are you talking about?

2. The role of the consumer. Should the consumer have the right to dictate how a game should be and who you play as? The power is in the money and the consumers have it. Are developers required to yield representation of different groups because people on the internet say so? The word entitlement is thrown around, but developers don't owe consumers any representation quite frankly. They don't have to be the ones to move the industry forward. If it helps sales in any circumstance, they would probably start making girl, gay, trans, etc protags but that isn't a sure thing and business is business.

Microsoft didn't owe the consumer a DRM free console. But they did it. Because people showed demand. Here are gamers showing demand for their representation.

3. The "Ubisoft has a lot of studios! 900 people working on this!" has been thrown around and is inherently nonsensical because not everyone working on the game is paid to animate. Or even knows how? And if they do they are probably working on Assassin's Creed 51 or Far Cry 5? I don't get that one.

That is point 1 again.

4. Under representation is a problem but there are gamers who are pretty dismissive of the fact and it stalls discussion. You may not care, and it might not be that important to you, but if we can have a bigger variety of protagonists we should. Otherwise it gets kinda lame.

You are dismissive right now.

This issue proves to me how the internet amplifies hysteria. Honestly, I don't think this is sexist/misogynistic. The industry has been male centered for a while, and we are finally just starting to get out of that. Believe it or not, it's not as simple as just "make playable ladies!" because it is still a new concept for gaming and dare I say entertainment as a whole. We still have a lack of female protagonists or a lot of shitty ones in movies, comics, novels etc. Like many have said, we have spent 20+ years in the white male protagonist phase, and it isn't going to be dismantled in a day because the internet wants it bad enough. It'll happen. The kids now who want to make video games and feel under represented will make games with female protagonists, trans protagonists, gay protagonists etc.

And these kids demand better representation. Both ways, showing consumer demand and developer interest, are perfectly fine.

 

[Vermillion]

It doesn't matter because the player (as in if you were playing the game) would only ever see Arno anyway. I assume all 4 people playing will see a cutscene involving their Arno?

Exactly the point. If they did make a female character, she would be one of two characters you can actually play as. In cutscenes, you'd still see Arno. That would be pretty half-assed. I don't think that they're really fighting for what amounts to a glorified skin. I imagine they want a female *character*.

 

[The Librarian]

I explained that to you multiple times in the case of AC Unity but you kinda just blatantly ignored it so...

The post I quoted wasn't talking about AC Unity, more videogames in general.

Why do you have to be so patronizing?