Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
This must be irony.
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DF Direct Weekly #180: The PS5 Pro Breakdown: GT7, TLOUp2, Ratchet, Horizon, Alan Wake 2 + More!
- Thread starter Gaiff
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Mr Moose
Member
I wouldn't get the 8GB card personally, the 16GB model is better.
I don't know how they went backwards with the 4060 (8GB) from 3060 (12GB).
Physiognomonics
Member
- TLOU2: they are not even mentionning once the most noticeable improvement everybody noticed without any zoom: the sharper looking textures. On the other hand they need 4x zooms to show us some ghosting problems nobody will every notice.
- Horizon forbidden west. 1800p CBR to 2160p CBR is actually 44% resolution improvement. So it seems in this game they just use the raw 45% GPU improvements. They say the game looks a bit cleaner on PC and shadows are different. But actually shadows are quite worse on PC with some ugly flickering on his face while it's smooth and without flickering on PS5 Pro. Again very noticeable difference but overlooked because it wasn't on the other side. Overal the PS5 Pro looks very similar to the max out 4070 version... albeit with better shadows.
- Horizon forbidden west. 1800p CBR to 2160p CBR is actually 44% resolution improvement. So it seems in this game they just use the raw 45% GPU improvements. They say the game looks a bit cleaner on PC and shadows are different. But actually shadows are quite worse on PC with some ugly flickering on his face while it's smooth and without flickering on PS5 Pro. Again very noticeable difference but overlooked because it wasn't on the other side. Overal the PS5 Pro looks very similar to the max out 4070 version... albeit with better shadows.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
4060 and 4060 Ti are pieces of crap.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
But the 4060 Ti seems to be comparable to the PS5 pro if you take into account DLSS Quality mode and FPS.
I was working out where the GPU sits in comparison and the price. The bundle I shared was £999 the other day, could be for BF.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
I don't understand. A 4060ti? It's 15% worse than a 7700XT and 30% worse than a 4070...
How are you arriving at it being comparable to the PS5pro?
Orbital2060
Member
Steam hw survey August 2024:
There is still a majority of people gaming on 1080p panels. Im gonna assume its the same with mainstream console gaming, and probably a higher % still on a 1080p panel. I tried looking around the webs and with AI, but couldnt find any decent research on how many are using 1080p TV for couch gaming/babysitting.
There is still a majority of people gaming on 1080p panels. Im gonna assume its the same with mainstream console gaming, and probably a higher % still on a 1080p panel. I tried looking around the webs and with AI, but couldnt find any decent research on how many are using 1080p TV for couch gaming/babysitting.
twilo99
Gold Member
As someone who mainly plays fast paced shooters, that has been the main reason I don’t trust frame generation.
Did Nvidia get rid of the lag with DLSS?
Bojji
Member
Don't bother. To some people PS5 pro is like the second coming of Christ. They don't accept anything negative about it, everything is "attack" to them.
twilo99
Gold Member
You’ve got much bigger problems than gaming hardware brah..
We don't use the actual temperature of the die, as that would cause two types of variance between PS5s," explains Mark Cerny. "One is variance caused by differences in ambient temperature; the console could be in a hotter or cooler location in the room. The other is variance caused by the individual custom chip in the console, some chips run hotter and some chips run cooler. So instead of using the temperature of the die, we use an algorithm in which the frequency depends on CPU and GPU activity information. That keeps behaviour between PS5s consistent."
Inside the processor is a power control unit, constantly measuring the activity of the CPU, the GPU and the memory interface, assessing the nature of the tasks they are undertaking. Rather than judging power draw based on the nature of your specific PS5 processor, a more general 'model SoC' is used instead. Think of it as a simulation of how the processor is likely to behave, and that same simulation is used at the heart of the power monitor within every PlayStation 5, ensuring consistency in every unit.
The time constant, which is to say the amount of time that the CPU and GPU take to achieve a frequency that matches their activity, is critical to developers," adds Cerny. "It's quite short, if the game is doing power-intensive processing for a few frames, then it gets throttled. There isn't a lag where extra performance is available for several seconds or several minutes and then the system gets throttled; that isn't the world that developers want to live in - we make sure that the PS5 is very responsive to power consumed. In addition to that the developers have feedback on exactly how much power is being used by the CPU and GPU."
In short, the idea is that developers may learn to optimise in a different way, by achieving identical results from the GPU but doing it faster via increased clocks delivered by optimising for power consumption. "The CPU and GPU each have a power budget, of course the GPU power budget is the larger of the two," adds Cerny. "If the CPU doesn't use its power budget - for example, if it is capped at 3.5GHz - then the unused portion of the budget goes to the GPU. That's what AMD calls SmartShift. There's enough power that both CPU and GPU can potentially run at their limits of 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz, it isn't the case that the developer has to choose to run one of them slower."
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive
On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …
www.eurogamer.net
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twilo99
Gold Member
Aren’t they Sony sanctioned media outlet like most of others?
PaintTinJr
Member
You can't see ghosting in the native video at normal playback, that is what gamers experience at 60fps, not ghost trails in slowmo.
They are technological bumpkins in this technology area finding problems for 'reasons' that clearly don't exist.
So a complete waste of my time to watch.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
For reconstruction, that 2ms cost is negligible, especially if the game is already doing FSR, TSR...etc. Those things have a cost that is similar or higher. Replacing them with PSSR doesn't add anything per see. So reconstruction is not adding lag.
But I am guessing you are specifically talking about framegen... and if with that you are asking about the RTX cards, NO. Nvidia has not got rid of the lag associated with frame gen. But Nvidia has reflex, which drops render latency by about a third to begin with, that way when you do use frame gen its not that bad. Its still bad though, frame gen would never be as fast as running a native rez latency-wise. Just not possible.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
I wasn't aware thats what the difference was. So its not comparable to PS5 pro. My bad, I thought with DF saying the PS5 pro is not a 4070 that a 4060 Ti might be the closest match.
Team Andromeda
Banned
It's a 700 quid console and one that failing to make a case that it justifies that's price point.
Even the IGN fanboys are finding it hard. It reminds In ways of the Super Grafx
Mr.Phoenix
Member
While this is true, it doesn't change the fact that there's ghosting in the vegetation. Its not a big deal, from a normal viewing distance and in motion it would be harder to spot, but it's something worth pointing out, and we can only hope Sony is also watching as that is an area that they can work on.
Zathalus
Member
DF indeed said you won't notice the majority of these issues in normal gameplay. You only notice the grass ghosting once it is pointing out, and it is a very minor thing. So are all the other issues they brought up. But that is the whole point of analysis is it not? To find the areas where differences are and compare them. You can use the exact same logic for DLSS and frame generation and yet that doesn't stop DF from making videos where the flaws in those techniques are pointed out. Very few people are going to notice minor artifacts when it comes to ML based upscaling.
But since you haven't actually watched the video and are taking exception about points already addressed in said video, I'll just say that it sure takes some peak level ignorance to critique something you haven't even watched.
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PaintTinJr
Member
Is it ghosting or object blending, possibly a side-effect of anti-aliasing on minified objects, etc or even a compressed capture versus raw issue? HDMI 2.1 with HDR at 4K 60 is Gbits per second, so a measly 65GB for 9minutes still isn't what we see when gaming even captured at ProRes quality.
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Doctor Hades
Member
I fell asleep part way through the DF PS5 Pro video, a first for me, but I think it did highlight to me just little info they had to go on and just how much there is we don't yet know about the PS5 Pro, e.g. presumably PS5 games on the Pro will still include the same modes as before (30 fps Quality, 40 fps / 120 Hz and 60 fps Performance modes etc), albeit with better quality visuals for each settings. And since they showcased so little of the games then it just made the whole analysis video a bit of slog to sit through as I wasn't really seeing anything massive in the way of improvements to any of the games shown.
I think I'm happy to wait and see what else Sony show for the PS5 Pro ahead of its launch because they surely must have something and aren't just relying on a mediocre 9 minute presentation to sell the new console?
I think I'm happy to wait and see what else Sony show for the PS5 Pro ahead of its launch because they surely must have something and aren't just relying on a mediocre 9 minute presentation to sell the new console?
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Thats ok...
Yes, the PS5pro is not a 4070, its not a 7700XT either, it will land somewhere in the middle of those two GPUs. Or even more confusing, it would behave like one of them or the other depending on the workload.
The closest thing to compare it with right now though,m on the Nvidia side of things, is the 4070... or if you wanna really play it safe, at the very worst, the 3070ti, which is about 1% worse than the 7700XT.
Guess a safe range to place the PS5pro in is between the 3070ti though 7700XT, and to the 4070. Cause you also have things like bandwidth or RAM capacity to contend with.
PaintTinJr
Member
I watched the presentation. so I have seen the source footage with zero issues they are now playing/tinkering with.
It is just fud spreading to project unpatented and obvious rudimentary DLSS tech hasn't been surpassed by - non-obvious to experts in the field patented - PSSR.
Build a PC for $700 or less than $1000 that can do the older Raytraced Lighting in Cyberpunk. Will buy it asap.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
It has to be ghosting, and thats a common issue with AI-RC, DLSS used to do the same thing in its earlier iterations. Ghosting is more likely to happen in high-frequency geometry... eg. vegetation. And we are not seeing it anywhere else on the screen except the grass.
Senua
Gold Member
You genuinely live in a separate reality lol
Zathalus
Member
Ah yes, PSSR is superior based on my "expert" viewing of compressed YouTube footage. Truly your genius knows no bounds.
Yes, the VR reconstruction patent that may have nothing to do with PSSR.
(Unless you can provide confirmation from Sony stating otherwise)
PaintTinJr
Member
It doesn't have to be ghosting at all, and that's the point why DF are the blind leading the blind. The ML AI hole filling patent that Sony filed won't ghost with neighbouring pixels, at worst 4 separated pixels in groups of 16 might leave broken pattern residual data, but the smaller the objects get, the lower the probability that a broken ghosting pattern would be distinguishable as ghosting because the trails will be bandwidth limited by the moving geometry - and the resulting moving holes (ie The undersampling will stop it from pattern ghosting).
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Have you seen the patent for PSSR? I frequently lurk beyond on beyond3d and they said nobody saw the patent.
Vick
Gold Member
It may not produce the DLSS ghosting on those balloons in the R&C portion, but it also has shimmering on those trees that is completely absent in the DLSS footage.
They also clearly stated it's miles better than FSR and maybe DLSS Performance.
For the time being, I don't see how it could have gone better. Pretty damn hard to imagine someone like Alex going further than this.
Rudius
Member
In poorer countries many people simply can't afford the hardware to play in 4K. They are playing old games on PCs much weaker than PS5s and using whatever monitor they can get for a cheap price.Steam hw survey August 2024:
There is still a majority of people gaming on 1080p panels. Im gonna assume its the same with mainstream console gaming, and probably a higher % still on a 1080p panel. I tried looking around the webs and with AI, but couldnt find any decent research on how many are using 1080p TV for couch gaming/babysitting.
Zathalus
Member
COMPUTER-IMPLEMENTED METHOD FOR COMPLETING AN IMAGE
Complete Patent Searching Database and Patent Data Analytics Services.
www.freepatentsonline.com
It’s this. It’s a grab bag of ideas that heavily imply usage with VR.
Zero evidence linking this with PSSR.
PaintTinJr
Member
Why would they have seen the patent? It isn't the R&D or the source code, just the means to protect the R&D from external legal challenge, or a means to ensure licensed technology isn't being used without compensation/licensing.
The workings of the R&D can also be split up and filed across multiple patents providing better patent protection of the R&D and a level of obscurity from patent watchers.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
You get what you pay for.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Do you have access to uncompressed content like DF did, or are you basing this purely on the compressed YouTube reveal ?
Because if it's the latter, then it's probably not worth coming to the conclusion that you did.
Zathalus
Member
$700? No. $1000, sure that is quite possible. Excluding a monitor of course. I'd say $1000 is probably at the limit of doing that.
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Are you doing this on purpose now?
You’ve completely missed my point 3 times in a row. I give up.
Topher
Gold Member
Definitely doable but you'll be choosing from the cheapest parts available. Here is one I through together picking the absolute cheapest part for each category. Obviously, that is not the proper way to build a PC. Buy shitty parts and you'll build a shitty PC, but this illustrates it CAN be done for around $1000, with no thought put towards quality/reliability.
Folks will debate leaving out the OS, but fact of the matter is Windows is fully functional without buying a license. The MB is cheapest option I found with wifi built in.
This is more powerful than the PS5 Pro, obviously, with the upgraded CPU. The 3700x is the same price as the 5800x so doesn't make sense to go with the older CPU.
I still maintain that ultimately this doesn't make any difference. A PC does not replace the console in a living room environment. And console gamers typically do not want to build a PC. We are truly talking about different segments of the market here.
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Radical_3d
Member
Too bad nobody told that to Dragon’s Dogma developers while they tanked the beefiest CPU PC can offer into oblivion with an amateur job with the NPCs.
Mobilemofo
Member
But..800€ for this, close to 1k if you want a disk drive
Guys seriously, it's time to switch to PC.
Why? Console is still cheaper than a 4090 plus ya lil keyboard/mouse/ cool looking cooling system, neon wankery light system.
Most just wanna play games, ya know..
Zathalus
Member
No, that build is ridiculous.
Like this one?
I put something together here: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/pd9vHG
That is using Zen 4 allowing for upgrades, but you can drop that to Zen 3 if you want to save money. This isn't meant to replace the Pro or PS5, its just showing that you can build a PC for around $1000 that can play Cyberpunk with the older RT (not PT) effects.
Its obviously not going to be as good as a PS5 in the living room environment.
Bojji
Member
4070 super is enough to do decent path tracing in cyberpunk - 600$.
I'm really curious if we will see path tracing games on pro, rt performance is still unknown. Ampere level, Ada level? For sure it will be better then RDNA2/3.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Definitely doable but you'll be choosing from the cheapest parts available. Here is one I through together picking the absolute cheapest part for each category. Obviously, that is not the proper way to build a PC. Buy shitty parts and you'll build a shitty PC, but this illustrates it CAN be done for around $1000, with no thought put towards quality/reliability.
Folks will debate leaving out the OS, but fact of the matter is Windows is fully functional without buying a license. The MB is cheapest option I found with wifi built in.
This is more powerful than the PS5 Pro, obviously, with the upgraded CPU. The 3700x is the same price as the 5800x so doesn't make sense to go with the older CPU.
I still maintain that ultimately this doesn't make any difference. A PC does not replace the console in a living room environment. And console gamers typically do not want to build a PC. We are truly talking about different segments of the market here.
THats actually not too bad a build, I'd probably drop the CPU a touch and upgrade the memory to something more known / reliable but that would be a decent PC. 100% need to buy a retail AMD CPU and their OEM cooler is decent for an air cooler. THat PSU though...I wouldnt wanna run a 4070 without 650 watts.
This is where we get into the whole discussion, of what does the end user want. Are they happy to have a PC with almost infinite flexibility in how, where you purchase, set up your games but with a less streamlined and can be frustrating trouble shooting regime with the odd games or do you want the simple plug and play of a console / comfy couch gaming.
Both have their positives and negatives.
PropellerEar
Member
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Curious where you're getting all the information on how it's working since there are no papers or anything about PSSR that says this online.
PaintTinJr
Member
And that right there is why anything Alex or Richard say can be ignored. Effectively as has just happened no matter how much better the Pro and PSSR really are we can't expect more than a dishonest and backhanded insult as a compliment from Alex by comparing it to non-AI scaling and poor upscaling in DLSS(performance) because of the inherent bias from them for Nvidia.
Shimmering does happen in native pixels, but again is it shimmering on lighting changes or something else. The presentation was flawless footage, but apparently we need to classify slowmo changes as flaws?
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
>Calls DLSS poor upscaling
>Says DF cannot have reached a conclusion with 9 minutes of footage
>Concludes PSSR is better with an even shorter and poorer quality video
>Says DF is dishonest
>Spends the last dozen posts being dishonest
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Topher
Gold Member
Worth spending more money for better parts, certainly. This was strictly a price exercise. Actually,
Zathalus
's build is much better for the money.As I've been saying, they both are built for different scenarios. Living room vs desk. Folks need to step back and look at it from the target consumer's point of view. That's when we see that, for the vast majority, these are not interchangeable gaming systems.