Support NeoGAF

[LordOfChaos]

Apple: This DX12 emulator is for performance testing for ports wink wink wink wink

The license doesn't let you ship an end product with it commercially, so probably not going to see games from big companies using this emulator directly and shipping with it, but it does make it trivially easy for someone to make a wrapper around a Windows game and run it on mac, so that scene is set to blow up. Hopefully makes for a lot more native Metal 3 ports too since that's what it's supposed to guide you through, but anyone can really set up a Windows game in a mac wrapper in an hour with this.

 

[Unknown?]

Games should just ditch Direct X and go elsewhere.

 

[The Cockatrice]

Games should just ditch Direct X and go elsewhere.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Games should just ditch Direct X and go elsewhere.

Well Vulkan was already almost trivial with MoltenVK, this is the other big industry standard the mac was missing

 

[Snake29]

Games should just ditch Direct X and go elsewhere.

Vulkan enters the building. More should ditch DX and focus more on Vulkan api.

 

[Unknown?]

Well Vulkan was already almost trivial with MoltenVK, this is the other big industry standard the mac was missing

Anything that isn't proprietary is preferable to locked down tech.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

At what resolution?

 

[ANDS]

Learn something new everyday. I literally thought "VULKAN" was like the next iteration of DX or. . .something. Now that I think about it I don't know why I never questioned why there was both DX12 (which, I believe is new. . .ish) and VULKAN (which I still thought was a Windows thing).

. . .good for Apple users then, so they don't have to wait for developers to drag their fucking feet.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Learn something new everyday. I literally thought "VULKAN" was like the next iteration of DX or. . .something. Now that I think about it I don't know why I never questioned why there was both DX12 (which, I believe is new. . .ish) and VULKAN (which I still thought was a Windows thing).

. . .good for Apple users then, so they don't have to wait for developers to drag their fucking feet.

Yeah, Vulkan is sort of the open source spiritual successor to OpenGL, but a low level API. DX12 is also a low level API but Microsoft proprietary, as Metal is for Apple.

Vulkan supports other platforms outside of Windows/Xbox, such as Linux, and Apple dragged their feet on it but other people made a Vulkan over Metal wrapper called Molten

 

[LordOfChaos]

At what resolution?

4 seconds in is all the settings

 

[Astray]

Learn something new everyday. I literally thought "VULKAN" was like the next iteration of DX or. . .something. Now that I think about it I don't know why I never questioned why there was both DX12 (which, I believe is new. . .ish) and VULKAN (which I still thought was a Windows thing).

. . .good for Apple users then, so they don't have to wait for developers to drag their fucking feet.

Vulkan is a competitor for DX iirc.

 

[Astray]

Games should just ditch Direct X and go elsewhere.

The more we unbundle pc gaming from Microsoft products the better imo.

 

[analog_future]

At what resolution?

Looks like it's at 1512x982 (16:10). But with maxed out settings.

I'm sure it could retain 60fps at 4k type resolutions at medium settings.

 

[baphomet]

What happened to everyone saying a M2 destroyed a 3080ti?

Looks more like a 980ti.

Edit - Looked it up, a 980ti actually significantly outperforms this with max settings.

 

[Kilau]

What happened to everyone saying a M2 destroyed a 3080ti?

Looks more like a 980ti.

Raw specs on a native application maybe it's comparable but this is presumably HLE so that's a big hit to performance,

 

[Superayate]

What happened to everyone saying a M2 destroyed a 3080ti?

Looks more like a 980ti.

Here it's dumb to use this result to do comparison...

 

[hlm666]

At what resolution?

shows it in the top right corner, sub 1080p.

 

[01011001]

What happened to everyone saying a M2 destroyed a 3080ti?

Looks more like a 980ti.

Edit - Looked it up, a 980ti actually significantly outperforms this with max settings.

those claims were complete PR bulllshit by Apple. the speed comparison to a 3080ti were based on video editing and rendering performance, which the M2 has dedicated hardware for.

in real world performance in general applications it's like a 1050 or something

 

[Negotiator101]

Games should just ditch Direct X and go elsewhere.

And why is that?

 

[baphomet]

Raw specs on a native application maybe it's comparable but this is presumably HLE so that's a big hit to performance,

It's not HLE, it's a compatibility layer. Unless it's programmed by a bunch of hacks it's not going to have any sort of significant hit to performance.

 

[Mithos]

OK... I'll do it...

How much is that Apple M2 Max computer its running on?
I really have no idea, I have only ever seen those druggedinduced prices like 3500usd for a vr headset or 6000-7000usd for a computer prices, so...

 

[LazyParrot]

it does make it trivially easy for someone to make a wrapper around a Windows game and run it on mac, so that scene is set to blow up.

People said the same thing when Apple moved to Intel CPUs. Mac desktop gaming is never going to blow up.

 

[Bry0]

Looks like it's at 1512x982 (16:10). But with maxed out settings.

I'm sure it could retain 60fps at 4k type resolutions at medium settings.

Not necessarily. Someone who was running cyberpunk at around 40 fps said changing from all high to low had basically no effect, probably bottlenecked by the translation.

 

[TrebleShot]

Gonna be sweet when Mac OS is running this at 120fps in something the size of a Mac Mini and PCMR nerds start cranking the numbers.

"BUT I CAN RUN THIS AT 240fps on my 4090"

Ok grand dad take your RGB and shove it.

 

[Leo9]

those claims were complete PR bulllshit by Apple. the speed comparison to a 3080ti were based on video editing and rendering performance, which the M2 has dedicated hardware for.

in real world performance in general applications it's like a 1050 or something

It's much faster than a 1050. And Apple compared the M1 Ultra to the 3090, not the M2. The Ultra has a 8 times bigger GPU compared to the basic chip.

 

[scydrex]

Easy lets wait and see what happens with Death Stranding should be a good example.

 

[Kilau]

It's not HLE, it's a compatibility layer. Unless it's programmed by a bunch of hacks it's not going to have any sort of significant hit to performance.

Got it, I guess it was the Ultra that had that claim but that was clearly PR nonsense in regards to gaming

 

[Spukc]

That's an m2 Max bro
Let is see it run on the m1 or m1 pro

 

[TVexperto]

That's an m2 Max bro
Let is see it run on the m1 or m1 pro

check the subreddit

 

[Spukc]

The Battlenet launcher has some issues, but D4 seems to be running well.

You must have an apple silicon mac running the macOS Sonoma beta.

Download the game porting toolkit from

Sign In - Apple

idmsa.apple.com

Mount the dmg and open Read Me.rtf; follow steps 1-3 to install the game porting toolkit.

Download the battlenet windows installer from here

Copy the installer into the wine prefix, if you followed the instructions from the readme you can use this command:

cp ~/Downloads/Battle.net-Setup.exe ~/my-game-prefix/drive_c/users/crossover/Downloads/

Before you start the installer, the windows build number needs to be updated or D4 won't launch. Use these commands to update the registry inside of the wine prefix:

WINEPREFIX=~/my-game-prefix `brew --prefix game-porting-toolkit`/bin/wine64 reg add 'HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion' /v CurrentBuild /t REG_SZ /d 19042 /f
WINEPREFIX=~/my-game-prefix `brew --prefix game-porting-toolkit`/bin/wine64 reg add 'HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion' /v CurrentBuildNumber /t REG_SZ /d 19042 /f
WINEPREFIX=~/my-game-prefix `brew --prefix game-porting-toolkit`/bin/wineserver -k

Finally, launch the battlenet installer:

/Volumes/Game\ Porting\ Toolkit-1.0/gameportingtoolkit ~/my-game-prefix "C:\users\crossover\Downloads\Battle.net-Setup.exe"

The battlenet launcher will only open properly for me by running the installer again, but doesn't seem to impact gameplay





Apple dev account still is 100 dollars right?

 

[poodaddy]

Gonna be sweet when Mac OS is running this at 120fps in something the size of a Mac Mini and PCMR nerds start cranking the numbers.

"BUT I CAN RUN THIS AT 240fps on my 4090"

Ok grand dad take your RGB and shove it.

I Swear Apple fans are just from another plane of existence man. Reality is a suggestion for you guys.

 

[Spukc]

I Swear Apple fans are just from another plane of existence man. Reality is a suggestion for you guys.

Same could be said about fucking pc gamers getting micro-stutters on their 2.5K videocards. And jumping in day one broken ports.. so far most big releases launched broken.

Heck i got 2fps dips in scenes with dead space remake on a GPU twice the price of a ps5

 

[LordOfChaos]

I Swear Apple fans are just from another plane of existence man. Reality is a suggestion for you guys.

No sir we can buy Reality PRO now

 

[CuNi]

Gonna be sweet when Mac OS is running this at 120fps in something the size of a Mac Mini and PCMR nerds start cranking the numbers.

"BUT I CAN RUN THIS AT 240fps on my 4090"

Ok grand dad take your RGB and shove it.

The best thing about your post is, that the guy with his 4090 probably still ended up spending less than the Apple user, seeing how a Mac Pro costs 6999$

Spoiler: My genuine reaction

 

[Unknown?]

And why is that?

It's proprietary software and locks developers into one OS unless you have work a rounds like this but they usually aren't as good as native.

PC gamers talk a lot about not wanting to be in walled gardens but they sure eat up the locked down software.

 

[Syphon Filter]

emulating is ghetto, native is the way to go always.

 

[01011001]

It's much faster than a 1050. And Apple compared the M1 Ultra to the 3090, not the M2. The Ultra has a 8 times bigger GPU compared to the basic chip.

and that comparison was bullshit. the performance claims were based on video editing alone.
and no it's not much faster than a 1050. maybe 1060 territory

 

[LordOfChaos]

The best thing about your post is, that the guy with his 4090 probably still ended up spending less than the Apple user, seeing how a Mac Pro costs 6999$

Spoiler: My genuine reaction

Which is the same chip as you can get in the Mac Studio. You don't need the Mac Pro, you can't even add GPUs to it, unless you have specialized IO needs in audio production/networking or something.

M2 Max Studio costs 2000, M2 Ultra $4K.

Buy Mac Studio

Get a new Mac Studio desktop with M4 Max or M3 Ultra from only $166.58 per month. Select a model or customize your own. Buy now at apple.com.

www.apple.com

Would I advise someone buy one for gaming? Hell no. Would it be nice to be able to game on the powerful GPU you've already spent money on for video editing/development/ML use etc? Yes.

I feel like we should be grown enough to not have to have this conversation every time, but I digress.

 

[Negotiator101]

It's proprietary software and locks developers into one OS unless you have work a rounds like this but they usually aren't as good as native.

PC gamers talk a lot about not wanting to be in walled gardens but they sure eat up the locked down software.

No benefits at all?

 

[poodaddy]

No sir we can buy Reality PRO now

 

[Leo9]

and that comparison was bullshit. the performance claims were based on video editing alone.
and no it's not much faster than a 1050. maybe 1060 territory

What SoC is in 1060 territory? M2? M2 Max, M1 Ultra?
This is a Tomb Raider Benchmark:

M1 launched in 2020 running a non native game:

 

[Trogdor1123]

What happened to everyone saying a M2 destroyed a 3080ti?

Looks more like a 980ti.

Edit - Looked it up, a 980ti actually significantly outperforms this with max settings.

That was the super duper max one, this is just the vanilla one.

 

[Shadowstar39]

People said the same thing when Apple moved to Intel CPUs. Mac desktop gaming is never going to blow up.

Especially not at their crazy price points and closed systems. I can't stand Apple anymore. Its sad as my first computer was an Apple IIc, where I learned basic until getting a hand me down 8088, the apple ii had better graphics and games at the time, plus it was priced around 1k. Apple under Jobs and Wozniak was originally about computers for the masses. It morphed into what we have now with Cook making products for the "elite" or "Faithful" to their cult.
It was downhill for apple the moment it took out expansion slots.

I was gifted an intel mac mini (2012 era) for porting apps to ios. After a few years it wouldn't work with most applications as apple wouldn't allow system upgrades. Windows at least lasts 10 years or so for hardware and probably longer unofficially as you can still install windows xp, 98, 7 etc.. on a modern machine. I wound up daul booting into linux on it so it could have some use. Little sucker is sitting on my desk as a stand for my wireless phone charger.

So even when Apple does make machines for the masses (mac mini, ipod) they throttle them after a few years, forcing obsolescence. Its ridiculous and the faithful cult members will defend them. Sorry but I refuse to buy any apple product again. Maybe if Tim Cook gets the axe and they have a decent no totalitarian CEO who opens the platform for programmers and gamers and not the walled garden approach then I will give them another chance.

Bottom line, crazy prices, closed system = only for elites or cult members. The masses will ignore them and this will not be the gaming juggernaut ever.



(i just did the math for a mac mini, damn things are a rip off. They start at $599 which seems reasonable, but thats with 8gb ram and 256gb hd. To make it 16gb it adds $200. To make it 1tb ssd its +400. Thats now $1200. Crazy. You can get two sticks of ddr4 for $30-50, a 1tb drive can be found for 50-60 now. They charge $600 for that.... again F apple and the greedy snobby ceo. Apple died with Jobs. )

 

[Irobot82]

1512 x 982.
Sub 1080p.

 

[M1chl]

I knew about this before you did

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/appl...-mac-gaming-benchmarks.1650655/post-267802209

But obviously, I don't work directly at apple, still had to honor NDA.

 

[Spukc]

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

1512x982

so a $3000+ laptop can play a game at ~60fps at nintendo switch resolutions

an rtx 4080 @ 1080p ultra gets ~370fps.
...and 1080p, the garbage resolution that it is, is ~40% higher than 1512x982.

 

[CuNi]

Which is the same chip as the Mac Studio. You don't need the Pro, you can't even add GPUs to it, unless you have specialized IO needs in audio production/networking or something.

M2 Max Studio costs 2000, M2 Ultra $4K.

Buy Mac Studio

Get a new Mac Studio desktop with M4 Max or M3 Ultra from only $166.58 per month. Select a model or customize your own. Buy now at apple.com.

www.apple.com

Would I advise someone buy one for gaming? Hell no. Would it be nice to be able to game on the powerful GPU you've already spent money on for video editing/development/ML use etc? Yes.

I feel like we should be grown enough to not have to have this conversation every time, but I digress.

Saying the M2 Max is the same chip as the M2 Ultra is only correct in Name.
The Ultra has 2x as many GPU-cores, which will most likely have a 60%+ performance difference.
You can buy a high-end PC for $4k.


And besides that, my comment was not even implying that I don't want anyone to be able to game on a Mac.
Did you even take a second to see who I was responding to, or why did you try to argue with me about something I never even said?
I'm all for Linux and Mac's getting finally more support when it comes to gaming. Those users have been neglected for way too long.

 

[GeorgioCostanzaX]

This could be huge if the UI makes it as easy as it is to run Windows content through proton on Steam Deck. I've had flawless experiences with games like Overwatch 2 and Diablo 4 apparently runs well…I just haven't bought it yet since I'm pacing myself with Zelda.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Saying the M2 Max is the same chip as the M2 Ultra is only correct in Name.
The Ultra has 2x as many GPU-cores, which will most likely have a 60%+ performance difference.
You can buy a high-end PC for $4k.


And besides that, my comment was not even implying that I don't want anyone to be able to game on a Mac.
Did you even take a second to see who I was responding to, or why did you try to argue with me about something I never even said?
I'm all for Linux and Mac's getting finally more support when it comes to gaming. Those users have been neglected for way too long.

That's cool but that's not what I said fam

The Mac Pro and the Mac Studio share the same M2 Ultra chip at the top, and by default for the Mac Pro. You don't need to go to the Mac Pro to get it. There's no GPU expansion on the Mac Pro, so you only really need that for very specialized cases. Your comment was about the Mac Pro costing $6999, which is almost irrelevant to this discussion.

2000 for the Mac Studio with M2 Max, which considering that includes the CPU, GPU, RAM, SSD, chassis, cooling, isn't too crazy. 4000 to get that M2 Ultra you mentioned, which is 3000 less than the Mac Pro you referenced for it on price.