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[Opiate]

Yesterday you said that D2 had its longevity due to trading and D2JSP users. You also stated that D2 was ridiculously easy for those people. If difficulty is directly tied to longevity, then why does D2 have such good longevity?

Because of traders. I specifically stated that the ease of difficulty was bad for traders, but they stuck around anyway because the basic loot/trade system was so good, and were D2's longest term customers.

Maybe the fun isn't tied directly to difficulty, but is instead tied to the gameplay loop being fun, and the drops being rewarding.

It's all of the above, I think. Something which isn't difficult but is fun can be completed very quickly almost by definition, and anything that can be completed quickly obviously won't last as long. But again, trading and PvP may sustain it despite this.

The 100 yard dash is popular not because it's difficult to make it 100 yards, but because it is difficult to make it 100 yards in under 10 seconds. That's the endgame of D2. And it has kept those people that you believe Blizzard designed D3 around hooked for years.

This isn't what kept most people playing, it was mostly trading and PvP. The actual game content itself was almost meaningless precisely because it was so easy. I was hoping that increased difficulty could give the gameplay itself meaning (in addition to AH/RMAH/PvP), but perhaps that won't be the case, we'll see.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

+1 Resist = +10 Intelligence = +10 Strength = +10 Armor.

10 * Resists = Armor is roughly what you want to have. 400 Resists / 4000 Armor (25% Damage taken) is better than 200 Resist / 6000 Armor (31% Damage taken).

Edit: And the damage taken formula would just be multiplying it out:

Damage Dealt * (1 - ArmorDR%) * (1 - ResistanceDR%) * (1 - OtherDR%)

Nice! I'll be trying to adjust my gear to meet this ratio later.

 

[NaturalHigh]

Edit: I hate having to use photobucket at work. What a bunch of trash.

 

[NG28]

I'm so happy to hear about 1.03. The game was amazing up until inferno Act 2, and then just fell apart for me and guy I coop with. Most of these changes were sorely needed, especially the damage scaling in groups. Barb I played with would go full tank and still get demolished.

 

[Hazaro]

Oh man, the Monk section of the Bnet forums are hilarious. They read that IAS was going to be changed a bunch of folks are like "They're nerfing Monk!"

Nerfing my crit/IAS build that spams spirit so yeah I'm pretty sad.

Now I probably have to play the dumb armor/dodge primary like most people do. Give me my 3 attack speed, LoH, and 15 spirit per crit with a 20% crit rate.

 

[Interfectum]

Because of traders. I specifically stated that the ease of difficulty was bad for traders, but they stuck around anyway because the basic loot/trade system was so good, and were D2's longest term customers.

I don't think people will stick around for the AH after they tire of the gameplay in D3. There was a social element to item trading in D2 that is missing here. In D3 it's just pages and pages of some of the best gear in the game instantly available. Kind renders the loot lust pointless to a degree.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

This is what inferno already is, I believe.

my point is that BOTH sides are right though. Is that not important? I think both sides of the argument deserve something, because they both have valid points. So offer a normal difficulty progression for the main game. And for the people who demand INSANE difficulty level, give them that bonus mode. Effectively that mode will be what inferno was pre 1.0.3 patch except harder, because as you said, it's clear it's too easy for some people. And that and PvP should keep them occupied with a goal to work towards.

Meanwhile people on the side of inferno being fucking bullshit, will get what they want.

 

[Opiate]

I can only assume that some posters think that Diablo 2's "longevity" consisted of a bunch of people playing it on and off, maybe dusting the game off every few years and beating it again with friends.

This is not the case. The people who kept the game going often played it consistently for a decade, perhaps with a few breaks, but generally with a good deal of consistency. These people were not there to dust off the old Diablo 2 copy and beat it again, but to PvP and trade at very high levels. They played it like one might play an FPS at high levels; it was their game of choice for years on end.

This may not be you, personally. It also isn't me. But these people were the meat of the Diablo 2 empire, not the people who simply played it as a "loot whore" game with a small group of friends or even alone.

 

[Drkirby]

I like what I am seeing about the 1.0.3 changes. All champs packs dropping a Rare once you get to 5 stacks will likely shift people from doing Warden/Butcher Runs to entire act runs.

 

[inky]

The problem is that the spike in difficulty is not overcome by getting regular updated gear and more skill, just top of the line gear and little to no skill (most of the time).

I suppose there is some sort of skill in playing the AH and getting sufficient gear to make the game easy, but there are so many ways they could make the game more interesting and harder (more effects on enemies, better affixes on legendary items in which you give up some stats for other more powerful ones, different enemy priorities, etc.) without actually just having to buff or nerf linearly (like party damage).

I like what I am seeing about the 1.0.3 changes. All champs packs dropping a Rare once you get to 5 stacks will likely shift people from doing Warden/Butcher Runs to entire act runs.

That's a good thing I think, especially a guaranteed rare. Yesterday I was getting crap from elites (little to no rares) with 260 MF. At that point, why did I even bother building NV stacks and not go straight for the bosses.

 

[cpp_is_king]

+1 Resist = +10 Intelligence = +10 Strength = +10 Armor.

10 * Resists = Armor is roughly what you want to have. 400 Resists / 4000 Armor (25% Damage taken) is better than 200 Resist / 6000 Armor (31% Damage taken).

Edit: And the damage taken formula would just be multiplying it out:

Damage Dealt * (1 - ArmorDR%) * (1 - ResistanceDR%) * (1 - OtherDR%)

For the bolded part, are you sure that's how it works? Let's say, for example, that I have a two pieces of equipment with 4% reduced damage from melee, and I also have Ignore Pain up with is 65% reduced damage. Are you saying that the last term would be (1 - .73)? Or would it be (1 - .04)(1 - .04)(1 - .65)?

I like what I am seeing about the 1.0.3 changes. All champs packs dropping a Rare once you get to 5 stacks will likely shift people from doing Warden/Butcher Runs to entire act runs.

To be more precise, it says all champs will drop an additional rare. So it's a straight up buff, take whatever you currently get from champs with 5 stacks of NV (which is quite often a rare), and just stick another rare on top of it.

 

[Opiate]

my point is that BOTH sides are right though. Is that not important? I think both sides of the argument deserve something, because they both have valid points. So offer a normal difficulty progression for the main game. And for the people who demand INSANE difficulty level, give them that bonus mode. Effectively that mode will be what inferno was pre 1.0.3 patch except harder, because as you said, it's clear it's too easy for some people. And that and PvP should keep them occupied with a goal to work towards.

Meanwhile people on the side of inferno being fucking bullshit, will get what they want.

Okay, but we'll need better loot for that very very very hard mode, right? Because this is a loot game, difficulty progression is intrinsically tied to loot progression.

And then the people who want an easier inferno mode will want that loot from the harder inferno. And so they will try that harder inferno, and suddenly "inferno inferno" will be what regular inferno was already supposed to be: an optional difficulty for people who wanted to continue to progress beyond 60.

 

[Zuly]

Edit: I hate having to use photobucket at work. What a bunch of trash.

Blizzard General

 

[TommyT]

I like what I am seeing about the 1.0.3 changes. All champs packs dropping a Rare once you get to 5 stacks will likely shift people from doing Warden/Butcher Runs to entire act runs.

Nope. Warden to Butcher to Ponies!

 

[Cipherr]

my point is that BOTH sides are right though? Is that not important? I think both sides of the argument deserve something, because they both have valid points. So offer a normal difficulty progression for the main game. And for the people who demand INSANE difficulty level, give them that bonus mode. Effectively that mode will be what inferno was pre 1.0.3 patch except harder, because as you said, it's clear it's too easy for some people. And that and PvP should keep them occupied with a goal to work towards.

Meanwhile people on the side of inferno being fucking bullshit, will get what they want.

I think you are talking past each other.

So offer a normal difficulty progression for the main game. And for the people who demand INSANE difficulty level, give them that bonus mode.

The point is that they have already done this. Its already in game. Its not something that needs to be added. Inferno is the 'Bonus Mode'.

 

[Fenderputty]

Because of traders. I specifically stated that the ease of difficulty was bad for traders, but they stuck around anyway because the basic loot/trade system was so good, and were D2's longest term customers.



It's all of the above, I think. Something which isn't difficult but is fun can be completed very quickly almost by definition, and anything that can be completed quickly obviously won't last as long. But again, trading and PvP may sustain it despite this.



This isn't what kept most people playing, it was mostly trading and PvP. The actual game content itself was almost meaningless precisely because it was so easy. I was hoping that increased difficulty could give the gameplay itself meaning (in addition to AH/RMAH/PvP), but perhaps that won't be the case, we'll see.

I'm personally looking forward to a smoother transistion of difficulty. They feel like the difficulty on act 1 was good. I agree. I had to farm for a while. I'm up to the butcher and now need to farm some more to get my DPS up (I can survive until the whole floor burns just fine. He's got about 1/5 of his power left)

As long as the game ends at the difficulty it currently is at, just with smoother progression, I don't see the issue. I especially like that they're making farming elites and looting needed gear better as well. Should help with that transistion and reduce that "spike".

 

[DSmalls84]

I can only assume that some posters think that Diablo 2's "longevity" consisted of a bunch of people playing it on and off, maybe dusting the game off every few years and beating it again with friends.

This is not the case. The people who kept the game going often played it consistently for a decade, perhaps with a few breaks, but generally with a good deal of consistency. These people were not there to dust off the old Diablo 2 copy and beat it again, but to PvP and trade at very high levels. They played it like one might play an FPS at high levels; it was their game of choice for years on end.

This may not be you, personally. It also isn't me. But these people were the meat of the Diablo 2 empire, not the people who simply played it as a "loot whore" game with a small group of friends or even alone.

I was definitely an on/off guy. Basically every couple of years one of my friends would start playing again and we would all roll new characters.

 

[cpp_is_king]

If anyone still doesn't believe that they're getting hacked because they used the same password twice, here is the latest proof of how big of a problem this is.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/06/technology/linkedin-password-hack/index.htm?hpt=hp_t3

 

[Risible]

This may not be you, personally. It also isn't me. But these people were the meat of the Diablo 2 empire, not the people who simply played it as a "loot whore" game with a small group of friends or even alone.

Opiate
Depressingly Realistic

 

[aliencowz7]

Okay, but we'll need better loot for that very very very hard mode, right? Because this is a loot game, difficulty progression is intrinsically tied to loot progression.

And then the people who want an easier inferno mode will want that loot from the harder inferno. And so they will try that harder inferno, and suddenly "inferno inferno" will be what regular inferno was already supposed to be: an optional difficulty for people who wanted to continue to progress beyond 60.

Have to agree with the sentiment behind opiates point here, You cant just lock away the hardest mode with the best stuff and expect people to not include it as part of the game they bought and feel entitled to being able to play it.

At the same time current inferno isn't really hard, it is unfair and requires overgearing content to complete. That in my eyes is practically the opposite of challenging gameplay and is just broken design.

If forced to choose between a game that's to easy but has a great sense of progression and fun gameplay or a game that kills me at every chance it gets but ends up feeling extra grindy and unfun without going outside of the normal measures I will choose the first every time.

In an ideal world there is a balance that is struck but I am not super confident that blizzard can strike that balance so I am happy they are going the way they are with 1.0.3 at least for the time being.

 

[Woo-Fu]

And this is why I worry about the RMAH. 1million gold = $15 dollars. If you had spent $50 on gear that became worthless, you'd be pretty pissed.

Worthless and worth less are two different things.

 

[scy]

Meanwhile people on the side of inferno being fucking bullshit, will get what they want.

I don't really think Inferno is really bullshit, though. Gearing for Inferno was pretty screwed up, yes, but I think the itemization fixes should be enough to compensate for that. Inferno itself actually all that terrible.

We'll see. I'd love an Inferno 2.0 if that's what it takes but I imagine we'd have the same discussion on it a month or so into it. "It's too hard!" despite the warning signs that Heroic Inferno is meant to be hard mode :x

 

[NaturalHigh]

A nerf to IAS isn't going to make an item with IAS "worthless".

Yes. Everyone needs to chill a bit. I personally would rather see the IAS nerf (reasonably speaking) than the LOH mechanic get squashed.

Edit: Ahh, who am I kidding?

Patch Notes 1.03a:

General: Life on hit will now instantly kill you if you equip an item that has this stat.

 

[Artanisix]

I spent millions on IAS gear.

get crunched. (<3)

Also PvP should be a massive help to the replayability of the game. I stuck to D2 for years just because of the PvP. I'm curious to see what kind of whacky builds can be made viable in D3, especially with the "unique and impressive" legendary buffs coming out.

 

[pigeon]

my point is that BOTH sides are right though. Is that not important? I think both sides of the argument deserve something, because they both have valid points. So offer a normal difficulty progression for the main game. And for the people who demand INSANE difficulty level, give them that bonus mode. Effectively that mode will be what inferno was pre 1.0.3 patch except harder, because as you said, it's clear it's too easy for some people. And that and PvP should keep them occupied with a goal to work towards.

Meanwhile people on the side of inferno being fucking bullshit, will get what they want.

As far as I can tell, you're literally describing Inferno. The game tops out at 60, after all, and you can get there without ever setting foot in Inferno. But obviously that wasn't good enough!

 

[scy]

For the bolded part, are you sure that's how it works? Let's say, for example, that I have a two pieces of equipment with 4% reduced damage from melee, and I also have Ignore Pain up with is 65% reduced damage. Are you saying that the last term would be (1 - .73)? Or would it be (1 - .04)(1 - .04)(1 - .65)?

I'm not sure what stuff doesn't count towards other DR but, yes, it's merely a summation of all your non-Armor, non-Resistances damage reduction bonuses. I believe the Barbarian and Monk 30% reduction is merely a global multiplier (so Damage Dealt * 0.7 at the start) rather than being put here.

 

[Opiate]

I'm personally looking forward to a smoother transistion of difficulty. They feel like the difficulty on act 1 was good. I agree. I had to farm for a while. I'm up to the butcher and now need to farm some more to get my DPS up (I can survive until the whole floor burns just fine. He's got about 1/5 of his power left)

As long as the game ends at the difficulty it currently is at, just with smoother progression, I don't see the issue. I especially like that they're making farming elites and looting needed gear better as well. Should help with that transistion and reduce that "spike".

I very much agree with this, and stated this earlier: I think we all agree that difficulty spikes are a bad thing. But the difficulty level is actually up for debate.

 

[scy]

All I know is that 1.0.3 means that my Act 1 farm runs will be Skeleton King+ rather than Manor+.

...well, assuming I'm still farming Act 1 in a few weeks.

 

[NaturalHigh]

get crunched. (<3)

Also PvP should be a massive help to the replayability of the game. I stuck to D2 for years just because of the PvP. I'm curious to see what kind of whacky builds can be made viable in D3, especially with the "unique and impressive" legendary buffs coming out.

PvP is going to be awesome in this game I can already tell. If they implement arena style I will be pleased. If they throw in some kind of crazy 8 on 8 battle ground. Woooo man.

So much potential, but it will require a lot of on going changes to different classes. See the history of WoW for proof. One good thing is the changes they make to each class as PvP evolves will require less accounting for PvE as D3 isn't an endgame PvE focused raiding environment like WoW.

 

[Opiate]

I was definitely an on/off guy. Basically every couple of years one of my friends would start playing again and we would all roll new characters.

I want to emphasize that there is no problem with this, and it's good that you enjoyed it that way, I'm just trying to point out that you weren't the backbone of the Diablo 2 empire, the players who kept the game consistently active with a decently large population for more than a decade.

That backbone consisted of the traders and PvPers who played constantly. That doesn't mean you don't matter and should not be catered to at all, I just want to keep things in perspective here.

 

[th3dude]

Can someone link to or copy paste 1.03 details? Also is there an ETA? Sorry looked back a few pages and didn't see anything.

Edit: found it

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Okay, but we'll need better loot for that very very very hard mode, right? Because this is a loot game, difficulty progression is intrinsically tied to loot progression.

And then the people who want an easier inferno mode will want that loot from the harder inferno. And so they will try that harder inferno, and suddenly "inferno inferno" will be what regular inferno was already supposed to be: an optional difficulty for people who wanted to continue to progress beyond 60.

well yeah that's right, they'll need to make it so you can farm act 4 inferno or act 1 in this supposed insane mode that I suggest they add, which should help people.

The only problem I see with this is people who are only into the main game will be underpowered compared to those who got better loot in that new insane mode, which would effect PvP. Unless they make it so it can match people up gear wise when you join a game or whatever.

Ahhh the problems the problems. Seems like you change 1 thing and so many other things get affected.

 

[redhot_]

Servers should be up in 10mins right?

 

[LordCanti]

Servers should be up in 10mins right?

"Should" being the key word.

 

[Jubbly]

Servers should be up in 10mins right?

You're funny.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

As far as I can tell, you're literally describing Inferno. The game tops out at 60, after all, and you can get there without ever setting foot in Inferno. But obviously that wasn't good enough!

but like someone said, when you get to 60 you want to be able to play the game more to be able to utilize what you have at that point, rather than being able to utilize it for one act, and then getting totally stone walled in the second.

This way when you start inferno, it'll be more challenging but not impossible for a lot of people to progress through, a more natural progression. But for those who enjoy being stone walled and having something insanely difficult to try and pass, they will have that bonus mode.

 

[UberTag]

Servers should be up in 10mins right?

Either that or they'll get delayed again.

 

[Opiate]

well yeah that's right, they'll need to make it so you can farm act 4 inferno or act 1 in this supposed insane mode that I suggest they add, which should help people.

The only problem I see with this is people who are only into the main game will be underpowered compared to those who got better loot in that new insane mode, which would effect PvP. Unless they make it so it can match people up gear wise when you join a game or whatever.

Ahhh the problems the problems. Seems like you change 1 thing and so many other things get affected.

Yes, it would be very complicated. And again, as an added wrinkle, I feel very confident that the people who did not play inferno-inferno would be jealous of the loot people got in that mode (it is a loot game, after all), and then would often want to play it themselves to get that loot, and then would complain that it is too hard.

I'm not saying your idea is completely impossible, but framing it just right would be very very hard.

 

[Kenaras]

So difficulty is not something you actually want; what you call being a "badass" I would just call a ridiculously easy game, and it significantly blunts the value of trading. Trading was actually a means of progression up to this point; while I doubt that will be completely obviated, it will certainly be muted.

This is personal preference, obviously, but I'd personally much prefer that acquiring new gear had an actual purpose (i.e. progression), instead of just being something you get so that you can kill Baal even faster than you already could.

Agreed. I keep seeing posts that the purpose of Diablo games was farming after you've already completed the hardest difficulty, but I haven't seen anyone make a good case for that. The vast majority of Diablo players never completed the hardest difficulty to begin with, much less farmed for gear afterwards.

Personally, I've always seen gear as a means to an end - both in Diablo games and in other RPGs. Once I've finished the most difficult challenge available in the game, gear starts to feel pretty meaningless. Grinding gear for PvP purposes has also never held much interest for me; I prefer my PvP on a level playing field.

 

[FieryBalrog]

I don't think people will stick around for the AH after they tire of the gameplay in D3. There was a social element to item trading in D2 that is missing here. In D3 it's just pages and pages of some of the best gear in the game instantly available. Kind renders the loot lust pointless to a degree.

We're already seeing bartering and forum trading being important, due to how clunky and difficult to use the AH is, plus 10 item limit, plus gold being inflated to worthlessness.

I'm intrigued by what the RMAH will bring.

 

[aliencowz7]

Agreed. I keep seeing posts that the purpose of Diablo games was farming after you've already completed the hardest difficulty, but I haven't seen anyone make a good case for that. The vast majority of Diablo players never completed the hardest difficulty to begin with, much less farmed for gear afterwards.

Personally, I've always seen gear as a means to an end - both in Diablo games and in other RPGs. Once I've finished the most difficult challenge available in the game, gear starts to feel pretty meaningless. Grinding gear for PvP purposes has also never held much interest for me; I prefer my PvP on a level playing field.

Problem is, that if D2 had been balanced around the people that just stopped playing after beating normal or nightmare or whatever then it never would of lasted as long as it did.

The majority may have not played that way but the majority of the active community that kept diablo 2 alive for 10+ years certainly did which is where that conversation stemmed from. From a game longetivity standpoint item farming post game is absolutely integral as is trading / pvp.

 

[kingofthedead45]

PvP is going to be awesome in this game I can already tell. If they implement arena style I will be pleased. If they throw in some kind of crazy 8 on 8 battle ground. Woooo man.

So much potential, but it will require a lot of on going changes to different classes. See the history of WoW for proof. One good thing is the changes they make to each class as PvP evolves will require less accounting for PvE as D3 isn't an endgame PvE focused raiding environment like WoW.

I believe they already stated that they were not going to do this, so don't get your hopes up

 

[redhot_]

"Should" being the key word.

You're funny.

Either that or they'll get delayed again.

Lol! wow. Crossing my fingers.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Yes, it would be very complicated. And again, as an added wrinkle, I feel very confident that the people who did not play inferno-inferno would be jealous of the loot people got in that mode (it is a loot game, after all), and then would often want to play it themselves to get that loot, and then would complain that it is too hard.

I'm not saying your idea is completely impossible, but framing it just right would be very very hard.

indeed it is. Luckily, they're getting paid to think about this stuff!

 

[scy]

I'm not saying your idea is completely impossible, but framing it just right would be very very hard.

I'd think that a proposed Heroic mode (or Inferno-Inferno, Inferno 2, whatever) would need a lot more individual player incentive. Bind on Pickup or "tokens" for clearing it to be redeemed (basically, the WoW badge model). Stuff outside the realm of the AH, essentially.

That or start limiting gear you can use to stuff you readily have access to.

I'm intrigued by what the RMAH will bring.

The "Seriously, get an Authenticator" warcry will become tremendous.

 

[LordCanti]

Servers go up...AH goes down.

 

[Credo]

It's up. I just got in.

 

[NaturalHigh]

I believe they already stated that they were not going to do this, so don't get your hopes up

Once PvP goes up, I don't care what they already said. I am 1000% sure people will bitch and they will have no choice but to adjust certain things. Maybe it will be the perfect balance right off the bat. Maybe all of the gripes players are having in PvE now are just results of Blizzard focusing more on PvP balance between classes and this causes us to have issues against monsters. Realistically though, they did not fine tune PvP (just look at how shit the balancing is now at launch) and they are going to have to adjust some stuff.

Ideally they didn't want to have to change mechanics of classes up but if they want PvP to thrive and people to continue to play their game then they are going to have to please the player base. Just my 2 cents.

 

[blackflag]

I just need invulnerable minions nerfed. That is the only thing I can not stand. It is so cheap. I can never even shoot the champ because the others are in the way.

 

[x3r0123]

i am still able to skip quests.....?