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[APerfectCircle]

You hear all the talk about Nintendo's big money coffer, into the billions, so how can it be seen as a good idea, for the platform recieving the least of 3rd party sapport, to sell a 2nd party and lose their releases. They gained 350 million, or however much they actually got, and lost the critical sapport they got on the N64. Nintendo games are great but are becoming less casual. Rare, through their N64 games, had the ability to do what Silicon Knights failed at, and thats selling mature rated games on nintendo platforms. Perfect dark coulda been a high profile FPS Gamecube/Revolution Exclusive, instead it will likely help Nintendo's competitor gain momentum next generation.

 

[Solid]

hmm..

 

[fse]

Maybe thats what Nintendo wants

 

[gogogow]

The most important up-coming game from Rare is probably PDzero. If that game is crap after so many years of developments, then NO, it didn't hurt Nintendo. But if the game is close to Halo, then.............MS is teh winner!

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

I don't think the loss is as big as it could have been, that's for sure.

Correction: could = should

 

[={<SMOKE>}=]

Nintendo apparently lost the only developer that knows how to use fur shading on the Gamecube.

that's funny coming from a guy with a dk:jb gif as his avatar. you might wanna look at the screens a little closer

 

[Buggy Loop]

Depends solely on what they did with the money they got from selling rare, which we dont know. If they used that money in the new tokyo 1st party studio, then imo, its a sweet deal, jungle beat being their first game, that studio has lots of potential.

 

[Broshnat]

IMO, Nintendo commited a mistake that will live to haunt them in the next generation.

Get a grip!!

Nintendo got rid of Rare because the quality of their games had dropped dramatically.

What was their last great game? Donkey Kong 64 in 99?

And their last true classic was, of course, Goldeneye.

If Rare still had the output now they had in the early years of the N64 then Nintendo would have missed them. But they obviously are having some serious problems right now, and as such, are no loss at all.

 

[gofreak]

Rare singlehandedly made N64 the console of choice for both shooter- and platformerfans.

I agree with most of the rest of what you said, but re. platformers, Nintendo single-handedly made the N64 the choice for platforming games with Mario64. Rare's efforts, as polished and as enjoyable as they were, were simply riding on the coat-tails of Mario (as every other 3D platformer since seems to).

Also, Nintendo seems to be moving away from investments and more towards (cheaper) agreements in order to bolster their "second party" library. Although the number of companies they've funded or started since the end of the N64's life would probably surprise you.

 

[missAran]

What you call an "oversight" i call foresight. It seems to me that Nintendo knew where Rare was headed and that is why they decided to part ways. From what we know now, it seems they made the right choice. I think Nintendo's mistake was not finding another developer to fill the gap not that this current Rare left, but the gap that Rare from the N64 days left.

Well, Rare's big contributions to the N64 is enough to convince me that its presence on the GameCube would be just as big. I don't think Rare's quality was going down, I don't think the company was faltering -- I merely think the company is taking a generation to get used to the big switch. Rare will be producing as many titles next gen as it did last time, but they probably won't be as good.

Still, a Banjo-Kazooie remake or sequel in addition to a Jet Force Gemini sequel would be stellar. I'm not sure why the company decided to released Grabbed by the Goulies as opposed to ones of its more established franchises.

 

[Teddman]

I think a new Conker and a Perfect Dark sequel could have been good for the GameCube. Especially if the new PD was really kickass, Nintendo could use a high-profile FPS for a change. Kameo probably also would have made it out by now on Cube.

But I doubt Rare would have released either in time for the GameCube's lifespan. Perfect Dark Next is still a year or so away, and a Conker Redux wouldn't make as much sense on GameCube, given that the original was on N64 and sold terribly to Nintendo's younger-skewing audience. It has the possibility of selling much better on Xbox with the online play appeal.

 

[Gchaime]

I don't think Rare's quality was going down, I don't think the company was faltering -- I merely think the company is taking a generation to get used to the big switch.

Other companies switch platforms, infact some comapnies even support several platforms at the same time *gasp*. All companies experience switching problems at the beginning of each new generation, but no other company uses an entire generation to get used to platform.

The platform switching can no longer be a valid excuse for there meager output.

 

[Prine]

yes.

perfect Dark Zero would be going up against Halo 2, it would have most certainly got more hype than MP2 or even Zelda.

Edit: Yet again i totally agree with Drohne

PD Zero running on Xbox 2 will hurt the fanboys and nintendo, MS are going to put all their marketing dollers behind it. Halo2 was huge, but a new MS console and a flagship launch game is going to be even bigger. They're going to market this shit out of it, and i for one can't to be part of it.

E3 will be all about Rares comeback

 

[Deg]

The original PD didnt even sell that well. Only about a million or two max. There were plenty of people saying they should do a fps but not use the PD franchise as it was lame.

 

[FriScho]

Rare is a joke these days. They are not the company that made Golde Eye. They are just some leftovers.

 

[SilvaHalo]

This was a lame overdone thread when you posted it over at CC the other day.....bringing it here didnt magically make it any better.

 

[missAran]

This was a lame overdone thread when you posted it over at CC the other day.....bringing it here didnt magically make it any better.

Get over yourself.

Other companies switch platforms, infact some comapnies even support several platforms at the same time *gasp*. All companies experience switching problems at the beginning of each new generation, but no other company uses an entire generation to get used to platform.

The platform switching can no longer be a valid excuse for there meager output.

I generally agree with you, it's a bit foolish to stumble based on a platform switch. But I think Rare is a bit different for a couple reasons: first of all it lost a LOT of employees and it also no longer had EAD/Nintendo as a crutch to lean on. Those things are a big deal and something that could shake a company up quite a bit.

I mean, if you look at Sega, it's clear that switiching to become merely a third-party developer changed its development entirely.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I don't think Perfect Dark is as wide known of a franchise as most people here seem to think it is. Specially with it's change to a "manga" look, I really don't think PDZ is going to be the huge killer app people are thinking it will be. Even if it's delayed till a Xenon launch title, people are going to be saying OMG Where's Halo 3, not OMG PDZ I HAVE TO GET AN XBOX2!!!

 

[gogogow]

MS is gonna turn PDZero into a killer app, just what MS did with Halo.
They are gonna put a shitload of hype to it, that it's surpasses any other franchise out there.

 

[DarienA]

If Rare's depature hurt Nintendo... who did it help?



Nobody... yet.....

 

[ge-man]

I agree with snapty and Ninja Scooter on this issue. The departure of RARE itself isn't a problem and frankly, I feel sorry for MS for being saddle with the company. There are persistant rumours about the rotten corporate culture at RARE, and I doubt that the company will every reclaim its stature without a serious shake down of the whole system.

On the other hand, the position of the Xbox today resembles that of the N64. RARE played a great role in that, so that void does hurt. However, keeping RARE would not have solved the problems Nintendo faces now. The most they would've got out of RARE if they had remained would be handful of mediocre to good games, when what the system really needed was a phenomenon like Goldeneye.

 

[Prine]

MS is gonna turn PDZero into a killer app, just what MS did with Halo.
They are gonna put a shitload of hype to it, that it's surpasses any other franchise out there.

Yep, considering its going to be launching with Xbox2, the hype will be incredible. People wont be calling for Halo3 just yet, after 2 years maybe. 1 year though? Hell no

Its a Rare game on next gen hardware, just imagine what the graphics will look like :drool

 

[soundwave05]

You can't just turn franchises into whatever you want like that.

I'm not even sure how Perfect Dark will play compared to the N64 and GoldenEye since much of the team is gone and the lead designer is at Zoonami now.

That said, I still think Nintendo needs a Rare-type of sidekick to make more edgy content like the Perfect Darks, Conkers, even the Blast Corps and Killer Instincts.

They're running into a wall with the type of marketing they want to do (cool) versus the type of content they're offering (mostly mascot based). You'll notice none of Nintendo's DS commercials show Super Mario 64 DS, it's all Metroid Prime Hunters, lol, which isn't even availible yet.

 

[gogogow]

You can't just turn franchises into whatever you want like that.

You can when your company is called Microsoft.
Look what they did with Halo, no one cared about that game when it was announced for the Xbox and PS2 years ago. Things changed when MS bought Bungie and turned Halo into the biggest franchise mankind have ever known.

 

[mumu]

Things changed when MS bought Bungie and turned Halo into the biggest franchise mankind have ever known.

Wooah easy there tiger

 

[soundwave05]

You can't, video game franchises like that happen sometimes by luck/timing as well.

Nintendo for instance could not turn Pikmin into another Pokemon/Mario type craze, even though they wanted to.

That's like saying James Cameron can make every movie as much of a phenonmenon as Titanic.

To make a more direct case in point, Perfect Dark on the N64 only sold about 1/5th of what GoldenEye did. A lot of people I've talked simply didn't like the whole future/Joanna thing versus James Bond/spy appeal that worked like a charm with 007.

Consumer culture just does not work that way. What the "next" hot thing is likely will be much different, that's just how trends work. The next big video game franchise is probably going to be something completely out of left field.

 

[sprsk]

You can when your company is called Microsoft.
Look what they did with Halo, no one cared about that game when it was announced for the Xbox and PS2 years ago. Things changed when MS bought Bungie and turned Halo into the biggest franchise mankind have ever known.

if it was on mac and pc still, no one would care.

 

[Razoric]

Haha, yeah, whatever. Loading off that worthless piece of hunk known as Rare is the best thing Nintendo could have done. They've gained Retro Studios in the process, which is 100x the developer Rare was in their prime.

Haha someone's bitter.

 

[gogogow]

I'm not a Halo fanboy, but 2,3 million copies sold within a day, surpassing GTA:SA, that's really something.
Just an example what MS can do with hype.

 

[soundwave05]

I'm not a Halo fanboy, but 2,3 million copies sold within a day, surpassing GTA:SA, that's really something.

Yeah which is something you just can't repeat on cue. You'd also have to assume Perfect Dark 0 would even be as good of a game as Halo 2, which with a chunk of the original team and (most importantly) the lead designer gone is highly questionable.

It should look nice, but MS has released a lot of titles this generation that look great (Crimson Skies, Sudeki, Project: Gotham Racing 2, Top Spin Tennis, Brute Force) that have done only so-so at retail. In fact, aside from Halo and Fable, they've struggled in this regard.

Sony made huge hits out of Gran Turismo, PaRappa, NFL Game Day, WipeOut, Destruction Derby, and several others when they launched Playstation.

 

[Redbeard]

Yeah which is something you just can't repeat on cue. You'd also have to assume Perfect Dark 0 would even be as good of a game as Halo 2, which with a chunk of the original team and (most importantly) the lead designer gone is highly questionable.

It should look nice, but MS has released a lot of titles this generation that look great (Crimson Skies, Sudeki, Project: Gotham Racing 2, Top Spin Tennis, Brute Force) that have done only so-so at retail. In fact, aside from Halo and Fable, they've struggled in this regard.

Sony made huge hits out of Gran Turismo, PaRappa, NFL Game Day, WipeOut, Destruction Derby, and several others when they launched Playstation.

I don't think it really matters if it's as good. As long as they can get people excited about it that's all they need to do, and I think PD0 has more potential in that respect than any of those other titles.

 

[gogogow]

All those Sony games u mentioned are dead, except GranTurismo.

You've forgot Splintercell. Not entirely exclusive, but time-exclusive, still PS2 and GC versions were different.
Chronicles of Riddick.

 

[soundwave05]

Splinter Cell and Chronicles of Riddick are not Microsoft games. That's like saying Resident Evil and Ridge Racer were Sony games.

Sony has a bad habit of letting popular franchises fizzle out, there I agree.

I just don't buy the "they did it before they can do it again!" type of a rationale. It's never worked in video games ...

Dark Stalkers was no Street Fighter 2

Perfect Dark was no GoldenEye

Pikmin was no Pokemon

State of Emergency was no Grand Theft Auto

Square has released a myriad of RPG series, none as popular as Final Fantasy

When you hit "pay dirt" with a phenomenon franchise, it usually doesn't happen again for a while. What you learn to do as a company is surround that hit franchise with lesser "supporting cast" titles ... kind of like building a pro sports team -- you have the one superstar (like Michael Jordan) and then you surround him with a good supporting cast.

 

[gogogow]

WipeOut and Destruction Derby ain't Sony games either
Made by Psygnosis, Reflections.
Sony bought Psygnosis changed name into Liverpool studios. Most people left though.
It doesn't matter wether the games are by MS or not, what i want to say is that MS can bring hype to their exclusive games.

BTW, Fable you mentioned is not from Microsoft either, it's developed by Lionhead studios.

 

[soundwave05]

Every developer can bring hype to their exclusive games. I mean sh-t, even Soul Calibur got a ton of press on the Dreamcast and sold a lot of copies over here.

What I'm saying though is you can't repeat "phenonmenon" type franchises at the snap of a finger.

Microsoft has had a huge success with Halo, but aside from that Fable and Project: Gotham Racing 1 are the only two hits they've had and neither are even close to being in the same categorey.

I bet Microsoft will issue a quickie Halo 2.5 for the XBox 2 launch or soon afterwards rather than just banking on Perfect Dark 0, assuming Rare would even be able to finish the damn thing on time :lol

 

[Kai Dracon]

IMHO, no. Rare remains overrated as a whole to me, and I can't imagine anything they'd put together being the equal of Nintendo's first party stuff, or of Retro/Nintendo. Honestly, while this dares to bring down Eternal Darkness hate and brimstone, ED was much better than most Rare work for Nintendo.

As already expressed here, Nintendo's biggest mistake has been not filling the void as well as they could have. Retro kicks ass, but the SK weirdness and messed up relationship was a big disappointment.

 

[Aizu_Itsuko]

Rare's departure has contributed to the general perception that Nintendo is losing ground in the console industry (or support, if you prefer), and that's the biggest problem Nintendo is going to face next-gen.

I've a lot of friends who really enjoy Nintendo games, but they say that they're not going to buy a GC just for their first party titles; the bad thing is that I think it's understable, especially for people who only buy one system each generation.

 

[soundwave05]

Nintendo losing ground in the console market is not a perception, it's a reality.

But the unfourtunate bottom line with Rare really is they've plummeted like crazy since about 1998. It's probably not a coincidence that that was when Martin Hollis (head of software development at Rare from 1994-1997 and lead designer of GoldenEye/Perfect Dark) left.

I really feel like Hollis was the glue that kept everything together during Rare's "golden days" between '94 and '97.

 

[Prine]

I'm not even sure how Perfect Dark will play compared to the N64 and GoldenEye since much of the team is gone and the lead designer is at Zoonami now.

The goldeneye team left just before Perfect Dark, and Martin Hollis left during the early stages of development on PD and it turned out fine. So i have no worries that PDZ will be incredible.

As for the Goldeneye team? Timesplitters is an absolute disaster. Siberia level was nice though

 

[soundwave05]

Martin Hollis left about half way though Perfect Dark, some people have stated on and off the record that that was a big part of the reason the game came out sorta "uneven" compared to GoldenEye.

Yeah I agree TimeSplitters was so-so.

But I think that shows Martin Hollis was really important to Rare overall. It's hard to deny that Rare from 1994-1997 is a vastly different developer than they were from 1998-2001. It's like the wheels just fell off the bus after Hollis left.

 

[Prine]

Conker was one of Rare greatest games

Edit: you forget that PDZ will be THE launch title for Xbox 2. That in itself is huge, as all flagship launch titles sell incredibly well. I expect it to follow a similar pattern to Halo (not as big as Halo, but suitable competition)

MS marketing + nextgen + PD zero = win

 

[Deleted member 1235]

It may have hurt them when that enourmous pile of money landed squarely on them, other than that, does rare actually make games?

 

[Shin Johnpv]

IMHO, no. Rare remains overrated as a whole to me, and I can't imagine anything they'd put together being the equal of Nintendo's first party stuff, or of Retro/Nintendo. Honestly, while this dares to bring down Eternal Darkness hate and brimstone, ED was much better than most Rare work for Nintendo.

As already expressed here, Nintendo's biggest mistake has been not filling the void as well as they could have. Retro kicks ass, but the SK weirdness and messed up relationship was a big disappointment.

I agree with this, for me ED was way better than anything Rare put out while a Nintendo Second Party, I really wish they kept things smooth with SK as I'd kill for an ED2

ED was one of my favorite games of this generation

 

[soundwave05]

Edit: you forget that PDZ will be THE launch title for Xbox 2. That in itself is huge, as all flagship launch titles sell incredibly well. I expect it to follow a similar pattern to Halo (not as big as Halo, but suitable competition)

Whoa, slow down there.

We don't know what *the* launch title for the XBox 2 will be. For all we know Bungie could quick release a Halo Double Pak or Halo 2.5 for launch or Rare could miss the XB2 launch, after all they missed the GCN launch for Star Fox Adventures by about a year.

Punctuality and Rare don't go hand in hand.

 

[Celicar]

I don't think Rare's departure hurt Nintendo at all. It actually helped them. They got a lot of cash from the sale, and look at what Rare has done lately. The Star Fox game they made bombed, so obviously people are sick of their games. That is true even on the xbox. No one watch GBTG, and I think the new Conker game will flop just as bad. People need to face it: Rare is dead.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Time Splitters 2 > Perfect Dark

the first Time Splitters was bad but the second one was a ton of fun and better than Perfect Dark for me

 

[celestial body]

Of course Hollis was important to PD but the actual lead designer (Tilston) is still there and heading PDZ and so is Botwood, who played a major role in the design of both GE and PD. Also the people from the "golden era" are still there bar a chunk of the old GE team. The real problem is whether they're any good or not these days.

 

[Prine]

For all we know Bungie could quick release a Halo Double Pak or Halo 2.5 for launch or Rare could miss the XB2 launch, after all they missed the GCN launch for Star Fox Adventures by about a year.

Punctuality and Rare don't go hand in hand.

Maybe, but that thing about Halo 2.5 is baloney, its not happening. Next Halo will be Halo 3.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Bungie allready said the next game they release wont be Halo 3, and last I heard Rare was still acting like PDZ was going to be an Xbox release

no one knows what Xbox2 or any of the other systems are going to launch with

 

[Prine]

Of course Hollis was important to PD but the actual lead designer (Tilston) is still there and heading PDZ and so is Botwood, who played a major role in the design of both GE and PD. Also the people from the "golden era" are still there bar a chunk of the old GE team. The real problem is whether they're any good or not these days.

Need to quote this, people keep ignoring the facts. Gonna bookmark this too for every Nintendo fan that keeps saying all the talent left Rare. The lead designer behind Conker is still at Rare correct? I think i read it in scribes 2 months ago