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[Zathalus]

This is the worse 1st party game ever running on an old version of UE and capped at 1080p. Who knows how it would runs with DRS or uncapped framerate or with a newer version of UE. Also the first UE game by that team.

Very good cherry picking ! And comparing uncapped PC vs capped console 60fps too. Old school, but always nice.

According to DF the 4070 Super is performing 45% better than PS5 in pure rasterization benchmark in a heavily GPU limited scene (a cutscene). This is real life comparison using a 4070 Super. You know usually it's better than paper specs.

You’re absolutely right. Cherry picking is bad.

 

[Gaiff]

You’re absolutely right. Cherry picking is bad.

Can’t have serious discussions with so many bad faith actors.

 

[FireFly]

I apologize.
It was actually this video with this dev starts@ 31 minutes in.

So I listened to the whole segment. Tom doesn't provide any rationale for Sony misrepresenting the performance of the PS5 Pro, other than the mention of "competition", which doesn't provide a reason for underselling the product to PS users.

His main rationale for believing performance will be faster, seems to be a supposed 20% IPC boost from RDNA 3+, when we see maybe a 5% increase on PC. And testimony from developers who are able to scale resolution beyond 45%. But Bryan already states in the video that performance doesn't scale linearly with resolution! So getting a greater than 45% increase in resolution would actually be expected. Tom also talks about developers being able to unlock framerates and hit 100 FPS, but you could do that from a baseline of 69 FPS with a 1.45X boost.

Bryan provides one argument for Sony not going for a higher performance figure, which is that they don't want to provide a target that developers won't necessarily be able to hit, leading to users feeling that they were mislead. That's a perfectly reasonable argument, but if we accept it, it means that Sony isn't confident of a >45% average boost, so we shouldn't be either.

Edit: It's also interesting that developers are choosing to base the PSSR upscale on Performance, not Quality settings, despite the cost of PSSR only being ~2ms. If the PS5 Pro is really much more powerful than we think and can be "unlocked" with no effort as Tom claims, then why are developers leaving all that extra performance on the table?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

So I listened to the whole segment. Tom doesn't provide any rationale for Sony misrepresenting the performance of the PS5 Pro, other than the mention of "competition", which doesn't provide a reason for underselling the product to PS users.

His main rationale for believing performance will be faster, seems to be a supposed 20% IPC boost from RDNA 3+, when we see maybe a 5% increase on PC. And testimony from developers who are able to scale resolution beyond 45%. But Bryan already states in the video that performance doesn't scale linearly with resolution! So getting a greater than 45% increase in resolution would actually be expected. Tom also talks about developers being able to unlock framerates and hit 100 FPS, but you could do that from a baseline of 69 FPS with a 1.45X boost.

Bryan provides one argument for Sony not going for a higher performance figure, which is that they don't want to provide a target that developers won't necessarily be able to hit, leading to users feeling that they were mislead. That's a perfectly reasonable argument, but if we accept it, it means that Sony isn't confident of a >45% average boost, so we shouldn't be either.

Totally agree there is nothing in that video to actually suggest why Sony is being conservative other than no competition which is silly

And this is being debated by 2 guys that will never work on a PS5 Pro devkit and just fishing for clicks

And he wants me to run it past actual people in the business

 

[RaySoft]

You can see posted above that PS5 performs pretty much like 6700, PC GPU that is few % faster in specs.

So where is this hidden power of a console? So far 9th gen consoles perform almost exactly like their isolated GPUs.

If consoles were punching above their weight every game would perform like the last of us part 1 - dog shit and embarrassing port that ps fanboys love so much. But this game is the exception.

Yes, probably most games, at least multiplatform ones, are rather generically made. 1st party games tend to utilize the ps5 capabilities more, and that can lead to porting difficulties. It's a cost issue.

 

[Bojji]

Yes, probably most games, at least multiplatform ones, are rather generically made. 1st party games tend to utilize the ps5 capabilities more, and that can lead to porting difficulties. It's a cost issue.

I don't see it. in PS3 days first party devs were doing magic on cell processor but what they can do on standard x86 CPU and GPU that is easy to utilize?

Best looking games this gen are third party games, Sony devs are surprisingly stuck in the past in this aspect.

 

[Calverz]

I just realised but has there been confirmation of a black ops6 pro patch?

 

[PaintTinJr]

If anything, the PS5's version cloud density is lower in this shot. This is on a 4090 at max settings.

It is, but the cloud is cheap processing and occludes the missing precision of the more expensive shading/lighting of foreground geometry and hides potentially low quality light leakage precision issues on the RX6700 as this image below shows can happen.
(https://dev.epicgames.com/documenta...ails-in-unreal-engine?application_version=5.5)

but doesn't in your shot, because it is interesting that at max settings on a 4090 the foreground detail of the model of character despite the clouding matches the PS5 - as shown in my processed version of your shot below.

Why at max settings on your RTX 4090 the further draw distance on PS5 is missing at the non-occluded sides of the cloud, I can't say. Feels like either an optimised PS5 SDK cascaded frusta situation with UE5 that isn't on PC because it isn't an API feature on PC, and doing manually as a painter's algorithm would be very inefficient, or you've missed enabling a setting, or it is a PC bug with the game even on your 4090 settings.

 

[Zathalus]

Well "you'll have to prove it" if you want me to go along with that - so I could properly look at the un-occluded detail of the alleged "equal" RX6700 PC.

Well here is a 6900 on the high preset and 1080p (top image) vs the PS5. Seems about the same with the character being covered in clouds:

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I just realised but has there been confirmation of a black ops6 pro patch?

We have nothing official yet

 

[PaintTinJr]

Well here is a 6900 on the high preset and 1080p (top image) vs the PS5. Seems about the same with the character being covered in clouds:

I have my doubts the second image is from the PS5 for a multitude of reasons....

but the main reason is that after processing each image and skipping back and forth, the image doesn't really move, as though the only difference is the fog cover from a 1-3 frame offset, which after processing makes the second image slightly better and less over sharpened at the end but effectively identical images other than that. The cynic in me says the odds of getting both systems within even 5frames of each other by non faceoff Pros like DF in a game running a 60fps looks highly suspicious, and I didn't even know you had any AMD cards, let alone a RX6900, and that before truly considering any of the other reasons I didn't feel the image was probably from a PS5.

What's the deal? How did you align the games on two different systems with two different frame-rates and slightly different rendering and get them almost on the same frame and so close they almost overlap pixel for pixel?

 

[ChiefDada]

Edit: It's also interesting that developers are choosing to base the PSSR upscale on Performance, not Quality settings, despite the cost of PSSR only being ~2ms. If the PS5 Pro is really much more powerful than we think and can be "unlocked" with no effort as Tom claims, then why are developers leaving all that extra performance on the table?

This is what I've been talking about. I think these new modes we've been seeing from Sony are replacing the old performance modes and will likely run 100-120fps. We haven't seen much from the new fidelity modes yet. But something like F1 24 where the game can run 8k30 (upscaled from native 4k) with all RT features should give us an idea of just how much power is available.

I'd like to better understand where/how the additional 45% GPU power is being applied because many of the games implementing PSSR have simply adopted the performance mode of base PS5 without improving graphics. In the case of TLOU, what once took them 16.67ms/frame should now take them 11.5ms/frame; taking 2ms PSSR budget into account, that would equate to a theoretical render budget of 13.5ms with 3ms+ to spare, which is a LOT for 60fps budget. Now someone may counter by saying "up to 45% GPU lift", but my response would be that both TLOU Remastered and TLOU Pt. 1 both run ~75fps range most of the time so I am actually being conservative with my numbers (By extension, we should be seeing TLOU games easily running 100fps+ on average in the modes DF has been testing).

For games like Spider-Man and Ratchet, it's even more mind boggling because they already had render budget reserved for ITGI, so net PSSR cost should be more favorable. So again I ask, where is the additional power going??

 

[Zathalus]

I have my doubts the second image is from the PS5 for a multitude of reasons....

but the main reason is that after processing each image and skipping back and forth, the image doesn't really move, as though the only difference is the fog cover from a 1-3 frame offset, which after processing makes the second image slightly better and less over sharpened at the end but effectively identical images other than that. The cynic in me says the odds of getting both systems within even 5frames of each other by non faceoff Pros like DF in a game running a 60fps looks highly suspicious, and I didn't even know you had any AMD cards, let alone a RX6900, and that before truly considering any of the other reasons I didn't feel the image was probably from a PS5.

What's the deal? How did you align the games on two different systems with two different frame-rates and slightly different rendering and get them almost on the same frame and so close they almost overlap pixel for pixel?

? It’s just YouTube captures, just skip forward frame by frame and make sure that both have the same resolution. One was from a let’s play with a 6900 and the other a PS5. Then simply use the snipping tool and upload online.

 

[PaintTinJr]

? It’s just YouTube captures, just skip forward frame by frame and make sure that both have the same resolution. One was from a let’s play with a 6900 and the other a PS5. Then simply use the snipping tool and upload online.

okay so you didn't capture them yourself, that makes sense that veracity of them needs verified.

If you post the links that would be great, as I really don't believe that is a PS5 image and want to go check the source myself.

 

[Zathalus]

okay so you didn't capture them yourself, that makes sense that veracity of them needs verified.

If you post the links that would be great, as I really don't believe that is a PS5 image and want to go check the source myself.

It was from one of these:







I went through several videos trying to align the shots as close as possible, but no idea which one exactly as I didn’t label anything. Those were the ones in my browser history though.

 

[PaintTinJr]

It was from one of these:







I went through several videos trying to align the shots as close as possible, but no idea which one exactly as I didn’t label anything. Those were the ones in my browser history though.

I think you've accidentally uploaded two PC shots. never mind - life's too short - it isn't worth either of our time trying to find what you thought you captured when we can't even step through youtube videos at sub-second internals AFAIK.

 

[FrankWza]

What better way to sell a $700 product than to undersell its capabilities? Companies are totally not known to EXAGGERATE in order to boost sales, but honest guy Sony is so concerned about its customers that it does the opposite.

This happened when the PS5 and Series launched. 60 million sales @$500 and a price increase later the undersell worked and the oversale didn't. Again.
Whenever Cerny does talk about something (ssd,vss) they get secret sauce comments. So, as usual, they'll let the performance and games speak for them. DF is already changing their tune and more will follow

 

[PaintTinJr]

This happened when the PS5 and Series launched. 60 million sales @$500 and a price increase later the undersell worked and the oversale didn't. Again.
Whenever Cerny does talk about something (ssd,vss) they get secret sauce comments. So, as usual, they'll let the performance and games speak for them. DF is already changing their tune and more will follow

One of the things that occurred to me, is that DLSS always talked about 8K training IIRC, because to upscale to 4K as a super sample the training needs to be higher resolution than the output....so if PSSR has 8K modes and had that planned from the start, maybe that means PSSR has been trained on 16K, which again would explain how PSSR image quality with a seemingly great algorithm is absolutely impressing the former sceptics IMO