• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

[Digital Foundry] New PS5 Pro GPU details emerge - including a 2.35GHz max boost clock

Zathalus

Member
This is the worse 1st party game ever running on an old version of UE and capped at 1080p. Who knows how it would runs with DRS or uncapped framerate or with a newer version of UE. Also the first UE game by that team.

Very good cherry picking ! And comparing uncapped PC vs capped console 60fps too. Old school, but always nice.

According to DF the 4070 Super is performing 45% better than PS5 in pure rasterization benchmark in a heavily GPU limited scene (a cutscene). This is real life comparison using a 4070 Super. You know usually it's better than paper specs.

Bench4.jpg
You’re absolutely right. Cherry picking is bad.
 

FireFly

Member
I apologize.
It was actually this video with this dev starts@ 31 minutes in.
So I listened to the whole segment. Tom doesn't provide any rationale for Sony misrepresenting the performance of the PS5 Pro, other than the mention of "competition", which doesn't provide a reason for underselling the product to PS users.

His main rationale for believing performance will be faster, seems to be a supposed 20% IPC boost from RDNA 3+, when we see maybe a 5% increase on PC. And testimony from developers who are able to scale resolution beyond 45%. But Bryan already states in the video that performance doesn't scale linearly with resolution! So getting a greater than 45% increase in resolution would actually be expected. Tom also talks about developers being able to unlock framerates and hit 100 FPS, but you could do that from a baseline of 69 FPS with a 1.45X boost.

Bryan provides one argument for Sony not going for a higher performance figure, which is that they don't want to provide a target that developers won't necessarily be able to hit, leading to users feeling that they were mislead. That's a perfectly reasonable argument, but if we accept it, it means that Sony isn't confident of a >45% average boost, so we shouldn't be either.

Edit: It's also interesting that developers are choosing to base the PSSR upscale on Performance, not Quality settings, despite the cost of PSSR only being ~2ms. If the PS5 Pro is really much more powerful than we think and can be "unlocked" with no effort as Tom claims, then why are developers leaving all that extra performance on the table?
 
Last edited:

HeisenbergFX4

Gold Member
So I listened to the whole segment. Tom doesn't provide any rationale for Sony misrepresenting the performance of the PS5 Pro, other than the mention of "competition", which doesn't provide a reason for underselling the product to PS users.

His main rationale for believing performance will be faster, seems to be a supposed 20% IPC boost from RDNA 3+, when we see maybe a 5% increase on PC. And testimony from developers who are able to scale resolution beyond 45%. But Bryan already states in the video that performance doesn't scale linearly with resolution! So getting a greater than 45% increase in resolution would actually be expected. Tom also talks about developers being able to unlock framerates and hit 100 FPS, but you could do that from a baseline of 69 FPS with a 1.45X boost.

Bryan provides one argument for Sony not going for a higher performance figure, which is that they don't want to provide a target that developers won't necessarily be able to hit, leading to users feeling that they were mislead. That's a perfectly reasonable argument, but if we accept it, it means that Sony isn't confident of a >45% average boost, so we shouldn't be either.
Totally agree there is nothing in that video to actually suggest why Sony is being conservative other than no competition which is silly

And this is being debated by 2 guys that will never work on a PS5 Pro devkit and just fishing for clicks

And he wants me to run it past actual people in the business

smirk drinking GIF
 

RaySoft

Member
You can see posted above that PS5 performs pretty much like 6700, PC GPU that is few % faster in specs.

So where is this hidden power of a console? So far 9th gen consoles perform almost exactly like their isolated GPUs.

If consoles were punching above their weight every game would perform like the last of us part 1 - dog shit and embarrassing port that ps fanboys love so much. But this game is the exception.
Yes, probably most games, at least multiplatform ones, are rather generically made. 1st party games tend to utilize the ps5 capabilities more, and that can lead to porting difficulties. It's a cost issue.
 

Bojji

Member
Yes, probably most games, at least multiplatform ones, are rather generically made. 1st party games tend to utilize the ps5 capabilities more, and that can lead to porting difficulties. It's a cost issue.

I don't see it. in PS3 days first party devs were doing magic on cell processor but what they can do on standard x86 CPU and GPU that is easy to utilize?

Best looking games this gen are third party games, Sony devs are surprisingly stuck in the past in this aspect.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
If anything, the PS5's version cloud density is lower in this shot. This is on a 4090 at max settings.

o6ulHGk.png
It is, but the cloud is cheap processing and occludes the missing precision of the more expensive shading/lighting of foreground geometry and hides potentially low quality light leakage precision issues on the RX6700 as this image below shows can happen.
(https://dev.epicgames.com/documenta...ails-in-unreal-engine?application_version=5.5)
RHWelOs.png

but doesn't in your shot, because it is interesting that at max settings on a 4090 the foreground detail of the model of character despite the clouding matches the PS5 - as shown in my processed version of your shot below.

5VMJ6Nu.jpeg


Why at max settings on your RTX 4090 the further draw distance on PS5 is missing at the non-occluded sides of the cloud, I can't say. Feels like either an optimised PS5 SDK cascaded frusta situation with UE5 that isn't on PC because it isn't an API feature on PC, and doing manually as a painter's algorithm would be very inefficient, or you've missed enabling a setting, or it is a PC bug with the game even on your 4090 settings.
 

Zathalus

Member
Well "you'll have to prove it" if you want me to go along with that - so I could properly look at the un-occluded detail of the alleged "equal" RX6700 PC.
Well here is a 6900 on the high preset and 1080p (top image) vs the PS5. Seems about the same with the character being covered in clouds:

mpJf9hL.jpeg


Z2EsYpO.jpeg
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Well here is a 6900 on the high preset and 1080p (top image) vs the PS5. Seems about the same with the character being covered in clouds:

mpJf9hL.jpeg


Z2EsYpO.jpeg
I have my doubts the second image is from the PS5 for a multitude of reasons....

but the main reason is that after processing each image and skipping back and forth, the image doesn't really move, as though the only difference is the fog cover from a 1-3 frame offset, which after processing makes the second image slightly better and less over sharpened at the end but effectively identical images other than that. The cynic in me says the odds of getting both systems within even 5frames of each other by non faceoff Pros like DF in a game running a 60fps looks highly suspicious, and I didn't even know you had any AMD cards, let alone a RX6900, and that before truly considering any of the other reasons I didn't feel the image was probably from a PS5.

What's the deal? How did you align the games on two different systems with two different frame-rates and slightly different rendering and get them almost on the same frame and so close they almost overlap pixel for pixel? :)
 

ChiefDada

Gold Member
Edit: It's also interesting that developers are choosing to base the PSSR upscale on Performance, not Quality settings, despite the cost of PSSR only being ~2ms. If the PS5 Pro is really much more powerful than we think and can be "unlocked" with no effort as Tom claims, then why are developers leaving all that extra performance on the table?

This is what I've been talking about. I think these new modes we've been seeing from Sony are replacing the old performance modes and will likely run 100-120fps. We haven't seen much from the new fidelity modes yet. But something like F1 24 where the game can run 8k30 (upscaled from native 4k) with all RT features should give us an idea of just how much power is available.

I'd like to better understand where/how the additional 45% GPU power is being applied because many of the games implementing PSSR have simply adopted the performance mode of base PS5 without improving graphics. In the case of TLOU, what once took them 16.67ms/frame should now take them 11.5ms/frame; taking 2ms PSSR budget into account, that would equate to a theoretical render budget of 13.5ms with 3ms+ to spare, which is a LOT for 60fps budget. Now someone may counter by saying "up to 45% GPU lift", but my response would be that both TLOU Remastered and TLOU Pt. 1 both run ~75fps range most of the time so I am actually being conservative with my numbers (By extension, we should be seeing TLOU games easily running 100fps+ on average in the modes DF has been testing).

For games like Spider-Man and Ratchet, it's even more mind boggling because they already had render budget reserved for ITGI, so net PSSR cost should be more favorable. So again I ask, where is the additional power going??
 

Zathalus

Member
I have my doubts the second image is from the PS5 for a multitude of reasons....

but the main reason is that after processing each image and skipping back and forth, the image doesn't really move, as though the only difference is the fog cover from a 1-3 frame offset, which after processing makes the second image slightly better and less over sharpened at the end but effectively identical images other than that. The cynic in me says the odds of getting both systems within even 5frames of each other by non faceoff Pros like DF in a game running a 60fps looks highly suspicious, and I didn't even know you had any AMD cards, let alone a RX6900, and that before truly considering any of the other reasons I didn't feel the image was probably from a PS5.

What's the deal? How did you align the games on two different systems with two different frame-rates and slightly different rendering and get them almost on the same frame and so close they almost overlap pixel for pixel? :)
? It’s just YouTube captures, just skip forward frame by frame and make sure that both have the same resolution. One was from a let’s play with a 6900 and the other a PS5. Then simply use the snipping tool and upload online.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
? It’s just YouTube captures, just skip forward frame by frame and make sure that both have the same resolution. One was from a let’s play with a 6900 and the other a PS5. Then simply use the snipping tool and upload online.
okay so you didn't capture them yourself, that makes sense that veracity of them needs verified.

If you post the links that would be great, as I really don't believe that is a PS5 image and want to go check the source myself.
 

Zathalus

Member
okay so you didn't capture them yourself, that makes sense that veracity of them needs verified.

If you post the links that would be great, as I really don't believe that is a PS5 image and want to go check the source myself.
It was from one of these:







I went through several videos trying to align the shots as close as possible, but no idea which one exactly as I didn’t label anything. Those were the ones in my browser history though.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
It was from one of these:







I went through several videos trying to align the shots as close as possible, but no idea which one exactly as I didn’t label anything. Those were the ones in my browser history though.

I think you've accidentally uploaded two PC shots. never mind - life's too short - it isn't worth either of our time trying to find what you thought you captured when we can't even step through youtube videos at sub-second internals AFAIK.
 

FrankWza

Member
What better way to sell a $700 product than to undersell its capabilities? Companies are totally not known to EXAGGERATE in order to boost sales, but honest guy Sony is so concerned about its customers that it does the opposite.
This happened when the PS5 and Series launched. 60 million sales @$500 and a price increase later the undersell worked and the oversale didn't. Again.
Whenever Cerny does talk about something (ssd,vss) they get secret sauce comments. So, as usual, they'll let the performance and games speak for them. DF is already changing their tune and more will follow
 

PaintTinJr

Member
This happened when the PS5 and Series launched. 60 million sales @$500 and a price increase later the undersell worked and the oversale didn't. Again.
Whenever Cerny does talk about something (ssd,vss) they get secret sauce comments. So, as usual, they'll let the performance and games speak for them. DF is already changing their tune and more will follow
One of the things that occurred to me, is that DLSS always talked about 8K training IIRC, because to upscale to 4K as a super sample the training needs to be higher resolution than the output....so if PSSR has 8K modes and had that planned from the start, maybe that means PSSR has been trained on 16K, which again would explain how PSSR image quality with a seemingly great algorithm is absolutely impressing the former sceptics IMO
 

Tqaulity

Member
This kind of flew under the radar a bit but I'd suggest that this is the closest GPU on the market to the PS5 PRO's GPU in raster perf:


Overall, this card is just slighter below the RX 7800XT due to lower clocks and memory bandwidth.

Some benchmarks showing excellent performance for a mobile GPU:


Keep in mind that the PS5 PRO's GPU is still slightly better than this on paper with more mem bandwidth and a slighter higher clock (assuming same clock speed as base PS5). But the custom RT hardware in the PRO, higher cache, and other console customizations should increase efficiency in real games as well (especially with RT).
 

Tchu-Espresso

likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
This is what I've been talking about. I think these new modes we've been seeing from Sony are replacing the old performance modes and will likely run 100-120fps. We haven't seen much from the new fidelity modes yet. But something like F1 24 where the game can run 8k30 (upscaled from native 4k) with all RT features should give us an idea of just how much power is available.
This is the thing that’s confusing me. Sony are not exactly simplifying the choice between performance and quality modes if the performance modes remain with far lower settings (which isn’t the case with TLOU2 in any event). I thought it was a lost opportunity not presenting TLOU2 with bumped settings using its quality mode and PSSR.

We need to see more.
 
Last edited:
You aren't a developer.

How about you run what is said by them in the video to the devs you say you know.
Let us know your findings.

If not... we are wasting time,I will believe what was said,what I see with the specs and the examples that will show more than a 46% advantage over PS5.

This makes no sense man give it up ...i want the Pro to be amazing too but this isn't how things work.

If the Pro is greater than the specs they've given why are we getting Performance modes patched with PSSR. Why aren't we getting Fidelity modes as the base with whico to implement Pro patches? Love for someone to explain this to me still but people are not acknowledging this at all.

Isn't it true that LoU1/2, Spiderman 2, and Horizon are using Performance mode profile? This is a compromise right off the bat ...a bit concerning, no? I have Pro on the way but man I hope this is just because it's the initial batch of games ...still confounding
 
This is the thing that’s confusing me. Sony are not exactly simplifying the choice between performance and quality modes if the performance modes remain with far lower settings (which isn’t the case with TLOU2 in any event). I thought it was a lost opportunity not presenting TLOU2 with bumped settings using its quality mode and PSSR.

We need to see more.

I figured out what's behind Sony's decision to use Performance mode as the base for Pro updates and it's NOT good ...

This has been bothering since the previews started coming out ...why would Sony gimp the Pro patches by making us choose between better graphics settings at 30fps and the pssr Pro mode? If you think of it from Sony's perspective it kinda makes sense but my god, this is huge failure to understand what the audience for Pro wants ...

Sony's is tethered to this model of "Fidelity" and "Performancd modes" so they of course still want their games to have a 30 fps and a 60 fps mode. The "Pro mode" is still a "Performance mode" to Sony because 60 fps, so they can't base it on Fidelity-code and have it both outperform the 30 fps "Fidelity" mode that will still exist in games! Because then the "Fidelity mode"(at 30 fps) wouldn't make sense in that dynamic that way ..

Holy shit! This is some grade A corporate buffunery of the highest level...them not using Fidelity mode>Pro mode saves them time and "hassle" while still keeping the binary concept of Performance and Fidelity.

Make no mistake- the PS5 Pro has more than enough power to be taking Fidelity modes of PS5 games, dropping the native resolution, and then using PSSR to upscale to 4k! But they're not doing this ...retarded and not what anyone wants.

They're banking on people just buying the Pro even though there's this obvious discrepency in the minds of some of us. Even though the console costs $700 they think people will have the (and i apologize for singling you out), Chief Dada mindset of "don't know why this extra power is left on the table doing it this way ...must mean they just havn't shown the Fidelity Pro modes" yet...

Like, no. They're not holding back info about Fidelity Pro modes...a COMPROMISED Pro Performance is what we seem to be getting for this initial batch of Pro enhanced games guys ... Sony even stated that 75% of people are playing Perf modes ...that was their statement of intent right there. Sony likes to keep things simple and clean even if it means some downgraded settings. They're banking that we won't notice or care since PSSR does resolve more detail, but we'll still be playing downgraded settings compared to what people want and expected- that's the failure to understand their audience im talking about.

Again, this decision will apply to this initial batch of 30-40 games and not so much future games that will be developed after the Pro has released but STILL, this is a big deal because those 30-50 games are a big part of the reason the hardcore are wanting to upgrade in the first place! This also sets a bad precedent to developers looking to maybe offer an upgrade for obvious reasons.

Yup ...it is 100% the reasoning behind this ...1. gotta have a Perf and a Fidelity mode 2. can't have Fidelity mode being inferior to Pro's 60 fps enhanced mode 3. Have to use Performance>pssr to maintain this arbitrary labelling system across games

Fucking Sony

Yes Im being repetitive in this post because this isn't registering with people here and I apologize for being that guy but I gotta speak up.
 
Last edited:

PaintTinJr

Member
Already mentioned in another thread: the recently released 7800M GPU is the closest thing we have to a PS5 PRO GPU in raster.
By memory bandwidth alone

- forgetting all the other advantages of console APUs over laptop discrete GPUs like unified memory reducing redundancy of holding two copies, and redundancy of copying between CPU/GPU pools after updates, hand optimised code for latency hiding memory access between CPU and GPU, light weight real-time OS to the metal and features like cache scrubbers -

because that GPU @ 432GB/s is only 4/5 of the Pro's ~535GB (576GBs - 40GBS for CPU) and probably more like 3/4 overall at best when factoring in lower clock speeds on the 7800M. Will be interesting to see how the Pro's 300 TOPs is derived and if the RDNA4 RT is as efficient as the Pro's RT enhancement. that this RDNA3 derivative doesn't have.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
I figured out what's behind Sony's decision to use Performance mode as the base for Pro updates and it's NOT good ...

This has been bothering since the previews started coming out ...why would Sony gimp the Pro patches by making us choose between better graphics settings at 30fps and the pssr Pro mode? If you think of it from Sony's perspective it kinda makes sense but my god, this is huge failure to understand what the audience for Pro wants ...

Sony's is tethered to this model of "Fidelity" and "Performancd modes" so they of course still want their games to have a 30 fps and a 60 fps mode. The "Pro mode" is still a "Performance mode" to Sony because 60 fps, so they can't base it on Fidelity-code and have it both outperform the 30 fps "Fidelity" mode that will still exist in games! Because then the "Fidelity mode"(at 30 fps) wouldn't make sense in that dynamic that way ..

Holy shit! This is some grade A corporate buffunery of the highest level...them not using Fidelity mode>Pro mode saves them time and "hassle" while still keeping the binary concept of Performance and Fidelity.

Make no mistake- the PS5 Pro has more than enough power to be taking Fidelity modes of PS5 games, dropping the native resolution, and then using PSSR to upscale to 4k! But they're not doing this ...retarded and not what anyone wants.

They're banking on people just buying the Pro even though there's this obvious discrepency in the minds of some of us. Even though the console costs $700 they think people will have the (and i apologize for singling you out), Chief Dada mindset of "don't know why this extra power is left on the table doing it this way ...must mean they just havn't shown the Fidelity Pro modes" yet...

Like, no. They're not holding back info about Fidelity Pro modes...a COMPROMISED Pro Performance is what we seem to be getting for this initial batch of Pro enhanced games guys ... Sony even stated that 75% of people are playing Perf modes ...that was their statement of intent right there. Sony likes to keep things simple and clean even if it means some downgraded settings. They're banking that we won't notice or care since PSSR does resolve more detail, but we'll still be playing downgraded settings compared to what people want and expected- that's the failure to understand their audience im talking about.

Again, this decision will apply to this initial batch of 30-40 games and not so much future games that will be developed after the Pro has released but STILL, this is a big deal because those 30-50 games are a big part of the reason the hardcore are wanting to upgrade in the first place! This also sets a bad precedent to developers looking to maybe offer an upgrade for obvious reasons.

Yup ...it is 100% the reasoning behind this ...1. gotta have a Perf and a Fidelity mode 2. can't have Fidelity mode being inferior to Pro's 60 fps enhanced mode 3. Have to use Performance>pssr to maintain this arbitrary labelling system across games

Fucking Sony

Yes Im being repetitive in this post because this isn't registering with people here and I apologize for being that guy but I gotta speak up.
I don't think you understand what happened.

DF successfully pushed for 60fps to promote PC as better than consoles. resulting in a PS4 Pro.

Sony and Devs listened before the gen and started producing games with fidelity and performance modes.

DF wrongly go all in on TVs designed for film viewing for gaming (OLED) and encourage most of their followers to follow suit, but many many games @30fps have problems with the poor motion handling on OLED resulting in 60fps performance mode or PC being OLED users only solution. DF then criticise picture quality in performance mode, again pushing the just go PC route for those that wrongly opted for OLED for gaming.


Sony and Devs lose sales (SE Final Fantasies) and listen again, and focus on selling the Pro with the only mode that DF are interested in for their acolytes.

In your opinion where exactly is the problem in this whole set of events that happened :) ?
 

DinoD

Member
I figured out what's behind Sony's decision to use Performance mode as the base for Pro updates and it's NOT good ...

This has been bothering since the previews started coming out ...why would Sony gimp the Pro patches by making us choose between better graphics settings at 30fps and the pssr Pro mode? If you think of it from Sony's perspective it kinda makes sense but my god, this is huge failure to understand what the audience for Pro wants ...

Sony's is tethered to this model of "Fidelity" and "Performancd modes" so they of course still want their games to have a 30 fps and a 60 fps mode. The "Pro mode" is still a "Performance mode" to Sony because 60 fps, so they can't base it on Fidelity-code and have it both outperform the 30 fps "Fidelity" mode that will still exist in games! Because then the "Fidelity mode"(at 30 fps) wouldn't make sense in that dynamic that way ..

Holy shit! This is some grade A corporate buffunery of the highest level...them not using Fidelity mode>Pro mode saves them time and "hassle" while still keeping the binary concept of Performance and Fidelity.

Make no mistake- the PS5 Pro has more than enough power to be taking Fidelity modes of PS5 games, dropping the native resolution, and then using PSSR to upscale to 4k! But they're not doing this ...retarded and not what anyone wants.

They're banking on people just buying the Pro even though there's this obvious discrepency in the minds of some of us. Even though the console costs $700 they think people will have the (and i apologize for singling you out), Chief Dada mindset of "don't know why this extra power is left on the table doing it this way ...must mean they just havn't shown the Fidelity Pro modes" yet...

Like, no. They're not holding back info about Fidelity Pro modes...a COMPROMISED Pro Performance is what we seem to be getting for this initial batch of Pro enhanced games guys ... Sony even stated that 75% of people are playing Perf modes ...that was their statement of intent right there. Sony likes to keep things simple and clean even if it means some downgraded settings. They're banking that we won't notice or care since PSSR does resolve more detail, but we'll still be playing downgraded settings compared to what people want and expected- that's the failure to understand their audience im talking about.

Again, this decision will apply to this initial batch of 30-40 games and not so much future games that will be developed after the Pro has released but STILL, this is a big deal because those 30-50 games are a big part of the reason the hardcore are wanting to upgrade in the first place! This also sets a bad precedent to developers looking to maybe offer an upgrade for obvious reasons.

Yup ...it is 100% the reasoning behind this ...1. gotta have a Perf and a Fidelity mode 2. can't have Fidelity mode being inferior to Pro's 60 fps enhanced mode 3. Have to use Performance>pssr to maintain this arbitrary labelling system across games

Fucking Sony

Yes Im being repetitive in this post because this isn't registering with people here and I apologize for being that guy but I gotta speak up.
Nina Dobrev GIF
 
I figured out what's behind Sony's decision to use Performance mode as the base for Pro updates and it's NOT good ...

This has been bothering since the previews started coming out ...why would Sony gimp the Pro patches by making us choose between better graphics settings at 30fps and the pssr Pro mode? If you think of it from Sony's perspective it kinda makes sense but my god, this is huge failure to understand what the audience for Pro wants ...

Sony's is tethered to this model of "Fidelity" and "Performancd modes" so they of course still want their games to have a 30 fps and a 60 fps mode. The "Pro mode" is still a "Performance mode" to Sony because 60 fps, so they can't base it on Fidelity-code and have it both outperform the 30 fps "Fidelity" mode that will still exist in games! Because then the "Fidelity mode"(at 30 fps) wouldn't make sense in that dynamic that way ..

Holy shit! This is some grade A corporate buffunery of the highest level...them not using Fidelity mode>Pro mode saves them time and "hassle" while still keeping the binary concept of Performance and Fidelity.

Make no mistake- the PS5 Pro has more than enough power to be taking Fidelity modes of PS5 games, dropping the native resolution, and then using PSSR to upscale to 4k! But they're not doing this ...retarded and not what anyone wants.

They're banking on people just buying the Pro even though there's this obvious discrepency in the minds of some of us. Even though the console costs $700 they think people will have the (and i apologize for singling you out), Chief Dada mindset of "don't know why this extra power is left on the table doing it this way ...must mean they just havn't shown the Fidelity Pro modes" yet...

Like, no. They're not holding back info about Fidelity Pro modes...a COMPROMISED Pro Performance is what we seem to be getting for this initial batch of Pro enhanced games guys ... Sony even stated that 75% of people are playing Perf modes ...that was their statement of intent right there. Sony likes to keep things simple and clean even if it means some downgraded settings. They're banking that we won't notice or care since PSSR does resolve more detail, but we'll still be playing downgraded settings compared to what people want and expected- that's the failure to understand their audience im talking about.

Again, this decision will apply to this initial batch of 30-40 games and not so much future games that will be developed after the Pro has released but STILL, this is a big deal because those 30-50 games are a big part of the reason the hardcore are wanting to upgrade in the first place! This also sets a bad precedent to developers looking to maybe offer an upgrade for obvious reasons.

Yup ...it is 100% the reasoning behind this ...1. gotta have a Perf and a Fidelity mode 2. can't have Fidelity mode being inferior to Pro's 60 fps enhanced mode 3. Have to use Performance>pssr to maintain this arbitrary labelling system across games

Fucking Sony

Yes Im being repetitive in this post because this isn't registering with people here and I apologize for being that guy but I gotta speak up.

Respectfully, you haven't figured out shit, Gran Turismo has additional modes, we don't really have any details beyond a couple of hands on previews, GT7 isn't taking performance mode and applying PSSR because it's got on track raytracing at 60fps from the hands on.
 

64bitbros

Member
I figured out what's behind Sony's decision to use Performance mode as the base for Pro updates and it's NOT good ...

This has been bothering since the previews started coming out ...why would Sony gimp the Pro patches by making us choose between better graphics settings at 30fps and the pssr Pro mode? If you think of it from Sony's perspective it kinda makes sense but my god, this is huge failure to understand what the audience for Pro wants ...

Sony's is tethered to this model of "Fidelity" and "Performancd modes" so they of course still want their games to have a 30 fps and a 60 fps mode. The "Pro mode" is still a "Performance mode" to Sony because 60 fps, so they can't base it on Fidelity-code and have it both outperform the 30 fps "Fidelity" mode that will still exist in games! Because then the "Fidelity mode"(at 30 fps) wouldn't make sense in that dynamic that way ..

Holy shit! This is some grade A corporate buffunery of the highest level...them not using Fidelity mode>Pro mode saves them time and "hassle" while still keeping the binary concept of Performance and Fidelity.

Make no mistake- the PS5 Pro has more than enough power to be taking Fidelity modes of PS5 games, dropping the native resolution, and then using PSSR to upscale to 4k! But they're not doing this ...retarded and not what anyone wants.

They're banking on people just buying the Pro even though there's this obvious discrepency in the minds of some of us. Even though the console costs $700 they think people will have the (and i apologize for singling you out), Chief Dada mindset of "don't know why this extra power is left on the table doing it this way ...must mean they just havn't shown the Fidelity Pro modes" yet...

Like, no. They're not holding back info about Fidelity Pro modes...a COMPROMISED Pro Performance is what we seem to be getting for this initial batch of Pro enhanced games guys ... Sony even stated that 75% of people are playing Perf modes ...that was their statement of intent right there. Sony likes to keep things simple and clean even if it means some downgraded settings. They're banking that we won't notice or care since PSSR does resolve more detail, but we'll still be playing downgraded settings compared to what people want and expected- that's the failure to understand their audience im talking about.

Again, this decision will apply to this initial batch of 30-40 games and not so much future games that will be developed after the Pro has released but STILL, this is a big deal because those 30-50 games are a big part of the reason the hardcore are wanting to upgrade in the first place! This also sets a bad precedent to developers looking to maybe offer an upgrade for obvious reasons.

Yup ...it is 100% the reasoning behind this ...1. gotta have a Perf and a Fidelity mode 2. can't have Fidelity mode being inferior to Pro's 60 fps enhanced mode 3. Have to use Performance>pssr to maintain this arbitrary labelling system across games

Fucking Sony

Yes Im being repetitive in this post because this isn't registering with people here and I apologize for being that guy but I gotta speak up.

MtrFMkP.jpeg
 

Parazels

Member
I’m curious how you brain operated to arrive at that conclusion. Where does it state that he expected something terrible? He said he was not expecting it to be a game changer. Walk me through how you reached that he thought it it would be terrible.

John, an Xbox shill? No.
1.5 years ago DF immediately "buried" PS5 PRO, because, in their opinion, it wouldn't make sense to launch the console for many reasons.
 
I figured out what's behind Sony's decision to use Performance mode as the base for Pro updates and it's NOT good ...

This has been bothering since the previews started coming out ...why would Sony gimp the Pro patches by making us choose between better graphics settings at 30fps and the pssr Pro mode? If you think of it from Sony's perspective it kinda makes sense but my god, this is huge failure to understand what the audience for Pro wants ...

Sony's is tethered to this model of "Fidelity" and "Performancd modes" so they of course still want their games to have a 30 fps and a 60 fps mode. The "Pro mode" is still a "Performance mode" to Sony because 60 fps, so they can't base it on Fidelity-code and have it both outperform the 30 fps "Fidelity" mode that will still exist in games! Because then the "Fidelity mode"(at 30 fps) wouldn't make sense in that dynamic that way ..

Holy shit! This is some grade A corporate buffunery of the highest level...them not using Fidelity mode>Pro mode saves them time and "hassle" while still keeping the binary concept of Performance and Fidelity.

Make no mistake- the PS5 Pro has more than enough power to be taking Fidelity modes of PS5 games, dropping the native resolution, and then using PSSR to upscale to 4k! But they're not doing this ...retarded and not what anyone wants.

They're banking on people just buying the Pro even though there's this obvious discrepency in the minds of some of us. Even though the console costs $700 they think people will have the (and i apologize for singling you out), Chief Dada mindset of "don't know why this extra power is left on the table doing it this way ...must mean they just havn't shown the Fidelity Pro modes" yet...

Like, no. They're not holding back info about Fidelity Pro modes...a COMPROMISED Pro Performance is what we seem to be getting for this initial batch of Pro enhanced games guys ... Sony even stated that 75% of people are playing Perf modes ...that was their statement of intent right there. Sony likes to keep things simple and clean even if it means some downgraded settings. They're banking that we won't notice or care since PSSR does resolve more detail, but we'll still be playing downgraded settings compared to what people want and expected- that's the failure to understand their audience im talking about.

Again, this decision will apply to this initial batch of 30-40 games and not so much future games that will be developed after the Pro has released but STILL, this is a big deal because those 30-50 games are a big part of the reason the hardcore are wanting to upgrade in the first place! This also sets a bad precedent to developers looking to maybe offer an upgrade for obvious reasons.

Yup ...it is 100% the reasoning behind this ...1. gotta have a Perf and a Fidelity mode 2. can't have Fidelity mode being inferior to Pro's 60 fps enhanced mode 3. Have to use Performance>pssr to maintain this arbitrary labelling system across games

Fucking Sony

Yes Im being repetitive in this post because this isn't registering with people here and I apologize for being that guy but I gotta speak up.
giphy.webp
 

FireFly

Member
I don't think you understand what happened.

DF successfully pushed for 60fps to promote PC as better than consoles. resulting in a PS4 Pro.

Sony and Devs listened before the gen and started producing games with fidelity and performance modes.

DF wrongly go all in on TVs designed for film viewing for gaming (OLED) and encourage most of their followers to follow suit, but many many games @30fps have problems with the poor motion handling on OLED resulting in 60fps performance mode or PC being OLED users only solution. DF then criticise picture quality in performance mode, again pushing the just go PC route for those that wrongly opted for OLED for gaming.


Sony and Devs lose sales (SE Final Fantasies) and listen again, and focus on selling the Pro with the only mode that DF are interested in for their acolytes.

In your opinion where exactly is the problem in this whole set of events that happened :) ?
DF are the Illuminati, confirmed on GAF.
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I don't think you understand what happened.

DF successfully pushed for 60fps to promote PC as better than consoles. resulting in a PS4 Pro.

Sony and Devs listened before the gen and started producing games with fidelity and performance modes.

DF wrongly go all in on TVs designed for film viewing for gaming (OLED) and encourage most of their followers to follow suit, but many many games @30fps have problems with the poor motion handling on OLED resulting in 60fps performance mode or PC being OLED users only solution. DF then criticise picture quality in performance mode, again pushing the just go PC route for those that wrongly opted for OLED for gaming.


Sony and Devs lose sales (SE Final Fantasies) and listen again, and focus on selling the Pro with the only mode that DF are interested in for their acolytes.

In your opinion where exactly is the problem in this whole set of events that happened :) ?
Console gamers should be thankful then. Most of them use 60fps. This wouldn’t have been a thing without DF’s divine intervention.

I don't remember the words, I remember their surprisingly boring faces!
😂😂😂
John never remotely implied it’d be terrible. There’s a gulf between terrible and a game changer and he was somewhere in that gulf. However, that would require the likes of you to have some nuance in your thought process and use critical thinking, things you cannot do when DF is involved.
 
Last edited:

Elios83

Member
I figured out what's behind Sony's decision to use Performance mode as the base for Pro updates and it's NOT good ...

This has been bothering since the previews started coming out ...why would Sony gimp the Pro patches by making us choose between better graphics settings at 30fps and the pssr Pro mode? If you think of it from Sony's perspective it kinda makes sense but my god, this is huge failure to understand what the audience for Pro wants ...

Sony's is tethered to this model of "Fidelity" and "Performancd modes" so they of course still want their games to have a 30 fps and a 60 fps mode. The "Pro mode" is still a "Performance mode" to Sony because 60 fps, so they can't base it on Fidelity-code and have it both outperform the 30 fps "Fidelity" mode that will still exist in games! Because then the "Fidelity mode"(at 30 fps) wouldn't make sense in that dynamic that way ..

Holy shit! This is some grade A corporate buffunery of the highest level...them not using Fidelity mode>Pro mode saves them time and "hassle" while still keeping the binary concept of Performance and Fidelity.

Make no mistake- the PS5 Pro has more than enough power to be taking Fidelity modes of PS5 games, dropping the native resolution, and then using PSSR to upscale to 4k! But they're not doing this ...retarded and not what anyone wants.

They're banking on people just buying the Pro even though there's this obvious discrepency in the minds of some of us. Even though the console costs $700 they think people will have the (and i apologize for singling you out), Chief Dada mindset of "don't know why this extra power is left on the table doing it this way ...must mean they just havn't shown the Fidelity Pro modes" yet...

Like, no. They're not holding back info about Fidelity Pro modes...a COMPROMISED Pro Performance is what we seem to be getting for this initial batch of Pro enhanced games guys ... Sony even stated that 75% of people are playing Perf modes ...that was their statement of intent right there. Sony likes to keep things simple and clean even if it means some downgraded settings. They're banking that we won't notice or care since PSSR does resolve more detail, but we'll still be playing downgraded settings compared to what people want and expected- that's the failure to understand their audience im talking about.

Again, this decision will apply to this initial batch of 30-40 games and not so much future games that will be developed after the Pro has released but STILL, this is a big deal because those 30-50 games are a big part of the reason the hardcore are wanting to upgrade in the first place! This also sets a bad precedent to developers looking to maybe offer an upgrade for obvious reasons.

Yup ...it is 100% the reasoning behind this ...1. gotta have a Perf and a Fidelity mode 2. can't have Fidelity mode being inferior to Pro's 60 fps enhanced mode 3. Have to use Performance>pssr to maintain this arbitrary labelling system across games

Fucking Sony

Yes Im being repetitive in this post because this isn't registering with people here and I apologize for being that guy but I gotta speak up.

Emmm what?:messenger_dizzy:
Developers can do whatever they want.
The main design goal of the system is to deliver the image quality found in quality modes at 60fps. This is a clear cut goal that is easy to understand and is a compromise that everyone is bothered with, why can't I have the best of both worlds? It makes sense they focused on this.

But as already demonstrated by games like Harry Potter and Alan Wake 2, developers can use the extra power to deliver for example advanced ray tracing effects at 30fps that are simply not possible at all on the base PS5.
Guerrilla isn't even using PSRR but they're basically creating something that looks better than quality mode at 60fps.

It's up to developers to decide how to use the extra power and the modes they want to implement, Sony isn't imposing anything. If developers want to make the best looking game they can at 30fps they're free to do it.
 

Parazels

Member
Console gamers should be thankful then. Most of them use 60fps. This wouldn’t have been a thing without DF’s divine intervention.


John never remotely implied it’d be terrible. There’s a gulf between terrible and a game changer and he was somewhere in that gulf. However, that would require the likes of you to have some nuance in your thought process and use critical thinking, things you cannot do when DF is involved.
Relax, I like John and the other DF guys
(except one pc gamer, but I dislike all pc gamers).
😂😂😂
 
Last edited:

PaintTinJr

Member
Console gamers should be thankful then. Most of them use 60fps. This wouldn’t have been a thing without DF’s divine intervention.
For what exactly?

I love Demon's souls on PS5, but the 60fps feels no quicker than the 30fps mode on my PS3, and the 30fps on PS5 feels like 15fps with frame-gen - unplayable - and that is on a Sony ZD9, same with all the games like HZ and Spiderman, none of them have the zip of a MGS5 60fps.

DF still don't understand the fundamental difference between designing a game for 60fps and designing it for 30fps but with a performance 60fps mode.
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
For what exactly?
For giving them a mode they clearly prefer over 30fps.
I love Demon's souls on PS5, but the 60fps feels no quicker than the 30fps mode on my PS3, and the 30fps on PS5 feels like 15fps with frame-gen - unplayable - and that is on a Sony ZD9, same with all the games like HZ and Spiderman, none of them have the zip of a MGS5 60fps.

DF still don't understand the fundamental difference between designing a game for 60fps and designing it for 30fps but with a performance 60fps mode.
Then blame devs for being incompetent.
 

MikeM

Member
I don't think you understand what happened.

DF successfully pushed for 60fps to promote PC as better than consoles. resulting in a PS4 Pro.

Sony and Devs listened before the gen and started producing games with fidelity and performance modes.

DF wrongly go all in on TVs designed for film viewing for gaming (OLED) and encourage most of their followers to follow suit, but many many games @30fps have problems with the poor motion handling on OLED resulting in 60fps performance mode or PC being OLED users only solution. DF then criticise picture quality in performance mode, again pushing the just go PC route for those that wrongly opted for OLED for gaming.


Sony and Devs lose sales (SE Final Fantasies) and listen again, and focus on selling the Pro with the only mode that DF are interested in for their acolytes.

In your opinion where exactly is the problem in this whole set of events that happened :) ?
Who said OLED was designed primarily for film viewing? If that was the case, why would it be so heavy in gaming features? To me, OLED (especially LG’s) is gaming focused with 120fps, game mode, full hdmi 2.1 bandwidth ports on all hdmi ports (C series and higher), full VRR support including Nvidia and AMD solutions, frame counters, etc
 

PaintTinJr

Member
For giving them a mode they clearly prefer over 30fps.

Then blame devs for being incompetent.
You missed my point. They made a lot of noise for 30fps games to still play like 30fps when displaying at 60fps, and play like 15fps when rendering at 30fps, now.

Lots of wasted effort by devs for zero gain for consumers, and infact worse graphics in the 60fps modes that play at 30fps.
 
I appreciate someone who can change their stance upon learning new information vs doubling down on their stupidity....going after John seems kinda weird I get that he was a bit annoying last year when talking about the Pro but it was his opinion it didn't feel like an agenda. Richard was the one that confused me with his takes he's supposed to be the seasoned vet, Oliver was the only one Sober minded about the possibilities, while Alex was just Alex.......
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Who said OLED was designed primarily for film viewing? If that was the case, why would it be so heavy in gaming features? To me, OLED (especially LG’s) is gaming focused with 120fps, game mode, full hdmi 2.1 bandwidth ports on all hdmi ports (C series and higher), full VRR support including Nvidia and AMD solutions, frame counters, etc
Sony developed the first ever OLED TV - it was tiny under 20" - and their own website promotes OLED best for film only, (mini)LED/LCD best for sport and everything else.
Sony's flagship Tv isn't an OLED. They might have previously given it equal top billing, but the most expensive Sony Bravia at comparative screen sizes over a few updates ends up as their flagship screen, and that's where the Bravia 9 sits in the line up.

LG aren't creating the signal processing technology of tomorrow, like Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, etc but are just a good cheap manufacturer of today's tech with decent market share like Hisense, etc.
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I appreciate someone who can change their stance upon learning new information vs doubling down on their stupidity....going after John seems kinda weird I get that he was a bit annoying last year when talking about the Pro but it was his opinion it didn't feel like an agenda. Richard was the one that confused me with his takes he's supposed to be the seasoned vet, Oliver was the only one Sober minded about the possibilities, while Alex was just Alex.......
John didn’t think it would suck. He just thought it wouldn’t be enough of a difference to change things. Now he sees that he was incorrect. He just likes gaming and is usually pretty open-minded. Oliver is more impartial. Don’t bother listening to Richard most of the time. Alex’s stance on console is well-known, and I don’t know why they keep featuring him in console talks when he’s repeatedly shown his disdain for them.
 
This makes no sense man give it up ...i want the Pro to be amazing too but this isn't how things work.

If the Pro is greater than the specs they've given why are we getting Performance modes patched with PSSR. Why aren't we getting Fidelity modes as the base with whico to implement Pro patches? Love for someone to explain this to me still but people are not acknowledging this at all.

Isn't it true that LoU1/2, Spiderman 2, and Horizon are using Performance mode profile? This is a compromise right off the bat ...a bit concerning, no? I have Pro on the way but man I hope this is just because it's the initial batch of games ...still confounding

"Feel Like I'm On 42 is confused, it hurt itself in its confusion"

You inherently don't understand how games are developed, and you've turned your confusion into anger.

Let's start with getting performance modes patched with PSSR. That's not how game development works. I can see why you're confused about it because the end goal is 60 fps like in performance modes.

Let's say I have a game and it has two modes. Performance and Fidelity. Performance mode is locked to 60 and Fidelity is locked to 30. If these modes don't drop frames, the reality is they almost certainly have room to spare in terms of frame performance. Uncapped frame rates might reveal 65,70, 75, 80 fps e.t.c. in performance mode, but what the game developer has found is that they're not able to hit 60 stable in Fidelity mode.

That's the first thing you need to understand. The second, is that not all performance modes are built the same. Some performance modes just reduce the resolution, perhaps dynamically others reduce image quality features like ray tracing or shadow and texture detail.

In addition most of these games are already using some element of upscaling in both performance mode and fidelity mode, simply because native 4K is super expensive on performance.

What PSSR does is it allows the hardware to handle this utilizing machine learning and is significantly better on image quality than FSR and TSR.

So you're not necessarily utilizing performance mode or fidelity mode in creating your Pro mode.

First you're removing FSR or TSR or checkerboard upscaling because combining upscaling techniques is going to result in trash. This brings you back to a native image and a native resolution (presumably 4K). You don't even need to use PSSR to have a Pro mode if you don't want, but in most cases it's going to help improve your game at minimal costs.

Let's say you wanted to turn all image quality settings to the max and you wanted to upscale from a 1440P (rather than 4K) image into PSSR. Now you see what your frame rate looks like in this mode. Is it above 60 fps? If not you have a few options depending on what frame rate you're getting.

  • You could make a high frame rate mode utilizing 120 fps to deliver a 40 fps mode
  • If you're above 48 fps you could rely on an uncapped frame rate mode with VRR
  • If you're above 30 fps maybe you label that Fidelity Pro
  • If your goal is still to deliver 60 fps maybe you dial down some of the fidelity settings or you go with a lower native resolution than 1440P (it also depends on what resolution you're trying to output to)

You've created this massive nonsensical conspiracy out of your own ignorance for the developmental process, which is going to be different across games, partially because of who the developers are and partially because of the demands of the game.

The idea that developers are simply taking existing performance modes and slapping on PSSR to sharpen the image, is largely foolish and oversimplified.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Bullshit.

Sony's flagship TV is still the A95L QD-OLED that was released in late 2023

They simply carried it over to 2024

The XR90 (Bravia 9) is NOT Sony's flagship TV
It is a budget TV compared to the Bravia 9 even if it is their OLED flagship for movie watching. Each gen their new gen flagship TV gets sent to first party devs, and that will be a Bravia 9 currently, as their reference screen.
 
I appreciate someone who can change their stance upon learning new information vs doubling down on their stupidity....going after John seems kinda weird I get that he was a bit annoying last year when talking about the Pro but it was his opinion it didn't feel like an agenda. Richard was the one that confused me with his takes he's supposed to be the seasoned vet, Oliver was the only one Sober minded about the possibilities, while Alex was just Alex.......

The reality is all four of them largely trashed the PS5 Pro in various degrees. And yes, John was part of that.

Much of their criticism of the PS5 Pro was rooted in the fact that it wasn't the PS6 and that Sony would struggle marketing this because it doesn't accomplish something new. You can make that argument and that's fine and dandy, but then you should be consistent. Have that same energy for PCs, but they don't.

Alex at one point said he wouldn't recommend someone with a 2060 getting a 4060 or something along those lines, but this was disingenuous at best. They don't largely do comparisons focusing on 2060s. Their PC footage almost always utilized 4090s despite the small percentage of PCs utilizing them.

In addition to downplaying the PS5 Pro before it was even revealed, they also pushed the idea that the price was crazy, despite being a massive boost compared to the same type of video cards they've been pushing for years.

Alex believes that a console should have games that run at 60 fps at launch and still running 60 by the end of the generation, but it ignores a reality that console generations are much longer now, games are more expensive to develop for (hence cross gen), and that games take longer to develop. The idea that you could run a PS3 game on PS2 running at 60 fps, is just unrealistic, and that's kind of where we are today.

Hence a mid gen for people who want that performance and fidelity. He stans PC but bemoans consoles for making PC like strides for those who want it... the reality is the agenda is he doesn't like the encroachment into the PC space.
 
Top Bottom