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[Low Moral Fibre]

FSR2 is pretty solid at 4K Quality.

Yeah I agree and I said as much in my first post but I've been talking about whether it is hypocritical to complain about consoles being sub 1080p using FSR while using DLSS sub 1080p on PC and no, I don't think it is as they are very different beasts from such low resolutions.

Something using FSR on console to jump from 1600p to 4k is a great use case but 1600p is nearly 3x the pixels of 900p so the algorithm has a lot more to work with.

 

[Denton]

TBH the game looks great on consoles, considering their hardware and price. That said I love the look of RTGI (pathtracing even more, but resolution needed to hit 60fps is too low) so PC for me.

 

[StereoVsn]

I find there are a lot of hypocrites in threads like these....

Why is reconstruction ok for PC but when it comes to conses its a bad thing?

These bae resolutions that these threads focus on, are no different from what we see on PC using the very same reconstruction techniques. The only real difference is that on consoles the devs maintain a 4K output target and control what the input resolution is, so in this case, that input rez goes from1440p (quality on PC), all the way down to 900p (which is actually higher than ultra-performance on PC).

I just find it strange.

There are some issues with image quality on FSR 2.0-2.1 where target res is set to 1440p (or lower) which is what we have here. Upscaling to 4K in this case is done after.

In general from what I have seen with FSR once you start going below Quality, Image Quality starts degrading (at 1440p or below as target res). It does it faster vs DLSS and you get smearing. Balanced can be okish if not great, but Performance starts looking like crap when blown up on TV/monitor.

Now on something with a smaller screen like Steam Deck or ROG Ally it's not that bad, but not so for large TV or if you have a monitor right in front of you.

On PC side though most folks have Nvidia and DLSS just does better job at upscaling at "performance" modes especially if targeting 1440p or less.

 

[Elios83]

I think you guys need to start change perspectives. Tools like DLSS, FSR2, the UE5 Temporal Super Resolution don't exist for nothing or to be used on top of a 4K native res.
Internal resolution doesn’t matter a lot if the final image quality is really good.
Spending the power not in running at a super high internal resolution but other aspects will enable the use of other impressive features, the temporal upscalers will still make the game look like it's super high res at expense of some minor artifacts.
This is the trend for the future.

 

[Fbh]

I'd much rather take graphical bells and whistles over 4k. Spiderman 2 looks trash. I suspect it will be a 4k game.

Native 4K is definitely overkill IMO.
But I hope we someday get a console that can run most games at native 1440p 60fps.

Though at this point I doubt it.

If you are into console Gaming a 1080p display will probably be enough for the next 20+ years

 

[mrcroket]

Because most of them they aren't using the same reconstruction techniques - Nvidia have 80% of the market so most people are using DLSS.

DLSS at low resolution is pretty good outside of some select games where it is broken - some games still have bad blur or ghosting even after replacing the .dll so for those I wouldn't use DLSS. Obviously anything with DLSS 1 is not worth using as it was really bad.

FSR (1 or 2) at low resolution is dire and I'd rather not bother - if I have to play at a low resolution and a game has DLSS I use DLSS - if a game only has FSR I use native 100% of the time. If you desperately need the performance it is fine but there are drawbacks that are just magnified at low resolution.

DLSS and FSR at low resolution are absolutely not comparable in motion unless you have very poor vision or are very forgiving of artifacts. FSR is fine to jump the gap to 4k from a decent resolution but taking 900p to 4k is just outside of what it is capable of.

Look at any of my moaning on here and you will see that I am very picky about image quality but DLSS for me is more than acceptable even from sub 1080p. It tends to be a bit softer but is very stable without the shimmering and aliasing you get even at 4k native.

To check I'm not talking shit I just tried Cyberpunk 2077 up to 4k using FSR 2.1 performance and DLSS performance (so like 1080p or so I guess?).
-DLSS gives an image worse than native presentation in some ways but actually better in others as it is very stable particularly in fine detail and stuff in the distance - there is no shimmering, artifacting or obvious aliasing.
-FSR looks much worse than native in every way as it has so much shimmering on fine detail and so much aliasing that you'd honestly have to be blind not to notice it in motion.
-Both look good in screenshots so if you are comparing upscaling techniques from screenshots you are fooling yourself but move the camera and watch the pixels crawl when using FSR.

If there is an amazing implementation of FSR2 in any game tell me about it and I will try it but the stuff I've tried recently (RE4R and Jedi Survivor) I disable FSR as I don't need the performance and it is worse all round compared to native whereas I always use DLSS if available.

Maybe there is something in DLSS that I'm just not prone to noticing but the flaws in FSR are so obvious to me that I'd just rather not bother at least from sub 1080p resolutions.

If some magical AA solution arrives that is better than TAA (maybe the Unreal Super Resolution which I've not tried) I'd be happy to re-evaluate my better than native stance as I appreciate that games today are hamstrung by TAA. I actually think the Insomniac TAA upscaling is nice - gives a softer image but a very pleasing one to look at as I'd take a bit of blur over pixels dancing all over the screen.

My God, chill dude, Jen-Hsun Huang isn't going to hire you or pay you anything.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I mean that entire video looks dreadful so if your argument is that this video represents acceptable image quality then I'm not sure we will ever be on the same page. Probably as it's a video CDPR sent to DF that has been compressed again to put on YouTube.

If Cyberpunk looked anywhere near that bad on my screen I wouldn't play it.

Sorry... the footage shown of the game running on current-gen consoles looks dreadful? And unplayable to you?

Ok, we definitely will never be on the same page.

 

[Hugare]

I have one. But I'd also like the option to play console exclusives in 60fps at non potato resolutions. I shouldn't have to wait for the PC version to release to achieve that.

I'd buy a swith Pro (or 2) and a PS5 Pro day one. For those of you who want to continue to live in the squalor, well... You don't have to buy them.

Console manufacturers prioritize bang for buck when designing a console. They arent making a $800-1000 console (that they would still take a loss, I bet) that would take away factories that are producing base PS5's that would sell much more unities than the Pro.

PS4 Pro just had the same (tho overclocked) CPU and a considerable bump in the GPU side. It wasnt expensive to Sony.

A PS5 Pro would be similar, I bet. In CPU heavy games it would still not reach 60 fps. You would only get a resolution increase like the PS4 Pro.

Since consoles have been doing 30 FPS for decades now, you have already been waiting for PC versions to release for quite a while. So if you really want higher fidelity/fps, keep waiting. Consoles will always be like this.

 

[93xfan]

Series X running better and is in the VRR range. You complaining about needing new consoles- maybe you need a new tv instead

 

[YeulEmeralda]

The real challenge is in doubling performance while still being able to meet a $499 or even $599 price point and not increasing power consumption. It really depends what happens with RDNA 4 because RDNA 3 has not delivered huge improvements in performance/transistor.

Yeah what does AMD even have to offer right now for this mythical pro console?

 

[Silent Viper]

Yeah…these consoles are very underpowered. Im really glad I switched over to pc this year

Here comes ND showing incompetent devs how its done

 

[Bojji]

Series X running better and is in the VRR range. You complaining about needing new consoles- maybe you need a new tv instead

Xbox really saves performance like this with 120hz system output with 40-120hz range and LFC.

Sony fucked up...

 

[MarkMe2525]

900p and still looked good.

 

[93xfan]

Here comes ND showing incompetent devs how its done

They make beautiful games, but ever since the Uncharted 4, they keep way over promising. Won’t trust their visuals until the game is released.

 

[Shifty1897]

Still higher than FF16's performance mode. We were asking for true current gen titles, and now they're here.

 

[Roni]

Not surprising. They drop last gen hardware, the game is being upgraded with new gameplay systems, improved AI, and apparently enhanced visuals.

PC requirements are being increased. The game is going to be bumped to v2.0 when Phantom Liberty comes out. It's not the same game it was at launch.

CDPR sure took their time, but it seems like they might redeem themselves with this game after all...

Hopefully they keep the trend going with future games as well.

 

[GHG]

Console manufacturers prioritize bang for buck when designing a console. They arent making a $800-1000 console (that they would still take a loss, I bet) that would take away factories that are producing base PS5's that would sell much more unities than the Pro.

PS4 Pro just had the same (tho overclocked) CPU and a considerable bump in the GPU side. It wasnt expensive to Sony.

A PS5 Pro would be similar, I bet. In CPU heavy games it would still not reach 60 fps. You would only get a resolution increase like the PS4 Pro.

Since consoles have been doing 30 FPS for decades now, you have already been waiting for PC versions to release for quite a while. So if you really want higher fidelity/fps, keep waiting. Consoles will always be like this.

From a personal perspective I don't care about price. I'm certain I'm not the only consumer that would be willing to pay more for more power either. Now does that work for them on a scale perspective (as in, are there enough of us to make it worth their while)? I don't know, but that's not my problem to work out. All I know is that I'd really rather not be playing FF XVI at 30fps right now in order to maintain what I deem to be acceptable IQ.

This is clearly a joke post.

Games get more complex over time, and the consoles power doesn’t ever increase. Meaning that games require more power to run at all, let alone meet your high expectations.

No, I just have standards, sorry.

 

[daninthemix]

Why is the DLC so much more demanding than the base game?

 

[Roxkis_ii]

Resolution isn't that important to me with upscaling getting good. I just want the frames and I've been pleased so far this gen.

 

[MikeM]

Yeah…these consoles are very underpowered. Im really glad I switched over to pc this year

Not underpowered, just the new minimum target.

 

[Moses85]

PS5 and XSX are maxed out

Spoiler

 

[Filben]

Pro consoles launches, they start getting 30 FPS games only with a higer resolution bump over PS5, people go "we need a Pro for the Pro consoles"

Just buy a PC if you want higher frames/resolution/fidelity

Its been that way for decades

Feel kinda the same. It's a never ending story. Even on PC, though. You do a major upgrade and now you can achieve FPS beyond 60 and you want +100 for many games and hence increase performance costs. If you decide to stick to 60fps you're maybe going to increase the resolution and/or RT settings.

From my experience, performance is rarely wasted, it is used for one thing or another. The thing on PC is, you choose for what. On console it is left for the devs and that is not always the option you would have choosen. Good thing is that options on console are increasing since the dawn of mid-gen refreshes. So at least we get options like fidelity and performance. It's something.

 

[twilo99]

VRR saving the day once again then

Of course, it’s awesome technology overall!

 

[Lucifers Beard]

No, I just have standards, sorry.

You sure do and there’s nothing wrong with that, although they’re unobtainable in this context. You can’t expect to buy a console in 2020 and expect it to reach both high resolutions and framerates in very clearly demanding games 3 years later when more powerful PCs have trouble.

This is why you have a PC I assume. So that you can play games at whatever framerate and resolution you desire.

 

[Belthazar]

So... We can expect 500p or less on Series S, right?

 

[FireFly]

Yeah what does AMD even have to offer right now for this mythical pro console?

The only off the shelf part with close to double the performance would be the 7800 XT (not yet released), but it's likely going to cost at least $500 on its own.

 

[GHG]

You sure do and there’s nothing wrong with that, although they’re unobtainable in this context. You can’t expect to buy a console in 2020 and expect it to reach both high resolutions and framerates in very clearly demanding games 3 years later when more powerful PCs have trouble.

This is why you have a PC I assume. So that you can play games at whatever framerate and resolution you desire.

I'm not expecting the 2020 hardware to do what I'm asking, which is why I'd like pro consoles to be an option. Many people seem to be against that option, for reasons I can't quite comprehend if I'm being honest.

 

[Celcius]

Yeah what does AMD even have to offer right now for this mythical pro console?

X3d cache and more memory for starters

 

[DragonNCM]

As this generation goes on we will be lucky if we get 1080P 30fps....

 

[Bernardougf]

900p and still looked good.

Because it does ... this 4k jerkoff is so blown out of proportion... and of course it looks better at 4k .. just need new console for that (and 60 fps

 

[Wulfer]

Here's what I have to say about Pro consoles.
Nintendo and Sega were tapping all the systems had and still pushing the hardware metal to do more! Ever since Sony and Microsoft entered 3rd gen these systems haven't been tapped. Everytime something gets hard "lets do a system refresh." How do you think Yu Suzuki, Shigeru Miyamoto, Shinji Mikami, Hironobu Sakaguchi, Todd Howard and Alex Seropian thought about hardware pre 2000's? These are just a few creators who took hardware for what it is and pushed the systems beyond their abilities. There was no "oh our hardware isn't strong enough" for these individuals! They just pushed past all that to deliver the job. It's sad when things get hard now days the answer must be a system refresh, upgrade or scrap it all together. During the 70's ,80's, 90's and even 2000's you built a game for the hardware given or you went out of business!

 

[Fake]

I guess people are missing the real point here.

I have nothing against PRO machines, they worked just fine on PS4\Xbox One generation, but I don't want to see they being used as an excuse for bad optimization.
PS5 and Series X are very good in specs for the price point, but the lack of proper engine (everything unreal engine), the push to raytracing and not to mention the lack of devs that can optmize codes day one are what is killing this consoles.

 

[Ivan]

With FSR 2, that's actually misinformation. You're not getting that output and pixel counters like DF keep calling it that way.

They should do the same for dlss and everything similar then and call it 720p or 1080p (or whichever base resolution is used).

Or they shouldn't, that would be even better. They should find more appropriate wording (and they only had that job since stuff like this is the point of their channel).

 

[winjer]

As this generation goes on we will be lucky if we get 1080P 30fps....

That is the goal that Epic stated when they presented UE5. 1080p upscaled at 30 fps.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

The only off the shelf part with close to double the performance would be the 7800 XT (not yet released), but it's likely going to cost at least $500 on its own.

And I wonder what it's power draw is?

 

[scydrex]

Where is series s?

 

[FireFly]

And I wonder what it's power draw is?

It's been estimated at ~270W.

 

[SmokedMeat]

That 8k logo on the box of my Ps5 looks more hideous as time goes by.

My PS4 Pro had a 4K logo on it. It’s all marketing bullshit to give buyers the illusion, that these boxes are more capable than they really are.

 

[01011001]

My PS4 Pro had a 4K logo on it. It’s all marketing bullshit to give buyers the illusion, that these boxes are more capable than they really are.

the difference being that the PS4 Pro actually supported 4K lol

 

[BootsLoader]

Well the performance of some other recent releases are showing even console focused devs are not getting much better performance, so maybe blaming cdpr for focusing on pc isn't really the whole story. These consoles seem to be struggling when the cpu and gpu are being pushed in tandem. We keep hearing about how good consoles are because of unified memory, but we might be seeing examples of the downside of that approach. Maybe because the cpus last gen were not strong enough and 30fps being the norm cpu latency and memory contention ended up not being an issue and the change to zen2 and higher frame rate targets have made it an issue. Zen2 performance being effected noticably even on the desktop by memory speed/latency.

Don’t take me wrong, I don’t blame CDPR. The consoles are 100% struggling and this is Sony and MS fault. I think they paid more attention to fast memory than a better CPU and GPU.

On the other hand, I am waiting to see what other big studios will do. For example, Naughty Dog and Santa Monica. They always set the benchmark and are optimization wizards. They get every last drop of power and use it effectively.

Time will tell, let’s see.

 

[TrebleShot]

For the life of me I can’t understand why a dev wouldn’t use the latest version of FSR, it’s free isn’t it? What’s the holdback there’s no excuse to be using FSR 1 in 2023.

 

[Azurro]

We need Pro consoles if we want to continue playing at 60 FPS. No amount of optimization on base consoles will fix this situation.

 

[JimRyanGOAT]

Im really hoping these Pro Consoles are spending their RND on better upscaling tech instead of trying to brute force frames through more expensive CPU's and GPU's

 

[01011001]

For the life of me I can’t understand why a dev wouldn’t use the latest version of FSR, it’s free isn’t it? What’s the holdback there’s no excuse to be using FSR 1 in 2023.

fsr2 has a performance cost, and it's also dogshit at low resolutions. fsr1 is basically free and can be used as an additional way to smooth over the edges.

you can't compare FSR1 and 2, they're completely different technologies for completely different purposes.

I personally hate to see either used tbh.

 

[Clear]

We need Pro consoles if we want to continue playing at 60 FPS. No amount of optimization on base consoles will fix this situation.

Get a PC if you absolutely have to have your stuff run at 60+.

If you are running on a fixed hardware spec, then there will always be a limit to hit sooner or later. A "Pro" console isn't any different, it might buy a period of time where the additional headroom is advantageous, but that gain isn't going to last forever.

So if this is something you demand, why not pick the platform with the highest frequency of hardware advancement? No console manufacturer is going to match the launch cadence of the big GPU vendors!

Honestly, I'm not super keen on mid-gen refeshes becoming normalized.

 

[SportsFan581]

I think you guys need to start change perspectives. Tools like DLSS, FSR2, the UE5 Temporal Super Resolution don't exist for nothing or to be used on top of a 4K native res.
Internal resolution doesn’t matter a lot if the final image quality is really good.
Spending the power not in running at a super high internal resolution but other aspects will enable the use of other impressive features, the temporal upscalers will still make the game look like it's super high res at expense of some minor artifacts.
This is the trend for the future.

This. The image in the video looks good.

They have some time to get the fps improved a bit, hopefully they can keep the dips in the typical VRR range (though I guess it already is on Xbox if you have a panel that can do 40hz without flickering).

 

[Azurro]

Get a PC if you absolutely have to have your stuff run at 60+.

If you are running on a fixed hardware spec, then there will always be a limit to hit sooner or later. A "Pro" console isn't any different, it might buy a period of time where the additional headroom is advantageous, but that gain isn't going to last forever.

So if this is something you demand, why not pick the platform with the highest frequency of hardware advancement? No console manufacturer is going to match the launch cadence of the big GPU vendors!

Honestly, I'm not super keen on mid-gen refeshes becoming normalized.

No need to get a PC. The PS5 and Xbox Series X would still be the main consoles, so performance would be calibrated to run on those. Besides, I like Sony's exclusives.

I don't understand this crabs in a bucket mentality. Why shouldn't others be able to get a mid gen refresh? Because then you'd feel bad you have less performing hardware? That's it?

 

[vkbest]

I love how DLSS was praised those last years, but when consoles use similar reconstruction techniques they are bad. I wonder if those are PC players who don't know what its the internal resolution when they are playing 4k DLSS performance/quality mode mocking consoles or console gamers don't know what is a reconstruction algorithm.

 

[Clear]

No need to get a PC. The PS5 and Xbox Series X would still be the main consoles, so performance would be calibrated to run on those. Besides, I like Sony's exclusives.

I don't understand this crabs in a bucket mentality. Why shouldn't others be able to get a mid gen refresh? Because then you'd feel bad you have less performing hardware? That's it?

I'd probably buy one, I did with the PS4 pro.

The issue is that the majority of PS4 owners didn't feel the need to, and I don't blame them for that. Its just more expense to the consumer and added weight on the devs to support and optimize yet another SKU.

At the end of the day, be it the Pro or the One X it isn't going to last any longer than the end of the base console's generation. So why should anyone get psyched over buying an expensive upgrade model that's going to last half a generation?

 

[Allandor]

When will people accept that consoles are no magic machines. There are and always will be compromises in games as this is the concept of a cheap console. It is a machine full of compromises and no SSD magic can fix that. IO is no longer a bottleneck and that is good, but CPU, bandwidth and GPU still are.