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[DoubleClutch]

Having played the Black Ops beta, it brings me back to that familiar feeling…

First of all, I always have a 20ms consistent ping. My internet is a hardwired 3Gbps up/down fiber optic connection (granted my NIC is only 2.5 GBPs).

Yet, there’s that fleeting feeling of inconsistency. I don’t get this feeling when I play CS for example (or other games). But I get it when I play COD.

A few matches it feels perfect, I get a 2.0+ KD ratio. I even win battles I feel I should’ve lost. Then the next couple of matches it’s like I forgot how to play. The hit detection feels off, my gun doesn’t feel as powerful, my spawns are garbage, it’s like everything in the game is slightly adjusted against me. I’m not playing any differently.

We know EOMM is a patent. A lot of people feel the same—that the game feels altered at times to steer it towards an outcome.

For me, I just want an honest match. I don’t care if I’m the worst player. It’s just a game in the end.

What do you guys think?

 

[West Texas CEO]

 

[Dorfdad]

100% companies want everyone to feel they are engaged and doing well if 10% of your audience is they only ones who do well that game will die.

Will they tell you this nope! But 100% a lot do

 

[DoubleClutch]

100% companies want everyone to feel they are engaged and doing well if 10% of your audience is they only ones who do well that game will die.

Will they tell you this nope! But 100% a lot do

Awful concept. It kills my joy to play when it’s a predetermined outcome.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Your first mistake is thinking online is a fair match in any regard. If you want fair then you need to go LAN.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Your first mistake is thinking online is a fair match in any regard. If you want fair then you need to go LAN.

Maybe I’m an old timer but back in the day it used to be for the most part. Playing XBL on Xbox OG and 360, and PS2 online, sure there were cheaters every now and then (it wasn’t as prevalent as it is now), but I always felt it a pretty fair ordeal. Why do you think otherwise?

 

[kevboard]

we have proof that it is. the whole debacle with Halo Infinite players. you could easily test it in that game.

I play Fortnite as one of my chill out MP games, and I can basically manipulate the EOMM at this point.
I literally manipulated my way to unlock higher tier versions of the Llama backbling

to unlock the higher versions you need to get a certain amount of kills and placements in the game. the only one I don't have is the final gold one, as that one would take too long to manipulate my way into, and I'm not that good in the game. but I got up to the second to last one (the progress resets each season)

and because I know how to manipulate the EOMM in Fortnite, I can also basically detect it in other games and can tell after a few weeks of playing how strong it is implemented.

in Fortnite you can manipulate it pretty easily while also verifying that it doesn't take your skill level into account, and only tries to manipulate your kill and win rates.
to do that I found a very easy way: Play Ranked...

I am decently ok in Ranked fortnite, my highest rank was Champion rank in Zero Build, which is the second highest you can get.

so here is me playing ranked in Champion rank, against other Champion ranked players, some Elite rank players and some Unreal ranked players mixed in as well. I get 2 or 3 kills, get a top 5 or top 3 placement, enough to rank up in the SECOND HIGHEST RANK in the game.

BUT, getting "only" top 3 or top 5 all the time, and "only" getting like 2 or 3 kills... that's not enough according to the EOMM system Epic Games has implemented here. BUT their system can not manipulate my ranked matches, because those are all matched through rankings not any EOMM shenanigans.
so I am playing and playing, ranked match after ranked match. slowly building up a series of games with no wins, and with "only" 3 kills or so because I am constantly up against the top 3 ranks in the entire game.

GUESS WHAT HAPPENS IF I NOW SWITCH TO NON-RANKED!? after basically blueballing the EOMM system for multiple matches...
you don't have to guess because I will tell you: I will literally get put into a bot match.

and when I say bot match, I am not only talking about low skill players (which often get colloquially called bots) but indeed LITERAL bots, which you can instantly spot as well due to how unnatural they move and react.
so after battling and battling the top rank players, getting good enough results in matches to increase my rank further and slowly inching towards the highest Unreal rank, the moment I play too many of such matches, the EOMM system will say "YOOOO you didn't get a win with 20 kills in a while! HERE YOU GO!"

and of course the opposite will happen if I play too much non-ranked and get too many wins and too many kills per match. what happens then is that I might as well play Champion level ranked matches as the experience will be the same as that or even worse.

this clearly demonstrates that the matchmaking system doesn't take into account my skill level, and only my kill stats and win stats over the last couple of games. a true SKILL BASED system would see me kill high rank players and placing high in high rank matches, and match me with similar players. which doesn't happen, clearly, as literal bot matches are quite the opposite of that. if you don't win such a match that I am talking about here you truly are awful at the game. these are matches with beginners and literal bots that can barely even be classified as opponents... they are shooting range targets

________________________________

in Apex Legends I also noticed it, but way less pronounced. and in Call of Duty it's also very obvious. in Halo it prevented some people from finding matches, because the game needs to manipulate not only the enemy team but also YOUR team to make you lose enough to keep you in the "sweetspot" determined by the devs and their EOMM system.
some of the best Halo players tried to queue into games with friends, and as soon as there is 2 of them in a party searching for matches, the matchmaking would go on for literally 40 minutes, because the EOMM system could not find enough SUPER BAD players to manipulate their team, and not enough really good players to manipulate their enemy team. so they were stuck in queue for 40+ minutes. if they lost 2 matches or so it would go back to normal again for a few matches until it would be back to 40min queues

 

[DoubleClutch]

we have proof that it is. the whole debacle with Halo Infinite players. you could easily test it in that game.

I play Fortnite as one of my chill out MP games, and I can basically manipulate the EOMM at this point.
I literally manipulated my way to unlock higher tier versions of the Llama backbling

to unlock the higher versions you need to get a certain amount of kills and placements in the game. the only one I don't have is the final gold one, as that one would take too long to manipulate my way into, and I'm not that good in the game. but I got up to the second to last one (the progress resets each season)

and because I know how to manipulate the EOMM in Fortnite, I can also basically detect it in other games and can tell after a few weeks of playing how strong it is implemented.

in Fortnite you can manipulate it pretty easily while also verifying that it doesn't take your skill level into account, and only tries to manipulate your kill and win rates.
to do that I found a very easy way: Play Ranked...

I am decently ok in Ranked fortnite, my highest rank was Champion rank in Zero Build, which is the second highest you can get.

so here is me playing ranked in Champion rank, against other Champion ranked players, some Elite rank players and some Unreal ranked players mixed in as well. I get 2 or 3 kills, get a top 5 or top 3 placement, enough to rank up in the SECOND HIGHEST RANK in the game.

BUT, getting "only" top 3 or top 5 all the time, and "only" getting like 2 or 3 kills... that's not enough according to the EOMM system Epic Games has implemented here. BUT their system can not manipulate my ranked matches, because those are all matched through rankings not any EOMM shenanigans.
so I am playing and playing, ranked match after ranked match. slowly building up a series of games with no wins, and with "only" 3 kills or so because I am constantly up against the top 3 ranks in the entire game.

GUESS WHAT HAPPENS IF I NOW SWITCH TO NON-RANKED!? after basically blueballing the EOMM system for multiple matches...
you don't have to guess because I will tell you: I will literally get put into a bot match.
and when I say bot match, I am not only talking about low skill players (which often get colloquially called bots) but indeed LITERAL bots, which you can instantly spot as well due to how unnatural they move and react.
so after battling and battling the top rank players, getting good enough results in matches to increase my rank further and slowly inching towards the highest Unreal rank, the moment I play too many of such matches, the EOMM system will say "YOOOO you didn't get a win with 20 kills in a while! HERE YOU GO!"

and of course the opposite will happen if I play too much non-ranked and get too many wins and too many kills per match. what happens then is that I might as well play Champion level ranked matches as the experience will be the same as that or even worse.

this clearly demonstrates that the matchmaking system doesn't take into account my skill level, and only my kill stats and win stats over the last couple of games. a true SKILL BASED system would see me kill high rank players and placing high in high rank matches, and match me with similar players. which doesn't happen, clearly, as literal bot matches are quite the opposite of that. if you don't win such a match that I am talking about here you truly are awful at the game. these are matches with beginners and literal bots that can barely even be classified as opponents... they are shooting range targets

________________________________

in Apex Legends I also noticed it, but way less pronounced. and in Call of Duty it's also very obvious. in Halo it prevented some people from finding matches, because the game needs to manipulate not only the enemy team but also YOUR team to make you lose enough to keep you in the "sweetspot" determined by the devs and their EOMM system.
some of the best Halo players tried to queue into games with friends, and as soon as there is 2 of them in a party searching for matches, the matchmaking would go on for literally 40 minutes, because the EOMM system could not find enough SUPER BAD players to manipulate their team, and not enough really good players to manipulate their enemy team. so they were stuck in queue for 40+ minutes. if they lost 2 matches or so it would go back to normal again for a few matches until it would be back to 40min queues

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Very interesting and takes away a lot of the desire to even play the games anymore.

 

[kevboard]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Very interesting and takes away a lot of the desire to even play the games anymore.

in Fortnite I don't really care, as to me that's just a game to fuck around in. I land, shoot down Mysterio, steal his weapon and medallion and make myself invisible to fuck with other players lol. and if I actually want to play real matches I just play ranked, which is thankfully exempt from this. which is also true in Apex Legends. ranked matchmaking in these games is purely determined by your team's rank.

it did however kinda ruin Call of Duty for me. which is why if I want to play a CoD like game now, I would go with xDefiant because that game has completely random matchmaking that only takes your connection speed into account (basically like classic CoD back in the modern warfare 2 days worked)

 

[Pop]

Yes its very much a thing. Last time I play COD years ago I felt that.

Same as in Apex or any other competitive shooter. Games will make you think your poppin off a match or two then kick you in the nuts with nothing but sweats

 

[Moridianae]

I've long felt Overwatch does this, even though they vehemently deny a "Forced 50/50 rate" or whatever.

I've seen it happen many times where the game will throw you in absolutely unwinnable games because you had a couple of games where you did fairly well.

 

[DoubleClutch]

in Fortnite I don't really care, as to me that's just a game to fuck around in. I land, shoot down Mysterio, steal his weapon and medallion and make myself invisible to fuck with other players lol. and if I actually want to play real matches I just play ranked, which is thankfully exempt from this. which is also true in Apex Legends. ranked matchmaking in these games is purely determined by your team's rank.

it did however kinda ruin Call of Duty for me. which is why if I want to play a CoD like game now, I would go with xDefiant because that game has completely random matchmaking that only takes your connection speed into account (basically like classic CoD back in the modern warfare 2 days worked)

Thanks for the suggestion, I will try xdefiant for sure.

And I agree, it ruined COD for me. I’d have a lot more fun as an honest garbage player who works to get better than play pretend to be good/bad.

 

[kevboard]

I've long felt Overwatch does this, even though they vehemently deny a "Forced 50/50 rate" or whatever.

I've seen it happen many times where the game will throw you in absolutely unwinnable games because you had a couple of games where you did fairly well.

back when I still played Halo Infinite it was quite hilarious how the game so clearly manipulated my teams.
I would get matches where I completely stomp the other team. followed by a match where we get a close win, and then I would usually get a match where I have 3 team mates that have 2 kills each by the end of the match, and I am over here trying my absolute best to win the match with 15+ kills and 2 deaths...
meanwhile the enemy team would have a perfectly balanced team who each have similar kills and deaths.

sometimes I would actually win such matches because while the game found horrifically bad players for my team, it didn't do quite a good enough job with the enemy team. so I would completely carry my team to victory while the other team was full of decent, but not decent enough players to beat me lol

 

[The_hunter]

I've long felt Overwatch does this, even though they vehemently deny a "Forced 50/50 rate" or whatever.

I've seen it happen many times where the game will throw you in absolutely unwinnable games because you had a couple of games where you did fairly well.

Splatoon probably has this too.

 

[kevboard]

Splatoon probably has this too.

not sure if Nintendo is "advanced" enough when it comes to online MP yet to have that tbh lol

 

[Lagspike_exe]

I always felt this in CoD, but I thought it was my internet. I can't believe they would implement something like this.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Depth with lan Ethernet error back on cod4, cheaters on later titles.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Maybe I’m an old timer but back in the day it used to be for the most part. Playing XBL on Xbox OG and 360, and PS2 online, sure there were cheaters every now and then (it wasn’t as prevalent as it is now), but I always felt it a pretty fair ordeal. Why do you think otherwise?

Old timer experience across games, tech and corporate support.

There are just too many issues across internetworking, cheater devices and matchmaking systems/abuse. The devs stand little chance these days.

 

[poppabk]

in Fortnite I don't really care, as to me that's just a game to fuck around in. I land, shoot down Mysterio, steal his weapon and medallion and make myself invisible to fuck with other players lol. and if I actually want to play real matches I just play ranked, which is thankfully exempt from this. which is also true in Apex Legends. ranked matchmaking in these games is purely determined by your team's rank.

it did however kinda ruin Call of Duty for me. which is why if I want to play a CoD like game now, I would go with xDefiant because that game has completely random matchmaking that only takes your connection speed into account (basically like classic CoD back in the modern warfare 2 days worked)

What the OP is talking about is a little different though. Manipulating the team makeup is a big difference to actually manipulating hit boxes, spawn points or weapon stats.
Not sure the latter happens, would be pretty dumb for them to implement something like that.

 

[kevboard]

What the OP is talking about is a little different though. Manipulating the team makeup is a big difference to actually manipulating hit boxes, spawn points or weapon stats.
Not sure the latter happens, would be pretty dumb for them to implement something like that.

EOMM is literally in the thread title tho...

 

[DoubleClutch]

What the OP is talking about is a little different though. Manipulating the team makeup is a big difference to actually manipulating hit boxes, spawn points or weapon stats.
Not sure the latter happens, would be pretty dumb for them to implement something like that.

SBMM =/= EOMM

Sledgehammer Games Reportedly Set to Develop 2027 "Call of Duty" Title

Insider Gaming's Tom Henderson has managed to glean information from a recent Sledgehammer Games "Town Hall" meeting—his source(s) allege that the Activision subsidiary is set for some major restructuring. Last week, Microsoft announced widespread cuts across its Xbox and Activision Blizzard...

www.techpowerup.com

Read mobiuus’s post in that thread… it does a great job of explaining it all.

 

[poppabk]

SBMM =/= EOMM

Sledgehammer Games Reportedly Set to Develop 2027 "Call of Duty" Title

Insider Gaming's Tom Henderson has managed to glean information from a recent Sledgehammer Games "Town Hall" meeting—his source(s) allege that the Activision subsidiary is set for some major restructuring. Last week, Microsoft announced widespread cuts across its Xbox and Activision Blizzard...

www.techpowerup.com

Read mobiuus’s post in that thread… it does a great job of explaining it all.

Yes but that isn't what you wrote about in your original post. What he wrote happens, what you wrote almost definitely doesn't.

 

[Three]

Yes its very much a thing. Last time I play COD years ago I felt that.

Same as in Apex or any other competitive shooter. Games will make you think your poppin off a match or two then kick you in the nuts with nothing but sweats

I don't think its even just sweats it will matchmake you with high ping to fill a lobby if it can.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Yes but that isn't what you wrote about in your original post. What he wrote happens, what you wrote almost definitely doesn't.

“EVERYTHING YOU DO IN THIS GAME IS A GAMBLE
Everything you do in this game is just a roll of the dice. It's not a skill based FPS, it's a glorified on-rail shooter. A former developer has even come out and said it.

Your gun does a different amount of damage depending on how you're playing.
-Same with it's accuracy.
-Same with your target tracking.
-Same with spawns.
-Same with the lobbies you're put into.
-If you purchase a weapon skin, they will make the gun perform well to have you believe it was a good purchase.”

 

[kevboard]

Yes but that isn't what you wrote about in your original post. What he wrote happens, what you wrote almost definitely doesn't.

what he wrote does happen to some degree as a side effect of EOMM. if the matchmaking system has to search for fitting players to manipulate your game outcome, what will happen is that the pool of possible players becomes smaller in matches where the game wants to strongly force a win or a loss.

if you shrink the possible player pool what happens? well, the likelihood that they are close to your location shrinks, which in return means you might get connected to a worse server, which then leads to lag spikes and generally a higher ping.

this is why the issues for some of the Halo infinite high skill players manifested so badly. some of them had to switch regions to even get into matches because in their region the game literally could not find players to manipulate the next match enough to force a loss.

meanwhile Modern Warfare 2 on 360 always searched for low ping games and low ping games only. every other parameter for matchmaking was either playing second fiddle to connection quality or did not exist in the first place

 

[Sushi_Combo]

Yes and I actively stay away from cod specifically for that reason.