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[Lazlo Woodbine]

Right...but...in the old show its pretty well established who the Doctor is. He's a rebel time lord. We see lots of other time lords, and sure, the Doctor is the one we care about but there's nothing mystical or philosophical about his nature.

Not sure if this is only in the books but in old-who lore the Doctor was brought into being by a process called "looming". If I'm remembering correctly he's meant to be the reincarnation of one of the Gallifreyan founders (the other), with Omega and Rassilon being the others.

 

[somedevil]

Just so I make sure that I've understood the gist of the plot for TWORS:

So the Silence wanted to create a fixed point in time where the Doctor dies and they did just that. Except the Doctor that was shot in The Impossible Astronaut was the Tesselector and was always the Tesselector. Time was screwed up by the Ponds trying to save him

They created their fixed point. But the Doctors still alive and now he'll be looking for answers, who blew up the Tardis and why etc etc.

"Silence will fall when the question is asked"? Does this mean that The Silence will be defeated when the Doctor answers the Question?

If thats the case then it must be some bloody answer.

Didn't they blow up the Tardis because they wanted to kill the doctor? They knew that blowing it up would require him to erase himself from time to save time itself. It failed because Amy remembered him so the silence then came up with this plot to kill him again. The only question is how were they able to control the tardis.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Was your question "The Question"?

Nope.

I just wanted to know who took control of the Tardis.

 

[maharg]

If you are really saying that's why people are complaining I think its clear you have missed the point.

The problem is its a cop out. There was a huge build up for a very simply 5 minute solution which was pretty damn predictable. It would be like hyping up the fact that the 1+1 = something very mysterious and then after spending an hour doing a maths equation turning around and saying "oh yeah btw 1+1=2 but the weird maths equation I just spent an hour doing may or may not be something worth looking into a year from now" Pretty weird analogy but meh.

Moffat literally planted the seed's to extremely interesting plot points and then gave the most flat uninteresting conclusion possible.

What, exactly, wouldn't have been a cop-out by your standards? If you exclude things that are 'obvious' (to us, at least, paying attention the whole way) and things that would kill the show (the doctor actually dying), that leaves, approximately, messy unpredictable nonsense endings like we kept getting under RTD. I can't fathom why anyone would prefer that.

There were always two possibilities for a reasonable ending, both foreshadowed within the season: The doctor was a double of some kind (but ganger never would have worked), or the doctor would somehow alter the fixed point in time as a redux of TGWW. Either of these are 'predictable', because we've been shown they can be done. But they make sense, and how exactly one of them would happen is the mystery.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Nope.

I just wanted to know who took control of the Tardis.

That was the Silence group. They piped their voice into the friggin' TARDIS before blowing it up. The real question is HOW they did it.

 

[StealthGoblin]

That was the Silence group. They piped their voice into the friggin' TARDIS before blowing it up. The real question is HOW they did it.

Massive. Fucking. Letdown.

Those fuckers will never bring back Omega will they?

 

[King of the Potato People]

The Doctor's real name is Sweetie!
The forum meltdowns would be hilarious. It was the answer in plain sight.

 

[APZonerunner]

No, no, no. There won't be 'specials' next year. It'll be another 13 episodes with a Christmas special, but starting in the Autumn this time. It might be that they'll do all 13 episodes right after each other, it might be that they do 7 episodes/Christmas special/6 episodes. But there's definitely a full set of episodes next year. No worries.

If it's 7/Xmas/6, it's not a full set in 2012. Sure, we're getting 13 overall, but then do they say "you've had six episodes in 2013, we've booked a Christmas special too, see you next year?" You have to keep in mind that for the average BBC series like Hustle or Spooks or Life on Mars 6-8 episodes is the normal series size, so the BBC could easily spin this as a 2012 and 2013 series filmed concurrently to save on budget and then air them as two smaller series as with this year, but across two years.

The BBC is being cagey which means there will be something weird about scheduling next year. When they made the announcement everything from the phrasing of the Press Release to Moffat's weird, standoffish attitude on Twitter that neither debunked nor confirmed exactly how this stuff would go down, strikes me as weird.

Matt's very in demand, also - the whole situation smacks of how they spread Tennant's finale out in order to keep him for a whole extra year. Maybe this decision has been made so hie 'regin' stretches, technically, to 2013, as Tennant's did to 2010.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Massive. Fucking. Letdown.

Those fuckers will never bring back Omega will they?

Moffat has made me not give a shit about any other old Who enemies. So no, probably not

 

[Clegg]

Didn't they blow up the Tardis because they wanted to kill the doctor? They knew that blowing it up would require him to erase himself from time to save time itself. It failed because Amy remembered him so the silence then came up with this plot to kill him again. The only question is how were they able to control the tardis.

At the very end of "The Big Bang" the Doctor commented to Amy that questions were still unanswered about the Tardis being destroyed.

I was hoping that this season they would show how the Tardis blew up but I don't think it was even mentioned once this season. We also don't know how the Silence took over the Tardis either.

I hope Moffat hasnt dropped that plot point completely.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

Some nice moments, but also a little unsatisfying. The fact that the resolution to the Doctor's death was 'it was a space robot lol' is rather underwhelming.
I just don't think Moffat does arcs very well, and I'm pleased they seem to be making next year less arc-heavy.
Amy with a machine gun was good though.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Moffat has made me not give a shit about any other old Who enemies. So no, probably not

Interesting. His reign has made me long for them even more because I think he could do amazing stuff with them. I like the concept behind Moffats new villains, but they seem like one trick ponies. The Weeping Angels and The Silents don't do anything for me anymore.

I feel like Moffat could do a Nolan and breathe new life into old stuff.

 

[somedevil]

What, exactly, wouldn't have been a cop-out by your standards? If you exclude things that are 'obvious' (to us, at least, paying attention the whole way) and things that would kill the show (the doctor actually dying), that leaves, approximately, messy unpredictable nonsense endings like we kept getting under RTD. I can't fathom why anyone would prefer that.

There were always two possibilities for a reasonable ending, both foreshadowed within the season: The doctor was a double of some kind (but ganger never would have worked), or the doctor would somehow alter the fixed point in time as a redux of TGWW. Either of these are 'predictable', because we've been shown they can be done. But they make sense, and how exactly one of them would happen is the mystery.

I'm just hoping nobody wants to go back to endings like this:

 

[bobs...onGaf]

What, exactly, wouldn't have been a cop-out by your standards? If you exclude things that are 'obvious' (to us, at least, paying attention the whole way) and things that would kill the show (the doctor actually dying), that leaves, approximately, messy unpredictable nonsense endings like we kept getting under RTD. I can't fathom why anyone would prefer that.

There were always two possibilities for a reasonable ending, both foreshadowed within the season: The doctor was a double of some kind (but ganger never would have worked), or the doctor would somehow alter the fixed point in time as a redux of TGWW. Either of these are 'predictable', because we've been shown they can be done. But they make sense, and how exactly one of them would happen is the mystery.

Im not a writer. I watch this stuff on TV because I dont have the imagination to write it. This year we had essentially a season long build up to the episode where we see the Dr Die. We had a huge build up to the episode where we see the Dr do something brilliant and literally weasel out of his death.

A cop out is then spending that episode deviating away from how he deals with his death and instead making up a story about how River had killed time by screwing up that fixed point where he dies. A real dissapointing cop out is when we finally arrive back from the alternate reality to see how the Dr weaselled out of his death just to discover it was a robot pretending to be the Dr the entire time. That is not exactly a good conclusion to such a hyped up build up.

I would call this a messy nonsense episode in terms of the fact we literally spent the majority of it deviated away in a alternate universe. Moffat had to somehow think of a way to stop the Dr's death within the confines of the shows reality. If his solution wasnt just that of creating a weird robot thing that can turn into anything I would have been a lot more impressed. After that set up its Moffats job to think outside the box and manage to brilliantly stop the Dr's death while staying in the confines of the show.

As a writer if you havent got a solution planned out for your brilliant cool idea you really should think of another brilliant cool idea which does has a clever solution. Asking me to think of a solution to Moffats story arc is as nonsensical as creating a story arc with no real sensible solution in the first place lol.

 

[isny]

Ugh, Moff just can't do a finale. Please let someone else step in and take over.

That episode was really terrible. And the talking blue head at the end basically breaking the fourth wall and telling people what the arch of the next season will be was just sloppy writing. They may as well have had Moff show up during the credits in a little picture in picture reminding people all of those things will happen next season, that's how shoehorned that felt.

At least we had a few good episodes this season, but it seems without Jane Tranter, Julie, RTD, etc. that this show is going to fall apart. (One episode finale with terrible writing, losing Confidential, terrible pacing, boring archs, etc.)

Having Meredith Vierra was a nice touch though, and was that Ian McKellen as Dickens?

edit: The shout out to the Brig was also nice, but he should have called for both Brig and Sarah Jane and found out they both passed, which would have put more fuel on the fire for him to decide to go die. The whole scene of him accepting his death though after calling for the Brig is kind of meaningless however when we find out he cheated death anyways.

 

[APZonerunner]

I'm just hoping nobody wants to go back to endings like this:

You know, while the visual manifestation of this ending was absolutely shit and terrible, the underlying core things of what happened between characters - Martha's growth, the 'enduring faith' of humanity, Lucy Saxon's betrayal, and The Doctor's inability to do anything but forgive The Master (and how he's a blubbering mess when his plans go awry) are actually really clever.

Classic RTD though, really. Great character work, lacking execution on the actual story.

An RTD/Moffat team would be just about unstoppable. Or even a team where Moffat wrote the actual story and RTD wrote the character stuff. Lordy. One can dream.

 

[The Elite]

And I really hate how this entire episode was just a lot of misdirection because clearly if they had not bothered with deviating from the real story so much the 5 minute actual conclusion to the season. (That the Dr that died was really just a double) wouldnt have filled up enough time. Seriously I suppose the journey was pretty awesome, but the conclusion was pretty lame.

The deviation related to the title of the episode. It didn't just have to be about the Death of the Doctor.

 

[JonathanEx]

On the airing debate, wherever they put it, I hope they just don't cock it up and like this year and the specials. End of the year, fine, as long as it's all together. BBC need to stop dicking around with cuts, giving BBC money and get the fuck back on the ball. Delivering Quality First as the name for cutbacks (throwing away quality to keep BBC Three to tick some yoof box) is the biggest bit of ironic naming since Daily Mirror started sponsoring the 'Pride of Britain' awards.

An RTD/Moffat team would be just about unstoppable. Or even a team where Moffat wrote the actual story and RTD wrote the character stuff. Lordy. One can dream.

YES.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Interesting. His reign has made me long for them even more because I think he could do amazing stuff with them. I like the concept behind Moffats new villains, but they seem like one trick ponies. The Weeping Angels and The Silents don't do anything for me anymore.

I feel like Moffat could do a Nolan and breathe new life into old stuff.

I agree that, yeah, the Silents and the Angels (Angels way more so) don't really have much room to grow beyond their original role, but what I meant was that I'd rather Moffat create more new villains, rather than take on old stuff.

He doesn't seem particularly interested in bringing back old stuff in his own scripts, anyway, hence the handing-off of the Silurians and Cybermats to other writers. His human characters are great anyway, I wanna see much more of Madame Kovarian.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Having Meredith Vierra was a nice though though, and was that Ian McKellen as Dickens?

Simon Callow.

 

[Suairyu]

So like...

we still don't know really what was up with the cracks and the 'silence' (as opposed to The Silent) that was all of series 5. So the silence was The Doctor's? Aaaand that created cracks in the Universe from which silence poured and etc. etc. etc.

Either series 7 is going to tie everything together and make us all go 'ooooh' or I'm gonna consider all series 5 nothing but treading water.

But that 'Doctor Who[?]' is going to be more than a line of dialogue/joke is quite brilliant, actually.

Overall: this has been the most disappointing half series ever. Some good moments, but nothing outstanding. I've only tuned in each week because someone has reminded me to, rather than I was actually excited.

 

[APZonerunner]

On the airing debate, wherever they put it, I hope they just don't cock it up and like this year and the specials. End of the year, fine, as long as it's all together.

I don't have a lot of faith in this decision-making process at the BBC, sadly. I actually think the earlier prediction of 7/Christmas/6 might come to pass, with a regeneration at the end.

Having Meredith Vierra was a nice touch though, and was that Ian McKellen as Dickens?

Dickens is a call-back to the RTD-era episode where he was the major guest character, and he's played by the same actor.

 

[somedevil]

I enjoyed the episode and I like moffat and his plots, but from reading the posts here were going to go back into the usual circle of posting here. Where the episode shows a good deal love it and then comes the one that hate it.

Then it goes back and forth with those for moffat and those against him until the next episode airs.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

The deviation related to the title of the episode. It didn't just have to be about the Death of the Doctor.

But even then the marriage was like a 5 minuite cherry on top and wasnt related to the episode in any way at all. It wasnt like it mattered to the outcome either way. I just dont like how we spent a season following the story forshadowed by the Dr's death and then didnt really get a good episode dealing with it.

I think Dr Who is extremely good when each episode is just its own self contained story. Im not a fan of how Moffat puts season wide story arcs just to make the season finale a deviation. I enjoyed the episode on its own merits but as part of a bigger picture it failed horribly. I think RTD did it better in terms of not confining the show to a arc and literally allowing the Dr to go wherever. Each episode was a lot more interesting that way. Sure the season finales always sucked, but at least the overall arc didnt limit the season as a whole. RTD has his fair share of weak solutions to brilliant problems but at least we got some standalone episodes which were pretty good.

 

[infiniteloop]

Ian McKellen as Dickens?

Same actor as before.

 

[Big Papa Husker]

Any chance that the River that "dies" in the Library is the Tesselecta? ;D

 

[JonathanEx]

I don't have a lot of faith in this decision-making process at the BBC, sadly. I actually think the earlier prediction of 7/Christmas/6 might come to pass, with a regeneration at the end.

That wouldn't be so bad (apart from the regeneration bit, I do like Matt Smith, but the "fall of the 11th" has now already made sure that's going to happen). There'd be the risk of getting too close to X Factor though which the BBC would be scared shitless by (I seem to remember them guessing when it'd be on for Waters of Mars?).

...a few years ago, maybe actually, now they put on Don't Scare the Hare. Fuckwits.

I think the head of the Beeb is coming up to my uni sometime next year. It's time for slaps.

 

[bengraven]

Pond. Amelia Pond.

God damn she looks goooooood.

 

[Goldrush]

The "Question" is absolutely brilliant. The entire nursery rhyme smashed right through the fourth wall. I'm not even sure if the question itself is another arc or just another fourth wall nod. For such a general question, the only time that could be answered is when the series ends, in which case "silence will fall."

 

[Thomper]

If it's 7/Xmas/6, it's not a full set in 2012. Sure, we're getting 13 overall, but then do they say "you've had six episodes in 2013, we've booked a Christmas special too, see you next year?" You have to keep in mind that for the average BBC series like Hustle or Spooks or Life on Mars 6-8 episodes is the normal series size, so the BBC could easily spin this as a 2012 and 2013 series filmed concurrently to save on budget and then air them as two smaller series as with this year, but across two years.

The BBC is being cagey which means there will be something weird about scheduling next year. When they made the announcement everything from the phrasing of the Press Release to Moffat's weird, standoffish attitude on Twitter that neither debunked nor confirmed exactly how this stuff would go down, strikes me as weird.

Matt's very in demand, also - the whole situation smacks of how they spread Tennant's finale out in order to keep him for a whole extra year. Maybe this decision has been made so hie 'regin' stretches, technically, to 2013, as Tennant's did to 2010.

Eh. 2013 is the 50th anniversary of Doctor Who. The BBC will want to milk that for all it's worth. If anything, I'm sure that year will bring us more Doctor Who, not less.

I think they did the split this year to make the transition to Doctor Who being a autumn, not a spring show slightly smoother, and they'll now have the whole 13 episode season air starting in august/september with no interruptions. Or at least, that's what I'm hoping. We'll probably know by the time the Christmas special airs.

 

[APZonerunner]

That wouldn't be so bad (apart from the regeneration bit, I do like Matt Smith, but the "fall of the 11th" has now already made sure that's going to happen. There'd be the risk of getting too close to X Factor though which the BBC would be scared shitless by.

...a few years ago, maybe actually, now they put on Don't Scare the Hare.

I think the head of the Beeb is coming up to my uni sometime next year. It's time for slaps.

The problem is, I think, still down to the lack of a strong head. Julie Gardner especially but also Phil Collinson and RTD really used to fight tooth and nail for the show, and while I don't doubt that Moffat, Willis and Wenger all worked really hard, they just don't seem to have the same tenacity.

That original core team really fucking fought - constantly getting extended time-slots for 50, 55 and even hour-long episodes and finding the extra budget to fund those on-screen minutes too, and really fighting hard, pushing the show back up the schedule to the desired start-time and stuff.

I think while the debate can definitely be had about the quality of the RTD era and decisions made that aspect of running the show is something that team absolutely kicked arse on - and they are most certainly missed in that department.

Compared to Julie, who - you can hear in the DVD commentaries - knew nothing about Who during Series 1, and just believed in Davies and Collinson - and then over the years you hear this wonderful change in those commentaries as she becomes a fan - as she confesses to watching Tomb and Earthshock before tackling the Cybermen in series 2 etc - while Davies and Collinson were just massive fanboys of the old show anyway - Moffat's been surrounded by less-interested people, who I think have been more interested in climbing the BBC ladder.

 

[The Elite]

I'm just hoping nobody wants to go back to endings like this:

That's what concerns me. There were only so many ways the Doctor was going to get out of this alive. He couldn't ACTUALLY be dead at the end of this. I'd rather have what we got than some random Jesus ressurrection. At least this fits in the continuity of what we saw this season. It makes sense.

 

[Thomper]

The problem is, I think, still down to the lack of a strong head. Julie Gardner especially but also Phil Collinson and RTD really used to fight tooth and nail for the show, and while I don't doubt that Moffat, Willis and Wenger all worked really hard, they just don't seem to have the same tenacity.

That original core team really fucking fought - constantly getting extended time-slots for 50, 55 and even hour-long episodes and finding the extra budget to fund those on-screen minutes too, and really fighting hard, pushing the show back up the schedule to the desired start-time and stuff.

I think while the debate can definitely be had about the quality of the RTD era and decisions made that aspect of running the show is something that team absolutely kicked arse on - and they are most certainly missed in that department.

Compared to Julie, who - you can hear in the DVD commentaries - knew nothing about Who during Series 1, and just believed in Davies and Collinson - and then over the years you hear this wonderful change in those commentaries as she becomes a fan - as she confesses to watching Tomb and Earthshock before tackling the Cybermen in series 2 etc - while Davies and Collinson were just massive fanboys of the old show anyway - Moffat's been surrounded by less-interested people, who I think have been more interested in climbing the BBC ladder.

This is true. I don't know about the producers of the Moffat-era, so I won't judge them, but reading The Writer's Tale, one thing becomes clear about RTD: that man knew how to fight for Doctor Who, and would fight hard. Not that Moffat doesn't, but RTD made sure BBC gave DW all the love it could give it.

Not entirely sure if it's just the new team, or also the BBC having to cut back on *everything*. As popular as DW is, the BBC is getting less and less money while people still expect it to put out the same amount of amazing drama, documentaries and comedies each year.

But yeah. I'd love to see RTD back. I always enjoyed his episodes - the resolution for the big finales were always kinda silly, but the man was still a great writer in many respects. Let's hope Moffat can drag him back from America and get him to do an episode or two next season.

 

[Incendiary]

So the gist of what I'm getting from the people that didn't like the finale, is that you expected the whole episode to be the Doctor figuring out how to get out of his death, but instead got a story about River not wanting to let the Doctor go?

Would the finale have been better if it was a two-part episode, the first episode being the first half of the episode expanded, where The Doctor is explaining what happened to Churchill. Except we do it without the Churchill part, it's just a straight story of The Doctor in his last moments, trying to avoid his death but eventually accepting it. We go through everything, then the cliffhanger ending of part one is him at Lake Silencio and River halting time. Then the second part of the episode is the alternate reality part, expanded, possibly including the Churchill stuff but without it being a montage/story type thing. And the Tesselecta solution is revealed at the end of part two, with the Tesselecta not having appeared in that entire episode due to it being only having to do with the alternate timeline. Would that have been more satisfying?

 

[APZonerunner]

This is true. I don't know about the producers of the Moffat-era, so I won't judge them, but reading The Writer's Tale, one thing becomes clear about RTD: that man knew how to fight for Doctor Who, and would fight hard. Not that Moffat doesn't, but RTD made sure BBC gave DW all the love it could give it.

Not entirely sure if it's just the new team, or also the BBC having to cut back on *everything*. As popular as DW is, the BBC is getting less and less money while people still expect it to put out the same amount of amazing drama, documentaries and comedies each year.

But yeah. I'd love to see RTD back. I always enjoyed his episodes - the resolution for the big finales were always kinda silly, but the man was still a great writer in many respects. Let's hope Moffat can drag him back from America and get him to do an episode or two next season.

I think, ultimately, it's a bit of both. The BBC clearly want a lot from Moffat, too, and there's that whole weird thing where when they announced there might be less than 13 episodes in 2012 a BBC boss-man said it was to give Moffat more time for Sherlock, which Moffat promptly said was bollocks on Twitter - it's all weird.

The show is all-consuming. Reading the Writers' Tale it becomes clear that it almost killed RTD a few times, and so in many ways you can't expect the man to be as 'big' as RTD. He has a wife and kids, for a start, whereas RTD had no kids and what sounds like a very bloody understanding boyfriend.

I do think Moffat's team has been a bit shit, though. The fact that you know nothing about Wenger and Willis - and neither do I - says a lot, as Gardner and Collinson were in the thick of it knee-deep in shit almost 24/7 for the show, and so the fans came to know a lot about them. This was the final episode for both of them, so we'll see who comes in next year.

For the record, Moffat's invited RTD back on both his series' and RTD has declined twice. Maybe now Torchwood appears to have burned in large part because he handed so much of it off to Jane Epsenson he might consider it. That's a real story for 'never meet your heroes' - RTD loved her for her work on Buffy and even wrote about her in The Writers' Tale and she totally fucked Torchwood; her episodes were diabolical.

 

[JonathanEx]

We've lost two of those weaker links though, so 2012 could be interesting - through wonder if the changing production team means they won't be as strong? There seems to be some learning of lessons, although it's not a 7pm start it's been closer to that and near the end even RTD's team wouldn't win that bullshit.

This is the time that the team need to be big and bold - we've lost Confidential, losing Sarah Jane, the UK lost control of Torchwood (it's a US show now, good as dead from BBC financial POV, they would only stick up a third of it). If none of the money saved from losing those stops loving Doctor Who from being struck by the 20% cross BBC cutbacks (or other Doctor Who projects don't get started) then it's not good.

The Adventure Games, is technically a big move for the BBC but the quality isn't great. When they say they'll go big on the 50th anniversary, does that mean modern day BBC goes big, that they'll stick more trailers on, make a little logo and do a live special on BBC Three after an episode hosted by Richard Bacon with some VTs as previous Doctors tell us which episodes they liked?

I mean, right now, we're not even getting per-episode commentaries on the DVDs. I know it's tiny, but for fucks sake they're tiny, and no-one wants invision ones for 6 episodes rather than audio for 13.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

So the gist of what I'm getting from the people that didn't like the finale, is that you expected the whole episode to be the Doctor figuring out how to get out of his death, but instead got a story about River not wanting to let the Doctor go?

Would the finale have been better if it was a two-part episode, the first episode being the first half of the episode expanded, where The Doctor is explaining what happened to Churchill. Except we do it without the Churchill part, it's just a straight story of The Doctor in his last moments, trying to avoid his death but eventually accepting it. We go through everything, then the cliffhanger ending of part one is him at Lake Silencio and River halting time. Then the second part of the episode is the alternate reality part, expanded, possibly including the Churchill stuff but without it being a montage/story type thing. And the Tesselecta solution is revealed at the end of part two, with the Tesselecta not having appeared in that entire episode due to it being only having to do with the alternate timeline. Would that have been more satisfying?

In my mind no. The Tesselecta being the cop out was my problem with the episode. I quite enjoyed the episode itself despite it being a huge deviation from the plot at hand. If they could have somehow used that deviation to explain the Dr's brilliant method to escape his death I would have been more impressed.

I dont know if I even make sense. Really as much as I disliked the deviation basically being used as misdirection. If they somehow thought of a better solution for the Dr's death the deviation would have been a nice 50 minuite frolic.

I just feel like it was used as misdirection because Moffat couldnt think of how to spend the rest of the episode. Really the conclusion to the entire season was done in 5 minuites with the Dr simply using the Tesselecta to avoid having to die. There was no way Moffat could drag that out to be an hour long so he threw in the alt dimension stuff to eat up time. Is the way I see it.

 

[isny]

So the gist of what I'm getting from the people that didn't like the finale, is that you expected the whole episode to be the Doctor figuring out how to get out of his death, but instead got a story about River not wanting to let the Doctor go?

Would the finale have been better if it was a two-part episode, the first episode being the first half of the episode expanded, where The Doctor is explaining what happened to Churchill. Except we do it without the Churchill part, it's just a straight story of The Doctor in his last moments, trying to avoid his death but eventually accepting it. We go through everything, then the cliffhanger ending of part one is him at Lake Silencio and River halting time. Then the second part of the episode is the alternate reality part, expanded, possibly including the Churchill stuff but without it being a montage/story type thing. And the Tesselecta solution is revealed at the end of part two, with the Tesselecta not having appeared in that entire episode due to it being only having to do with the alternate timeline. Would that have been more satisfying?

Episode one being in the alternate timeline and episode two being the doctor finding a way to prevent his death would have definitely worked better.

If they really wanted to set up Smith dying, they should have just used it as his exit. Given him two full 45+ minute episodes for the finale, used the scene where he calls Brig, Sarah Jane, etc., finds out they're dead, and eventually goes off to die and then some wibbly wobbly thing makes him regen.

Pond. Amelia Pond.

God damn she looks goooooood.

Here are some screencaps for ya or anyone who wants em for avatars =) (Click for bigger size)

 

[APZonerunner]

We've lost two of those weaker links though, so 2012 could be interesting - through wonder if the changing production team means they won't be as strong? There seems to be some learning of lessons, although it's not a 7pm start it's been closer to that and near the end even RTD's team wouldn't win that bullshit.

This is the time that the team need to be big and bold - we've lost Confidential, losing Sarah Jane, the UK lost control of Torchwood (it's a US show now, good as dead from BBC financial POV, they would only stick up a third of it). If none of the money saved from losing those stops loving Doctor Who from being struck by the 20% cross BBC cutbacks (or other Doctor Who projects don't get started) then it's not good.

The Adventure Games, is technically a big move for the BBC but the quality isn't great. When they say they'll go big on the 50th anniversary, does that mean modern day BBC goes big, that they'll stick more trailers on, make a little logo and do a live special on BBC Three after an episode hosted by Richard Bacon with some VTs as previous Doctors tell us which episodes they liked?

Well, that's what the BBC does, isn't it? We'll get a fairly shitty bunch of special documentaries cut out of old Doctor Who confidential footage to mark the 50th, they'll probably air the first few episodes on BBC Four (if it still exists!) and ask people to be thankful for it. Probably. Lots of clip shows. Dr Whos greatest enemies! The best of the companions! etc etc.

As far as special stories go, multiple Doctors is probably what we'll get. It worked for a Children in Need sketch but they really can't bring back any of the Doctors pre-7. Eccleston will never come back. McGann's weird because he only ever made one appearance, so their only real trick card to play is to bring Tennant back in. I wouldn't mind seeing Tennant and Matt interact.

If they were really brave if Matt is indeed set to regenerate in 2013 they could kill him, introduce twelve and have Tennant return all in one episode (and have Matt show up later post-death through Moffat's much-loved time bending stuff). If it'd be wise to debut the new guy alongside two much-loved Doctors is another question, mind.

Oh, quick note on this episode: Absolutely thrilled with them addressing the Brig. Wonderful. I really don't expect them to address Lis Sladen's death any time soon, though - it sounds like SJA is going to end on a "they adventured happily ever after" tone, and they likely won't want to interrupt that in Who for a good few years.

 

[Incendiary]

I just feel like it was used as misdirection because Moffat couldnt think of how to spend the rest of the episode. Really the conclusion to the entire season was done in 5 minuites with the Dr simply using the Tesselecta to avoid having to die. There was no way Moffat could drag that out to be an hour long so he threw in the alt dimension stuff to eat up time. Is the way I see it.

I see. So basically, if the alternate reality had tied into the solution it would have been fine. Or if it was removed entirely, and the finale basically became the Doctor's story to Churchill except for a full episode and not a story, with the Tesselecta being the solution, that way there was no misdirection.

I dunno, I kind of liked the episode as misdirection. Moffat's been great at intricate stuff and crazy plot threads, and I think it being a simple solution with a "hey, look how easy it was!" is actually a twist in itself to what he usually does. But I understand why it would rub people the wrong way.

 

[JonathanEx]

Well, that's what the BBC does, isn't it? We'll get a fairly shitty bunch of special documentaries cut out of old Doctor Who confidential footage to mark the 50th, they'll probably air the first few episodes on BBC Four (if it still exists!) and ask people to be thankful for it. Probably. Lots of clip shows. Dr Whos greatest enemies! The best of the companions! etc etc.

They won't show old episodes if BBC Worldwide want to sell a special edition of DVDs, of course, so it's going to be another series of clip shows like that shitty Doctor Who Greatest Moments on BBC Three.

Maybe some radio promotion for it too. Multiplatform event, see. Oh and a website where you can submit your greatest moments. Via Twitter. On the hashtag #bbcdw rather than #doctorwho.

Geeze the BBC is an abusive relationship right now. You want to love them but they just keep hurting the good things. They couldn't even get Confidential's timeslot right this week. I'm not a big fan of that but at least don't screw things up on the last episode.

 

[Goldrush]

Amy's memory must be a complete mess. River and the Doctor jumped back and forth in time, but their memory is still a straightforward point a to point b. However, Amy consistently have her whole life rewritten and she still remember all of it. For example, to her, would the alternate timeline memory appears after the Doctor is shot or after she parted ways with the Doctor?

 

[Lazlo Woodbine]

I enjoyed the episode and I like moffat and his plots, but from reading the posts here were going to go back into the usual circle of posting here. Where the episode shows a good deal love it and then comes the one that hate it.

Then it goes back and forth with those for moffat and those against him until the next episode airs.

Isn't that the same situation for any other show (esp. in GAF threads)? Are you trying to say that you're bored of critique? lol

For the record, I am usually a massive fan of Moffat's writing, and him as a showrunner in general, but there were just too many things wrong with the way this episode was executed for me to enjoy it.

What, exactly, wouldn't have been a cop-out by your standards? If you exclude things that are 'obvious' (to us, at least, paying attention the whole way) and things that would kill the show (the doctor actually dying), that leaves, approximately, messy unpredictable nonsense endings like we kept getting under RTD. I can't fathom why anyone would prefer that.

Why did it have to be one or the other though? What I enjoyed about last season - and what I thought would be replicated again - were the small hints (the Doctors missing jacket etc) that paid off in the finale. There was nothing like that here. Instead we got a 5 min scene between River and Amy, at the end, attempting to spell out what Moffat needed to shoehorn in.

Sure, the gangers, the robots and such were obvious candidates for doctor fodder but I expected something a little less mundane then what we got. To me at least, this episode felt like a casualty of the budget cuts and all the behind-the-scenes drama Who has been suffering from as of late.

To be fair to Moffat though, the direction was also all over the place.

@I agree with a comment made before about the half season shenanigans; definitely not good for Doctor Who in the long run. That said, I was thouroughly enjoying the last few episodes. Not sure why people are hating on them and then praising the finale.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Disgusting. Doctor Who in name only.

Moffat continues his disturbing trend of tossing a bunch of garbage at the wall in order to see what sticks, and this episode fetishizes the Doctor even more than any previous episode. There was no subversion, we just get a bunch of discussion about wonderful the Doctor is and how every single being in all of reality is creaming their pants at the thought of him, while the Doctor runs off making googly eyes at a crazed murderer. The resolution to the season long story arc was both disappointing and poorly executed. It was, in a word, cheap. Amidst all this, we got more of Moffat sticking his right wing views down our throat with the Doctor palling around with Churchill. Genuinely a disgusting bit of television with no narrative structure or purpose.

This was the worst episode of Doctor Who since Flight through Eternity.

 

[Lazlo Woodbine]

 

[bengraven]

Disgusting. Doctor Who in name only.

Moffat continues his disturbing trend of tossing a bunch of garbage at the wall in order to see what sticks, and this episode fetishizes the Doctor even more than any previous episode. There was no subversion, we just get a bunch of discussion about wonderful the Doctor is and how every single being in all of reality is creaming their pants at the thought of him, while the Doctor runs off making googly eyes at a crazed murderer. The resolution to the season long story arc was both disappointing and poorly executed. It was, in a word, cheap. Amidst all this, we got more of Moffat sticking his right wing views down our throat with the Doctor palling around with Churchill. Genuinely a disgusting bit of television with no narrative structure or purpose.

This was the worst episode of Doctor Who since Flight through Eternity.

Ugh, I've been debating on just ignoring your posts for months now and I think this just confirmed it.

 

[Clegg]

Disgusting. Doctor Who in name only.

Moffat continues his disturbing trend of tossing a bunch of garbage at the wall in order to see what sticks, and this episode fetishizes the Doctor even more than any previous episode. There was no subversion, we just get a bunch of discussion about wonderful the Doctor is and how every single being in all of reality is creaming their pants at the thought of him, while the Doctor runs off making googly eyes at a crazed murderer. The resolution to the season long story arc was both disappointing and poorly executed. It was, in a word, cheap. Amidst all this, we got more of Moffat sticking his right wing views down our throat with the Doctor palling around with Churchill. Genuinely a disgusting bit of television with no narrative structure or purpose.

This was the worst episode of Doctor Who since Flight through Eternity.

I think you have now descended into a parody of yourself.

 

[Hot Coldman]

SHIT MY EARS

someone turn the hyperbole down, you'll wake the neighbours

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

I think you have now descended into a parody of yourself.

Why, because I didn't love the episode? There wasn't even a narrative. It was just a bunch of crap thrown at the wall.

I want to love it, but it just makes me sad seeing what Moffat is doing to this show that I love.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

Ugh, I've been debating on just ignoring your posts for months now and I think this just confirmed it.

Wait...we can ignore people??

WIN