Support NeoGAF

[Clegg]

It seems like Moffat hijacked the quality of the episode in order to perform a giant fuck you to the critics.

Worse then any RTD finale...and I don't say that lightly. Least fav Moffat episode by miles and I'm genuinely gutted at all the wasted plot threads. River was just acting THE WHOLE TIME LOL. ffs.

I disagree completely. It was one of the best episodes of the season.

River lying and being in jail makes perfect sense. She's doing it so people think she really killed the Doctor. This gives the the Doctor the opportunity to investigate the Silence covertly because they think he's dead.

 

[Trokil]

River lying and being in jail makes perfect sense. She's doing it so people think she really killed the Doctor. This gives the the Doctor the opportunity to investigate the Silence covertly because they think he's dead.

Spoiler

Of course she's married to him.

 

[Gregorn]

Didn't Moffat say this episode was going to be a huge 'game changer'? So...errr...what's changed?

 

[BGBW]

Doctor Who meets Japan Time.

 

[Clegg]

Didn't Moffat say this episode was going to be a huge 'game changer'? So...errr...what's changed?

Everyone in the Universe thinks the Doctor is dead?

 

[Quick]

Didn't Moffat say this episode was going to be a huge 'game changer'? So...errr...what's changed?

The Game.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

Didn't Moffat say this episode was going to be a huge 'game changer'? So...errr...what's changed?

The entire universe thinks that The Doctor is

Spoiler

dead.

Spoiler

The only ones that know the truth are a disembodied head in a box, Amy, Rory, River and the Tesselecta crew.

The Daleks must be overjoyed that their "Devil" is no longer around to haunt them.

 

[The Elite]

He needed to fake his own death because he was getting to big. I like how it tied into a real assassination plot though.

Have the rules changed? I thought we didn't have to spoiler mark anything post UK release.

 

[King of the Potato People]

Also finale ranking

TBB > DD > TWORS > TPOTW > TEOTP2 > TLOTT > JE

This was harder, it’s really a case of picking which had the worst Deus ex machina and then narrowing it down, your mileage may vary, goddess Rose, white-Point star diamond that can save the timelords, the Dalek controls that can destroy their galactic empire and the inexplicable time lord metacrisis also from JE, and dear god don’t forget the archangel Doctor.

Honestly TWORS is heavenly compared to most of the finales.

 

[mrklaw]

slighting disappointing last episode, although at least it didn't try to tie all loose ends up. I was going with a flesh doctor, but added in the option of the tesseract when they met up and the captain asked if anything could be done. (although if they stand in for him, doesn't that mess up their time records? wibbly wobbly)

Most of the episode was weird alternate reality + the Doctor repeating its all inevitable.

So we still have the silence out there, and whatever that battle of the field of blah is, probably the downfall of the silence which is why they wanted to kill the doctor. I hope they don't drag that on too much, although the silence are good baddies to play with.

 

[Android18a]

I particularly liked the 'crushed' Dalek bit and the alien planet that was gritty and grim scifi where he met the Teselecta with the red guy behind the 'counter'. I'd love an ep that had the cyberpunk dark future city thing going on like that.

 

[The Elite]

The entire universe thinks that The Doctor is

Spoiler

dead.

Spoiler

The only ones that know the truth are a disembodied head in a box, Amy, Rory, River and the Tesselecta crew.

The Daleks must be overjoyed that their "Devil" is no longer around to haunt them.

This. It's a big game changer for the character. I'm sure we will get some interesting reactions from those who think the Doctor is dead next season.

Love the question but I hope we never get the answer. I'd rather they don't delve into that. I assume that is when River will learn the Doctor's real name though.

Moffat is most-definitely playing the "long game" as someone suggested. This is all building up to the 50th anniversary.

 

[maharg]

No, no rule change. Enough spoilering, people.

 

[Lazlo Woodbine]

I disagree completely. It was one of the best episodes of the season.

River lying and being in jail makes perfect sense. She's doing it so people think she really killed the Doctor. This gives the the Doctor the opportunity to investigate the Silence covertly because they think he's dead.

Yes I understand that but because of the way it's been scripted, it plays out like an RTD era deus ex machina.

How is the Teselecta able to fake a complete regeneration? More to the point, how does this resolve the fixed point issue beyond a TIMEY WIMEY senario. The requisites for it were annoyingly convoluted, the conclusion that Moffat presented was just flat out bad (not a ganger but still a dopple...ganger?).

River lying for the whole time was probably the most offensive thing. So the audience is supposed to believe that she's been poker facing everyone the entire time without any kind of hint to contrary.

Thats my problem with it, all these intricately woven storylines without a conclusion that does them justice. The episode itself was extremely entertaining but it was essentially just a 50 minuite romp in an alternate dimension before having a very lazy easy solution which didnt match the rest of the episode.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

[The Elite]

As much as I was expecting it to be a Ganger im so frustrated that it ended up being that robot thing. Thats as cheap as a ganger and technically the Dr still didnt die so why the hell did time fix itself?

.

It was always the tesse-thingamajig that was destroyed at the Lake. It was a fixed point and had to happen. So when River decided to re-write her own timeline it still fucked things up to the point that all of history was happening at a fixed point. The Doctor needed to restore that moment so he could go incognito and fix the timeline. Now everything is restored, he gets to live and River is making quite the sacrifice by keeping her mouth shut from that point forward and carrying out her prison sentence.

 

[APZonerunner]

I'm gonna withhold overall judgement on the episode itself until I've watched it again, but I will say this: I think overall this new structure this year was damaging. I know it's not going to happen next year - we're going to get some weird "4 episodes in 2012" structure like the Tennant specials, but I definitely want a 13-episode over 13-weeks structure again after that.

 

[The Elite]

How is the Teselecta able to fake a complete regeneration? More to the point, how does this resolve the fixed point issue beyond a TIMEY WIMEY senario. The requisites for it were annoyingly convoluted, the conclusion that Moffat presented was just flat out bad (not a ganger but still a dopple...ganger?).

.

The Doctor had the TARDIS hooked up to the Teselecta and thankfully he didn't have to fake a complete regeneration. Just the starting moments.

And like I said above, it resolved the fix point issue because the Teselecta was always what was "killed" at the lake. River re-writing that caused the universe to fuck up. Restoring that point allowed history to continue.

The Doctor was never meant to die there - just the machine.

 

[mrklaw]

several people mentioned they thought they might use a ganger doctor instead of the real one. Eddie Murphy in Dave is basically the same thing. The fact that the doctor is physically present, therefore meeting the 'rules' of a fixed point of time is silly. Why was it a fixed point anyway, other than for plot reasons?

 

[APZonerunner]

Gutted that they're using one of the awesome real life stories on the new Adventure Game. It's The Gunpowder Plot - that would've made for a great episode!

 

[Lazlo Woodbine]

Honestly TWORS is heavenly compared to most of the finales.

The thing is, we came to expect space bees, Rose supersizing on the time vortex and jesus Dr from RTD...

I think the reason people (myself included) might be dissapointed is that this is a Moffat episode with all the foundations for a well woven twist that never materialised.

@DoctorWho: I think I need to re-watch the episode because clearly there's still some stuff I didn't take in. TARDIS hooked up to the Teselecta? lol. Regardless, it's still a disappointing cop out.

 

[maharg]

several people mentioned they thought they might use a ganger doctor instead of the real one. Eddie Murphy in Dave is basically the same thing. The fact that the doctor is physically present, therefore meeting the 'rules' of a fixed point of time is silly. Why was it a fixed point anyway, other than for plot reasons?

Because the Doctor's death, apparent or real, has massive cascade effects on all of time and space? He's the frickin' Doctor. I don't think any requirement that the Doctor be *in* the tesseractor was stated, or even implied, but obviously no one would be able to fake his death like he can.

Also, a Ganger would have turned to gloop on being shot. Whatever technomojo the tesseracter has to make it pretend to partially regenerate (not sure why someone said a 'complete regeneration'. It just glowed a little), a ganger would not have had that.

And, finally, I'd like to point out that complaining that the story made *too much* sense (in that it showed us the answer well before it happened) is a really ridiculous complaint.

 

[The Elite]

several people mentioned they thought they might use a ganger doctor instead of the real one. Eddie Murphy in Dave is basically the same thing. The fact that the doctor is physically present, therefore meeting the 'rules' of a fixed point of time is silly. Why was it a fixed point anyway, other than for plot reasons?

Because of how it changes the universe. Even though the Doctor didn't really die, the fact that people think he is dead will have a huge effect on events post-death. He still technically "died" for the rest of the universe. That's a big deal and thus a fixed point.

Fixed points are moments in time that have a huge effect on everything that comes after.

BEATEN BY MAHARG!

 

[The Elite]

@DoctorWho: I think I need to re-watch the episode because clearly there's still some stuff I didn't take in. TARDIS hooked up to the Teselecta? lol. Regardless, it's still a disappointing cop out.

That's more of something I perceived to be honest. They didn't explicitly state that. It's probably the reason he was able to fake a partial regen.

 

[Lazlo Woodbine]

That's more of something I perceived to be honest. They didn't explicitly state that. It's probably the reason he was able to fake a partial regen.

Feels like the LOST finale all over again...

WHERE IS THE PAYOFF MOFFAT???

 

[infiniteloop]

Teselecta switch was a cop out.

Brig ;_;

 

[Clegg]

One thing that I saw mentioned on another forum which I think is interesting.

The Silence think that the Doctor is dead. He could walk up to Madame Kovarian and say hello and they wouldnt do anything to him because they'd think its a past version of him.

 

[infiniteloop]

Series 5 > 6 > 3 > 1 > 4 > 2

5>6>1>4>3>2>Specials

 

[The Technomancer]

Eh, that was alright. The first half of it was incoherent in a bad way, and the whole "history mashing together thing" was a bit cheap. Overall not one of the better finales, and if the question is "What is the Doctors name" I'm going to be pissed

Oh, and then when does River learn the Doctor's name?

 

[cory.]

Really wonderful finale.

 

[OMG Aero]

The previous footage ruined the twist by constantly showing the Teselecta and it was too convenient that it could mimic the complex, grand effects of a timelord regeneration.

So you're fine with a robot that can literally travel in time and transform to look like anyone in any clothes but a few particle effects are too convenient?

Moffat is definitely playing the long game. I think he has Elevens next regeneration in mind. What will happen at Tranzalor? What exactly is " The Fall of the Eleventh"?

I think you answered your own question there.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

I like how the silence even make fun of Rory for getting killed all the time.

 

[Clegg]

Eh, that was alright. The first half of it was incoherent in a bad way, and the whole "history mashing together thing" was a bit cheap. Overall not one of the better finales, and if the question is "What is the Doctors name" I'm going to be pissed

Oh, and then when does River learn the Doctor's name?

I dont think the "Doctor Who" we heard in the finale means what is the Doctors name.

It think the Question means "What is the Doctor, why is he the way he is"? I think it will be more philosophical rather than simply "whats his name"?

 

[cory.]

Amy was wearing her alt-timeline outfit in Day of the Moon.

 

[The Technomancer]

I dont think the "Doctor Who" we heard in the finale means what is the Doctors name.

It think the Question means "What is the Doctor, why is he the way he is"? I think it will be more philosophical rather than simply "whats his name"?

Right...but...in the old show its pretty well established who the Doctor is. He's a rebel time lord. We see lots of other time lords, and sure, the Doctor is the one we care about but there's nothing mystical or philosophical about his nature.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

The Doctor had the TARDIS hooked up to the Teselecta and thankfully he didn't have to fake a complete regeneration. Just the starting moments.

And like I said above, it resolved the fix point issue because the Teselecta was always what was "killed" at the lake. River re-writing that caused the universe to fuck up. Restoring that point allowed history to continue.

The Doctor was never meant to die there - just the machine.

And I really hate how this entire episode was just a lot of misdirection because clearly if they had not bothered with deviating from the real story so much the 5 minute actual conclusion to the season. (That the Dr that died was really just a double) wouldnt have filled up enough time. Seriously I suppose the journey was pretty awesome, but the conclusion was pretty lame.

 

[Clegg]

Right...but...in the old show its pretty well established who the Doctor is. He's a rebel time lord. We see lots of other time lords, and sure, the Doctor is the one we care about but there's nothing mystical or philosophical about his nature.

There will be when Moffats done with him.

 

[Ventilaator]

Well that sucked. Doctor's death is a fixed point in time that has to happen and if it doesn't happen then everything explodes. The dead Doctor wasn't a clone or anything, it was actually him, because a fixed point in time is serious business.


"Oh shit, how do I write myself out of this", thought Moffat, "How about I ignore everything I just wrote and have something that looks like the Doctor get shot instead?"

The fact that it was confirmed that the dead Doctor wasn't a clone made me hope for a mindbendy and satisfying conclusion. But no, it wasn't a clone, it was something that looked like him. What's the fucking difference.

I would honestly like this episode wat more if the conclusion would've been the Doctor still getting shot, and then the help that got promised to him would show up and magic-revive him. Anything other than a clone. Or you know, robot that looks like him. That's different.

Also, why did they get married other than to justify the episode name? Surely you can achieve getting someone to look into you eye without that?

 

[Thomper]

I'm gonna withhold overall judgement on the episode itself until I've watched it again, but I will say this: I think overall this new structure this year was damaging. I know it's not going to happen next year - we're going to get some weird "4 episodes in 2012" structure like the Tennant specials, but I definitely want a 13-episode over 13-weeks structure again after that.

No, no, no. There won't be 'specials' next year. It'll be another 13 episodes with a Christmas special, but starting in the Autumn this time. It might be that they'll do all 13 episodes right after each other, it might be that they do 7 episodes/Christmas special/6 episodes. But there's definitely a full set of episodes next year. No worries.

 

[maharg]

Right...but...in the old show its pretty well established who the Doctor is. He's a rebel time lord. We see lots of other time lords, and sure, the Doctor is the one we care about but there's nothing mystical or philosophical about his nature.

Er, no, there's definitely mystery surrounding the Doctor's nature in the old show. As someone pointed out, they were actually in the process of doing a big "who is the doctor?!?!?" plot when it got cancelled. I think he was going to be one of the founding members of time lord society in that plot.

He's quite different from other time lords in a lot of ways.

I would honestly applaud this episode if the conclusion would've been the Doctor still getting shot, and then the help that got promised to him would show up and magic-revive him. Anything other than a clone. Or you know, robot that looks like him. That's different.

I like how you would have preferred a literal deus ex machinas ending that directly violated the principle of fixed points in time to one that makes sense. Russel? Is that you?

 

[Ventilaator]

I like how you would have preferred a literal deus ex machinas ending that directly violated the principle of fixed points in time to one that makes sense. Russel? Is that you?

I'm not saying that would be a good conclusion, I just wanted anything other than a clone. Literally anything.

 

[maharg]

Why? Seriously, I never thought I'd see the day when people would complain about a season closer making too much sense.

 

[JonathanEx]

Why? Seriously, I never thought I'd see the day when people would complain about a season closer making too much sense.

I'm tempted to do a podcast reading out reactions from Gallifrey Base in a over dramatic voice.

gallifreyan man:
absolute poo!! messy plot cheap way of getting out the situations, urgh! stick to watching paint dry!.
2/10 very poor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[King of the Potato People]

So you're fine with a robot that can literally travel in time and transform to look like anyone in any clothes but a few particle effects are too convenient?

Basically yes. It was already established that it could mimic people’s bodies, clothes and voice or travel through time, this was made clear at the beginning of the fall season so fair enough. It was too far in the eleventh hour* to reveal it could duplicate more complex things like regeneration energy pouring from his head, arms and wrists.

*No pun intended.

I get the impression River’s story is over now so the haters should be satisfied, although I’d really want to know who the hell Jim the fish is. Sweet Nicholas Courtney/Brigadier too. I'm looking forward to the Doctor fall, especially as anticipated if it interlocks with the 50th anniversary, although it should be better than his 'fall' in AGMGTW even with all River's hype. "He'll fall so much further", "This is the Doctor's darkest hour".

 

[Clegg]

Just so I make sure that I've understood the gist of the plot for TWORS:

So the Silence wanted to create a fixed point in time where the Doctor dies and they did just that. Except the Doctor that was shot in The Impossible Astronaut was the Tesselector and was always the Tesselector. Time was screwed up by the Ponds trying to save him

They created their fixed point. But the Doctors still alive and now he'll be looking for answers, who blew up the Tardis and why etc etc.

"Silence will fall when the question is asked"? Does this mean that The Silence will be defeated when the Doctor answers the Question?

If thats the case then it must be some bloody answer.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Why? Seriously, I never thought I'd see the day when people would complain about a season closer making too much sense.

If you are really saying that's why people are complaining I think its clear you have missed the point.

The problem is its a cop out. There was a huge build up for a very simply 5 minute solution which was pretty damn predictable. It would be like hyping up the fact that the 1+1 = something very mysterious and then after spending an hour doing a maths equation turning around and saying "oh yeah btw 1+1=2 but the weird maths equation I just spent an hour doing may or may not be something worth looking into a year from now" Pretty weird analogy but meh.

Moffat literally planted the seed's to extremely interesting plot points and then gave the most flat uninteresting conclusion possible.

 

[bengraven]

So fucking hyped for this and you guys aren't helping.

So is Moffat being a genius confirmed?

 

[StealthGoblin]

The one question I wanted answered, didn't get an answer.

Fucks sake.

 

[Clegg]

The one question I wanted answered, didn't get an answer.

Fucks sake.

Was your question "The Question"?

 

[bobs...onGaf]

So fucking hyped for this and you guys aren't helping.

So is Moffat being a genius confirmed?

Not really, the conclusion to the season lasts all of 5 minutes. The meat of the episode is almost a set up for the next major plot for next season.

Not going to lie the meat of the episode is fantastic, but its not really going to satisfy your thirst for a conclusion if you want to see something genius. Theres no out of the box thinking in terms of what happens about the dr's death.

 

[Captain_Spanky]

That was great. I wasn't happy with the overall plot this year, especially with the mid-season Melody Pond reveal. It all felt too obvious.

This episode easily matched The Big Bang from last year though. Absolutly breathless and giddy in its inventiveness, a total feast of ideas and concepts confidently pulled off in my opinion. Loved the hints of things to come (was I wrong or did it seem we might be going somewhere with Rory dying over and over too?). And that final line made me laugh giddily. It's so obvious in retrospect, but damn the swagger with which they said it.