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[The Technomancer]

Yeah, the more I reflect the more I wasn't really impressed by this. It felt...messy overall, like they tried to cram in too much stuff.

"Oh hey, time is mixed up! Oh hey, Amy remembers for some reason though! Oh hey, there's an agency devoted to fixing time! Oh hey, those eyepatches you put on four minutes ago? They were a trap! Oh hey, shit is happening with the Silence! Oh hey, they're getting married, and now the Doctor is dead! Except it was really the robot dude! Yay!"

For all of my criticism of series' 5 and 6, Big Bang was a really really good finale. This one...less so. But I'm excited for what it sets up for S7

Also I really disagree with the person who said that Tennant was an action hero. That was more Eccleston for me. Tennant and Smith feel like they were playing two sides of the same personality, but Tennant's was a bit wiser and more prudent, and Smith is trying very hard to be "quirky" and "genius"

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Felt genuinely sad when the Doctor called

Spoiler

the Brigadier, only to find out he died peacefully

.

Who was that guy?

 

[Arment]

I'm confused about River and the Doctor's timeline stuff. I really hope that gets explained more.

The first time the Doctor meets her is the last time she meets him. And they are supposed to be going in opposite directions. But it seems to me there are a bunch of exceptions to that. Going by that, the last time the Doctor meets her should be the very first time she meets him. So that means in Lets Kill Hitler that isn't the first time she's met him? A bit confused there.

 

[isny]

I'm confused about River and the Doctor's timeline stuff. I really hope that gets explained more.

The first time the Doctor meets her is the last time she meets him. And they are supposed to be going in opposite directions. But it seems to me there are a bunch of exceptions to that. Going by that, the last time the Doctor meets her should be the very first time she meets him. So that means in Lets Kill Hitler that isn't the first time she's met him? A bit confused there.

Confidential tries to piece it together.

 

[Zabka]

Loved it. That is all.

For now.

 

[survivor]

The idea of using a duplicate was alright by me, I just didn't like how they used this robot for it. I was hoping maybe for a more special type of duplicate/clone.

Other than that, the entire episode was pretty enjoyable. Loved how they hyped the question as being something so obvious.

Anyway I need to read up about the whole Tardis blowing up. People keep mentioning it here, but I have no idea why it's so important.

 

[Arment]

The idea of using a duplicate was alright by me, I just didn't like how they used this robot for it. I was hoping maybe for a more special type of duplicate/clone.

Other than that, the entire episode was pretty enjoyable. Loved how they hyped the question as being something so obvious.

Anyway I need to read up about the whole Tardis blowing up. People keep mentioning it here, but I have no idea why it's so important.

The Tardis blowing up causes the cracks in time. And it was caused by The Silence seemingly. But how is the question. Why is probably to kill The Doctor.

 

[survivor]

The Tardis blowing up causes the cracks in time. And it was caused by The Silence seemingly. But how is the question. Why is probably to kill The Doctor.

Was this mentioned in S6? The whole Silence causing the explosion.

 

[Arment]

Was this mentioned in S6? The whole Silence causing the explosion.

Before it exploded he kept getting transmissions saying "Silence will fall!" I'm not sure if it's explicitly stated or not, but I think we're supposed to assume they caused it.

 

[SpeedingUptoStop]

Yea, the whole "why" of S5's finale is still out there hanging, but it seems like they're saving it for the big super reveal.

Wonder how Moffat is gonna undo reality by the end of next season. Alternate reality all together, perhaps?

 

[RetroMG]

Just finished watching it. Was supposed to wait for the wife, so I'll have to act all surprised when we watch it again.

Loved it, but I've loved just about everything about Doctor Who, except possibly Gollum/Tinkerbell Doctor. Even when it's not brilliant, (I kind of rolled my eyes at the solution to the Doctor's death,) it's genuinely fun. And I really especially liked the last two minutes of the episode, leading to the hero shot of Matt Smith in front of the TARDIS.

 

[Goldrush]

When you boil it down to its simplest form, Series 6 was basically River Song's story. All the questions surrounding River were explained. And I think that's partly why this season wasn't as great overall as series 5, because in series 5 when River showed up, she was a mysterious side character helping the Doctor instead of the focus of the story. Every season-arc-focused episode this series featured River and finding something out about River, basically. And it was awkward because Amy/Rory kind of ended up taking a backseat in all those episodes because the focus was the Doctor/River relationship. Would it have been better if Moffat had made River a companion for a series and explained it all then? Maybe, but we'll never know now. Instead, he chose to answer the questions about River across series 6, in addition to intertwining it with stuff about the Doctor's death and "Silence will fall." He quite possibly tried to fit too much into one season, and maybe he'll learn to scale it back a bit for next season.

Now that the "mystery" behind River is done with, I'm hoping Moffat next series will return her to an intriguing side character that maybe shows up once or twice, but isn't the focus. She's a much better character that way.

River Song is the only story thread in NewWho that I was actually interested in. I tend to enjoy the standalone stories more and was annoyed when they make random references to the story arc or dedicate the last few seconds of an episode to the Doctor looking at his screen, showing a crack, or a cliffhanger completely unrelated to the episode's storyline.

I do agree that there are no more mysteries to River. There are events we didn't see, yet, but nothing that we couldn't easily guess. I do hope that we'll see her later as a random companion rather than an enigmatic character.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

So crazy. Love these actors. I hope we are done with Amy/Rory though. I would love a new character for Smith to bounce off on. Moffat, you so crazy, dog. I wish i had a mind that could write something like this.

Also, the fall of the eleventh?

 

[karobit]

Given the question and the Doctor's reaction at the end of the episode, I wonder if they're setting up some sort of Man in the High Castle scenario for the next season (or more precisely Aetheric Mechanics).

 

[xandaca]

I agree with some of the criticisms in that blog but a lot of it seems to be a great big whinge at Moffat.

Questions about the Doctors survival in the finale have been answered but theres still people complaining about the lack of answers.

Well, though I stated in the review that I have enjoyed much of Moffat's work in the past, the failings of that episode have to be put squarely at his door. He set up so much stuff in such an insanely convoluted way, then copped out of almost everything at the last minute. He may well go back and revisit certain bits - I'm really hoping that the Tesselecta 'regenerating' is one of them, as that would be an almost unforgivably bad oversight if not - but that doesn't excuse the fact that as the episode stands, it made for an unsatisfying and borderline incoherent finale, unpredictable only for the fact that its every surprise was based on either dishonest deception or cheap get-out clauses. Plus there's the Doctor pointlessly marrying River, despite there being almost zero signs of real intimacy or affection between them since meeting in the Library.

 

[Ventilaator]

I've been sitting here and wondering. If the Doctor was so sure that he needs to die, and later so angry at River for stopping it because it was a fixed point and messing with fixed points is something you don't do, why did using the robot seem like a good idea to him?

"I need to die and this has to happen and there's no way out of me getting killed. Okay robot, go die for me"

Nobody told him that HIS death isn't a fixed point, so how did he randomly guess that?

 

[DKehoe]

Who was that guy?

Reoccuring character from the old version of the show.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Ha, that was pretty wicked. I liked this episode.

Liked the end bit there a lot.

 

[APZonerunner]

I just wanted to say - thought about this a bit last night, and I really don't have the problems with this story most had. I thought the actual story was fine, but my problems lie in a different area.

See, RTD's finales - and episodes in general - often descended into a deus ex machina being used, the famous god-doctor, The End of Time's ridiculously simplistic solution etc, but the thing about them is that, as I said a few pages ago, the character work that goes on around these sometimes questionable plots is always excellent.

When someone posted a picture of the God-Doctor from series 3 as an example of what they don't want as a retort to someone who didn't like this finale a few pages ago, I said:

You know, while the visual manifestation of this ending was absolutely shit and terrible, the underlying core things of what happened between characters - Martha's growth, the 'enduring faith' of humanity, Lucy Saxon's betrayal, and The Doctor's inability to do anything but forgive The Master (and how he's a blubbering mess when his plans go awry) are actually really clever.

Classic RTD though, really. Great character work, lacking execution on the actual story.

An RTD/Moffat team would be just about unstoppable. Or even a team where Moffat wrote the actual story and RTD wrote the character stuff. Lordy. One can dream.

And that's really what I feel was lacking to this episode. The story was suitably Doctor Who and clever and sci-fi and fantasy all at once, but I didn't really learn anything new about River or Amy as characters.

The two greatest scenes in the show, for me, was the one where the Doctor is refusing to go to his death before finding out about the Brig - there were real echoes of Tennant's final, overconfident, "I am a god" moments there - and the scene where Amy realizes who Rory is. Other than that, I came out of this none the wiser about these characters than I already was - I just found out how things happened, but nothing really new.

It's kind of the same thing about how my favourite bit of Pandorica/Big Bang was the 7 or 8 minutes between The Doctor's speech to Amy before he leaves and all the stuff where time is rewinding. That was real masterful character work and wonderful acting from Matt, and truly made the story.

Likewise, Tennant's Doctor's chat with Wilf aboard the ship about being ready to die and The Doctor's massive temper tantrum when he realizes he just has to die for this man made The End of Time, which was rough in so many other areas, brilliant to me.

That's what was missing from this finale, episode and even most of this series for me - my favourite episodes, no surprise, are the ones that has the most profound effect on The Doctor long-term, The Doctor's Wife, The God Complex and to a lesser extent Closing Time.

 

[mrklaw]

Because the Doctor's death, apparent or real, has massive cascade effects on all of time and space? He's the frickin' Doctor. I don't think any requirement that the Doctor be *in* the tesseractor was stated, or even implied, but obviously no one would be able to fake his death like he can.

Also, a Ganger would have turned to gloop on being shot. Whatever technomojo the tesseracter has to make it pretend to partially regenerate (not sure why someone said a 'complete regeneration'. It just glowed a little), a ganger would not have had that.

And, finally, I'd like to point out that complaining that the story made *too much* sense (in that it showed us the answer well before it happened) is a really ridiculous complaint.

the cascade is irrelevant. The Silence wanted him dead to avoid the thing on the fields of blargh where the 11th will fall etc (11th doctor regen?). This simply 'hides' the doctor. if he isn't actually dead, then he'll still be there on that field presumably.

Or does that all get hidden due to it being a non-fixed point in time? e.g. the silence will think he isn't a threat until that moment and then its too late? Tesseract still showed the doctor as dead in the time records. I get from a dramatic point of view how its cool the doctor is 'dead' and he can investigate etc. But from a wibbly-wobbly point of view its disappointing.

 

[mrklaw]

That's what concerns me. There were only so many ways the Doctor was going to get out of this alive. He couldn't ACTUALLY be dead at the end of this. I'd rather have what we got than some random Jesus ressurrection. At least this fits in the continuity of what we saw this season. It makes sense.

I was worried it was heading that way when they had all the 'those aren't sunspots, thats millions of people answering 'we'll help''. Uh-oh, faith resurrection incoming!? Whew no, just a robot doctor.

 

[Htown]

So I loved this episode.

The resolution to Doctor's death was handled pretty awesome.

I also LOVE the setup for future stuff. The Doctor kind of has to keep under the radar now, instead of walking up to his enemies and going I'M THE DOCTOR STEP OFF BITCH, like he's been able to for the last few years. Also, I'm pretty sure Amy and Rory are done as companions. At least for a while. We're going to get The Adventures of River and the Doctor for a while, I think. Which is a good thing now that we dont' have to tiptoe around who River is and obsess about what the Doctor knows or doesn't know or what the audience knows or doesn't know. We can just see them have cool adventures.

 

[DieH@rd]

In this episode we also saw the seed for 50th anniversary episode. Distress beacon has been sent and the help is coming to the fields of Transilor, where Eleventh will fall and the first question will be asked.


GODS DAMNIT WHO CAN WAIT TILL S7 STARTS

T_T

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I've been sitting here and wondering. If the Doctor was so sure that he needs to die, and later so angry at River for stopping it because it was a fixed point and messing with fixed points is something you don't do, why did using the robot seem like a good idea to him?

"I need to die and this has to happen and there's no way out of me getting killed. Okay robot, go die for me"

Nobody told him that HIS death isn't a fixed point, so how did he randomly guess that?

He had a plan to twist his way out of things, but since the whole purpose of it was to become secretive he didn't want to go around telling everyone "Don't worry, I'm not really going to die.", but instead made a point of having a farewell tour.

We don't know exactly how much the Doctor knew about what was going down at Utah--we know he knew the time and place, and bits of information from his friends. But he constructed an escape plan that would make those known events equally appear to pass. He escapes, while the events remain fixed as far as he knows them to be.

That part I really like. Using time travel is much harder if you're not supposed to be able to change anything, so it requires pulling tricks so events don't seem to have changed from the observers' point of view. Chrono Trigger pulled a similar thing in one instance. By replacing Crono with a doll immediately before his time of death they saved him, while still allowing their past selves to apparently witness the death and want to go off and save him.

 

[DieH@rd]

I've been sitting here and wondering. If the Doctor was so sure that he needs to die, and later so angry at River for stopping it because it was a fixed point and messing with fixed points is something you don't do, why did using the robot seem like a good idea to him?

"I need to die and this has to happen and there's no way out of me getting killed. Okay robot, go die for me"

Nobody told him that HIS death isn't a fixed point, so how did he randomly guess that?

Fixed point in time means that

Spoiler

he HAD TO BE ON THAT BEACH and DIE. Robot died instead of him, but the doctor himself was INSIDE the robot and was present during the entire event.

 

[Sneds]

Fixed point in time means that

Spoiler

he HAD TO BE ON THAT BEACH and DIE. Robot died instead of him, but the doctor himself was INSIDE the robot and was present during the entire event.

Plus, everyone thinks he was killed. Maybe that's what the fixed point was, not the actual event itself. I think that so long as he faked his death in a convincing way everyone was okay.

 

[Subliminal]

I'm thinking S7 will be Matt Smith's last..

 

[Ark]

I'm thinking S7 will be Matt Smith's last..

Quite possibly, I just hope his replacement is decent.

 

[Clegg]

Benedict Cumberbatch as a future regeneration please.

I do hope Smith stays for a few more Series but I think he'll leave in 2013.

He should be the Doctor for the 50th year celebration and then regenerate at the end of the series.

 

[jufonuk]

I'm thinking S7 will be Matt Smith's last..

This saddens me as I have grown fond of him, I think the previous Doctors Who's I kinda dipped in and out of my younger brother liked them , but this Doctor I was there from regen and I like his energy/humour/darkness also like the fact that he is the oldest incarnation of the Doctor yet his youngest in Appearence.

Benedict Cumberbatch please.

Could be one to something..

 

[DieH@rd]

Quite possibly, I just hope his replacement is decent.

I want someone older. Patrick Stewart would be my 1st choice.

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

If River Song knows the Doctor's name, then that kinda makes the last question a bit anti climactic. Now if we go back and it shows a similar scene where river has the 10th looking into her eye and

Spoiler

showing a miniature River inside a robit

, then that would be masterful. Then it could be said that the idea for how the Doctor escapes death could have been given at that early season. I know it's not going to happen,

Spoiler

except in my fan fic

.

 

[bengraven]

I am pretty disappointed they couldn't figure out a way to do it where the Doctor actually died. I thought the Tesselecta was cute and ridiculous but still a copout.

Could be one to something..

Benedict will never do it. There's an interview with him where he basically says that while it would be an honor to play the part, Doctor Who is so huge that he would have to BE Who for the rest of his life and deal with that kind of pressure.

(interestingly enough, both of Benedict's parents have been on the classic Doctor Who).


Edit: here's where he says he won't do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGd-cuoIR0A

 

[Blader]

I mostly liked it, some things irked me a bit and the Tesselecta twist was telegraphed the second it showed up in the recap.

There does seem to be a pretty big plot hole now, though. In S5, the Silents/Silence blow up the TARDIS (somehow?) to destroy the universe. But here, their goal was to kill the Doctor in order to prevent the universe from being destroyed. So I'm not really sure how these two finales don't completely contradict each other.

Also, Moffat really needs to learn to slow the fuck down and let his stories breathe. All of his episodes this year have been completely stuffed with crazy ideas, which is fun, but also makes them feel extremely packed and rushed.

Overall, I liked S6 but 5 is still the peak of Who for me.

 

[bengraven]

I mostly liked it, some things irked me a bit and the Tesseract twist was telegraphed the second it showed up in the recap.

There does seem to be a pretty big plot hole now, though. In S5, the Silents/Silence blow up the TARDIS (somehow?) to destroy the universe. But here, their goal was to kill the Doctor in order to prevent the universe from being destroyed. So I'm not really sure how these two finales don't completely contradict each other.

Also, Moffat really needs to learn to slow the fuck down and let his stories breathe. All of his episodes this year have been completely stuffed with crazy ideas, which is fun, but also makes them feel extremely packed and rushed.

Overall, I liked S6 but 5 is still the peak of Who for me.

There's not enough time. 45 minutes isn't enough time. I think Moffat is under a lot of pressure to hurry hurry hurry. He wants to tell slow, atmospheric masterpieces and he gets to for about 40 of those minutes, until he's forced to suddenly slap the canon into it and you get 5 minutes of River and Amy drinking and giggling, then a flashback.

 

[Locke_211]

I think this episode almost guarantees Matt Smith will be the Doctor for two more years and bow out in 2013's anniversary special. The anniversary itself, the 23rd November, will be on a Saturday!

And the fact that 'the fall of the eleventh' will occur when the Doctor is asked who is in, in a point when he can't be silent or say an untruth - surely that's 50th anniversary foreshadowing, an episode where he is forced to reveal who he is, in a manner that leads to him regenerating - that totally gets to the core of the show since 1963. They wouldn't be able to top it for importance or significance to the mythos of the show if that was next year's finale.

 

[bengraven]

I wish the new Doctors weren't under so much pressure to leave after a few years. It's not a public office (not really), why not take your time? The regeneration was supposed to be an angle to bring in a new actor after said actor was done and ready to leave...it's not a countdown.

 

[Clegg]

Benedict will never do it. There's an interview with him where he basically says that while it would be an honor to play the part, Doctor Who is so huge that he would have to BE Who for the rest of his life and deal with that kind of pressure.

(interestingly enough, both of Benedict's parents have been on the classic Doctor Who).


Edit: here's where he says he won't do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGd-cuoIR0A

Well thats quite disappointing.

 

[bengraven]

Sorry.

But if you listen to them, you realize just how close he is to the character and history. He's good friends with Moffat, Tennant and Matt Smith, his parents were on the show, he works with the same production company. He's there, just not there. It's just too big for him.

 

[Ventilaator]

I wish the new Doctors weren't under so much pressure to leave after a few years. It's not a public office (not really), why not take your time? The regeneration was supposed to be an angle to bring in a new actor after said actor was done and ready to leave...it's not a countdown.

Seriously. I would love it if actors got immediately hit with a ten year contract to play the Doctor, with the option there to be kicked off earlier if public opinion/ratings suffer. That's a really stupid idea that won't happen, but I personally wouldn't have a problem with that arrangement.

Regeneration needs to be there to keep the show going forever, not to have a ton of different actors add it to their credits.

 

[Blader]

Wasn't Smith's contract supposed to be for 5 years?

 

[Clegg]

Sorry.

But if you listen to them, you realize just how close he is to the character and history. He's good friends with Moffat, Tennant and Matt Smith, his parents were on the show, he works with the same production company. He's there, just not there. It's just too big for him.

I listened to it and I completely understand why he doesnt want the part.

I still think he'd brilliant in the role though.

I actually hope we get someone relatively unknown to play the Doctor like Matt Smith was when he got the part.

 

[Exterminieren]

I mostly liked it, some things irked me a bit and the Tesselecta twist was telegraphed the second it showed up in the recap.

There does seem to be a pretty big plot hole now, though. In S5, the Silents/Silence blow up the TARDIS (somehow?) to destroy the universe. But here, their goal was to kill the Doctor in order to prevent the universe from being destroyed. So I'm not really sure how these two finales don't completely contradict each other.

This theory isn't really backed up by what is on screen, but it seems to fit. Basically, the Silence's whole plot focuses on River being conceived on the TARDIS and being trained to kill the Doctor after. However, Rory is killed by the Silurians. No Rory, no River, no weapon. As a result, the Silence decide to blow up the TARDIS, causing the cracks, and arrange for one to go on Amy's wall. As a result, when the universe was reset, as the Silence were banking on, Amy remembers Rory, and summons up a universe with him in it again, just in time for the wedding and awkward TARDIS bunkbed sex.

 

[Hot Coldman]

It's about time we had the Master show up again, that's what I want from next series beyond getting more answers. Keep John Simm please, he was good when RTD wasn't writing bollocks scripts for the character.

 

[bengraven]

Seriously. I would love it if actors got immediately hit with a ten year contract to play the Doctor, with the option there to be kicked off earlier if public opinion/ratings suffer. That's a really stupid idea that won't happen, but I personally wouldn't have a problem with that arrangement.

Regeneration needs to be there to keep the show going forever, not to have a ton of different actors add it to their credits.

Not to be THAT guy, but it's obvious people's attention spans are so short that they can't wait for the next thing, so as soon as someone gets the job they're looking for the next Doctor.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I think this episode almost guarantees Matt Smith will be the Doctor for two more years and bow out in 2013's anniversary special. The anniversary itself, the 23rd November, will be on a Saturday!

If ever there was a way for them to give his successor a tougher beginning than "replace David Tennant", it would be "start brilliantly on a 50th anniversary show".

 

[The Technomancer]

If ever there was a way for them to give his successor a tougher beginning than "replace David Tennant", it would be "start brilliantly on a 50th anniversary show".

I do hope we get someone a bit older when Smith is done. I'd like to return to a Doctor who's maybe in his mid-fifties or something.

 

[tuffy]

When Beheaded Blue Guy talks about "the fall of 11 on the field of whatever", we're meant to think it's referring to the end of the 11th Doctor and his regeneration. But I think it's a reference to River Song's cryptic statement that he'll "rise higher than he's ever been, then fall so much farther". Less of the Doctor falling in battle, and more of him falling from grace. That, in turn, would lead to a redemption (and maybe regeneration) story later on.

 

[bengraven]

I do hope we get someone a bit older when Smith is done. I'd like to return to a Doctor who's maybe in his mid-fifties or something.

I agree, especially if River keeps showing up. Because the age difference between her and Matt is kind of weird. I thought the whole "Doctor and River in love" moments were going to be when she was in her 20s, not the age she is now.

 

[Clegg]

Smith has been brilliant in the role so I imagine that he will still be the Doctor for the 50th Anniverasry Series.

It doesnt make sense to have a new actor debut as the Doctor at the start of the biggest series of the show ever.

I think 11 will go at the end of that series then we'll get the new Doctor.

Of course I could be completely wrong.....