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[King of the Potato People]

I’m a fan of Moffat’s vision for Who, a train rides into a colossal pyramid known as Area 52, so awesome but even I can’t defend the dissonance in the timeline. How did Melody get from regenerating in New York to Leadworth? “I know where your daughter is” Where the hell did the Doctor go to at the end of AGMGTW? God knows. I would have liked to see how Amy and Rory initially reacted to the revelation that River was their daughter, but Moffat is like “no, boring human drama here…I’ll skip ahead for the cars and gun”

What would be really appreciated is a significantly slower pace in the next series, but not going to count on it, as well as more effective drama well more than Amy and Rory quickly getting over Melody after LKH. The Human Nature two partner, now that was how to write believable humans characters and emotions with a sci-fi/fantasy theme. Paul Cornell could teach SM a thing or two.

 

[Raydeen]

This review posted/written by another gaffer sums it up perfectly for me:

http://xandermarkham.blogspot.com/2011/10/in-another-reality-doctor-who-review.html

I hate how people in this thread are basically turning it into a RTD vs Moffat who is worse war. If thats the discussion you guys are having then what hope does Dr Who have. It doesnt matter that RTD was bad. Moffat is the current showrunner and he is writing some pretty weak stuff. I dont care if RTD was worse, he probably was... so what its Moffat who will continue to fluff up the show.

I feel like people are simply arguing the episodes flaws away by discussing flaws from RTD's era. By that logic the next writer could be bad but as long as he isnt making the mistakes Moffat made its going to be ok for people here?

Agreed. This finale was a bit of massive train wreck. Even Smith looks underwhelmed at times.

 

[The Technomancer]

When Beheaded Blue Guy talks about "the fall of 11 on the field of whatever", we're meant to think it's referring to the end of the 11th Doctor and his regeneration. But I think it's a reference to River Song's cryptic statement that he'll "rise higher than he's ever been, then fall so much farther". Less of the Doctor falling in battle, and more of him falling from grace. That, in turn, would lead to a redemption (and maybe regeneration) story later on.

I thought that was a reference to how he defused the battle at Demon's Run or whatever without a single shot, but still didn't save Melody Pond. Which leads into another problem I've had with the whole revival really: cryptic statements/first halves of finales meant to set up some really huge, epic, game-changing event (or at least a threat to the fabric of reality itself) that has to be resolved in the next episodes and...well...really don't resolve satisfactorily since at the end things continue much as they did before.

So credit to Moffat there, I have really enjoyed the actual changes in the Doctor Who universe this season, with an actual organization out there dedicated to his death, and hopefully with his lower key appearances in the next season. Hopefully we get some actual consequences this time.

 

[Hot Coldman]

So credit to Moffat there, I have really enjoyed the actual changes in the Doctor Who universe this season, with an actual organization out there dedicated to his death, and hopefully with his lower key appearances in the next season. Hopefully we get some actual consequences this time.

Yeah, this series has paid off for me just because we now have someone remotely threatening up against the Doctor again. The Daleks and the Master filled that role for years, but the former became scattered and daft, and the latter turned insane and became nowhere near as prominent, so now we have the Silence to actually challenge the Doctor again. The best bit is that they're not necessarily limited to a single race, which makes things more interesting- plus they have the brilliant trump card that are the Silents.

 

[Randy Lanzarote]

Even the silent are trolling Rory and his many brushes with death, and a few weeks ago we had that moment where the dr brought him up on referring to something in the past tense.

What is up with Rory? There had better be some payoff to his many deaths.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

Yay, great episode. Loved the "Question" thingie.

 

[BatDan]

I think we're all forgetting another important thing.
The Brigadier is dead. At least he went peacefully.

Yes I know the actor that played him died, but that still doesn't make the scene sad.

 

[SpeedingUptoStop]

When Beheaded Blue Guy talks about "the fall of 11 on the field of whatever", we're meant to think it's referring to the end of the 11th Doctor and his regeneration. But I think it's a reference to River Song's cryptic statement that he'll "rise higher than he's ever been, then fall so much farther". Less of the Doctor falling in battle, and more of him falling from grace. That, in turn, would lead to a redemption (and maybe regeneration) story later on.

I'd like to think that, but Moffat's most cringeworthy script moment in "AGMGTW" already telegraphed 100% that that moment had come to pass already.

 

[RetroMG]

If Cumberbatch won't be the Doctor, he'd make an amazing Master. Though I could see him not wanting to do it for the same reasons.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

I’m a fan of Moffat’s vision for Who, a train rides into a colossal pyramid known as Area 52, so awesome but even I can’t defend the dissonance in the timeline. How did Melody get from regenerating in New York to Leadworth? “I know where your daughter is” Where the hell did the Doctor go to at the end of AGMGTW? God knows. I would have liked to see how Amy and Rory initially reacted to the revelation that River was their daughter, but Moffat is like “no, boring human drama here…I’ll skip ahead for the cars and gun”

What would be really appreciated is a significantly slower pace in the next series, but not going to count on it, as well as more effective drama well more than Amy and Rory quickly getting over Melody after LKH. The Human Nature two partner, now that was how to write believable humans characters and emotions with a sci-fi/fantasy theme. Paul Cornell could teach SM a thing or two.

Agreed 100%. I love the show more than ever-but that's my biggest problem with it, and it does bother me.

 

[xandaca]

When Beheaded Blue Guy talks about "the fall of 11 on the field of whatever", we're meant to think it's referring to the end of the 11th Doctor and his regeneration. But I think it's a reference to River Song's cryptic statement that he'll "rise higher than he's ever been, then fall so much farther". Less of the Doctor falling in battle, and more of him falling from grace. That, in turn, would lead to a redemption (and maybe regeneration) story later on.

Agreed. 'Fall' is one of those buzzwords which can mean anything.

 

[KarmaCow]

So why did the Silence bother brainwashing/recapturing River if the suit was going to be in control at the final moment? Was it just to keep the Doctor there while the suit shoots him?

 

[DrForester]

I still want a David Thewlis Doctor.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

HOLY MOLY!!!!

How awesome was that, you guys?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[APZonerunner]

When Beheaded Blue Guy talks about "the fall of 11 on the field of whatever", we're meant to think it's referring to the end of the 11th Doctor and his regeneration. But I think it's a reference to River Song's cryptic statement that he'll "rise higher than he's ever been, then fall so much farther". Less of the Doctor falling in battle, and more of him falling from grace. That, in turn, would lead to a redemption (and maybe regeneration) story later on.

My first thought at this little statement from him was "He's going to die of a fall." It'd be a very Moffat thing indeed to have that statement be super literal, and of course others Doctors met their end through nasty, massive falls.

 

[Hela]

I don't know about this episode.
I wish the writers would understand that there is zero tension in a story like this. Everyone fucking knows the doctor won't die. It's not sad, it's not anything. The journey wasn't bad, but ultimately pointless.
And what an asshole the doctor is making Amy and Rory think he's dead. Why?

 

[Suairyu]

ALSO

If Doctor at Lake Silencio is a fixed point in time (that they planned for and apparently created) why were previous attempts made on his life by the Silent?

 

[GSR]

I enjoyed it quite a lot, but when you stop and think about it there's so much that just doesn't mesh together right, both from this season and the last.

Honestly I'd hoped this season would tie up most of the plots from last year and this year, but it's pretty clear Moffat wants to carry this plot along through the anniversary.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I don't know about this episode.
I wish the writers would understand that there is zero tension in a story like this. Everyone fucking knows the doctor won't die. It's not sad, it's not anything. The journey wasn't bad, but ultimately pointless.
And what an asshole the doctor is making Amy and Rory think he's dead. Why?

Maybe not for the Doctor to die, but certainly for time itself.

Also, time being what it is, it certainly could have been the end for the Doctor but have the series focus on aliviey times.

 

[Sneds]

Even the silent are trolling Rory and his many brushes with death, and a few weeks ago we had that moment where the dr brought him up on referring to something in the past tense.

What is up with Rory? There had better be some payoff to his many deaths.

Yeah, I think that you're right.

 

[dalin80]

What is up with Rory? There had better be some payoff to his many deaths.

The universe cant tolerate a imbalance so needed something to be the balance to captain jack.

jack is immortal- rory dies constantly
jack is a gay bed jumper- rory, married man
jack is a popular character, rory is not.

 

[GSR]

Forgot to mention, though, the scene about the Brigadier's death was heartwrenching. I'd just watched some old DW serials with him in it a few weeks before.

 

[Quick]

The universe cant tolerate a imbalance so needed something to be the balance to captain jack.

jack is immortal- rory dies constantly
jack is a gay bed jumper- rory, married man
jack is a popular character, rory is not.

Are we talking within the show's story? If so, perhaps. But in terms of fans, Rory's a pretty popular character already.

 

[gabbo]

Forgot to mention, though, the scene about the Brigadier's death was heartwrenching. I'd just watched some old DW serials with him in it a few weeks before.

Which Doctor's run did this Brigadier show up in the most? I've only just started going back to watch OldWho and haven''t gotten past Hartnell yet

 

[BatDan]

The universe cant tolerate a imbalance so needed something to be the balance to captain jack.

jack is immortal- rory dies constantly
jack is a gay bed jumper- rory, married man
jack is a popular character, rory is not.

*rorywilliamsfacts.gif*

Which Doctor's run did this Brigadier show up in the most? I've only just started going back to watch OldWho and haven''t gotten past Hartnell yet

He first shows up in the Second Doctor's run, but is most prominent in the Third Doctor's run. After that he shows up on occasion.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

The Brigadier was the man.

 

[The Elite]

Watching that recap of River's story on Confidential really puts things in perspective. The seeds planted regarding the Doctor's Name (Doctor Who?). 10th says there is only one time he would and could give up that secret. It wasn't the wedding, so when does he really spill the beans?

I think the storyline is turning out brilliantly myself. Thinking about it more and more, I really like how Series 6 turned out. The standalone episodes would have been better served if they were mixed into the mythology eps but everything makes sense in the end.

Good stuff.

 

[The Elite]

So why did the Silence bother brainwashing/recapturing River if the suit was going to be in control at the final moment? Was it just to keep the Doctor there while the suit shoots him?

I think River and the Doctor had to be there at that moment. River seems to have a track record of resisting the Silence influence so the suit was used to control her. But it had to be River there, and no one else. It's funny, both River and Doctor were in a suit.

Don't forget, River isn't the first companion who was under the influence of a higher power to kill the Doctor. This shit has happened before during the 5th Doctor's run. Maybe the Black Guardian is behind everything!

Turlough was actually a really good companion.

 

[JonathanEx]

I feel the need to repost this after that request for it as I love it so much.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think River and the Doctor had to be there at that moment. River seems to have a track record of resisting the Silence influence so the suit was used to control her. But it had to be River there, and no one else. It's funny, both River and Doctor were in a suit.

Why?

 

[gabbo]

The universe cant tolerate a imbalance so needed something to be the balance to captain jack.

The universe got its wish with Miracle Day. Rory has no need to die anymore

 

[ultron87]

The weird thing about this episode is that the Doctor didn't fool the Silence or some other enemy with this trick. He literally fooled Time itself. And that feels extremely off to me.

 

[WrenchNinja]

The weird thing about this episode is that the Doctor didn't fool the Silence or some other enemy with this trick. He literally fooled Time itself. And that feels extremely off to me.

When you put it that way, it sounds like the greatest trick anyone's ever pulled.

 

[The Elite]

The weird thing about this episode is that the Doctor didn't fool the Silence or some other enemy with this trick. He literally fooled Time itself. And that feels extremely off to me.

He didn't need to fool time. From what I gathered it was always The Doctor WITHIN the Teselecta (can't remember how to spell it) that had to be there. Not the Doctor himself. He fulfilled what was required for the Fixed Point. It was the Teselecta when we saw it back in The Impossible Astronaut and it was the same thing now. He always avoided his death.

 

[The Technomancer]

He didn't need to fool time. From what I gathered it was always The Doctor WITHIN the Teselecta (can't remember how to spell it) that had to be there. Not the Doctor himself. He fulfilled what was required for the Fixed Point. It was the Teselecta when we saw it back in The Impossible Astronaut and it was the same thing now. He always avoided his death.

But in the original scenario don't they "burn his body"?

 

[The Elite]

Why?

Wibbly Wobbly, Timey Wimey.

Actually, that is a good question. That's the way it happened so that's the way it had to happen. Screwed up, I know. But River being there versus someone else makes all the difference in the world from what I gather.

 

[Arment]

Why?

Fixed point in time I'm guessing. Their original plan was to have River kill The Doctor. But The Doctor fixed River's psychopathic tendencies in Lets Kill Hitler. So in order to make sure the fixed point happened they put her in the suit.

That's my take on it.

 

[The Elite]

But in the original scenario don't they "burn his body"?

PRECISELY!

He needed it done that way to hide the evidence of what he had actually done. While the teselecta burned, it floated away concealing the truth from Amy and Rory as well. River new all along and convinced Amy and Rory of the reasoning for the Viking Funeral. It makes complete sense when you realise that it was The Doctor in the Teselecta all along!

Edit: Actually, Rory recommends the boat.

Hmm..

 

[ultron87]

But in the original scenario don't they "burn his body"?

They still do that. He mentions that he didn't feel a thing from the fire or something along those lines in the final scene.

Didn't River scan him and confirm that it was his body? Though I guess she was in on it the whole time, so she could just be lying there.

 

[neojubei]

They still do that. He mentions that he didn't feel a thing from the fire or something along those lines in the final scene.

Didn't River scan him and confirm that it was his body? Though I guess she was in on it the whole time, so she could just be lying there.

Well we know River and the Doctor always lies

 

[JonathanEx]

They still do that. He mentions that he didn't feel a thing from the fire or something along those lines in the final scene.

Didn't River scan him and confirm that it was his body? Though I guess she was in on it the whole time, so she could just be lying there.

Correct on point one, and on point two, yeah - in her timeline she knows what'll happen, which is why she holds Amy back, and misses with shots.

 

[The Technomancer]

You know...thinking about it...I think I would have preferred it if he hadn't let River (and by extension Amy and Rory) know he was still alive. I think it would have been awesome if he truly dropped off the radar. And if one of them (especially River) ran into him in the future, they would be pissed.

Basically I'm thinking back to River's "this is cold, even for you" only...if it had actual weight.

 

[JonathanEx]

Considering River is set to meet future Doctors (probably), it'd be a bit hard to keep.

And there are some difficulties to pretending to being dead at one point for a show with time travel, but hey ho. Suppose it only needs to affect the bigger baddies (Silence, Daleks etc).

 

[Blader]

Well we know River and the Doctor always lies

I really wish Moffat would drop would this. Constantly retconning yourself is really really annoying, more so when it's happening within the same episode.

 

[The Technomancer]

I really wish Moffat would drop would this. Constantly retconning yourself is really really annoying, more so when it's happening within the same episode.

As my roomate put it: "yes, you can lie to the audience. Yes, that can make things surprising. That doesn't make it good writing!"

 

[DrForester]

So Amy and Rory were done here, or are they confirmed for next season?

 

[Blader]

So Amy and Rory were done here, or are they confirmed for next season?

Spoiler

They'll be back, but maybe not full-time.

 

[JonathanEx]

So Amy and Rory were done here, or are they confirmed for next season?

Confirmed to show up. Not confirmed in what status, currently thought to be recurring.

 

[PowderedToast]

the last 20 or so posts epitomize what i hated about this season, i'm disappointed that a discussion like that even has to take place. it's just bad writing.

 

[BatDan]

You know how every season reintroduced a villain/monster from the classic series? Season 1: Daleks, Season 2: Cybermen, Season 3: The Master, Season 4: Sontarans, Season 5: Silurians.
Did they forget to do that this year? The closest we seem to got was the Minotaur in The God Complex being a descendant of the Nimon.