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[Spirit of Jazz]

The weird thing about this episode is that the Doctor didn't fool the Silence or some other enemy with this trick. He literally fooled Time itself. And that feels extremely off to me.

He didn't fool time though, time stopped when River prevented the teselecta from being shot because the fixed point was the teselecta being shot. Time itself never said the doctor died, people did because they were duped into thinking such.

 

[GSR]

You know...thinking about it...I think I would have preferred it if he hadn't let River (and by extension Amy and Rory) know he was still alive. I think it would have been awesome if he truly dropped off the radar. And if one of them (especially River) ran into him in the future, they would be pissed.

I think that was his plan originally, to have River shoot him (as the Teselecta) and drop off the radar. If it could fake a regeneration beginning, it could probably fake being the Doctor enough that they'd be convinced it was him when they checked his body - and he apparently left instructions to Canton to "confirm" it was really him and bring gas to inspire the Viking funeral. But then River broke the universe and he had to reach her and explain everything to her in the alternate universe, thus ultimately having the same result with the difference that River knows he's not dead. This also explains why he doesn't just immediately show River he's the Teselecta in the alternate universe - he wanted to avoid letting her know if at all possible, but she was so stubborn he had no choice but to tell her.

 

[wind_steaker]

You know how every season reintroduced a villain/monster from the classic series? Season 1: Daleks, Season 2: Cybermen, Season 3: The Master, Season 4: Sontarans, Season 5: Silurians.
Did they forget to do that this year? The closest we seem to got was the Minotaur in The God Complex being a descendant of the Nimon.

I think this was an intentional move to try and create some new iconic monsters, and I think it's gone pretty well so far with the Silents.

 

[ag-my001]

Also remember that the Teselecta can mimic life signs, as seen in Let's Kill Hitler. When they checked to see if the Doctor was dead, it would have given all indications that this was true.

 

[BatDan]

I think this was an intentional move to try and create some new iconic monsters, and I think it's gone pretty well so far with the Silents.

Yeah they were pretty awesome.
At least Moffat did confirm that more classic series monsters are coming. Here's hoping for Ice Warriors in Season 7.

 

[GSR]

I think this was an intentional move to try and create some new iconic monsters, and I think it's gone pretty well so far with the Silents.

Agreed. For all the issues I had with season 6, I really loved the Silents and hope they show up again.

 

[Seraphis Cain]

Also remember that the Teselecta can mimic life signs, as seen in Let's Kill Hitler. When they checked to see if the Doctor was dead, it would have given all indications that this was true.

It's pretty mindblowing that the Teselecta can apparently mimic a Time Lord's regeneration process too.

And by "mindblowing" I mean "kinda silly".

 

[V_Arnold]

Wow, reading back this...

KuwabaraTheMan's posts are pure and concentrated salt and hate thrown at a forum thread in an attempt to see what sticks, None of them do, for me, so guess I am lucky

The episode was good. I love the consequences. Btw I think the Doctor's real name is "God". It only makes sense

Anyways, I wonder how they will reunite him with Amy now.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

I just realized....River married and kissed a Robot.

:/

 

[EleventhDoctor]

the last 20 or so posts epitomize what i hated about this season, i'm disappointed that a discussion like that even has to take place. it's just bad writing.

No. It may not be a story you didn't like, or you didn't care for the resolution-but in NO way is this "Bad" writing. Unless this is the only television show you've ever seen could you call this "Bad" writing.

 

[wind_steaker]

One thing that I'm actually pretty happy with about the last few seasons is the lack of the doctor completely destroying his enemies every time they turn up - no longer must we suffer the comical trend of "the last few" Daleks slipping through the net yet again.

As someone said earlier I'd love a whole episode in the Bladerunner/Star Wars-esque settings that Moffat has used in many of his intro sequences.

 

[V_Arnold]

No. It may not be a story you didn't like, or you didn't care for the resolution-but in NO way is this "Bad" writing. Unless this is the only television show you've ever seen could you call this "Bad" writing.

One of the most basic pitfalls that any "veteran" tv-show/comic/book enjoyer can fall into....
Instead of realizing that one got too invested in stories and simply can see the outcome from the presented storys, they keep shouting "predictable!" and "boring", and "bad writing". It is not bad writing.

It is never bad writing when it is logical or follows the rules of drama, imho.

 

[The Technomancer]

No. It may not be a story you didn't like, or you didn't care for the resolution-but in NO way is this "Bad" writing. Unless this is the only television show you've ever seen could you call this "Bad" writing.

The pacing was pretty damn terrible. Everything from when he meets up with alternate Amy through the Silents breaking free was crammed into too little space. In a broader sense there was no tension or sense of dread to the "broken time and history" thing because it was established and then fixed so quickly. That's not necessarily a bad thing in a vacuum, but they were clearly trying to have those things, and they failed.

 

[thefil]

I agree with the general trend of disappointment in the thread. I'm a big fan of deus ex machina in this series, and I enjoyed the twist with the Tesselector, but even I found the whole situation kind of strained and forced. Did not feel the emotion or tension.

I think it would have been better without the fractured time thing. I would have enjoyed The Doctor knowing that he could avoid it, but having to do something along the lines of:
* ensure everyone was there at the fixed point
* ensure everyone was in the correct mindset at the fixed point

So maybe the finale would be him in the Tesselector believing we was going to/was ready to die.

 

[The Technomancer]

In a sense poor pacing is really why the main "story" of this season hasn't really grabbed me. Like, I'm fine with the idea of focusing on River in theory (and they did manage to take River's character from "insufferable" to "someone I'm actually interested in" for me), but for whatever variety of reasons they didn't go far enough with making the season about her, and so we get AGMGTW and Lets Kill Hitler, which answer important questions but feel like they're just throwing them out there so that we finally have answers. We found out too much too fast without any character development because they only allocated so much space to the Amy-Rory-Melody-River-thing.

 

[Trokil]

It's pretty mindblowing that the Teselecta can apparently mimic a Time Lord's regeneration process too.

And by "mindblowing" I mean "kinda silly".

That was always the Tardis inside the Teselecta

 

[StalkerUKCG]

When Beheaded Blue Guy talks about "the fall of 11 on the field of whatever", we're meant to think it's referring to the end of the 11th Doctor and his regeneration. But I think it's a reference to River Song's cryptic statement that he'll "rise higher than he's ever been, then fall so much farther". Less of the Doctor falling in battle, and more of him falling from grace. That, in turn, would lead to a redemption (and maybe regeneration) story later on.

That was "A good man goes to war".

We wont find out the doctors name, its going to be some cop out

 

[bengraven]

The Tesselecta could recreate a motorcycle and the man riding it, I don't see why it can't do special effects.




Also, anyone else want to see the Doctor just walk into the library and somehow spend a few regenerations on bringing River back? Because despite how said Silence in the Library is now, having gotten to love River over the last couple years, it's hardly a big payoff for the Doctor's wife.



Also, Doriam is the man. I hope we see him again.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

The Tesselecta could recreate a motorcycle and the man riding it, I don't see why it can't do special effects.




Also, anyone else want to see the Doctor just walk into the library and somehow spend a few regenerations on bringing River back? Because despite how said Silence in the Library is now, having gotten to love River over the last couple years, it's hardly a big payoff for the Doctor's wife.



Also, Doriam is the man. I hope we see him again.

Id be very happy if river was phased out of the story, shes been nothing but predictable in the smith era and at times annoying.

 

[JonathanEx]

The Tesselecta could recreate a motorcycle and the man riding it, I don't see why it can't do special effects.

Quote the Moff: "It can turn its legs into a motorbike and snog Alex Kingston ... and you're asking about a lightshow??"

"Well EXACTLY. The Mill can do that in 2011. You think the Teselecta can't???"

 

[Dr Zhivago]

One thing that irritated me about the 'time has frozen' concept, is that clearly time hadn't stopped because events were still occurring. Clocks are just machines, if steam trains are still working then clocks should still tick.

Also, how f'ed up is the picnic by the lake? We have the Doctor, who is really a shape-shifting space robot. Amy is really a doppelganger being remote-controlled from an asteroid in the 50th century. River is there twice from different points in her timeline. Rory is the only normal one there.

 

[radioheadrule83]

One thing that irritated me about the 'time has frozen' concept, is that clearly time hadn't stopped because events were still occurring. Clocks are just machines, if steam trains are still working then clocks should still tick.

I didn't take it as events still occurring willy nilly, but with romans n' shit... I viewed it as how the characters might perceive all of time on pause, or perceive history all at once, if it weren't just a freeze frame... I liked that it was a bit scatty and strange, like a weird dream. Its an imaginative take. How are we to know how the universe would reconcile its timeless state with all of these self-aware sentient life forms in limbo? It worked for me anyway, my suspension of disbelief was in full effect.

I really enjoyed the episode overall btw, and I'm looking forward to Christmas!

 

[WrenchNinja]

So I was watching the Doctor Who Confidential for the finale and was reminded of one thing that bothered me about River's timeline...how did the kid River from 1969 travel to the 00s to grow up with Amy and Rory? Did she take the long path? If she did, why didn't she age? The Silence couldn't possibly have done it since they'd all be gone on Earth due to the moon landing broadcast...so what happened?

 

[radioheadrule83]

So I was watching the Doctor Who Confidential for the finale and was reminded of one thing that bothered me about River's timeline...how did the kid River from 1969 travel to the 00s to grow up with Amy and Rory? Did she take the long path? If she did, why didn't she age? The Silence couldn't possibly have done it since they'd all be gone on Earth due to the moon landing broadcast...so what happened?

She was a full-on agent of Madame Kovarian and co at that point, she had to have her brainwashing pretty much broken by the Doctor nearly dying -- and the Silents have been shown on numerous occasions to be in possession of time travel tech / TARDIS like ships. I figured she'd just been transported at some point... was there a date with that scene in which she's researching Lake Silencio and Madame Kovarian appears? It could have been then if not

Speaking of Madame Kovarian, she didn't die on screen. What's that rule... if you don't see it happen, it didn't necessarily happen

 

[Sai-kun]

"River Song didn't get it all from you...sweetie."

:lol omg, that was amazing. So so great.

 

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

I think we're all forgetting another important thing.
The Brigadier is dead. At least he went peacefully.

Yes I know the actor that played him died, but that still doesn't make the scene sad.

I've never gotten how that stuff works in Dr.Who, if the Brigadier is dead when he called why not travel back a decade and have a natter with him then?

 

[maharg]

Speaking of Madame Kovarian, she didn't die on screen. What's that rule... if you don't see it happen, it didn't necessarily happen

It was in an aborted timeline anyways. She's not dead.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

Assuming Kovarian retains her memories of the aborted timeline, then she now knows that The Silents will kill her the second she has exceeded her usefulness. Surely that could inspire a change in motivation for the character.

I hope we see her again, and explore the background behind her venom.

 

[KibblesBits]

I've never gotten how that stuff works in Dr.Who, if the Brigadier is dead when he called why not travel back a decade and have a natter with him then?

Once something has already happened the Doctor tends to leave it as is.

 

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

Once something has already happened the Doctor tends to leave it as is.

That's probably the best way to handle that sort of thing, playing it as the Doctor knowing to respect time.

 

[CorrisD]

The Tesselecta could recreate a motorcycle and the man riding it, I don't see why it can't do special effects.




Also, anyone else want to see the Doctor just walk into the library and somehow spend a few regenerations on bringing River back? Because despite how said Silence in the Library is now, having gotten to love River over the last couple years, it's hardly a big payoff for the Doctor's wife.

I don't think that will ever happen.

I think it is great that Moffat put an "end" to the character the first time we met her, and we saw her beginning and her being stuck as the River we know at the two mid point episodes of the series.

So while Alex Kingston has to play her at this point, it also means at some point they are going to stop using her as part of these arcs, which to me can only be a good thing as it means developing new stories and characters for the future, at some point she is just going to have to stop being in it.

Of course that doesn't mean the character can never come back, in 10 years time whoever is writing it might decide to bring her back in some form and then us lot watching now can be all "oh har har, remember when she was doing bla bla", but I wouldn't be surprised if she is phased out by the end of the next series, especially if Matt Smith moves on after the next.

Though personally I think it would be great if he stays on longer, in my head an ideal concept would be keeping him till the 50th special, have a multi-doctor episode that a lot of people want, and then introduce a new doctor at the same time.

 

[OMG Aero]

And there are some difficulties to pretending to being dead at one point for a show with time travel, but hey ho. Suppose it only needs to affect the bigger baddies (Silence, Daleks etc).

Actually, it would be incredibly easy for the Doctor to pretend to be dead without changing how he acts at all. All he needs to do is pretend not to know anything about the Silence, other races will assume this is a past version of the Doctor before he was shot at the lake and his cover will remain intact.

 

[maharg]

Assuming Kovarian retains her memories of the aborted timeline, then she now knows that The Silents will kill her the second she has exceeded her usefulness. Surely that could inspire a change in motivation for the character.

I hope we see her again, and explore the background behind her venom.

Why would she? Amy is the only human who's been singled out as being able to remember things cross-timeline.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Actually, it would be incredibly easy for the Doctor to pretend to be dead without changing how he acts at all. All he needs to do is pretend not to know anything about the Silence, other races will assume this is a past version of the Doctor before he was shot at the lake and his cover will remain intact.

That's what I was thinking. It's really possible that this doesn't change anything at all.

 

[bengraven]

What bothers me the most:

- when River was introduced, she was a woman in her mid-40s who admitted to having a long affair with the Doctor. I assumed it meant when she was younger. I was expecting at some point we'd get the Doctor traveling and falling in love with a younger River Song.

Instead we get a young River song that wants to kill the Doctor, then becoming 48 year old River Song who wants to kill the Doctor, but then falls in love with him, but is also completely out of regenerations.

I don't want to be ageist or anything, but I feel like we were teased something that didn't come to pass.

- The love story between the two is not really very realistic is it? I mean, his entire side of the events is "this is a woman who I have a relationship with in the future and she's coming onto me". Sure, maybe eventually he saw her value and fell for her, but he never got to spend time with her without that pressure of "we're going to be a hot item in the future".

 

[SpeedingUptoStop]

the whole River age issue needs to be taken as 1) she's a Time Lord, just one out of regenerations. She's always going to look about the same age no matter the time, just like The Doctor does after 200+ years of traveling 2) she's actually getting older irl (Moffat tried to write around this in LKH by saying she was doing it to "freak everyone out").

As for the romance, I think it's thinly substantiated enough to pass by me, but I'd really prefer if it there was more richness and depth added to it next season now that they've got the mysteries and coyness out of the way. This season had to pack in a lot of backstory, I'm just hoping it's all more like prologue for more prominent romance next season.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

the whole River age issue needs to be taken as 1) she's a Time Lord, just one out of regenerations. She's always going to look about the same age no matter the time, just like The Doctor does after 200+ years of traveling 2) she's actually getting older irl (Moffat tried to write around this in LKH by saying she was doing it to "freak everyone out").

As for the romance, I think it's thinly substantiated enough to pass by me, but I'd really prefer if it there was more richness and depth added to it next season now that they've got the mysteries and coyness out of the way. This season had to pack in a lot of backstory, I'm just hoping it's all more like prologue for more prominent romance next season.

Additionally, we know that in the 200 years between The God Complex and Closing Time, he and River had a ton of offscreen adventures to fill up their diaries.

 

[BatDan]

And now, a Doctor Who short written by a bunch of kids. I'm probably late but yeah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHu2JNfHG9A

 

[Slime]

This is the first Doctor Who story in ages I've been disappointed by. It just felt kind of cheap and predictable to me. When we saw things like the space loop doubles, the gangers, and then the Teselecta, I was convinced that those were just red herrings to make us think there was an easy way out of the problem introduced in the premiere. With all the dramatic build up and cryptic messages sprinkled throughout the season I didn't think it was possible that the main payoff for the arc would be yet another instance of timey wimey Steven Moffat-dictated "rule-breaking" with a cute little twist (that I saw coming episodes ago, and then again a few minutes into this one).

I do like Moffat, and I enjoyed Series 5 and most of Series 6 because a lot of his stories served as great character-building for Amy, Rory and River. My main issue with this finale is that 90% of it just felt like samey, self-congratulatory twistiness with a few lines of cryptic dialogue to ensure we're given a preview of the next grand arc. But if all I'm supposed to take away from this "fall of the eleventh" nonsense is that Moffat has another big twist up his sleeve, I'm not sure I can really muster up the enthusiasm again.

I'm all for stories where the Doctor shows everyone how clever he is and gets out of trouble, but only when they're actually handled cleverly and in a way that surprises me. Doing so doesn't require a big season-long arc with twists and turns and shadowy organizations and the universe in peril and the Doctor cheating death. Doing so just requires good storytelling, something Moffat seems to think requires the crutch of a twist ending with a big Get Out of Jail Free card to accomplish. That's fine every now and then, but at this point it's just starting to feel routine.

One thing I really liked about the episode was the bit about the Brigadier. That was handled beautifully and really brought me back.

 

[Android18a]

And now, a Doctor Who short written by a bunch of kids. I'm probably late but yeah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHu2JNfHG9A

Little more than a nice novelty, but it made about as much sense as some of the other episodes this season. Must be great for the kids to see their script acted out like that. If it helps kids get into writing as they get older it can only be a good thing. I wonder if any of the kids who worked on this will be on the Who staff in 20 years time?

I hope Who is still on TV when I'm old.

 

[mrklaw]

so what was the point of the different coat, completed rubiks cube etc? Can't be explained by robot doc, as he was only there last minute?

and how do you create a fixed point in time anyway? He's a fucking time lord, but being upstaged by the silence?

 

[Deleted member 10571]

If you missed Confidential, I recommend it strongly, it features a very nice explanation of River's story

 

[JonathanEx]

so what was the point of the different coat, completed rubiks cube etc? Can't be explained by robot doc, as he was only there last minute?

and how do you create a fixed point in time anyway? He's a fucking time lord, but being upstaged by the silence?

Different coat: He wanted a new coat.
Completed rubiks cube: Don't know, this is why you should stop taking theories from Gallifrey Base.
Fixed point: It's partly to do with where it happens, as noted when asked about the lake, which was a 'still point, which makes it easier to create a fixed point'. Possibly just importance of the event helps make a fixed point?

Actually, it would be incredibly easy for the Doctor to pretend to be dead without changing how he acts at all. All he needs to do is pretend not to know anything about the Silence, other races will assume this is a past version of the Doctor before he was shot at the lake and his cover will remain intact.

Sure - but I'm just sort of wondering what the point of that would be if he didn't change anything of how he's acted, unless it was to just hide from the Silence and not be quieter from the rest of the universe.

 

[APZonerunner]

Well, regardless of what all us thing what worries me is what the general public thing - my cousin, 11, and his family, no longer watch religiously, whereas they used to. Then there's this, from Points OF View, A BBC program where viewers write in to criticize or congratulate the BBC's programs which has been running as long as Who has.

Points of View is one of few ways to get a hnadle on the general public, and the things they aired?

"Sure's it's time someone said what lots of people are thinking: What's gone wrong with Doctor Who?"

"I love Doctor Who, but it really seems to have lost its way. Last night's was hectic, confusing and boring."

"The Writers have got far too clever for their own good."

Moffat's shenanigans of time-bending and stuff were amazing in Girl in the Fireplace and Blink, but I do think the extended arcs and constant use of this stuff is putting a certain type of viewer off... which is a shame.

Quotes via: http://blogtorwho.blogspot.com/2011/10/points-of-view-who-feedback.html

 

[Router]

I'm still loving the show. Its not even close to the shittyness of season 4.

 

[JonathanEx]

This Radio Times research is interesting on the wider audience point: http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2011...ith-is-a-hit-with-children-and-middle-classes

So, what have we learned?

In short: kids love Doctor Who more than ever, especially middle-class ones - older and working-class audiences are on the wane.

The challenge of "winning" the live timeslot will continue for Who, but it's in good shape online, and with every series a new crop of fans grow to love it.

A story of change indeed, but certainly reports of Doctor Who's death appear to have been greatly exaggerated.

 

[radioheadrule83]

The one thing I would say is that its a bad idea to go into a season break with too much mystery... or certainly doing so too often.

I think people get fatigued by constant mytery (see shows like Lost - which I personally loved). Its understandable that people tire of it if its the only go-to-gimmick that writers use to keep viewers on the hook. People should want to come back next season because they enjoyed the last season, not simply because they *have* to watch the next one for story resolution.

It's okay to go into the next season retaining some unresolved elements of the arc, but if you're just waving a question in someone's face and making them have to wait months for an unsatisfying answer, then that is obviously going to irritate people.

What is the question: Doctor who?

That's okay I guess. He's never had a name, and Moffat obviously likes the idea of playing with that and seeing what can be done with it... And we have some teased information about the 'fall of the eleventh' on the fields of Trenzalore. Hopefully, all this build up has a decent payoff.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

I actually groaned when they brought up 'the fall of the eleventh'. We've just had an overwrought arc about the Doctor's 'death', and now we're going to do it all over again?

And 'Doctor Who?' being the Oldest Question of Universe-Ending Importance rubs me up the wrong way as well. I thought we were getting over the whole Doctor-as-God thing?

I was reading through last year's thread to find what I'd written about The Big Bang, and I found that I had actually considered River being Amy & Rory's daughter back then, but had dismissed it as River didn't recognise Rory during The Pandorica Opens. Except now we find that River was just 'pretending' not to know him, for some unfathomable reason.

I'm still loving the show. Its not even close to the shittyness of season 4.

I preferred S4 to this season.

 

[devildog820]

Eh. I really liked this season. I also really liked last season. It's just really fun to watch with some fantastic risk taking (plot-wise) by the writers. It's definitely fun to pick apart after the show is over, but to say that diminishes the show is incorrect.

 

[Freyjadour]

You know how every season reintroduced a villain/monster from the classic series? Season 1: Daleks, Season 2: Cybermen, Season 3: The Master, Season 4: Sontarans, Season 5: Silurians.
Did they forget to do that this year? The closest we seem to got was the Minotaur in The God Complex being a descendant of the Nimon.

Few of those ever turned out well, so I don't really think that's a problem with the series.