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Doctor Who Series 2011 |OT| Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Stuff
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
- Start date
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infiniteloop
Member
Top Ten Non-Moffat in transmission order
The Unquiet Dead
Dalek
Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways
The Christmas Invasion
Tooth and Claw
The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit
Human Nature/The Family of Blood
Midnight
Turn Left
The Waters of Mars
The Unquiet Dead
Dalek
Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways
The Christmas Invasion
Tooth and Claw
The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit
Human Nature/The Family of Blood
Midnight
Turn Left
The Waters of Mars
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Blader5489 said:
Fathers Day is very good for the timey wimey stuff, what happens when time is screwed up. Makes plot holes for the future but what ever.
Fear Her.
trollolololol
Hot Coldman
Banned
I still say the best story from the RTD years was The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Definitely one of the better ones, and with a sci-fi bent that I feel the last few series' have been lacking.Green Scar said:
Still I always pull those episodes out jokingly as
the time the Doctor literally kills Satan
Hot Coldman
Banned
The_Technomancer said:
It's just an evil alien that just so happens to look exactly like Medieval interpretations of Satan/the Devil 
brucewaynegretzky
Member
Green Scar said:It's my top choice for any of the RTD monsters to return, regardless of weird thematic issues.It's just an evil alien that just so happens to look exactly like Medieval interpretations of Satan/the Devil
Time Dragon Antibodies! Seriously, bring them back....
EleventhDoctor
Banned
Green Scar said:It's my top choice for any of the RTD monsters to return, regardless of weird thematic issues.It's just an evil alien that just so happens to look exactly like Medieval interpretations of Satan/the Devil
Yeah even on that episode of Confidential, RTD describes how they basically sent that description over to the effects guys, and that's what they made.
Hot Coldman
Banned
brucewaynegretzky said:
What the hell is a 'Time Dragon Antibody'? You mean the Reapers? If so, yes, I want them back too. They really should have been in The Wedding of River Song.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
Green Scar said:
Ugh-I hated those things. So silly.
KibblesBits
Member
MDavis360 said:
There are other things in the vortex they could have let loose as well. More's the pity.
brucewaynegretzky
Member
Green Scar said:
Maybe. I think that sounds right. They were the things from Father's Day. I really feel like they should be showing up more the way they were explained... Plenty of anomalies to deal with. I loved those monsters.
Hot Coldman
Banned
brucewaynegretzky said:
I think the only reason they didn't show up to clean up the mess- or at least what they'd say if they could bothered to explain it in the show- was because anomalies with Time Lords at the centre are much more unstable and dangerous, and result in a 5:02 scenario and a disintegrating universe. Those caused by humans and other such species are manageable by the Reapers.
brucewaynegretzky
Member
Green Scar said:
I don't care. I still want them to come back. Any reason. They were a really menacing villain.
Wait a minute.
If River was always planning to not kill the Doctor by emptying her weapon array or whatever then shouldn't that have been the series of events that became the fixed point in time?
It's not like the Silence could open up a big time book and schedule "Doctor gets shot by River Song at Lake Silencio". Something becomes a fixed point in time by having it happen. River was 'changing' it as it happened as a direct participant in the event and not as a time traveler after the fact.
Stupid timey-wimey.
If River was always planning to not kill the Doctor by emptying her weapon array or whatever then shouldn't that have been the series of events that became the fixed point in time?
It's not like the Silence could open up a big time book and schedule "Doctor gets shot by River Song at Lake Silencio". Something becomes a fixed point in time by having it happen. River was 'changing' it as it happened as a direct participant in the event and not as a time traveler after the fact.
Stupid timey-wimey.
Hot Coldman
Banned
brucewaynegretzky said:
I know, I agreed with you :L Just hypothesizing why they weren't in the S6 finale. They should show up, I'm surprised 'companion tries to avert tragedy from their past' isn't a more common story in Who
The Elite
BOSS
ultron87 said:
I don't quite get what you're saying. The fixed point was River "killing The Teslecta" and make it appear that the Doctor had died. The fact that she drains her weapon instead of using it to "kill The Doctor" creates a drastic change for the time stream.
It isn't simply the two of them in the same place, it's the two of them in the same place doing exactly what we saw them do in the Impossible Planet. In the DW Universe, a fixed universe isn't simply because it happened, it's because of its effect on the time stream. Just because I decided to take a shit five minutes ago instead of holding it in another five minutes doesn't change anything for the rest of the universe. However, The Doctor, a profound figure, dying at that place and at that time... at the hand of River Song is FIXED. It's important.
Think of Time as a house of cards. Each card represents a decision or an event. Pull a card from the top and not much changes. Pull a card from the bottom or the middle and the whole house can come crumbling down.
That's what happened in the Wedding of River Song. TIME collapsed in on itself just like a house of cards.
A time lord can tell the difference between a top card and a middle or bottom card. A time lord knows the foundation events of the very fabric of space/time.
I'm saying that it never would become fixed in that manner because River's original choice when her timeline reached the point where she is standing in that spacesuit is to not kill the Doctor.
River only ended up shooting the "Doctor" because it had somehow already been predetermined that she would do it.
River only ended up shooting the "Doctor" because it had somehow already been predetermined that she would do it.
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
DoctorWho said:
That's sort of what I got out of it. Once the Doctor had the foreknowledge of his death the events leading up to it changed. That was evidenced by his near death in "Let's Kill Hitler" when everyone was surprised by the events that occurred in it, and River Song was inspired to save him. Subsequently when she met him in the future (since "Let's Kill Hitler" was in her past now) she had much more motivation to not kill him. This sparked the change in that she was trying to not kill him, even though it was to be a fixed point in time. The use of the tesselector, and not the actual doctor, and everyone thinking him dead, was enough to ensure that it satisfied the requirement of being a fixed point in time. The "Doctor" died. And that's how, in reality, the Doctor did not die.
Okay, thinking on it more I guess I can make it make sense:
A) The Silence kidnap River, put her in the suit, and it kills the Doctor entirely out of her control. This event, combined with the complicated spacetime objects that are River Song and the Doctor as well as the nature of Lake Silencio being a "still place" (or whatever term they said made it easier to make a fixed point) creates a full bore fixed point in time.
B) The knowledge of this event spreads around time and space since a bunch of people with time travel tech know about it. Since time can be rewritten this changes a lot of things, including the fact that River learns that she is the one that kills the Doctor while being in the spacesuit from her childhood.
C) In this new version of the timeline, using her knowledge of the future, River figures out a way to subvert the suit's control and does not kill the Doctor which causes time to go kablooey because fixed points can't be rewritten.
This all makes sense, except for the fact that the Doctor uses his foreknowledge of the event to have the Tesselecta get shot instead which will have a significant impact on history since the Fields of Trenzelor stuff will still happen as well as the hundreds of other ways the Doctor will save the universe in the future. I dunno.
A) The Silence kidnap River, put her in the suit, and it kills the Doctor entirely out of her control. This event, combined with the complicated spacetime objects that are River Song and the Doctor as well as the nature of Lake Silencio being a "still place" (or whatever term they said made it easier to make a fixed point) creates a full bore fixed point in time.
B) The knowledge of this event spreads around time and space since a bunch of people with time travel tech know about it. Since time can be rewritten this changes a lot of things, including the fact that River learns that she is the one that kills the Doctor while being in the spacesuit from her childhood.
C) In this new version of the timeline, using her knowledge of the future, River figures out a way to subvert the suit's control and does not kill the Doctor which causes time to go kablooey because fixed points can't be rewritten.
This all makes sense, except for the fact that the Doctor uses his foreknowledge of the event to have the Tesselecta get shot instead which will have a significant impact on history since the Fields of Trenzelor stuff will still happen as well as the hundreds of other ways the Doctor will save the universe in the future. I dunno.
The Elite
BOSS
For the Silence, this is pretty much a self fulfilling prophecy. They come into existence and discover that they are going to be responsible for the death of the Doctor. They put events into motion to make sure this happens and utilize other races that hate the Doctor.
They discover the truth behind the Pond child and prepare her for the eventual encounter with the Doctor, and in their eyes, everything has gone according to plan.
FYI, it was always meant to happen with the Tesselecta in place of The Doctor. If he really died, I think that would have caused time space to collapse as well. His "faked" death IS the natural order of things.
They discover the truth behind the Pond child and prepare her for the eventual encounter with the Doctor, and in their eyes, everything has gone according to plan.
FYI, it was always meant to happen with the Tesselecta in place of The Doctor. If he really died, I think that would have caused time space to collapse as well. His "faked" death IS the natural order of things.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
The thing that most people are tripped up on thinking is that the Doctor changed what happened at Lake Silencio by putting the Tesselecta in his place in the finale.
The Tesselecta was ALWAYS killed at Lake Silencio...even in the Impossible Astronaut-he didn't change time. That's what always happened, but history recorded is as that he died, because he wants the people in the Universe-specifically The Silence to think that he died so he can go on the downlow.
The Tesselecta was ALWAYS killed at Lake Silencio...even in the Impossible Astronaut-he didn't change time. That's what always happened, but history recorded is as that he died, because he wants the people in the Universe-specifically The Silence to think that he died so he can go on the downlow.
He only had the Tesselecta there (and went there in the first place) because he knew he was going to die. That is changing an event based on foreknowledge gained from time travel. It really isn't any different than River not killing him based on her foreknowledge that she "is supposed" to kill him.
The only way I can reconcile River's actions blowing up time while the Doctor's actions did not is by determining that the stability of Time is only based on appearances or that the Doctor is allowed to change stuff because he is special.
I understand that in the final timeline we saw it was always the Tesselecta getting shot. My point is that if River and the Doctor are playing by the same rules then the final timeline would've been the Doctor showing up in the Tesselecta only to have River not shoot him as they both acted off their foreknowledge of the events that were about to happen.
The only way I can reconcile River's actions blowing up time while the Doctor's actions did not is by determining that the stability of Time is only based on appearances or that the Doctor is allowed to change stuff because he is special.
I understand that in the final timeline we saw it was always the Tesselecta getting shot. My point is that if River and the Doctor are playing by the same rules then the final timeline would've been the Doctor showing up in the Tesselecta only to have River not shoot him as they both acted off their foreknowledge of the events that were about to happen.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
ultron87 said:
I'm not sure I understand your line of thinking. The Doctor didn't change anything-he can't cross his own timeline. He didn't have any foreknowledge about all the details on the beach-he hadn't seen it and decided to come up with a solution. He got the information, ironically, from the Tesselecta about his death-essentially a wikipedia entry if you will, with the date and location of his death. When he went to the beach, it was the ONLY TIME he ever went there. He never changed a thing. River ALWAYS resisted killing him, and the "5:02 alt-timeline" ALWAYS happened...but it wasn't until River and the Doctor were in it, that he was able to make her go through with killing The Tesslecta.
Hot Coldman
Banned
jon bones said:
Craig ain't getting that back now, haha. Seriously though, I really hope they keep the Stetson and coat for the Doctor next season. Having a Doctor changing his outfit like this (outside of colour changes, before Tennant gets brought up) is nice
brucewaynegretzky
Member
So eventually everyone in the universe is going to realize he isn't dead right? This is the Doctor we're talking about... Eventually the Silence are going to come after him again. Also, is anyone else annoyed with the whole "prediction of the Doctor's death" thing again? They just did this with Tennant and now we're gonna have a whole other season leading up to Smith regenerating in some field.
Hot Coldman
Banned
DoctorWho said:
I'm not going to say I know basically nothing about the 4th Doctor, because that would be blasphemy.
I know basically nothing about the 4th Doctor
Hot Coldman
Banned
DoctorWho said:
Yeah, those pictures, I mean there's obviously the same coat/scarf thing going on there but there's a lot of difference, yeah. I like how Matt's has gone from jacket and bowtie to sorta being covered up by the hat and coat.
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
So will there be more River Song episodes, or do you think she's going to the Library in the very near future? I wasn't quite sure how that will be handled.
Dr Zhivago
Member
Hmm, turns out the business at the lake makes less sense than I thought. It seems to me that the event could only be rewritten by a later version of River (or someone). The Doctor and Spacesuit River are there for the first time, so they're writing the event rather than rewriting.
I'm so bored of paradoxes now, I hope Moffat stops using them.
I'm so bored of paradoxes now, I hope Moffat stops using them.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
phisheep said:
So why kill God? Because they can?
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Mock if old, but I got a good laugh from this. From @DalekThay 's twitter feed.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
It just dawned on me. Rory is Doctor Who's answer to South Park's Kenny.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
isny said:Trying to decide on if I should buy an Amelia Pond figure at the Doctor Who experience when I'm there in a few weeks.
Decisions decisions. (Guess it depends how much other Doctor Who crap they have that I buy first, lol)
It's funny you mention that. I just bought my daughter the Christmas Adventure playset which comes with the TARDIS, The Doctor and Police-costume Amy. I know she's going to demand to know where little Amy is-so I was looking at the price of the figures, and man they're expensive....I got the Adventure set for 30 bucks but the Amelia figure is 20 on her own, at the cheapest.
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