Doctor Who Series 2011 |OT| Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Stuff

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maharg said:
Yes, it's an inscrutable message to herself from herself. Which doesn't say anything about what she should or shouldn't do, only that there's something somewhere somewhen that is trying to get her attention. I guess she figures it may as well be herself.

Oh and then it gets retconned to be ACTUALLY about Bad Wolf Bay and the last place she could ever meet the Doctor, except of course that it wasn't even that.

Such clever planning. The breadth and depth astound me.

Also that whole "missing bees" thing. That was also brilliant. OBVIOUSLY missing bees mean planets are being moved.
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Oh my God I forgot about the whole "missing bees" thing. How stupid.

If they tried to put something like that in now, the Moffet haters would never let it go.
 
S6 was definitely a lot more slapdash than S5, no doubt about it. But I still think River's arc, taken from Silence in the Library, is a very good one. The River-early/Doctor-late part of her story could have been done better but it was still miles above most attempts at difficult time travel arc stories.
 
Green Scar said:
You forgot the part where it's all right-wing propaganda that glorifies war criminals.
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I just want to say that that was an obnoxious thing of me to say and argue about, and I look back on that whole discussion with shame. I'm not really sure what came over me with that.

maharg said:
Yes, it's an inscrutable message to herself from herself. Which doesn't say anything about what she should or shouldn't do, only that there's something somewhere somewhen that is trying to get her attention. I guess she figures it may as well be herself.

Oh and then it gets retconned to be ACTUALLY about Bad Wolf Bay and the last place she could ever meet the Doctor, except of course that it wasn't even that.

Such clever planning. The breadth and depth astound me.

Also that whole "missing bees" thing. That was also brilliant. OBVIOUSLY missing bees mean planets are being moved.

Look. There are more valid hints to the true nature of Amy and the crack in the FIRST EPISODE of Season 5 than there were in any of RTD's ENTIRE SEASONS. We see the crack, we see Amy's family is missing, we see her lack of knowledge about the lack of ducks in the duck pond. They are directly relevant to the end of the season and what it all means. Bad Wolf, missing bees, "he will knock three times" were just memes with no meaning until tied together hastily and haphazardly into a doomsday scenario.
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I agree that none of them are particularly great. I just feel that Moffat's arcs have been sloppier. The cracks were the thing he handled the best, but the Silence Will Fall bit was a case of completely dropping the ball. Moffat clearly had no idea what it meant during Series 5, and their motivations don't line up with what happens at all.

RTD's arcs were not particularly great or anything, but there's no moment where I go back and wonder what someone's motivations were because of the arc. But knowing what we know from Series 6, it makes absolutely no sense why the Silence tried to blow up the TARDIS and destroy the universe (and kill their assassin who was groomed to kill the Doctor who also doesn't recognize her own father). I'm not saying that RTD's arcs were great, but there was never a moment where I had to go back and think "but why did they even do that?" Maybe that's as a result of RTD never trying to do anything as big was what Moffat did, but the fact remains that Moffat's ambitious plans resulted in an arc that completely fell apart in the second season. Yes, the bees disappearing and stuff is something he just tossed in and didn't really connect to anything, but it doesn't leave any inconsistencies in character actions the way the Silence stuff did.

Also, "he will knock four times" was handled far better than any of those other things. The way the message effected the Doctor and the revelation when you found out what it actually meant was stunning. I personally think that's one of the best handled arc moments in Doctor Who. That's not really saying much, though. I'd honestly be happy if they just dropped the arcs entirely for awhile, and focused on trying to tell good stories.
 
maharg said:
S6 was definitely a lot more slapdash than S5, no doubt about it. But I still think River's arc, taken from Silence in the Library, is a very good one. The River-early/Doctor-late part of her story could have been done better but it was still miles above most attempts at difficult time travel arc stories.
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Most def. S6 has issues that would've been ironed out if it had more than 13 episodes, but I can't knock the ambition of it. S5 though, that thing is just one of my favorite TV seasons to me. Dunno how people can hate that.
 
SpeedingUptoStop said:
Most def. S6 has issues that would've been ironed out if it had more than 13 episodes, but I can't knock the ambition of it. S5 though, that thing is just one of my favorite TV seasons to me. Dunno how people can hate that.
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S5 Smith was still finding his feet and the character almost had too much energy at times. I have really high hopes that in S7 Smith's talent and Moffat's talent will line up this time.
 
The_Technomancer said:
S5 Smith was still finding his feet and the character almost had too much energy at times. I have really high hopes that in S7 Smith's talent and Moffat's talent will line up this time.
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I much preferred Smith's performance in Series 5 to Series 6. He gave some really good performances in Series 5, but in Series 6 it seems like they just really upped the goofiness of his performance to the max. He gave some great performances in The Doctor's Wife and Closing Time, but outside of those stories I felt like he did a much better job in Series 5.

A little bit of zaniness is good for the Doctor (and I think they handled that stuff well in S5), but when the Doctor is always being completely zany it feels obnoxious. I'm hoping that Smith can dial things back and return to his 2010 form this year.
 
SpeedingUptoStop said:
Most def. S6 has issues that would've been ironed out if it had more than 13 episodes, but I can't knock the ambition of it. S5 though, that thing is just one of my favorite TV seasons to me. Dunno how people can hate that.
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13 episodes was more than enough, the writers didn't know how to fill in the gaps of the story arc.
They knew: he 'died', River was Amy's baby, and that he hadn't really died. It seemed like tying all of that together was the problem.
 
gabbo said:
13 episodes was more than enough, the writers didn't know how to fill in the gaps of the story. Slapping hamhanded elements into the stand alone stories didn't help either.
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As much as I like the ep, Let Kill Hitler by itself should've been two eps. Still dunno how the Flesh episode was a two parter even on paper. It didn't add to the overall story that much and it felt dragged out by 30 minutes. Big mistake on that one atleast, in terms of the flow of the season.
 
SpeedingUptoStop said:
As much as I like the ep, Let Kill Hitler by itself should've been two eps. Still dunno how the Flesh episode was a two parter even on paper. It didn't add to the overall story that much and it felt dragged out by 30 minutes. Big mistake on that one atleast, in terms of the flow of the season.
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I would guess the chances of seeing Doctor Who go back to 6 episode serials is next to none?
That would solve a lot of the problems I, and other seem to have with season 6 because the writers would be forced to focus only on one story and not filling up time.
 
gabbo said:
I would guess the chances of seeing Doctor Who go back to 6 episode serials is next to none?
That would solve a lot of the problems I, and other seem to have with season 6 because the writers would be forced to focus only on one story and not filling up time.
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I think Moffat said this season was gonna be a lot more standalone? There will probably be a very subtle not as in your face season long arc that won't be revealed til the penultimate ep regardless.
 
SpeedingUptoStop said:
Most def. S6 has issues that would've been ironed out if it had more than 13 episodes, but I can't knock the ambition of it. S5 though, that thing is just one of my favorite TV seasons to me. Dunno how people can hate that.
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YEAH! I loved how whimsical Season 5 felt. I enjoyed it all. Even the corny Dalek episode and the two-parter with the Silurians
 
infiniteloop said:
who he?
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dRYAM.jpg

He of Farscape and Stargate SG1
 
Too bad it isn't actually John Chrichton gust starring. This actually makes me want to reWatch Farscape from the start.


And I actually really liked that Silluian 2 parter, but I'm one of the only ones. I also really loved Night Terrors from this season-the production work on that one was astounding-great lighting and direction. The actor who played the dad also looks like me, so maybe that has something to do with it. :)
 
maharg said:
Oh and then it gets retconned to be ACTUALLY about Bad Wolf Bay and the last place she could ever meet the Doctor, except of course that it wasn't even that.
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I didn't think that was a retcon; I don't think that it was ever *about* Bad Wolf Bay, that was just touched on as an amusing coincidence / sign that the effects of those events had made a lasting change in history.
 
gabbo said:
Doesn't Rose go back through time and write the 'Bad Wolf' messages to herself? Not that I'm attacking you or RTD, I'm simply asking for clarification.
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I figured that when she got all TARDISy and yellow-eyed she simply brought the writing and marks into being all over time and space, as a message to herself.
 
maharg said:
You'd think she could write "The Daleks are Coming" instead.
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The fact that once she got all TARDISy and knew that 'bad' is dålig in two of the Nordic languages, realised the existence of Dålig Ulv Stranden, she thought someone would work it out from a bunch of graffittied walls and signs just goes to show that with absolute power comes absolute idiocy.
 
gabbo said:
Half dozen of one, six of another.
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Not really. I would consider her travelling to all the various times/places in question and manually planting the material to be very different from her being all god-like and just making it happen.
 
Catching up with previous seasons with my kids. My 10-year-old son has seen from season 5.

Currently watching season 4 on Netflix, but I noticed they only have one of the season 4/5 specials. Can't see waters of mars, planet of the dead, or the two parter where we say goodbye to David tennant.

Anyone know another online service that has them, so I don't have to buy them from iTunes
 
mrklaw said:
Catching up with previous seasons with my kids. My 10-year-old son has seen from season 5.

Currently watching season 4 on Netflix, but I noticed they only have one of the season 4/5 specials. Can't see waters of mars, planet of the dead, or the two parter where we say goodbye to David tennant.

Anyone know another online service that has them, so I don't have to buy them from iTunes
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Are you watching them on instant play? If you are, you should be able to see Waters of Mars and End of Time parts I and II. Those are up there.

And I watched Planet of the Dead on youtube. I'm sure there's a much better way out there somewhere though.
 
S.Dedalus said:
Are you watching them on instant play? If you are, you should be able to see Waters of Mars and End of Time parts I and II. Those are up there.

And I watched Planet of the Dead on youtube. I'm sure there's a much better way out there somewhere though.
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UK Netflix just to clarify.
 
So a new full time companion? I was expecting Amy and Rory to basically be backup and him to be doing it alone.

This would be cool because if she sticks maybe Smith will stay on another couple years.

Edit: oh wow, if that's her she's going to give Amy a run for the money
 
I just finished the 6th season after taking a hiatus for many months. Netflix finally put the second half of the episodes up so that rather helped.

Should I even bother asking what the hell happened in the season finale? None of it makes any sense to me, but I'm not sure if it's just to be expected that some sort of claptrap will always end a season. So the Doctor's death is a fixed unchangeable point....but Summer changes it and time goes haywire. So the Doctor reverts things. Then changes the same fixed unchangeable point by substituting in a robot body double..........and there are no repurcussions. Huh?
 
People's belief in the death of the doctor was the fixed point. As far as the universe is concerned, the Doctor died. River broke it by being observed to fail.

Hence why she's still in jail.

Still weird to me that people consider "the doctor never died" a copout but apparently want the alternative of "the doctor died but then he didn't and wibbledywobbledy."
 
The Robot Clone switcheroo feels like the copout. If "The Doctor never died" were explained away in some other fashion I might have liked it better.
 
Cheap is what Doctor who is all about. It's the softest of sf, with a dash of corn, cheese, and ham, and lashings of tripe. This is as it always has been and as it always will be...I hope!
 
If it was the body from the Rebel Flesh I would have felt it would have been a much more logical and fulfilling answer.
 
border said:
The Robot Clone switcheroo feels like the copout. If "The Doctor never died" were explained away in some other fashion I might have liked it better.
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It's especially cheap since in The Impossible Astronaut the characters wonder if it might be a duplicate or something, and then Canton shows up and says "That is most certainly the Doctor, and he is most certainly dead".

I mean, you can debate about why he would even know that, but from a narrative perspective it's just a huge middle finger to the viewer. You have characters question if it might be a duplicate, have another character show up to say "it's not a duplicate" with authority, in their only real role in that scene, and then twelve episodes later go "lol, it was a duplicate after all, guys".
 
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