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[GameplayWhore]

River song is just Bad Wolf, or Saxon, or 'cracks in time'. Almost entirely pointless and unsatisfying 'season arc'. The episodes are standalone, just do them like that. Stupid pan away at end of episode to reveal bad wolf graffiti or a crack is just cheesy

For what it's worth, Bad Wolf and Saxon were a lot more subtle than the cracks. They were usually things in the background which only became prominent as the conclusion became closer. The cracks were super in-your-face from the start.

Spoiler

The fact that the conclusions were generally terrible is immaterial to this point.

 

[mrklaw]

For what it's worth, Bad Wolf and Saxon were a lot more subtle than the cracks. They were usually things in the background which only became prominent as the conclusion became closer. The cracks were super in-your-face from the start.

Spoiler

The fact that the conclusions were generally terrible is immaterial to this point.

I'll give you that (although they shoved Saxon down your throat fairly suddenly in the second half of season 3)

So they're getting less subtle as they go on? Just kill this 'arc' stuff, have faith in your standalone stories.

 

[davidcotton]

Anyone got ideas for new OT titles? "Doctor Who Series 2012 |OT| Silence Must Fall" is the best I've got.

"Doctor Who Series 2012 |OT| Don't apply logic to Who"

 

[Hot Coldman]

The cracks are different from Saxon and Bad Wolf because they were important way before the finale. They were important as early as the 5th episode of the series, and a general driving force for the series. Saxon and Bad Wolf were finale plot elements layered throughout the series, the cracks were series arc elements.

This also explains why they were less subtle.

 

[DieH@rd]

Doctor Who Series 2012 |OT| Fall of the Eleventh

 

[infiniteloop]

Moffat starting on the Christmas Special:

Steven Moffat ‏ @steven_moffat
Right then. It's that time of year already. I'm breaking out the Christmas songs ... !

 

[gabbo]

The cracks are different from Saxon and Bad Wolf because they were important way before the finale. They were important as early as the 5th episode of the series, and a general driving force for the series. Saxon and Bad Wolf were finale plot elements layered throughout the series, the cracks were series arc elements.

This also explains why they were less subtle.

The difference being River was built up to be important, integral to several arcs over multiple seasons then it turns out she... wasn't.

 

[GameplayWhore]

So they're getting less subtle as they go on? Just kill this 'arc' stuff, have faith in your standalone stories.

I would agree with this, but I would like more nods to previous encounters, more guest appearances of older companions, more examples of actions in prior episodes showing up in newer episodes. That was one of the nice things about "The Long Game"/"Bad Wolf".

 

[GameplayWhore]

The difference being River was built up to be important, integral to several arcs over multiple seasons then it turns out she... wasn't.

Yes, the only way they could make her integral to the overal mythos again is if, I dunno, she gained a new set of regenerations, and her next regen turned out to be Hartnell.

Edit: Er, oh, wait, they'd also have to work around the whole "dead and stored in a computer" thing. But this is Moffat we're talking about. He loves retroactively undoing his own writing.

 

[GentlemanCrow]

River song is just Bad Wolf, or Saxon, or 'cracks in time'. Almost entirely pointless and unsatisfying 'season arc'. The episodes are standalone, just do them like that. Stupid pan away at end of episode to reveal bad wolf graffiti or a crack is just cheesy

I disagree on that score. I saw alot of potential with River. While initally a throwaway character she became this rogue element that could have really shaken up Who. In truth yes, she became the flavour of the season arcing mainstay, like the Bad Wolf but she could have been a longstanding addition. But then the writers became aware of this or probably just Kingston didn't want to get tangled up in it so she asked them to get done with the story quick sharp.

Personally I would have liked to have seen the Doctor interact with her for decades, played by different similar looking actresses of various ages playing against many regenerated doctors. Instead of the half-timelord cop out. She was a switch up in the formula that I approved of greatly. I recently was shown a webisode that covered the many meetings of the doctor, with River including the last one before her death. What a waste of a character and a premise.

I find it a worrying trend that Who has fallen into. The setting up these things that you know will be explained over the course of the next season. It is so formulaic. I understand that Who is locked into this mass appeal, merchandising, cycle now but what I really would like to see is a story in the mold of the original series. A long running arc in a single location over the course of 3 or 4 episodes.

I have this nerdy wish to see a small war being waged on a alien planet between two faction and the doctor is thrown into the melee and has to pick a side and has to live with that decision. Over the course of the episodes you find out what motivations and so and then at the end its all futile and both sides are wiped out leaving the doctor, a good meaty tale. The story has no effect on Earth and in the scope of the universe it doesn't really matter but its a personal defeat for him.

I don't like that every series finale has to be universe shattering. It ticks me off that they constantly try to out do it and its getting old fast. Earth, Universe, Reality there is nowhere bigger to blow up and I wish they would stop trying - bring it back down to the smaller scale, It can still be powerful TV.

 

[wind_steaker]

I think now that the Doctor (Caretaker) has "died" we will be getting some more personal tales and a little less of the earth being destroyed.

Anyhoo, we're not really making the new thread already are we? I'd suggest waiting until we had some real news and it was a bit closer to the season starting...

 

[GameplayWhore]

I have this nerdy wish to see a small war being waged on a alien planet between two faction and the doctor is thrown into the melee and has to pick a side and has to live with that decision. Over the course of the episodes you find out what motivations and so and then at the end its all futile and both sides are wiped out leaving the doctor, a good meaty tale. The story has no effect on Earth and in the scope of the universe it doesn't really matter but its a personal defeat for him.

Isn't that basically the unseen Time War that he went through just before meeting Rose?

Well, except for the "small" part. I guess "all of time and space" is a bit large a battlefield.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

Part of me was hoping that we would see The Doctor and River have a child-even offscreen or between seasons, and that child would be Susan's parent. Then Susan would end up being raised by the First Doctor. To me, that would be pretty cool-the First Doctor would be raising his descendant that he had yet to help create...

 

[Slime]

I'm still dying for them to address Susan. Would be such an interesting thing to explore.

 

[GameplayWhore]

Part of me was hoping that we would see The Doctor and River have a child-even offscreen or between seasons, and that child would be Susan's parent. Then Susan would end up being raised by the First Doctor. To me, that would be pretty cool-the First Doctor would be raising his descendant that he had yet to help create...

This would be exceptionally interesting if they also did the thing I suggested above.

It would also explain why Susan was so ... odd in her behavior.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

Doctor Who Series 2012 |OT| Are we ever going to find out why the Tardis exploded?

 

[celebi23]

Doctor Who Series 2012 |OT| Are we ever going to find out why the Tardis exploded?

Thank you! This, plus the voice that River heard in the Tardis before it exploded, have been bugging me like crazy! I really hope that's explained a bit and not forgotten.

 

[Hot Coldman]

The Silence blew up the Tardis in an attempt to kill the Doctor. The real question is, how were they able to do that. To which I answer, perhaps they got River to show them?

The difference being River was built up to be important, integral to several arcs over multiple seasons then it turns out she... wasn't.

I wasn't really comparing River really. Her stuff was slightly anti-climatic (I say slightly because I thoroughly enjoyed S6 in its entirety regardless), but I always found her to be someone who knows a lot of things, rather than someone who necessarily did a lot of things.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Double post... I'm sorry, I'm so so sorry.

 

[Suairyu]

The Silence blew up the Tardis in an attempt to kill the Doctor. The real question is, how were they able to do that. To which I answer, perhaps they got River to show them?

Because PLOT MAGIC.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

Actually....

(and this is incredibly convoluted)

The Silence blew up the TARDIS in an effort to get the Doctor to reboot the Universe...so that River would be conceived in the TARDIS, so they could have a Time Lord weapon to kill The Doctor with.

Very convoluted, and the fact that River was so poor of an assassin just illustrates how poorly that whole storyline played out. It would have been much more interesting if we actually got to have River in full on villain mode for more than one episode-make THAT a season long arc...again, the most interesting concepts in the plots get wrapped up so quickly.

 

[The Technomancer]

The Silence blew up the Tardis in an attempt to kill the Doctor. The real question is, how were they able to do that. To which I answer, perhaps they got River to show them?

I've watched the finale twice now and I still don't see where people got this from.

 

[gabbo]

I've watched the finale twice now and I still don't see where people got this from.

Isn't it brought up this past season once they figure out what/who the Silence are?
If it's not answered by now, I wouldn't expect any answers for it because Wibbly Wobbly and, hey, look over there!

Personally, I'd rather see the Time War touched on with this Doctor (fuck time locks, Moffatt can undo those like anything else) than know his name or see more River explanations.
I mean they've built him up and broken him down (sort of), what better time to explore the most devastating period in the Doctor's history than now?

 

[EleventhDoctor]

I want to preface this by saying I'm a big Moffet fan, but a lot of his ideas don't get explained well on screen. That explanation I gave above is from The Brilliant Book from last year-that's the official story, but I personally feel they did not portray that clearly on screen.

Another example. In between The God Complex and Closing Time, 200 years pass for The Doctor. But that's never actually explained on screen. It's only in the promotional materials for the show that that tidbit comes up. There's no reason that couldn't have been put into the script. Again, it's the little things...

 

[The Technomancer]

Another example. In between The God Complex and Closing Time, 200 years pass for The Doctor. But that's never actually explained on screen. It's only in the promotional materials for the show that that tidbit comes up. There's no reason that couldn't have been put into the script. Again, it's the little things...

Damn, see, that's the really cool stuff that they should be devoting screentime to.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

Damn, see, that's the really cool stuff that they should be devoting screentime to.

Agreed. It's not like That episode was bursting at the seams with plot details.

 

[Box of Bunnies]

Another example. In between The God Complex and Closing Time, 200 years pass for The Doctor. But that's never actually explained on screen.

It's easy to infer though given that it's made clear that it's the day before he goes to the events of The Impossible Astronaut, where we know that he's 200 years older than he was when Amy and Rory last saw him. Not everything has to be written out in big letters (to be honest, this one already was; what you're asking for is that those big letters be flashing neon).

 

[EleventhDoctor]

It's easy to infer though given that it's made clear that it's the day before he goes to the events of The Impossible Astronaut, where we know that he's 200 years older than he was when Amy and Rory last saw him. Not everything has to be written out in big letters (to be honest, this one already was; what you're asking for is that those big letters be flashing neon).

No I get that-but why not mention it? What's the harm? That's a long time for The Doctor to be alone-they should have explored that more.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Actually....

(and this is incredibly convoluted)

The Silence blew up the TARDIS in an effort to get the Doctor to reboot the Universe...so that River would be conceived in the TARDIS, so they could have a Time Lord weapon to kill The Doctor with.

Very convoluted, and the fact that River was so poor of an assassin just illustrates how poorly that whole storyline played out. It would have been much more interesting if we actually got to have River in full on villain mode for more than one episode-make THAT a season long arc...again, the most interesting concepts in the plots get wrapped up so quickly.

'Convoluted' doesn't even begin to describe it. That's just full on nonsense of the highest degree, and it requires every character to behave without common sense and act against their own interests.

More generally, it's clear that all of this is Moffat trying to retrofit his Series Six arc into the Series Five finale, despite having not thought up any of this up at the time. The actions with the TARDIS blowing up and all of that don't fit in with the Silence MO in Series Six at all. In fact, they seem to run completely counter to everything they're doing all season long. When you consider that this was the same story that had River not recognizing Rory (while alone, mind you), I think it's pretty obvious that Moffat didn't really know what he was going to do with the exploding TARDIS plot line.

Obviously, you expect this in serialized fiction, but there needs to be enough of an idea that a suitable explanation can be given later on. The story arc starts to unravel because it requires everyone to behave so illogically, with everything about the Silence changing from week to week. I think if Moffat had at least come up with some good motivations for these guys while writing The Big Bang, things would work together a lot more cohesively.

But the 'interesting concepts' getting wrapped up quickly is a big issue with Moffat's writing over the past year. He's filled his stories with all sorts of neat ideas and concepts that you could make an entire film out of, and then he starts cutting everything like a trailer and has that stuff be completely irrelevant.

 

[maharg]

And yet you're an apologist for the very worst of the fast insane wrapups of the RTD era...

 

[EleventhDoctor]

And yet you're an apologist for the very worst of the fast insane wrapups of the RTD era...

Believe you me-I'll take Moffet over RTD anytime. Forever!

 

[BatDan]

Moffat at his worst is still better than most of the RTD episodes.

Though to be fair, the lowest points of Who are still way better than most of what's on TV today. I vastly prefer the adventures of a time-traveling alien over "NYC Police Procedural #1032" and "Laughtrack Infested Chuck Lorre Comedy"

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

And yet you're an apologist for the very worst of the fast insane wrapups of the RTD era...

The difference is that RTD's wrap ups were seeded earlier in his stories. You can tell he planned them out in advance, because he's laying out the ground rules in previous episodes.

I don't think the big finales were RTD's greatest works, but he clearly put effort into making them work as a whole and had characters behaving with clear motivations. Moffat, in contrast, is just making things up on the fly, and his stories completely fall apart when you start to think about them even a little bit.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Moffat, in contrast, is just making things up on the fly, and his stories completely fall apart when you start to think about them even a little bit.

This is not true of s5 to an absurd degree.

 

[maharg]

The difference is that RTD's wrap ups were seeded earlier in his stories. You can tell he planned them out in advance, because he's laying out the ground rules in previous episodes.

Right. So what does 'bad wolf' have to do with anything? How did it tell Rose to eat the time vortex?

I'm sorry, but no. You can say that Moffat's making it up as he goes along all you want, because it's true. But to say that there was some grand plan behind any of RTD's is just ridiculous.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

The difference is that RTD's wrap ups were seeded earlier in his stories. You can tell he planned them out in advance, because he's laying out the ground rules in previous episodes.

I don't think the big finales were RTD's greatest works, but he clearly put effort into making them work as a whole and had characters behaving with clear motivations. Moffat, in contrast, is just making things up on the fly, and his stories completely fall apart when you start to think about them even a little bit.

Where's that Seinfeld gif when I need it.

 

[Htown]

Guys, it's Kuwabara. You're wasting your time.

He doesn't do anything in Who threads but make terrible, nonsensical arguments about how RTD was amazing and Moffat is a cancer. He's quantum locked; he doesn't exist unless he's being observed whining about series 5 and 6.

 

[maharg]

Sometimes it's fun to waste time.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

Sometimes it's fun to waste time.

There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

I don't think arcs are one of Moffat's strengths, and I'm pleased that they're going to be downplayed for the next series.
I know there's a lot of die-hard Davies-haters in this thread, but I thought last year's arc was the worst since the show came back.

 

[infiniteloop]

DWM has confirmed that they will be filming in

Spoiler

Spain

, rumours say that it'll be for a

Spoiler

Wild West

episode.

 

[BatDan]

DWM has confirmed that they will be filming in

Spoiler

Spain

, rumours say that it'll be for a

Spoiler

Wild West

episode.

Oooh, that'd be fun. When was the last time we had a story in

Spoiler

the Wild West? The Gunfighters way back in the First Doctor's run

is the only one that comes to mind

 

[Ithil]

I find the "what's the Doctor's name" question to be another problem similar to Series 6' "the Doctor is dead" arc.

We know he isn't really going to die, so there's no tension. Likewise, I don't think there's a chance in hell we'll actually find out the Doctor's name. Moffat knows he can't just make himself the guy that names the Doctor, and any name would be disappointing.

So making the question "Doctor who?" seems a bit pointless, we're not going to find out the answer. It'll be whispered into someone's ear if it's mentioned at all.

 

[The Elite]

Oooh, that'd be fun. When was the last time we had a story in

Spoiler

the Wild West? The Gunfighters way back in the First Doctor's run

is the only one that comes to mind

Yeah. I'm not recalling another western episode.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

I find the "what's the Doctor's name" question to be another problem similar to Series 6' "the Doctor is dead" arc.

We know he isn't really going to die, so there's no tension. Likewise, I don't think there's a chance in hell we'll actually find out the Doctor's name. Moffat knows he can't just make himself the guy that names the Doctor, and any name would be disappointing.

So making the question "Doctor who?" seems a bit pointless, we're not going to find out the answer. It'll be whispered into someone's ear if it's mentioned at all.

Agree 100%.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Right. So what does 'bad wolf' have to do with anything? How did it tell Rose to eat the time vortex?

I'm sorry, but no. You can say that Moffat's making it up as he goes along all you want, because it's true. But to say that there was some grand plan behind any of RTD's is just ridiculous.

Bad Wolf told Rose that she could still interact with the future. It was a single message following her around everywhere she went. It's not the greatest arc in the world, but it at least works on repeated viewings. Going back to The Big Bang makes it clear how little idea Moffat had about what he was doing with his arc.

And that's fine. I don't mind there being no grand plan, because Doctor Who existed without story arcs just fine for most of its existence. The problem is that Moffat has tried to push the arcs as being big and important now, but they fall apart because he has clearly not figured out where anything is going. I'm not asking for Babylon 5 levels of plotting in terms of the arcs, but either don't build the arcs up that much, or have some sort of a plan.

Guys, it's Kuwabara. You're wasting your time.

He doesn't do anything in Who threads but make terrible, nonsensical arguments about how RTD was amazing and Moffat is a cancer. He's quantum locked; he doesn't exist unless he's being observed whining about series 5 and 6.

Hey, I also talk about how amazing most everything prior to RTD was, too. Also, I just rewatched The Girl in the Fire Place last night, and I still love it. I wish that guy was running the show right now, instead of the Moffat who has replaced him over the last two years.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Guys, it's Kuwabara. You're wasting your time.

He doesn't do anything in Who threads but make terrible, nonsensical arguments about how RTD was amazing and Moffat is a cancer. He's quantum locked; he doesn't exist unless he's being observed whining about series 5 and 6.

You forgot the part where it's all right-wing propaganda that glorifies war criminals.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

You forgot the part where it's all right-wing propaganda that glorifies war criminals.

Nostalgia-vision, now available.

 

[gabbo]

Bad Wolf told Rose that she could still interact with the future. It was a single message following her around everywhere she went. It's not the greatest arc in the world, but it at least works on repeated viewings. Going back to The Big Bang makes it clear how little idea Moffat had about what he was doing with his arc.

Doesn't Rose go back through time and write the 'Bad Wolf' messages to herself? Not that I'm attacking you or RTD, I'm simply asking for clarification.

 

[maharg]

Doesn't Rose go back through time and write the 'Bad Wolf' messages to herself? Not that I'm attacking you or RTD, I'm simply asking for clarification.

Yes, it's an inscrutable message to herself from herself. Which doesn't say anything about what she should or shouldn't do, only that there's something somewhere somewhen that is trying to get her attention. I guess she figures it may as well be herself.

Oh and then it gets retconned to be ACTUALLY about Bad Wolf Bay and the last place she could ever meet the Doctor, except of course that it wasn't even that.

Such clever planning. The breadth and depth astound me.

Also that whole "missing bees" thing. That was also brilliant. OBVIOUSLY missing bees mean planets are being moved.

Look. There are more valid hints to the true nature of Amy and the crack in the FIRST EPISODE of Season 5 than there were in any of RTD's ENTIRE SEASONS. We see the crack, we see Amy's family is missing, we see her lack of knowledge about the lack of ducks in the duck pond. They are directly relevant to the end of the season and what it all means. Bad Wolf, missing bees, "he will knock three times" were just memes with no meaning until tied together hastily and haphazardly into a doomsday scenario.