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[gabbo]

Not sure I like Oswin much (outside of her being incredibly attractive, of course). To me, her whole character basically just feels like this:

"I can out-talk/out-zing you, Doctor! Aren't I spunky? *smiles smugly*"

Too much like a self-aware Donna?

Anyways, enjoyed it. Like that the three detectives pop up, though it could easily have been Jack should Moffat ever want (I want that - especially after that kiss from the puppet). Still, I would like to see them sans Doctor for an entire episode. Story wasn't outstanding about on par with the last two, which I've also enjoyed.

It's good to have a bit of mystery about the companion, I just hope we don't get an Amy/cracks in the wall redux with Clara where the entire arc of the story becomes all about her, and less adventure/Doctor.

Liked the theme, with it's all-bass all the time take on the theme. I wanted stripped back, I got it. Wonder if it'll change any more for the season proper.

 

[Link]

This episode was weird for me and I'm not quite sure how to feel about it. There were a whole bunch of great character moments stuck in a middling/forgettable story. I am glad they didn't just make Clara an ancestor of Oswin, and I'm curious where they'll take things with her.

Moffat has jumped the shark.
He still hasn't explained who said "Silence shall fall".

Hell, he still hasn't explained the TARDIS exploding.

 

[The Technomancer]

Not sure I like Oswin much (outside of her being incredibly attractive, of course). To me, her whole character basically just feels like this:

"I can out-talk/out-zing you, Doctor! Aren't I spunky? *smiles smugly*"

I liked her a lot in Asylum. I think she felt a bit too deliberately clever/smug this time. We'll see where her character settles.

 

[APZonerunner]

Obama's AmericaMoffat's Who

You really can tell that Moffat's from a sitcom background in his characterisation, I think. The way he characterises things is similar to how most British sitcoms do. Clara, River and Amy are all major examples of that. Even Jack in The Doctor Dances. The Doctor himself is an exception - he does that quite differently.

It's very different to how RTD would characterise, coming from a more typical drama background. It's an interesting difference between the two. Neither approach is wrong... they're just different.

 

[infiniteloop]

Important context: The Great Intelligence is an old Doctor Who monster dating back to 1967, in The Web of Fear, a story where it takes over The London Underground (referenced in this episode.).

It, and the Yeti, were first in The Abominable Snowmen. Both stories are very good indeed.

 

[Incendiary]

The problem I had with it was that it was kinda boring at times, and the lack of good side-characters. The sontaran was pretty fun, but the lizard lady+watson duo was awful.

I feel like the Silurian and her Watson were kind of shoehorned in. Like the whole "hey look, it's an alien woman married to a human woman, aren't we progressive" was a great big pat on the back and nod at the audience since the fans fell over themselves over the two of them in A Good Man Goes to War.

I wish they hadn't hand-waved why Strax was suddenly alive again, because his death in A Good Man Goes to War was one of the better constructed parts of that episode, so unless there's a later payoff as to why Strax is alive I'm pretty unhappy about that whole thing too, even though Strax had some of the best lines.

 

[The Technomancer]

I feel like the Silurian and her Watson were kind of shoehorned in. Like the whole "hey look, it's an alien woman married to a human woman, aren't we progressive" was a great big pat on the back and nod at the audience since the fans fell over themselves over the two of them in A Good Man Goes to War.

I wish they hadn't hand-waved why Strax was suddenly alive again, because his death in A Good Man Goes to War was one of the better constructed parts of that episode, so unless there's a later payoff as to why Strax is alive I'm pretty unhappy about that whole thing too, even though Strax had some of the best lines.

That's exactly what it was. Those two characters exist solely to create "awesome" moments like "actually we're married" or "I'm a lizard woman from the beginning of time"

 

[gabbo]

That's exactly what it was. Those two characters exist solely to create "awesome" moments like "actually we're married" or "I'm a lizard woman from the beginning of time"

I think they could be quite useful in the right story. It's just that they haven't since Good Man

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

That's exactly what it was. Those two characters exist solely to create "awesome" moments like "actually we're married" or "I'm a lizard woman from the beginning of time"

Which is especially frustrating when the characters from the 19th century should be reacting very differently when presented with that (even leaving aside the whole 'wtf lizard lady' element. It's just a 'let's be weird and random for the hell of it' shtick, and it doesn't do the surrounding story any favors.

 

[maharg]

I feel like the Silurian and her Watson were kind of shoehorned in. Like the whole "hey look, it's an alien woman married to a human woman, aren't we progressive" was a great big pat on the back and nod at the audience since the fans fell over themselves over the two of them in A Good Man Goes to War.

I wish they hadn't hand-waved why Strax was suddenly alive again, because his death in A Good Man Goes to War was one of the better constructed parts of that episode, so unless there's a later payoff as to why Strax is alive I'm pretty unhappy about that whole thing too, even though Strax had some of the best lines.

I feel it's worth pointing out that Jack's introduction (as a Moffatt creation) wasn't really any less token: "Oh look a gay guy from the future in the RAF and zomg he kissed the doctor!" It's fair to point out that it was RTD who expanded greatly on that introduction, but I feel like pretty much all of Moffatt's characters are frontloaded like this, whether they get expanded on or not.

 

[APZonerunner]

I feel it's worth pointing out that Jack's introduction (as a Moffatt creation) wasn't really any less token: "Oh look a gay guy from the future in the RAF and zomg he kissed the doctor!" It's fair to point out that it was RTD who expanded greatly on that introduction, but I feel like pretty much all of Moffatt's characters are frontloaded like this, whether they get expanded on or not.

Like I said a few posts back, it's absolutely sitcom characterisation. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be.

 

[maharg]

Like I said a few posts back, it's absolutely sitcom characterisation. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be.

Yeah, I agree with that. I think it shows in his pacing and such too as well.

 

[FillerB]

I didn't have that much of a problem with the Silurian/Watson as I had with Strax. Silurian/Watson at least had a reason being there, that being giving some exposition for new watchers who aren't familiar with the series. Strax seemed only to serve as lame comic relief by being an idiot obsessed with violence. Something he wasn't in previous episodes.

 

[Lkr]

I feel it's worth pointing out that Jack's introduction (as a Moffatt creation) wasn't really any less token: "Oh look a gay guy from the future in the RAF and zomg he kissed the doctor!" It's fair to point out that it was RTD who expanded greatly on that introduction, but I feel like pretty much all of Moffatt's characters are frontloaded like this, whether they get expanded on or not.

I don't know if I'm just dumb or what, but it took a little while for it to click with me that Jack was gay

 

[Worthintendo]

I don't know if I'm just dumb or what, but it took a little while for it to click with me that Jack was gay

I was always under the assumption that Jack wasn't gay, Jack was everything, as long as it moved and breathed and was legal, he'd have a go at it if he could.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

I was always under the assumption that Jack wasn't gay, Jack was everything, as long as it moved and breathed and was legal, he'd have a go at it if he could.

Was about to post this. He hit on anything that moved.

 

[maharg]

I didn't have that much of a problem with the Silurian/Watson as I had with Strax. Silurian/Watson at least had a reason being there, that being giving some exposition for new watchers who aren't familiar with the series. Strax seemed only to serve as lame comic relief by being an idiot obsessed with violence. Something he wasn't in previous episodes.

He was only in one previous episode (well, a multi-parter). That said, I thought he was one of the best parts of the christmas special, personally.

And yeah, sorry, I should have said omnisexual. The point still stands, though.

 

[Raydeen]

I fell asleep 3/4 the way though.

And the girlfriend rolled her eyes and complained at yet another shoehorned in gay reference (twice in this episode).

Just a shame such handsome production values are wasted on such utter tosh.

Moffat's era of Who has turned me from a lifelong, ardent viewer to someone who hardly cares anymore, which is not what I was expecting from his tenure.

 

[Bossun]

Too much like a self-aware Donna?

This is good. Donna was the best companion (though I liked Rory a lot too), she had the most interesting relationship with the doctor and actually was doing stuff and not just following.

Now I have a companion as smart and witty as Donna and as beautiful as Amy.

Good lord.

 

[MisterNegative]

I didn't have that much of a problem with the Silurian/Watson as I had with Strax. Silurian/Watson at least had a reason being there, that being giving some exposition for new watchers who aren't familiar with the series. Strax seemed only to serve as lame comic relief by being an idiot obsessed with violence. Something he wasn't in previous episodes.

This. Sontarans as a whole have not been done with any justice i Nuwho. They were soo much more serious in old who

 

[Tizoc]

Yeah I liked the Doctor's allies in this episode the most, same with Clara she's an awesome companion.
...but man...APRIL?!?! I GOTTA WAIT TIL APRIL FOR MORE DOCTOR?!

 

[APZonerunner]

This. Sontarans as a whole have not been done with any justice i Nuwho. They were soo much more serious in old who

I don't really think this is fair. While the stories have some really unremarkable segments, I think The Sontaran Strategem/The Poison Sky places them as really good villains. Their plot there; the breeding planet stuff, the new design and the look of their ships and the haka, my favourite thing, are all great stuff.

I do have a slight worry that Strax being comic relief (funny as he is, and he genuinely is) will take the air out of them a bit the next time they're villains, mind...

 

[Backwards Marathon]

Yeah I liked the Doctor's allies in this episode the most, same with Clara she's an awesome companion.
...but man...APRIL?!?! I GOTTA WAIT TIL APRIL FOR MORE DOCTOR?!

Seriously, I thought AMC was the only one that split their seasons into two and waited months before showing the other half. Hope this trend does not continue to more shows.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

I was always under the assumption that Jack wasn't gay, Jack was everything, as long as it moved and breathed and was legal, he'd have a go at it if he could.

Since when would Jack care if it were legal?

 

[GameplayWhore]

And the girlfriend rolled her eyes and complained at yet another shoehorned in gay reference (twice in this episode).

Ha! Amusingly, I ranted a bit at the shoehorned in straight reference (yup, another girl meets the doctor and immediately wants to snog him!).

Since when would Jack care if it were legal?

At the very least, I think he values competence and some experience. That's the riff I get from him.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

Seriously, I thought AMC was the only one that split their seasons into two and waited months before showing the other half. Hope this trend does not continue to more shows.

USA has been doing it forever as well.

 

[BatDan]

USA has been doing it forever as well.

I know TNT does it as well.
South Park does it too, though I think they're the only show on Comedy Central to do that.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

This. Sontarans as a whole have not been done with any justice i Nuwho. They were soo much more serious in old who

Honestly, the original series didn't do them much justice, either. The Time Warrior and The Two Doctors are the only good Sontaran stories.

 

[Mariolee]

Yeah I liked the Doctor's allies in this episode the most, same with Clara she's an awesome companion.
...but man...APRIL?!?! I GOTTA WAIT TIL APRIL FOR MORE DOCTOR?!

Wait, seriously? I thought it would premiere in January, what the hell?

 

[infiniteloop]

Nope, April.

 

[Tizoc]

One other thing; I am 50-50 about the new TARDIS interior, but I'll chunk that up to the Doctor's recent mood before meeting Clara.
Hopefully it'll be brightful and have lots of rooms in future episodes.

 

[MisterNegative]

I don't really think this is fair. While the stories have some really unremarkable segments, I think The Sontaran Strategem/The Poison Sky places them as really good villains. Their plot there; the breeding planet stuff, the new design and the look of their ships and the haka, my favourite thing, are all great stuff.

I do have a slight worry that Strax being comic relief (funny as he is, and he genuinely is) will take the air out of them a bit the next time they're villains, mind...

The plot and design was great there, I admit. However I think Sontarans losing to UNIT once they had switched to copper bullets made no sense. They had lasers :/

We're talking about a race that almost invaded gallifrey, with soldiers capable of repairing thier spaceships with scraps from the medieval era. They have fallen along way.


Not that it really matters though, in the big scheme of things.

 

[GameplayWhore]

One other thing; I am 50-50 about the new TARDIS interior, but I'll chunk that up to the Doctor's recent mood before meeting Clara.
Hopefully it'll be brightful and have lots of rooms in future episodes.

I think I like it. It looks more TARDISey and less like an organic makeshift … thing.

Nope, April.

Agreed, the next companion should be a reporter from the '90s who wears a yellow jumpsuit. Considering the going trend in companions this is a completely reasonable path to take.

 

[Anoregon]

Add me to the "holy fuck, april?!" camp. I thought the season was continuing relatively shortly after the christmas special. Oh well.

 

[Empty]

i thought the christmas episode was okay. wasn't totally cheesy like it could have been. i like the concept of oswin's character being someone who dies a lot but a lot of the dialogue between her and the doctor was insufferable smug and clever. loved the imagery of the staircase leading upwards to the clouds and the sherlock scene. plot was a bit half-baked but okay, lizard woman couple was terrible, other stupid guy whose name i've forgotten was hilarious. new credits ruled.

 

[BatDan]

Sadly, it's always been tradition to wait four months after the Christmas special for the new episodes to start. Annoying I know...
This year was bad though since we had to wait 8-9 months for the new episodes after the special.

 

[GameplayWhore]

i thought the christmas episode was okay. wasn't totally cheesy like it could have been. i like the concept of oswin's character being someone who dies a lot but a lot of the dialogue between her and the doctor was insufferable smug and clever. loved the imagery of the staircase leading upwards to the clouds and the sherlock scene. plot was a bit half-baked but okay, lizard woman couple was terrible, other stupid guy whose name i've forgotten was hilarious. new credits ruled.

Strax is pretty great. I think he'd be just as fun but a lot better of a character, though, if they're a bit more careful at toeing the line between blind cultural militarism and complete inability to understand situations around him. The occasional "Do not attempt to escape or you will be obliterated. May I take your coat?" leaves me highly amused, but I equally like seeing moments like the one where he analyzes the defensive stance of the snowmen.

Sadly, it's always been tradition to wait four months after the Christmas special for the new episodes to start. Annoying I know...
This year was bad though since we had to wait 8-9 months for the new episodes after the special.

You guys have already forgotten the old days where we got the episodes in more or less one block and then had to wait for nearly an entire year of nothing, every year. This way is better.

That said, I need to check up on when Red Dwarf's comes back again. I enjoyed this last season more than I had expected to overall.

 

[Mariolee]

Thank God I'll have new episodes of Community, Psych, and Arrested Development to tide me over til then.

 

[forgeforsaken]

I have a feeling Oswin is going to end up something like Scaroth (though not alien I just mean time fragmented.)

 

[GameplayWhore]

I have a feeling Oswin is going to end up something like Scaroth (though not alien I just mean time fragmented.)

That was my favourite speculation, posted also a page or two back. It made me think about something, too…

It seems like a bunch of alien antagonists are directly responsible for either the creation or the development of the Human civilization.

The Silence have been present since Humanity's beginning, molding their development.

Scaroth, a Jagaroth who crashed on Earth hundreds of millions of years ago, accidentally created life on the planet and then molded Humanity's development at several points in history (giving them the secret of fire and astronomy, for instances).

The Racnoss Empress triggered the creation of the Earth in order to become its core. That's fairly crucial to Humanity's development.

The Monk, a Gallifreyan, was responsible for the creation of Stonehenge (this creation may have also been assisted in some way by the Alliance… er, if they ever existed in the first place!). He also influenced Leonardo da Vinci, who himself was a strong influence on the progression of Western civilization.



How many other "bad guys" had the side effect of actually making us what we are today? Anybody got more for the list?

Side note: I'm surprised that the Silence and Scaroth never butted heads. Or maybe they did. But wouldn't they want to stop his plan of unmaking Humanity?


edit: I also vaguely recall an antagonist that "tested" humanity every few years and had finally found it wanting (thus eligible for destruction) when the Doctor coincidentally popped by. Which ep was that? (editedit: I might be thinking of the Dæmons)

edit: I thought that Fenric might qualify, but it looks like he largely did inconsequential things.

edit: Ah, the Fendahl molded humanity to fit their needs, as well. Ye gods, it's too bad we never got a big throwdown between all these races considering that they were pretty much at odds in intent for millions of years on the planet!

 

[gabbo]

I think I like it. It looks more TARDISey and less like an organic makeshift … thing.

That staircase... oh how I want to see where that staircase leads.
Just one episode roaming the TARDIS interior, please!

 

[The Real Abed]

That staircase... oh how I want to see where that staircase leads.
Just one episode roaming the TARDIS interior, please!

I think this might be what you are waiting for. <--SPOILER MAYBE POSSIBLY OKAY?

 

[Ithil]

I don't know if I'm just dumb or what, but it took a little while for it to click with me that Jack was gay

I don't know how you could think he was gay. Literally his first line/scene in the series is him checking out Rose's behind. He was a "do anything" kind of guy.

Anyway, I don't know what the worry is with Clara now being a modern era girl, by the end of her first episode she'll remember her time as a future girl and as a Victorian age girl, she's not going to be a fish out of water modern girl the same as Amy/Rose/Martha/etc.

Also, the reaction is mixed, but for me, Strax cracked me up. Something about his earnest voice kept making his lines hilarious to me. The Silurian and her ladyfriend do nothing for me. I don't really like the new series design for the Silurians anyway.

 

[Harlock]

Oswin is amazing. She and Doctor already kissed, so she is not your lost granddaughter, I think. I've been watching the first Doctor Who series, and after the original granddaughter left, they never explain if she still alive.

 

[APZonerunner]

Oswin is amazing. She and Doctor already kissed, so she is not your lost granddaughter, I think. I've been watching the first Doctor Who series, and after the original granddaughter left, they never explain if she still alive.

Expanded universe after the show went off the air indicates she went back to Gallifrey eventually. If they stick with that story, she burned with the rest of them in the war.

 

[KibblesBits]

Expanded universe after the show went off the air indicates she went back to Gallifrey eventually. If they stick with that story, she burned with the rest of them in the war.

It doesn't make sense for Susan to ever go back to Gallifrey.

 

[Box of Bunnies]

You guys have already forgotten the old days where we got the episodes in more or less one block and then had to wait for nearly an entire year of nothing, every year. This way is better.

Yes, getting half a series a year is much better than getting the whole series.

 

[acheron_xl]

On one hand, Clara is great. On the other hand, she almost seems a little too great. I worry she could play right into many of Moffat's most egregious excesses.

 

[gabbo]

Expanded universe after the show went off the air indicates she went back to Gallifrey eventually. If they stick with that story, she burned with the rest of them in the war.

Like all things from NuWho season 2 onward, if it needs to be done for a story, it'll be timey wimey'd into or out of existence without much thought for overall implications

 

[Quick]

Vastra and Jenny were a mixed bag in terms of involvement, but weren't terrible. Vastra had some substance in her role later on, while Jenny's purpose was for the one scene throwing the force field grenade. I think both could work out great if given the right story.

Strax was awesome in this because his role is simply for comedy. He works because he was entirely in your face, and the Doctor would always call him out on it, then make fun of him.

Will they all be back at some point during the season?