SteveWinwood
Member
Source engine update.
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Dota 2 Beta: INHOUSE LEAGUE Season 1!! FREE HATS
- Thread starter Artanisix
- Start date
Source engine update.
If someone wants to make me an admin in the group, I'll help as much as I can; I just work and travel a lot.
PillowKnight
Member
You realize I just lost -35 ELO from one game...right?
There is no correlation between # of wins, + elo, and swindling.
A lot of games are purely about the players involved, those teams could play each other 10 times and Radiant would win every single game.
This just in: Radiant is imba. News as Ikuu theorycrafts! Tune in!
PillowKnight
Member
Pretty much, the teams in that game could've played 100 times and radiant would in 99 of them. That's why it's a swindle. Out of all the games i've played only about five of them have not been one sided.
Takamura-San
Member
Eh we have strikingly different opinions then. Duh nearly every Dota tmm, practice lobby, midwars, whatever have you will end up being one sided as one team pulls ahead in early, mid, or even late game and starts to win team fights. What I take issue with is boiling every game down to player X skill level. It's my opinion, but I think that thinking is dead wrong. Over half of gaf players are WILDLY inconsistent, hell I'm probably one of the most inconsistent players and like I outlined earlier--there are many many factors that go into every game, it's kinda absurd to point it down to one variable.
I look at it as a football or basketball game, sure maybe one team has better players (one team will always have better players unless we make clones of each other), but the other team just has the better game from simply playing better or strategically having a better game.
It's unfortunate that most of pillow's games have been perceived swindles, I can easily say 80+% of my games were fairly even player wise. Hell, the games that I THOUGHT were super even player skill wise; my side often ended up losing something like 30-1. That one game I captained against pro, the skill levels were pretty balanced but he completely outdrafted me. Big swindles procarbine.
I feel that the majority of my games have been close to even player-skill-wise. And I agree with Anbokr, I think player draft is only half the battle and a lot of people underestimate the importance of outdrafting and outlaning your opponent. Or hell, even having better leadership and direction in a game.
PillowKnight
Member
When there is enough of a skill gap, the only variable that really matters is player skill. I'm willing to bet that 5 high skill level players could beat 5 mid skill level players even if the 5 mid skill players get to pick the enemy heroes.
The strategy aspect of the game only comes into play when you have teams of similar skill level.
Are you sure that you have an accurate understanding of everyone's skill level? I've played in a shitton of IHL games and I doubt that I have a reliable measurement of even half of the IHL players.
So you're saying that you are getting out-drafted/out-captained/out-played more than 50% of the time? Even though few people on gaf have ever done anything like that? I don't buy it.
how could you get Barathrum without me??? RUDE
Bro i'm awesome.
But on a serious note, while the player draft does matter, I feel that most captains who have been playing enough games can sort of gouge the skill levels of their players. Like I can probably make a list of what my priority players to draft are, my medium tier players, and the wtfcanihavepassivebotinstead list. That being said, there are some players where if I pick them up, I'll have to cater to them certain heroes or avoid ones. (Shoutout to Yuuka DS, Neki PoTM/Lycan, tswift anythingbutdirgebeastmasterbane)
That being said, there have been games where even though the player skill has been skewed somewhat to one side, the other pulls through ala better picks/play (although it is rare, don't just assume it doesn't exist) and have pulled out upset victories to the chagrin of certain players dubbed ELOPinatas. Honestly, while some players have a much bigger impact on the game then others, it is inevitably the captain (or whoever is backseat captaining) and the coordination of the team ingame that matter, not so much the draft.
Seeing as I'm not the captain in most of my games, and that I really don't help captains outside of a little input or take the leadership role when I'm not the captain, yeah, I feel confident saying that my captain (and me as well) has been out-drafted / out-laned / out-leadershipped in most of my games. I've lost most of my games. Another thing that people don't consider is player synergy, and this directly impacts your team's coordination; I'm pretty sure I've lost almost all of my games played with Azuki. The way I like to play just doesn't work well with the way he likes to play. Great guy, skillful player, but we don't mesh well. Doctor Grakl, pretty new player, but I find him as a reliable support pick and we've won a lot of games together.
Not sure what this even means. My point is, dota 2 games aren't like a sports game's simulator. You don't plug in player X who has skill level Y against Player A with skill level B and then get a computed win/loss result. Dota is a complex game where hundreds of factors affect every game, including, but not limited to, player skill. Also, I've never seen a game with 5 high tier players vs 5 mid tier players as you said, but of course; if a game like that occurred, the 5 high tier are heavily favored.
I don't think there is a single person in here that has an accurate understanding. Maybe one or two people that have a better idea than most at best.
Admittedly I haven't watch many games lately, but of the ones I have seen, I'd say at least half of them seem like they're over after the drafts.
Takamura-San
Member
Well isn't that the point of the ELO system.
To reduce the amount of swindles.
I may be able to play a game tonight. It seems that I lost my last place on the ELO chart.
That needs to be fixed.
To reduce the amount of swindles.
I may be able to play a game tonight. It seems that I lost my last place on the ELO chart.
That needs to be fixed.
The main problem is the ELO numbers of players aren't actually being used to match them up, it's mostly player judgement and guesswork.
Na, after 20+ games of ihl, I pretty much have an idea of where people are. Like 109 said, you can kinda split people into tiers at this point, as long as they have played more than 3 games.
Elo and drafting obviously aren't working guys. I suggest we clone each other then play our clones for fair games and use the perfect true skill system for perfect balance and a perfect ihl ladder that everyone is perfectly happy with. Also I propose we introduce a simulator that saves us 30 minutes of already decided games so we can maximize our play time. Delirium can you program this system? I'll provide you with a tier list and you can just program it so if 3 high tier play against 2 high tier the former will auto win. There may be some complications when the bot encounters a team consisting of multiple tiers, but that rarely happens since every game will be one sided anyway; BUT JUST IN CASE, I'd like you to program a conscious AI to decide these situations plz.
Takamura-San
Member
#Challenge Everything....
If you have a dev.dota2.com account, please post in this thread. It's an older thread that talks about allowing hosts to kick spectators. If you've played in the inhouses, I'm sure you're aware of the problem with specs afking / alt-tabbing and preventing us from starting our games 
Makes no sense that this isn't in yet.
Makes no sense that this isn't in yet.Doesn't look like you do with some of your predictions on how certain games should go.
Sorry I'm not nostradomus. Hate to break it to you, but neither are you. Although when you sit in the jungle and moan about "coordination", it certainly makes it easier to predict said game's direction . I unfortunately do not possess this magical crystal ball that decides games before they are even played; I'll ask to borrow it from pillowknight though.
. I unfortunately do not possess this magical crystal ball that decides games before they are even played; I'll ask to borrow it from pillowknight though.Freakinchair
Member
Very High skilled players win 100% of the time.
Smells like troll in here.
Na it's just being really sarcastic to get a point across that you can pick out flaws in any system, but without suggesting fixes, that nagging is useless (in this case I suggested the "perfect" system, the only way to 100% avoid "swindles"). Instead of moaning about swindles for a few pages, point out specific swindles, make your point on why you think they were outrageously unfair and point out how they can be prevented, or suggest some fixes or alternate systems.
PillowKnight
Member
The hon IHL2 system was way better than the current system. Because it meant that you had teams balanced on general skill level(As well as available participants allowed). 3 High vs 2 high 1 mid is an acceptable skill difference, I don't think those sorts of games are decided before they begin.
The current IHL system has no caps on the types of teams that can play each other. In HON IHL2 you would never get 3~4 exp players+1mid player vs 1 exp player and 3mid 1 low, which has actually happened plenty of times with this IHL system. The way this IHL is run basically ignored all the things that were wrong with HONIHL2, heck, HONIHL1 was better.
You joke, but with the current teams that are being picked I can pick the team who's going to win just by looking at the players much more often than I should be able to.Sorry I'm not nostradomus. Hate to break it to you, but neither are you. Although when you sit in the jungle and moan about "coordination", it certainly makes it easier to predict said game's direction
You know, I honestly liked the tier system in HoN IHL 2 (we couldn't implement this right away anyway as we didn't know half of the non-mumble gaf peeps' skill levels), but you're also forgetting we had a shit ton of complainers and pages of discussion on balance using that as well. In fact, kag even said in the HoN season 2 IHL thread (this was with tiers):
I remember pages and pages of guesong + tomat complaints (and I'm sure others), tier swindling complaints, "why do we HAVE to draft ____" complaints. It seems like everytime we move on to a new system, someone always brings up that our past one was better (even though when the past one was current, that got complaints). From manual balancing ----> captains + tier restrictions ---> simply captains. You just can't eliminate the balance whining, in a highly competitive game like DOTA/HoN or any league with a ladder, there will ALWAYS be balance cries.
Anywho, I'm all for tiers in season 2 (or this one if the idea is popular) as long as most of us agree on a few people (I guess pro, haly, milk would be best as they are running the IHL and are generally respected) to tierify everyone with at least a few games played and then letting new people self place themselves unless it becomes obvious to most people that they need to be moved.
But don't worry, tiers will still result in tears.
I remember pages and pages of guesong + tomat complaints (and I'm sure others), tier swindling complaints, "why do we HAVE to draft ____" complaints. It seems like everytime we move on to a new system, someone always brings up that our past one was better (even though when the past one was current, that got complaints). From manual balancing ----> captains + tier restrictions ---> simply captains. You just can't eliminate the balance whining, in a highly competitive game like DOTA/HoN or any league with a ladder, there will ALWAYS be balance cries.
Anywho, I'm all for tiers in season 2 (or this one if the idea is popular) as long as most of us agree on a few people (I guess pro, haly, milk would be best as they are running the IHL and are generally respected) to tierify everyone with at least a few games played and then letting new people self place themselves unless it becomes obvious to most people that they need to be moved.
But don't worry, tiers will still result in tears
.PillowKnight
Member
People complained and rightfully so, HONIHL2 had a lot of things wrong with it. DOTA2 IHL has the same problems HONIHL2 had but with added shit on top of it. The best system is just ranking people based on ELO but until someone can get that up and running a better tuned tier system works best.You know, I honestly liked the tier system in HoN IHL 2 (we couldn't implement this right away anyway as we didn't know half of the non-mumble gaf peeps' skill levels), but you're also forgetting we had a shit ton of complainers and pages of discussion on balance using that as well. In fact, kag even said (this was with tiers):
I remember pages and pages of guesong + tomat complaints (and I'm sure others), tier swindling complaints, "why do we HAVE to draft ____" complaints
Anywho, I'm all for tiers in season 2 (or this one if the idea is popular) as long as most of us agree on a few people (I guess pro, haly, milk would be best as they are running the IHL and are generally respected) to tierify everyone with at least a few games played and then letting new people self place themselves unless it becomes obvious to most people that they need to be moved.
But don't worry, tiers will still result in tears
Also, in HONIHL2 people would draft and actually be open to swapping out people between teams to help even them out, the few times i've made these types of calls in the DOTAIHL people just seem to ignore it and continue on to their inevitable stomp.
Obviously, if i'm the only person who dislikes the current system keep it as is. But IMO the current games that are happening aren't quite worth the 20+ minutes of setup time/afking in a lobby.
yo dont hate
just because one can't think of something better at the time doesnt mean we shouldnt speak about what we believe is wrong
u cant just silence me like that dawg, you dig mrgunnarz?
PillowKnight
Member
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The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I am looking forward to when Valve gets through the current Dota 1 heroes seeing what new heroes they'll create. Should be interesting now that they're not limited to the WC3 engine.
Ditto.
I might be new and need to pull more weight but maybe I can be a GAF IHL good luck charm.
2 IHL games, 2 wins!
thats cuz i gankd dat lane like 500x cuz milk let me get evry rune ezzzz.
Na, but on a serious note, people really underestimate sf with an early lead. They could do nothing after the first 10 minutes because I could 3 shot veno, lesh, and even tide (and I had a bkb so they could do nothing back). By 20-30 minutes, weaver and sb also 3 shot them. So it's a snowball.
Na, but on a serious note, people really underestimate sf with an early lead. They could do nothing after the first 10 minutes because I could 3 shot veno, lesh, and even tide (and I had a bkb so they could do nothing back). By 20-30 minutes, weaver and sb also 3 shot them. So it's a snowball.
Gangnam Style breaks anyone :3
