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Dota 2 |OT11| $400 of Support and Passion

shira

shira

Member
Kard8p3 said:
holy fuck if i have to wait 3 extra hours for MGSV

https://twitter.com/PlayStation/status/638549365682929664
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Hylian7 said:
http://gaming.youtube.com/hyliansevendota/live

Streaming!
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fail.gif
 
S

SilentRacoon

Member
Hylian7 said:
whynotboth.gif

Seriously I think ES will get a slap on the wrist as far as supports go. Storm's going to get a nerf, I don't think anyone in here disagrees with that. I know he'll get one, I fully expect him to. I don't know why people seem to think I don't think he needs one, as he totally does.

ES was everywhere in TI5 and did quite well. I imagine Winter Wyvern will also get a nerf too, even though she isn't a super popular pub support.
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I agree, I was half snarky since it seems to me that you focus the nerf discussion on heroes you don't actually play or at least that's the impression I get :p

WW is crazy OP when she can disable a BKB hero even if he isn't the main target of Winter Curse, ES in the other hand is kind of balanced by the fact that he requires a bit more of farm before his game is on.
 
D

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Download will be done in ~2 minutes. US servers kept only giving me 2MB/s, swapped to Ireland and got a steady 15 MB/s
 
H

Hylian7

Member
SilentRacoon said:
I agree, I was half snarky since it seems to me that you focus the nerf discussion on heroes you don't actually play or at least that's the impression I get :p

WW is crazy OP when she can disable a BKB hero even if he isn't the main target of Winter Curse, ES in the other hand is kind of balanced by the fact that he requires a bit more of farm before his game is on.
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Fair enough, but I mean don't most people get the inkling something needs a nerf when it seems unfair that they lose to it? Not saying that means everything you think you unfairly lost to needs a nerf, but I mean if there is a legitimate case there, then things get nerfs.

I still think ES at least deserves a slap on the wrist. He's a great roaming support and he can still get a slap on the wrist without losing that, I just think that he should have some kind of weakness really, other than "He needs farm". Maybe reduce Aftershocks AoE? I couldn't tell you how many times I try to kill an Earthshaker after my BKB ran out and it's STUN STUN STUN STUN, so frustrating. I'm not sure where the nerf should be though.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Hylian7 said:
I mean don't most people get the inkling something needs a nerf when it seems unfair that they lose to it?
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There is a vast gulf between "seems unfair" and "actually unfair".

While you are right in that most people get the feeling something needs a nerf because it they lost to it, most people are also bad and couldn't balance Checkers if their life depended on it.
 
H

Hylian7

Member
Haly said:
There is a vast gulf between "seems unfair" and "actually unfair".

While you are right in that most people get the feeling something needs a nerf because it they lost to it, most people are also bad and couldn't balance Checkers properly.
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Absolutely, which was the point I made. I see something I think that seems unfair and can't really come up with a reasonable way to beat it, and one of the first conclusions I would jump to is "X needs a nerf". With more examination, maybe I'm right, maybe not.

Also are you trying to say I'm bad or something here or am I misunderstanding?

Edit: I think it's also worth mentioning that IceFrog may nerf a hero that isn't necessarily OP, but still picked a ton as a way to say "I'm tired of that hero, stop picking him" An example of this might be when SB and PL were nerfed a few years back (old PL, not his current skill set) mainly because they were everywhere in pubs, not really seen at all in the pro scene. Froggy probably has a ton of interesting metrics on these things that we don't even know about.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I'm saying you have a very poor instinct for balance.

This...
Hylian7 said:
one of the first conclusions I would jump to is "X needs a nerf".
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...is one of the worst attitudes in gaming communities and it's awful wherever it pops up. Whether it's this game or WoW or League or Hearthstone or Street Fighter, whatever. It basically boils down to "wah, I lost to something, please nerf it!"

Here's an example of what I would consider a well reasoned call for a nerf.

The average skill level of the player base is increasing overtime. When once roaming used to be a fringe strategy you only encountered in the upper echelons of Dota, the dissemination of professional strategies through live-streamed tournaments means even average players (~2.5-3k) now have some concept of roaming.

Combined with the utter domination of Leshrac and Lina, two fashionable INT carries who strongly benefit from a setup for their disable, Earthshaker has quickly become one of the best picks for support in both mid-high tier ranked and the comp scene. Icefrog is not likely to ignore Leshrac and Lina in 6.85. Their popularity and strength is self evident from the results of TI5, and once they are nerfed ES will likely also experience a dip in popularity, that is, if the meta shifts away from chain-stunning INT carries.

Beyond that, he might also get a reduction to Fissure path-blocking duration because it is currently a death sentence when combined with another stun. This will be true so long as delayed stuns exist, so Icefrog might as well weaken Earthshaker as an enabler and shift his power to other parts of his kit, like scoring sick-nasty hypercrits on hapless squishies.
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H

Hylian7

Member
Haly said:
I'm saying you have a very poor instinct for balance.

This...

...is the attitude of most gaming communities and it's awful wherever it pops up. Whether it's this game or WoW or League or Hearthstone or Street Fighter, whatever.

Here's an example of what I would consider a well reasoned call for a nerf.
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Fair enough, I see what you mean. I mean I would say a lot of us in here have poor instinct for balance, it's fairly common.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
The fact that you think ES has no weaknesses and you have the gall to call for his nerf when you never even mention Storm's current problems (especially with regards to Bloodstone, itself a problematic item that will likely get tweaked because of how binary it is) just tells me how ludicrously biased you are.

His Jakiro-esque cast times?
No more Fissure homing targeting? (Nyx suffered from this change as well)
Losing the BKB piercing on Echo Slam?
One of the lowest mana pools in the game for a caster?

Even, and no one actually does this because it's fucking stupid, if he leads with Enchant Totem, that's still 6.75 seconds worth of stuns with massive gaps in between that he can only pull off with a Blink dagger and if his opponents have the reflexes of a baby. Let's compare with Lion:

2.52 seconds from Earth Spike, targeted, AoE, homing.
4 seconds from Hex, targeted.

Oh look, two chainable targeted ranged disables with no gaps in between lasting 6+ seconds? Unfair as fuck, right? Needs a slap on the wrist? This is on a 12 second cooldown, by the way, versus ES's 15 seconds on Fissure flat.

He gets a 450 damage nuke at level 6 as well! Absolutely disgusting.
 
1

1.09

Low Tier
one time i was fighting axe and he did like 600 physical damage in 1 second with no items like wtf lol nerf plz
 
H

Hylian7

Member
Haly said:
The fact that you think ES has no weaknesses and you have the gall to call for his nerf when you never even mention Storm's current problems (especially with regards to Bloodstone, itself a problematic item that will likely get tweaked because of how binary it is) just tells me how ludicrously biased you are.

His Jakiro-esque cast times?
No more Fissure homing targeting? (Nyx suffered from this change as well)
Losing the BKB piercing on Echo Slam?
One of the lowest mana pools in the game for a caster?

Even, and no one actually does this because it's fucking stupid, if he leads with Enchant Totem, that's still 6.75 seconds worth of stuns with massive gaps in between that he can only pull off with a Blink dagger and if his opponents have the reflexes of a baby. Let's compare with Lion:

2.52 seconds from Earth Spike, targeted, AoE, homing.
4 seconds from Hex, targeted.

Oh look, two chainable targeted ranged disables with no gaps in between lasting 6+ seconds? Unfair as fuck, right? Needs a slap on the wrist? This is on a 12 second cooldown, by the way, versus ES's 15 seconds on Fissure flat.

He gets a 450 damage nuke at level 6 as well! Absolutely disgusting.
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I understand your point. I said that stuff was frustrating, not necessarily OP, and I think the thing you quoted in an earlier post about the Fissure duration being reduced is more logical. The chain stun thing was just an observation, and I never disguised the fact that I was biased about that in the first place.

Again, Storm is totally OP right now, and I have never said he wasn't. He's up there in the "Needs a nerf list" right next to Leshrac in my book. As to how they could nerf Storm? I'm not quite sure, I think potentially making the initial mana cost of zip higher, or making the mana it drains per unit higher, or maybe even both. Raising Remnant Mana cost wouldn't be a bad idea either.

I think that something will happen to stacking with mid in general, which will also affect Storm in particular. Not sure how they would go about a stacking nerf, but it would be something.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I see a lot of Earthshakers in your lost games so I think that's what prompted this inane outburst.

Lina + Earthshaker, no surprise there.
Leshrac + Earthshaker, wow it's like that's a good combo or something.
DK + Earthshaker, more chain stun combos, shock!

You were Storm Spirit in all 3 of these games so I assume you were getting nerded the fuck out in mid. This is what happens when you pick Storm in Ranked. People assume you're some kind of hotshot pubstar and will dedicate extra resources to hunting you down. I know this because that's what I do. When I duo queue with my friend or stack with the pinoys, I will always zero in on nerd picks and make their life a living hell, because that's always my best shot at winning.

Welcome to 4k, Hylian. It's what you always wanted. and now you have to learn to predict and deal with roams with or without your team. Don't be too discouraged, it happens to everyone, especially right after TI season.
 
M

Mordeccai

Member
About damn time I had a fun game.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1761200204

Lanes were fucked from the get go. Ursa wants mid, stands at bounty rune and just gets rekt, so lich says fuck you and takes over mid lane. So me (omni) and slardar top, CK and Ursa bot.

For some reason slardar is not last hitting the first few minutes so I go ahead and take farm and begin the roaming at about 8 or 9 minutes. Lich dominates zeus in the mid lane
happytears.gif


Lich and I proceed to absolutely clean house with the other team. I am cackling like a mad man with my 14 minute arcanes, soul ring, mek, yelling at my team to start diving T2's with my ulti.

I have Vivaldi's L'inverno playing in the background https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC-USAB530A ; shit was euphoric as hell

omni most last hits in the game, get rekt fools
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Icefrog is going to nerf Bloodstone, because it's too polarized right now. Either it's super-core like for Leshrac or Storm or totally useless.

Even Lina is starting to build Bloodstone because it's so amazing for that narrow range of mid caster carries.
 
I

inkls

Member
Haly said:
Icefrog is going to nerf Bloodstone, because it's too polarized right now. Either it's super-core like for Leshrac or Storm or totally useless.

Even Lina is starting to build Bloodstone because it's so amazing for that narrow range of mid caster carries.
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rip timber even more
 
H

Hylian7

Member
Haly said:
I see a lot of Earthshakers in your lost games so I think that's what prompted this inane outburst.

Lina + Earthshaker, no surprise there.
Leshrac + Earthshaker, wow it's like that's a good combo or something.
DK + Earthshaker, more chain stun combos, shock!

You were Storm Spirit in all 3 of these games so I assume you were getting nerded the fuck out in mid. This is what happens when you pick Storm in Ranked. People assume you're some kind of hotshot pubstar and will dedicate extra resources to hunting you down. I know this because that's what I do. When I duo queue with my friend or stack with the pinoys, I will always zero in on nerd picks and make their life a living hell, because that's always my best shot at winning.

Welcome to 4k, Hylian. It's what you always wanted. and now you have to learn to predict and deal with roams with or without your team. Don't be too discouraged, it happens to everyone, especially right after TI season.
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I can understand that, and it's certainly a skill I'm trying to improve on, predicting roams like you said. I generally see three (with an unspoken fourth I guess) types of games where that happens.

1. They roam and I get ganked, team understands, helps me catch up by stacks, ganks, wards, or whatever else is applicable. These are great.
2. They roam and I get ganked, team says "gg report mid" while I ask them for help, they blame me for the state of the game while losing their own lanes too.
3. They roam and I get ganked, team doesn't react either way, their lanes aren't going well either, they don't react or pull together to do anything to turn this around.
(The unspoken fourth) 4. I get ganked, they screw it up, I kill one or more of them and live. These are the best but obviously just dumb luck really.

The first game you linked I don't remember very well specifically, but you're probably right about it.

The second game was frustrating because we were a 5-stack, and we just had no teamplay going through the whole game. All 3 lanes lost, nobody was helping anybody out, our courier was walking at 6 minutes. Just a disaster all around.

The third one, was kind of frustrating and I also wasn't playing too well in general that game. I don't really have a problem with DK, I mean he sits there mid and farms, he won't solo kill anyone, but he won't die either. The Jugg's item build was....not good, and that was also a major contributing factor, but I'm not going to focus on that one.

Anyway I do get your point though, and it's something I'm trying to get better at dealing with. Like people have been saying I end up stacking camps more often now.

I do have a few questions about this though.

1. What if you have something like a jungle SK, and you are getting roamed on and need to stack camps? If you ask him to leave you some and he doesn't, do you just take them anyway or what? Stacking is pretty much off the table if he's constantly taking them already.
2. What is best in those situations where you have a team unwilling to help you? Just stacking jungle and relying on that? I usually do that, and have had plenty of games that started like that where I did that, caught up, and was able to have an impact. This was one such example: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1761037360

Red UFO said:
If I have to read the term "slap on the wrist" one more time I'm going to hurt myself.
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Would say you would give yourself a...slap on the wrist?
 
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