Procarbine
Forever Platinum
Interesting that you guys seem to have realized that seeker's utility was his strength. 6.79 made this weaker against single targets, qq.
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Dota 2 |OT2| Ellen Pudge starring in Beyond Two Throws
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SteveWinwood
Member
All you need to counter her is detection, stuns, and probably the jump on her which SHOCKING is how you handle all invis.
Exactly,
Hell, Empire is playing now, lets say brood is on mouz, to counter her they have: bat with firefly/lasso/napalm/flamebreak. Doom with Doom and maybe the aoe of scorched earth, troll can't do much but can throw his axes, rubick can lift her up, zap her and steal webs and go in there too and lesh can stun her.
Pretty much all of them can do something when she's hidden in trees. And Brood is not even on the other team.
She's still super good, and it adds another level of annoyance besides the invis but still, I don't think it will matter that much for the pro's.
Slardar and Bounty definitely don't hard counter her, Aui 2000 used to rush Manta on dignitas. With the movement speed from the yasha+webs and the dispel from the active you're really hard to gank already. Now think if you're bottom radiant t3, she can place two webs and run from high ground to the hill on top of the hard camp. Then she can run off the map too, you don't have to just stay in trees.
Right now i feel the webs are incredibly strong, the hero being incredibly strong is another question entirely.
and then she moves up a cliff at 522 MS? New brood is basically unkillable unless she wants to be killed. Her teamfight/aoe presence weaknesses remain, but this isn't a PL "l2dust situation." This is now a hero that can have evasion, max MS, invis, and cliff/tree walking. That's by no means "easy to kill." You can argue if she's OP or not, but right now she is one of the strongest survivability heroes in the game, most definitely one of the hardest to kill if not the hardest. Lycan is hard to kill with his 16s of 522 ms and slow immunity, right? Well imagine if he had invis, cliffwalking, and hp regen for those 16s. This is Broodmother 100% of the time with the web radius buff. Not even close to "easy to kill." Her survivability isn't even debatable. Her level of "OPness" is, however.
Honestly, I think she needs one change: no cliffwalking. Just tree walking. My 2 cents. Brood hiding in ancient or weird terrain spots that no one can access is pretty dumb.
New Huskar probably would have been fine in CM with just the ethereal change. Instead he got his balls chopped off. Warlock and Spiritbreaker both also got nerfed 100% because of pubs. Recently Icefrog has been shifting his balance style, and I think with dota 2 he's putting more of a focus on pub games as well as competitive. Heroes that are broken in pubs are getting neutered regardless of competitive viability.
I disagree.
She is not immune to slows and stuns in her web. She isn't even particularly tanky. Storm Spirit, Nyx, Spiritbreaker, Bounty, Kunkka with shadowblade, Batrider with blink... I'm in class right now but these are some very good responses to Brood mama. You definitely have to make your gangs against her count, but does that make her unfair? A crippled Brood can't even go one on one with another carry.
How do you slow/stun a hero that can get into trees, up a cliff, or into obstructed terrain in the blink of an eye? Yeah, it's possible. But the kill window is so small and requires far too much effort IMO.
Interesting but seems silly to have two boots, isn't it just a waste of the 450gold movement speed you can't use? Also how do two stout shields stack? I'm pretty new so I don't really know how all that works.
My idea for the new axe was vanguard, mech, treads, force staff (for mana, more tanky, and initiation), thorn mail and like eventually heart or AC or something. Would be really great vs melee or physical damage heavy teams.
SteveWinwood
Member
It's no different than a spectre and a batrider other than an invis which is a lrn 2 dust. You kill them through stuns and getting the jump on them. If you're letting her run up that cliff you didn't stun quick enough or you let her see you sneak up on her. If she ends up playing super defensively, staying in trees and letting the spiders do all the work then you might have to counter pick with a tree destroyer or just take all the free gold she just gave you with her spiders.
I haven't seen it enough but I still don't think she'll be that hard to kill.
I agree with this. There is no way she is getting re-instated into CM again without getting changes.
It's when people claimed new Huskar was broke but then others said "no guys he has counters!" and now he is nerfed a hell of a lot still not in CM. They had to change a system item mechanic to make him fair. Of course people hadn't discovered Ghost Scepter bull shit yet but BM is the same, people haven't discovered the full extent of the way they can exploit this new BM. And there will be exploits.
Spectre is limited by a moderately long cooldown and 12s duration on dagger. Batrider is limited by a very long CD that's often used offensively. Brood doesn't have any of these limitations, plus she's moving at 522, has +8 health regen, and is invis. Not to mention incapacitating bite evasion. Brood cliff walking and Spectre cliff walking aren't even comparable. A more apt, yet equally awful comparison would be AM, a hero with already 2 defensives (spell reduction and blink) gaining a crazy 3rd (cliffwalking).
Dreams-Visions
Member
I have to disagree, my friend.
To me, the balance of a hero is a question of how much/little effort and design has to be put into killing them. While I agree that she's not immune to slows and stuns, the amount of coordination of said slows and stuns required and the skill with which they must be organized and executed before she simply speed-walks into the nearest set of trees...in pubs, I think it's asking too much.
For one hero, you have to arrange an entire team comp and form hunting parties of at least 3 (and no less than 2 decently long stuns) just for the *chance* to kill them. If she's the last pickup, you may not have a chance to rearrange the comp to effectively deal with her.
I'm still not sure if she's a problem for top tier play, but for your typical pubs? I think she'll be a problem once people understand how to build and play her more. I think as-is, she's a sleeping giant.
I disagree with the analogy to Spectre. You can see where Spectre is and where she's going. With Brood, the investment is decidedly heavier. Also, Spectre's dagger requires it to not be on cooldown and has a mana cost. Brood simply walks into a web that she should already have available as an escape route. Spectre doesn't require any unusual investment to keep an eye on her whereabouts. Brood is an invis hero. We all know what that means.
And again, you might not always get an opportunity to "counterpick", you know. Maybe she was picked up after your team selected their heroes.
I agree with the rest of your reasoning, but this one can be applied to a lot of heroes....
balladofwindfishes
Member
Her moving around trees and up cliffs isn't going to help not make her a giant enemy ATM machine for any hero with an AoE spell or cleave.
Since when could you cleave cliffs or trees? Shit they need to make Sven cleave allow him to wipe out waves of trees with quelling blade, ez.
Dreams-Visions
Member
There are few heroes that are a serious problem if you don't have a specific setup.
In fact, I'd say the only singular hero that was a problem like that was pre-nerf Ghost+Spears Huskar. If you didn't have enough CC, you'd probably lose the game.
Not saying Brood is the new Huskar because she's not that kind of snowballer, but she can farm similar to a PL or AM earlier than a PL or AM...but is largely safer than PL or AM since silences don't fuck her over like it does them and can simply walk into the nearest tree line and be good to go. Build a BKB, Manta, Bfly, Daed and Phasers on her and she kicks a lot of ass.
Whether Brood can become as effective at carrying is a different question and one that will be answered in the coming months. I just haven't seen enough Brood play or players to have an opinion on that. I just know that her passives are excellent and being able to walk through trees will allow her to walk into and out of team fights from random treelines. I look forward to seeing this abused.
She DESTROYS most aoe cleavers early game. They simply don't have enough cleave. Pick a hero like Kunkka or Sven into her and watch what she does to that lane at early levels. Later, perhaps. But that's a matter of decision making and micromanagement, just like treeants. If you don't want to feed them, don't leave them afk attacking a tower when the enemy shows up. Lazy micromanagement feeds spiderlings and teeants.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Her spiderlings do not have the free movement she has, it's free money for anyone with an AoE.
No one is arguing about spiderlings, her spiderlings have always been OK to kill, the argument is that the hero herself is now too good and too difficult to kill; a good brood will manage her spiderlings and can easily create legions more with the jungle. We'll see what happens.
Head of Vengarl
Banned
I finally got a chance to play the new patch this morning, and I broke a 7-loss streak to boot! All Random was very kind to give me Vengeful Spirit, one of my favorite heroes.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/354813270
My first impression of 6.79 is that I love it. As a support player I really noticed the increased passive gold income; as Venge I was forced to play the ward/courier bitch and I still had plenty of gold for boots and other items. I also hear the increased gold income shortens match lengths, which if true is another huge blessing because one of my biggest gripes about Dota is the long game times. As Venge, I also really loved the new Tranquil Boots.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/354813270
My first impression of 6.79 is that I love it. As a support player I really noticed the increased passive gold income; as Venge I was forced to play the ward/courier bitch and I still had plenty of gold for boots and other items. I also hear the increased gold income shortens match lengths, which if true is another huge blessing because one of my biggest gripes about Dota is the long game times. As Venge, I also really loved the new Tranquil Boots.
bananabread
Member
Level 4 Sandstorm is now completely legit for clearing creep camps as SK.
The little creeps will die before they leave the radius and the big creeps will run back in after ~5 seconds and then get down to about 50hp as they flee the second time so you can just poke them and run off (referring to hard camps here).
This is huge for the scorpion because it means you pretty much always have a way to get a blink dagger up in the midgame even as a support SK, since all you need is level 9-10 to clear the jungle really efficiently.
Combined with the higher trickle gold I was just balling out of control as a mid SK and outcarried a Naix + Slark, although granted I was mid in this game and not a 4 or 5.
The little creeps will die before they leave the radius and the big creeps will run back in after ~5 seconds and then get down to about 50hp as they flee the second time so you can just poke them and run off (referring to hard camps here).
This is huge for the scorpion because it means you pretty much always have a way to get a blink dagger up in the midgame even as a support SK, since all you need is level 9-10 to clear the jungle really efficiently.
Combined with the higher trickle gold I was just balling out of control as a mid SK and outcarried a Naix + Slark, although granted I was mid in this game and not a 4 or 5.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
I was expectating a game with a NP complaining about his 120 seconds spawn time.
Only thing I really have a problem with is that she can literally leave the map and then it's very difficult/impossible with certain lineups to kill her even if you can find her.
I did just have a game where a NP died, bought back, then died again in 20 seconds. He didn't rage or anything though, he was actually pretty chill.
this should be patched for every hero who can abuse it, including bat and spectre. cliffwalking is fucking stupid.
They at least are ising timered abilities. Brood gets it permanently.
Just get a soul ring instead. That's my new rubick build: tranquils + soul ring, it's crazy efficient, I never have to go back to regen base ever.
SteveWinwood
Member
Maybe give people the ability to destroy the webs forcing her back on to the map. Make it a real pain in the ass though so it's only really done when you're trying to kill her and not just casually running around the map cleaning up her trash. I don't know how you'd do it.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Sounds sick, really.
I don't think she'll be as effective as carrying, but she has the potential to snowball pretty quickly..
This. Had a great Witch Doctor game last night, support is actually fun now. It's like suddenly - boots! Plenty for wards but best of all is no guilt TPs, can actually show up to fights now, and you know, support.
Yeah we already went over this, but you have to jump on her and kill before she can react. She's like a less tanky spectre in that regard.
But honestly the problem with brood is that she's still 4vs5 most game and a single ES or Ezalor counter her ability to push incredibly efficiently, while getting loads of gold and XP in the meanwhile.
Imho brood still bad. Pickable if she were to be unbanned in CM mode, but mostly a niche pick when your opponent is low on AoE, like she should be imho.
Also, sick theorycraft.
tsunami643
Member
Brood was the first hero I played in 6.79 and I'm definitely feeling like she's a bit overpowered. I was against a really anti-Brood team as well (SB, Mirana, Rubick, Gyro) and they really couldn't do shit to kill me. SB obviously couldn't do anything as long as I was already in a web because by the time his ult is halfway through the cast, he's lost vision of me in trees.. Rubick couldn't get the jump on me because Spiderlings/Spiderites have the same freaking vision as heroes and all I need is one scouting to prepare for any Blink initiation. Mirana ult was a bit problematic, but I just hid on the cliff near their tower if they weren't on the map. Then I immediately resumed pushing without wasting any time walking back to lane.
I'm really curious to see if creep-skipping would be viable with the new Brood. You can angle yourself in a web in such a way that only one melee creep and the ranged creep can hit you at a time.
Now that would be a perfect nerf before she goes into CM. If Silences would disable her web passives like they do Mirana invis. Or if she had to wait the 2 seconds for invis fade time to get cliff-walking bonuses. In its current state it's just ridiculous.
I'm really curious to see if creep-skipping would be viable with the new Brood. You can angle yourself in a web in such a way that only one melee creep and the ranged creep can hit you at a time.
Now that would be a perfect nerf before she goes into CM. If Silences would disable her web passives like they do Mirana invis. Or if she had to wait the 2 seconds for invis fade time to get cliff-walking bonuses. In its current state it's just ridiculous.
Dreams-Visions
Member
With incapacitating bite, there aren't too many she can 1v1 with appropriate farm. Phase, bkb, bfly, manta, daed. Very strong.
Dreams-Visions
Member
<3 Lycan.
Is Lycan still a jungler mostly?
Haunted
Member
They should remove the guides and force the authors to rewrite, at least the starting stuff is now obsolete with the gold changes. Newer players are getting fucked.
re: more gold. I bought all the wards as Venomancer and still felt like I could get more items than usual. It definitely is noticeable... or maybe it's just a placebo effect.
Afraid to play Brood with the new stuff, need to see her in pro matches.
re: more gold. I bought all the wards as Venomancer and still felt like I could get more items than usual. It definitely is noticeable... or maybe it's just a placebo effect.
Afraid to play Brood with the new stuff, need to see her in pro matches.
SteveWinwood
Member
heres a post for the moba mega thread
guardians of middle earth the best moba based on lord of the rings is on sale today for only ten dollars
http://store.steampowered.com/app/111900/
if you want to buy the dlc, aka heroes, too bad thats not on sale
guardians of middle earth the best moba based on lord of the rings is on sale today for only ten dollars
http://store.steampowered.com/app/111900/
if you want to buy the dlc, aka heroes, too bad thats not on sale
You can jungle or lane him decently well. Just watch out for prime gankers or invis xp sappers (bh, ns, bs) if you're planning on jungling.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm going to try picking Brood a couple times tonight to see how enemy teams try to counter me, if they even can. Because the problem last night really felt like it was that there was simply no way to get vision into the trees and with her MS and web size that means you have basically a 1 second window to react to seeing her. Which can be done obviously, but even with like four players last night we had one hell of a time doing it. We killed her twice in 40+ minute game and that included spending like eight minutes camped out mid with sentries everywhere just trying to kill her.
The comparison to Lycan is pretty apt. Like, if we can agree that peak Lycan was at least "difficult" to kill, whatever that means, then a hero who basically has that constantly plus the ability to disappear into terrain is also pretty damn "difficult"
The comparison to Lycan is pretty apt. Like, if we can agree that peak Lycan was at least "difficult" to kill, whatever that means, then a hero who basically has that constantly plus the ability to disappear into terrain is also pretty damn "difficult"
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