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Dota 2 |OT4| The saga of Vade and ReRixo: the Boat Anchors continues.

A

Aaron

Member
Haly said:
Well, there's absolutely no point picking Shadow Shaman unless you're also taking Shackles early. Ether Shock does great damage for a level 1 skill and all, but you're not picking Shadow Shaman to harass, you're doing it to lock people down!
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I only pick him because I really like wards. I guess I never play with others I can trust to do enough damage early for shackles to be worth it at level 1. Shock has been good to driving the enemy back to help the carry farm, and chicken if we're able to close distance, or need a quick disable if the lane turns against us. I get shackle at second or third pick, but only first if I'm with a team I know and we're focused on getting that early first blood.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Aaron said:
I only pick him because I really like wards. I guess I never play with others I can trust to do enough damage early for shackles to be worth it at level 1. Shock has been good to driving the enemy back to help the carry farm, and chicken if we're able to close distance, or need a quick disable if the lane turns against us. I get shackle at second or third pick, but only first if I'm with a team I know and we're focused on getting that early first blood.
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Well, that's one way to play him, certainly. I have the benefit of always duo queueing so I know my shackles are being put to good use.
 
N

NBtoaster

Member
So I've gained about 450 MMR just by playing Phoenix. And I don't feel bad at all.

When I face stacks doing bullshit like Bane Mirana, I feel I need to even the odds.
 
V

ViviOggi

Member
Madouu said:
In this case, initiating with shackles at level 1 against both a mirana arrow and kunkka's torrent was just a disaster waiting to happen, especially when your two allied heroes are melee.
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OpXLyeY.png
 
M

Madouu

Member
Pretty sure we all make/made mistakes, It's cool that he shares his match ids and wants to improve even though the fixed mindset "I don't play support because I can't have any impact on the game" is probably not the best way to do it.

@Hylian: In that game you should've probably just went top and zoned the shit out of the clock, wouldn't stop bottom from failing but it would deny xp/gold from a very important hero and give you some kind of fighting chance in the midgame.

In other news there's some chinese ECL doto coming up in an hour or so, DT vs HGT. BTS will probably cast that. Earlier today, LGD beat NE in the first WvW match, Rabbit played a pretty decent mirana:

Bkw2itxCUAAR2Uh.jpg:large
Click to expand...

Meanwhile, n0tail streaming some meepo: http://www.twitch.tv/fnaticn0tail
 
M

M.D

Member
lol i love all the ember talk
how long ago were people saying he needs a buff and is not viable because of his shit stat gain
 
R

rezuth

Member
Haly said:
Well, there's absolutely no point picking Shadow Shaman unless you're also taking Shackles early. Ether Shock does great damage for a level 1 skill and all, but you're not picking Shadow Shaman to harass, you're doing it to lock people down!
Click to expand...

You skill for lane!
 
R

Razzer

Member
Krauser Kat said:
is there a support hero that can shut down death prophet?
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The above is pretty much it, but I'd also put in that Lina and Lion are nice to have vs her as extreme burst to stop exorcism being a threat is important. If you initiate on her then just zap her your team should usually be able to kill her.
 
H

Hylian7

Member
Madouu said:
You lost the clowny trilane vs trilane at 2 minutes mainly because you were initiating wrong. An important skill of playing support is reading the lane you are in and appraising your strengths and weaknesses which should tell you how you need to play. In this case, initiating with shackles at level 1 against both a mirana arrow and kunkka's torrent was just a disaster waiting to happen, especially when your two allied heroes are melee. Trying to gank mid is good, but chasing an invoker with phase boots when you still don't have marchers is not. You canot play a support hero if you can't judge the situation you are in > every mistake gets paid cash.

As a support, it is generally early on that you will have the most impact, your skills are precious, you canot waste them. Patience is key. If you're having a nightmare start like in this game, you should recognize that your impact will be limited early on and focus on being efficient, aka please don't feed.
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Dreams-Visions said:
Hylian, surely you didn't.

Surely.
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Boken said:
intiating with shackles level 1 vs potm/kunkka is the definition of trying too hard
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Dreams-Visions said:
I simply refuse to believe shackles were taken level 1.

...and I'm not watching the replay, so I will simply believe that it didn't happen.
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Haly said:
Lol, Kunk/Mirana/Doom trilane, jesus that's the worst tri I've ever seen.

Anyway, you should've just taken Centaur top to box out CW.
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Drkirby said:
lvl1shacke.jpg
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Aaron said:
I'm guessing he took a bet to skill in reverse order.
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Haly said:
Shackles 1 is fine for an offensive tri, which is what they were trying to do...

Except they ran into Mirana/Kunkka.
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NBtoaster said:
It looks like he didnt see the Kunkka was there. And shackles level 1 is usually the correct choice.

Though I don't know why either team trilaned that.
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Haly said:
This is a good example of why you should never level your first skill point until you're sure of what you need.
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Madouu said:
I think it just comes from lack of experience on a hero, I have gone for very bad skill builds in particular situations myself on some heroes I am not experienced with. In Hylian's defense, his logic was probably that shackles would be best to get an early kill in a 3v2 situation, he probably didn't expect three heroes in the lane. The decision making as a support is what he needs to work on.

Shackles first is fine in some situations, even in this one it could've worked out if it was used differently.



Yeah, although in this case they tried to go for a badly executed first blood with shackles right before Kunkka showed himself in lane.

The particular play I'm referencing in my first post is right after though. He has established that it is a doom/mirana/kunkka vs ss/centaur/bh trilane and yet chose to shackle the doom resulting in his death.
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I thought it was a dual lane and took shackles first. Other reasons I took it first is because it is his best trilane spell. Shock isn't worth it for a trilane in my opinion, and hex is debatable, probably better in this situation, but I didn't think of that. Like others said, lack of experience on the hero. My winrate is like 2% with him if that is even mathematically possible.

I've always been told that putting a trilane against a solo Clockwerk is utterly pointless. What about shutting down the carry?

Aaron said:
With melee heroes that are also strangers? I can't see that doing anything unless you get really lucky, or the other team is really awful. It's also a good reason why you shouldn't skill until you get in lane.
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sfedai0 said:
Not sure mek and dagger was a good choice....unless that was an early dagger. Force staff or euls, and scept would have been better, especially with a clock. Hex, wards, lightening, and gtfo. Re-engage with shackle when its safe.
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Every team needs a Mek and no one else was getting it so there was no real reason for me not to I felt like.

The Dagger I thought would help for some kind of initiation since I couldn't just walk into fights without getting killed first. Force Staff probably would have been better. I was always told Refresher > Scepter.

Gofu said:
Deep as fuck. Hope he listens to your advice. He never listens to mine.
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Real talk: LOL what advice? You and your troll squad with 1.09's advice is 95% "ur just bad" and 5% actual advice. I'm getting really tired of it honestly, and it certainly isn't helping. Of course I'm probably wasting my time saying anything about it because you are just going to post "kappa keepo copy pasterino" anyway.

Haly said:
Well, there's absolutely no point picking Shadow Shaman unless you're also taking Shackles early. Ether Shock does great damage for a level 1 skill and all, but you're not picking Shadow Shaman to harass, you're doing it to lock people down!
Click to expand...

That was why I picked him. And to be able to push towers.

Kreunt said:
just play a real support like Ogre instead.
Click to expand...

He is melee. That would have probably ended worse.

Aaron said:
I only pick him because I really like wards. I guess I never play with others I can trust to do enough damage early for shackles to be worth it at level 1. Shock has been good to driving the enemy back to help the carry farm, and chicken if we're able to close distance, or need a quick disable if the lane turns against us. I get shackle at second or third pick, but only first if I'm with a team I know and we're focused on getting that early first blood.
Click to expand...

Haly said:
Well, that's one way to play him, certainly. I have the benefit of always duo queueing so I know my shackles are being put to good use.
Click to expand...

Madouu said:
Pretty sure we all make/made mistakes, It's cool that he shares his match ids and wants to improve even though the fixed mindset "I don't play support because I can't have any impact on the game" is probably not the best way to do it.

@Hylian: In that game you should've probably just went top and zoned the shit out of the clock, wouldn't stop bottom from failing but it would deny xp/gold from a very important hero and give you some kind of fighting chance in the midgame.

In other news there's some chinese ECL doto coming up in an hour or so, DT vs HGT. BTS will probably cast that. Earlier today, LGD beat NE in the first WvW match, Rabbit played a pretty decent mirana:



Meanwhile, n0tail streaming some meepo: http://www.twitch.tv/fnaticn0tail
Click to expand...

See above about the Clockwerk thing.

Addressing what people said in general, I don't quite get why people are saying SS isn't a "real" support. He has always been a support to me that has the functionality of pushing towers. Not sure what you guys mean by "not a real support".

Any attempt to ward on almost any support usually feels like that one comic where the SS goes to ward, an Anti-Mage blinks in, Mantas, and SS chickens the real one as the illusions murder him. Just replace AM with Clockwerk.

I'm aware positioning and map awareness are key, as they are on any hero in the game. Those are just a whole different ball game on supports that I am so inexperienced at. The other reason I don't play support is I simply don't find it enjoyable at all.

About smoke ganking mid, I felt like I had a decent range disable with chicken/shackles. Unfortunately, the Invoker started running the opposite direction before the smoke even broke. He knew we were missing for a while, but didn't react by playing defensively until we were ready to approach.
 
D

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
shira said:
GGs today, v1at doing work, SL9 just like 7 & 8 have been awesome tickets to buy
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I actually think this is their best ticket to date. I wonder if they will start Season 10 before or after TI4. They could start it in June, and likely finish the qualifiers before TI4, and then do the finals after TI4. Or they could just start it in August, but thats 4 months away!
 
R

Razzer

Member
Honestly the amount of disagreement there was on whether shackle level 1 can be good or not should show you that not everyone's advice is gonna be great all the time.

In the end, one of the best things to do is just evaluate in your head the advantages and disadvantages of various things in the situations you find yourself in. Things like the Invoker moving are gonna happen, even if you are super good. Just keep at it and you'll improve, as Dreams said.

Though considering how much you clearly want to improve maybe look into getting someone to coach you on support play?
 
A

Aaron

Member
Hylian7 said:
The Dagger I thought would help for some kind of initiation since I couldn't just walk into fights without getting killed first. Force Staff probably would have been better. I was always told Refresher > Scepter.
Click to expand...
Dagger would have been fine on a team you knew that could coordinate, but if you're initiating you really shouldn't be going mech. What if you need it mid shackle? Centaur should have got it. Yeah, he got pipe, but he's the only one in your particular team that should have those sort of items. SS isn't going to live long enough for mech to matter.
 
D

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
So, whats the format, best of 1s, and if they somehow go 1:1:1, they just keep having the winning team play until someone wins 2 games in a row?
 
Heavy's Sandvich

Heavy's Sandvich

Member
You have to recognise the limits of whatever skill you decide to use whenever you play. So, you have to use shackles judiciously only with the mindset that you won't get bummed in the meantime.
 
H

Hylian7

Member
Razzer said:
Honestly the amount of disagreement there was on whether shackle level 1 can be good or not should show you that not everyone's advice is gonna be great all the time.

In the end, one of the best things to do is just evaluate in your head the advantages and disadvantages of various things in the situations you find yourself in. Things like the Invoker moving are gonna happen, even if you are super good. Just keep at it and you'll improve, as Dreams said.

Though considering how much you clearly want to improve maybe look into getting someone to coach you on support play?
Click to expand...

Makes sense, might do that.

Aaron said:
Dagger would have been fine on a team you knew that could coordinate, but if you're initiating you really shouldn't be going mech. What if you need it mid shackle? Centaur should have got it. Yeah, he got pipe, but he's the only one in your particular team that should have those sort of items. SS isn't going to live long enough for mech to matter.
Click to expand...

Also makes sense, but I guess that is a more general problem I have sometime. What do you do in a situation where your team needs a certain item (like Mek) and you can't buy it for whatever reason yet your teammates won't buy it even if you ask?

I also felt like Mek doubles as a personal survivability item. After all, that is the reason people get it on Viper.
 
A

Aaron

Member
Hylian7 said:
Also makes sense, but I guess that is a more general problem I have sometime. What do you do in a situation where your team needs a certain item (like Mek) and you can't buy it for whatever reason yet your teammates won't buy it even if you ask?

I also felt like Mek doubles as a personal survivability item. After all, that is the reason people get it on Viper.
Click to expand...
With a team like that, you're going to lose late game, so focus items that help you do as much harm as quickly as possible. Viper is a special case for mech because he causes damage the more he takes. Mech is like a refresher for his corrosive skin. That it helps the team is almost secondary.
 
F

FACE

Banned
Isn't the Dark Pact damage dealt in several quick instances? Might be decent against TA, but I've never played or really seem that match up.
 
D

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
So, what are you guys hoping for? I want C9 and Rox.Kis to make it to lan.

Also, I'll do you a favor Shira and not downvote your post on reddit.
 
I

inkls

Member
So whats the best way to piss off a bloodseeker? it seems like I've been seeing alot of them after 8pm est even in ranked all pick and captain mode.

Even seem to only be radiance bloodseeker and my team doesn't understand how thirst works it seems in general.
 
A

Aaron

Member
inkls said:
So whats the best way to piss off a bloodseeker? it seems like I've been seeing alot of them after 8pm est even in ranked all pick and captain mode.

Even seem to only be radiance bloodseeker and my team doesn't understand how thirst works it seems in general.
Click to expand...
Rubic. Steal ult and make the seeker bleed.
 
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