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[Haly]

You had a scrub Invoker who doesn't know how QW works, coming back to Invoker after a 2 month break before which he played QE exclusively. And a newbie Earth Spirit who has all of 5 games on him, 3 of which are losses and where, on his victories, went 2/11 and 0/5. So, right there, you're down two players who've picked some of the hardest heroes to play in the game.

Your Shadow Demon was also terrible, and totally inexperienced against organized trilanes. The only people you could rely on were yourself and DP, and DP is in the same boat as you. Both of you are slightly above average players who have had 3000+ games played and yet are still sub 50 win rate. He is probably desperately on the #roadto4k in the same way you are.

Meanwhile, on Dire.

Lion is a smurf or someone coming from Dota 1/HoN (sub 500 games played and 54% win rate). SK and Ember are just marginally better than you and DP, going purely by win rates. Clinkz and Disruptor are hidden, but I'm willing to bet Clinkz is a smurf and Disruptor might be one too, or possibly Clinkz's friend. What's most important is that on Dire, Lion was coordinating the trilane. My justification for this is based on his smurf-like stats, and that he bought both Observers and Sentries. This is the hallmark of a tryhard, experienced trilaner.

Protip, if you're trilaning, or expecting a trilane, always buy Sentries.

You've probably had enough people telling you "you're trash" and you should "get good", so I'm not going to get into that here, but you're building TB entirely wrong. Don't ever, ever, ever, get Sange and Yasha. It is just a waste. Do 1.09's Aquila-Treads-Drums-Yasha-Manta build. It gets the job done.

 

[SteveWinwood]

the hells wrong with sny on tb

 

[Hylian7]

You had a scrub Invoker who doesn't know how QW works, coming back to Invoker after a 2 month break before which he played QE exclusively. And a newbie Earth Spirit who has all of 5 games on him, 3 of which are losses and where, on his victories, went 2/11 and 0/5. So, right there, you're down two players who've picked some of the hardest heroes to play in the game.

Your Shadow Demon was also terrible, and totally inexperienced against organized trilanes. The only people you could rely on were yourself and DP, and DP is in the same boat as you. Both of you are slightly above average players who have had 3000+ games played and yet are still sub 50 win rate. He is probably desperately on the #roadto4k in the same way you are.

Meanwhile, on Dire.

Lion is a smurf or someone coming from Dota 1/HoN (sub 500 games played and 54% win rate). SK and Ember are just marginally better than you and DP, going purely by win rates. Clinkz and Disruptor are hidden, but I'm willing to bet Clinkz is a smurf and Disruptor might be one too, or possibly Clinkz's friend. What's most important is that on Dire, Lion was coordinating the trilane. My justification for this is based on his smurf-like stats, and that he bought both Observers and Sentries. This is the hallmark of a tryhard, experienced trilaner.

Protip, if you're trilaning, or expecting a trilane, always buy Sentries.

You've probably had enough people telling you "you're trash" and you should "get good", so I'm not going to get into that here, but you're building TB entirely wrong. Don't ever, ever, ever, get Sange and Yasha. It is just a waste. Do 1.09's Aquila-Treads-Drums-Yasha-Manta build. It gets the job done.

Well godamn you did your homework on that one.

So why not SnY? I read that you want stat stuff on TB, and even Purge said that SnY and Skadi were core on him. The other build makes sense too though. Did I at least have the right idea split pushing like that?

 

[neurosisxeno]

You've probably had enough people telling you "you're trash" and you should "get good", so I'm not going to get into that here, but you're building TB entirely wrong. Don't ever, ever, ever, get Sange and Yasha. It is just a waste. Do 1.09's Aquila-Treads-Drums-Yasha-Manta build. It gets the job done.

I feel like this has come up several times that he's linked matches he played TB. SnY isn't a great item on TB. Aquila-Treads-Drums-Yasha-Manta is substantially better. SnY->Skadi is just too inefficient in terms of Cost:Benefit, it's a huge waste of gold and will only work in games where your team is curbstomping people--which is apparent looking at your match history with wins using that item progression.

 

[rac]

I couldn't even win this with fucking Terrorblade, the hero that is the most overpowered in the game right now.

There were times when you sundered the disruptor even though he already used all his skills and the ember was hitting you. I don't know if it would've changed the outcomes of the fights but it just didn't seem like the right target in my opinion.

 

[Hylian7]

There were times when you sundered the disruptor even though he already used all his skills and the ember was hitting you. I don't know if it would've changed the outcomes of the fights but it just didn't seem like the right target in my opinion.

Fair enough. I was kind of panicking and having trouble with the camera in some of those moments, and I didn't think I would be able to kill ES anyway.

 

[neurosisxeno]

So why not SnY? I read that you want stat stuff on TB, and even Purge said that SnY and Skadi were core on him. The other build makes sense too though. Did I at least have the right idea split pushing like that?

SnY + Skadi counteracts the idea of split pushing. You want Manta for extra illusions to help split push, and you can't effectively get a Manta when you dump money into an SnY. Not to mention you'll hit a point at about 25-30 mins when you're in the middle of building your Skadi that you have only an SnY and Treads, compared to other carries that are getting big ticket items, which does not work in your favor.

There were times when you sundered the disruptor even though he already used all his skills and the ember was hitting you. I don't know if it would've changed the outcomes of the fights but it just didn't seem like the right target in my opinion.

Can't watch the replay but probably not. You want to target tanky heroes within range that are going to put a beatdown on your team. Disruptor is annoying but totally managable.

 

[God Enel]

You had a scrub Invoker who doesn't know how QW works, coming back to Invoker after a 2 month break before which he played QE exclusively. And a newbie Earth Spirit who has all of 5 games on him, 3 of which are losses and where, on his victories, went 2/11 and 0/5. So, right there, you're down two players who've picked some of the hardest heroes to play in the game.

Your Shadow Demon was also terrible, and totally inexperienced against organized trilanes. The only people you could rely on were yourself and DP, and DP is in the same boat as you. Both of you are slightly above average players who have had 3000+ games played and yet are still sub 50 win rate. He is probably desperately on the #roadto4k in the same way you are.

Meanwhile, on Dire.

Lion is a smurf or someone coming from Dota 1/HoN (sub 500 games played and 54% win rate). SK and Ember are just marginally better than you and DP, going purely by win rates. Clinkz and Disruptor are hidden, but I'm willing to bet Clinkz is a smurf and Disruptor might be one too, or possibly Clinkz's friend. What's most important is that on Dire, Lion was coordinating the trilane. My justification for this is based on his smurf-like stats, and that he bought both Observers and Sentries. This is the hallmark of a tryhard, experienced trilaner.

Protip, if you're trilaning, or expecting a trilane, always buy Sentries.

You've probably had enough people telling you "you're trash" and you should "get good", so I'm not going to get into that here, but you're building TB entirely wrong. Don't ever, ever, ever, get Sange and Yasha. It is just a waste. Do 1.09's Aquila-Treads-Drums-Yasha-Manta build. It gets the job done.

May i ask why noone rushes radiance/diffu after drums? I always thought tb is pretty much like naga. After radi manta into skadi/heart/butterfly/crits(?)

 

[SteveWinwood]

SnY + Skadi counteracts the idea of split pushing. You want Manta for extra illusions to help split push, and you can't effectively get a Manta when you dump money into an SnY. Not to mention you'll hit a point at about 25-30 mins when you're in the middle of building your Skadi that you have only an SnY and Treads, compared to other carries that are getting big ticket items, which does not work in your favor.

i mean you turn the sny into a manta as soon as you're done building it

its not like youre hurting for money on him

you destroy towers like a hot knife thru butter

 

[Haly]

the hells wrong with sny on tb

It's not Manta.

 

[neurosisxeno]

i mean you turn the sny into a manta as soon as you're done building it

its not like youre hurting for money on him

you destroy towers like a hot knife thru butter

A Sange won't help you any more than an ultimate orb, it puts you further from actually getting a Manta. SnY costs what, 4100 Gold? Manta costs 5000 even I think. Building a Sange puts you 3k gold further from a Manta, instead of just saving another 900 to get it. It's just not effective enough.

 

[Haly]

May i ask why noone rushes radiance/diffu after drums? I always thought tb is pretty much like naga. After radi manta into skadi/heart/butterfly/crits(?)

Feedback (mana burn orb), doesn't work on ranged units. You will be ranged for most of your engagements. You also have the best slow in the game already, on top of your variable range, so you don't need Purge.

Radiance TB is a different animal than Drums-Yasha TB. Drums-Yasha TB revolves around taking an early gold lead in towers and using that to snowball your team into the mid/late victory. Radiance TB is slower, but more inevitable, like Bfury AM. It requires good ricing skills, an understanding of how TB works, and a team that can create enough space for TB to "go online".

Hylian7, along with most pub TBs, has none of this, so I don't mention it.

For the Sange and Yasha argument, you just need to look at the stats.

Manta Style - Built 750,000 times on TB, 69% win rate.
Sange and Yasha - Built 760,000 times on TB, 63% win rate.

 

[GorillaJu]

Build A might get the job done but it doesn't mean that you should always go that way, and it may not fit the way you like to play the game. I guess if your idea of picking a hero is because you want to win games and purely for that reason than it makes sense, but I'd argue that its stupid because you aren't getting better at the game if you're just copying a build that you know works for other people, or for a certain strategy.

I have seen extremely good players such as Loda build S&Y on TB, and in the few games as I've played TB I've done it myself two or three times and we won those games. But I don't like to do split push builds (on any hero), I like to get online asap and fight fight fight. Thus building radiance and hiding near tier 2 towers while I send out illusions to split farm lanes is the height of boring-ass game play to me. There are advantages to S&Y.

Any time someone says "your build is fucking stupid, go for X items" then you can safely ignore them, because there's no 'right' way to build your items on Dota 2, except the way that meshes best with how you play the hero. There are clever builds that accentuate a hero's skills, this is true. The Aquila->Drums->Manta build is good for that reason. But TB is more versatile than just being relegated to split-pushing. And getting SNY isn't going to slow down split/jungle farming, not by much anyway.

That isn't to say advice is always bad. Like if someone says "Yo you're building a split-pushing build but you aren't split-pushing," then you should work the lanes with your illusions. Or if you're split-pushing with Furion but you're building Orchid, Dagon and Sheep, that's obviously not optimal either, and you should listen if someone tells you that your build and your play style aren't meshing.

But in the same way that you can be doing a workout that your personal trainer told you is ideal for you, your body and your limits, some douche bag holding a 2-liter bottle will still walk up to you in the gym to tell you that no, you're doing it all wrong and wasting your time, this is how you should lift. The same goes for Dota 2

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Morsel with wise counsel.

 

[Haly]

I guess if your idea of picking a hero is because you want to win games and purely for that reason than it makes sense, but I'd argue that its stupid because you aren't getting better at the game if you're just copying a build that you know works for other people, or for a certain strategy.

Hylian only cares about getting to 4k at this point. It's what he lives for, it's what drives him.

I have seen extremely good players such as Loda build S&Y on TB, and in the few games as I've played TB I've done it myself two or three times and we won those games.

Loda, EE, SongSong, Arteezy, etc, can do whatever the fuck they please and make it work because they or their teammates' skills are on such a higher level that they would necessitate a handicap to make the matchups remotely fair.

But I don't like to do split push builds (on any hero), I like to get online asap and fight fight fight. Thus building radiance and hiding near tier 2 towers while I send out illusions to split farm lanes is the height of boring-ass game play to me. There are advantages to S&Y.

There are advantages to using a subpar item build when playing a hero a subpar way, yes, I agree. Such as Blinkz, or Dagon Pugna, or Carry Treant. If you think you're so good that you can assclown your way to victory, more power to you. Hylian is not this type of player.

Any time someone says "your build is fucking stupid, go for X items" then you can safely ignore them, because there's no 'right' way to build your items on Dota 2, except the way that meshes best with how you play the hero.

Hylian wishes to win above all else, my advice is 100% tailored to helping him achieve this goal.

And getting SNY isn't going to slow down split/jungle farming, not by much anyway.

Slows it down by precisely 3000g, the cost of turning a S&Y into a Manta later on.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Haly with the wise rebuttal. lol

 

[Anbokr]

yeah manta is pretty core on TB, it increases your damage output significantly and gets you out of silences.

going sny is meh, you're already fast and the str/hp you can get from other items like skadii. plus when you inevitably go manta you're left with a shitty ass halberd

 

[neurosisxeno]

shitty ass halberd

https://xkcd.com/37/

Ass-Halberd.

 

[Ultimatum]

omfg essay gaf out in full force

I saw demon build radiance in pub game earlier (not sure if before or after manta, I missed start), and it was good but it's hard to tell how good because tb is always good. He also had butterfly which is usually good on him. I think manta is core but after that just go with the flow.

 

[GorillaJu]

Hylian only cares about getting to 4k at this point. It's what he lives for, it's what drives him.


Loda, EE, SongSong, Arteezy, etc, can do whatever the fuck they please and make it work because they or their teammates' skills are on such a higher level that they would necessitate a handicap to make the matchups remotely fair.


There are advantages to using a subpar item build when playing a hero a subpar way, yes, I agree. Such as Blinkz, or Dagon Pugna, or Carry Treant. If you think you're so good that you can assclown your way to victory, more power to you. Hylian is not this type of player.


Hylian wishes to win above all else, my advice is 100% tailored to helping him achieve this goal.


Slows it down by precisely 3000g, the cost of turning a S&Y into a Manta later on.

I agree that simply copying Loda, Arteezy, or whoever isn't the best plan of action but it actually kind of reinforces my point. Those players build items that work for them, for how they play, at their skill level. I was just saying that "never ever build S&Y on Terrorblade" isn't positive advice, and that there is evidence to show that certain people can use that item effectively. It's S&Y on an agility carry. It's not like it's Veil on N'aix, or Armlet on Tinker.

Anyway, it's not about ass-clowning your way to a victory when you build a non-trendy setup. A certain build can be completely legitimate for certain games, and its not because I'm the second coming of Gullin and I'm so much better than everyone else in this game that I can fuck around and still win, it's because it's actually a decent build it just doesn't fit a majority of games.

I mean I agree that Manta is a better choice than S&Y for Terrorblade in most games, and I'd advise people to choose that option. I just take issue with "never, ever get X item on Y hero," especially when, as you said, 63% win rate.

 

[Haly]

I'll add one more thing. This "there is no one right way to do things" and "you should do what works for you" attitude, while healthy, drastically slows down your rate of improvement. People who think like this are either playing DOTA as a casual past time, or are already so good that they don't need to pay much attention to their play in pub games. For players striving to be in the latter group, they will eventually have to buckle down and take the process of learning the game seriously to see real improvement and results in the form of a higher MMR/win rate.

If you're trying to be a better mid, you have to study the matchups so you know when to shift your playstle to adapt to unfavorable circumstances. You should assume a leadership role in your games because the mid is the best person to be the playmaker. If you're support, you start thinking critically about the ward game, start buying and using smoke, learn the ins and outs of trilanes. Carry? Above all else improve your farming mechanics and avoid ever standing wround not knowing where to go to farm. Every hero has one or two optimal playstyles you should learn, not just because they are effective, but understanding why they're effective deepens your understanding of how the game works.

On top of all this, you should be honing your game sense so you can begin to predict future ganks and roshans and clashes and so forth. Think about where everyone is, where you last saw them, what items they had, towers still up to TP to. Who on your team is the priority gank target? What would you be trying to do if you were in their position? How should you position yourself relative to your team to maximize your hero's skills and minimize getting caught out?

DOTA2 is such a multifaceted and complex game that you won't get anywhere if you dont apply a base level of disicipline towards improvent.

 

[SteveWinwood]

halbard is good tho

 

[Haly]

it's actually a decent build it just doesn't fit a majority of games.

Could you please provide a scenario where S&Y on TB is more efficacious than Manta Style? Because I'm drawing a blank. Even Carry Tiny, who is a STR hero, benefits more from going Manta than S&Y. Manta is just that much better than S&Y.

 

[Arkanius]

I think I was a pretty good Invoker back when QE was the shit.
Why is everyone going QW nowadays? What happened?

What is a good QW build and skill combo? Tornado and EMP?

 

[neurosisxeno]

I think I was a pretty good Invoker back when QE was the shit.
Why is everyone going QW nowadays? What happened?

What is a good QW build and skill combo? Tornado and EMP?

They buffed EMP to comical values. It drains basically everyones mana and has a quite sizeable AoE by mid-game.

 

[Prophet Steve]

I think I was a pretty good Invoker back when QE was the shit.
Why is everyone going QW nowadays? What happened?

What is a good QW build and skill combo? Tornado and EMP?

EMP got a buff and can remove 540 mana I think?

So yeah, tornado and emp.

 

[GorillaJu]

Could you please provide a scenario where S&Y on TB is more efficacious than Manta Style? Because I'm drawing a blank. Even Carry Tiny, who is a STR hero, benefits more from going Manta than S&Y. Manta is just that much better than S&Y.

The S&Y build-up makes it more viable in situations where you don't have the luxury of farming up 2100 gold all at once.

 

[Arkanius]

They buffed EMP to comical values. It drains basically everyones mana and has a quite sizeable AoE by mid-game.

Do we ignore downplay Exort and rely on Alacrity to get DPS?

 

[shira]

League of Legends X Game of Thrones ad campaign wtf?

 

[Acinixys]

I can't last hit for shit with POTM. Dat low base damage and slow projectile speed. There has got to be a trick.

Buy Wraithband

Practice

Try last hitting with CM and then try Mirana?

 

[Boken]

League of Legends X Game of Thrones ad campaign wtf?

What was it?

N U jealous?

 

[shira]

http://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/news/27242-european-teams-for-wpc-ace-western-qualifiers-confirmed

Iccccup fighting with a, anime, and remake. Top2 go to china

EG would have been perfect

What was it?

N U jealous?

I know nothing shira snow

 

[Hazaro]

Lion is a smurf or someone coming from Dota 1/HoN (sub 500 games played and 54% win rate).

What does that make me?

Spoiler

52.63% without Earth Spirit

I know it's supposed to happen, but it still feels good every time. Especially when Abbadon is auto attacking the lane, taking my CS, and we started 0-3 (One death mid, me, abba).

Also note it was CD, the only hard carries in the pool were Luna, CK, Tiny and our Captain first picked Luna.

 

[Acinixys]

What does that make me?

Pick Pudge

Lose the lategame

Every time. This is why i hate that hero. Useless past 20 mins.

 

[Marauder Shields]

Pick Pudge

Lose the lategame

Every time. This is why i hate that hero. Useless past 20 mins.

Why is that? I kinda assumed that he was infinitely scalable given how Flesh Heap works.

 

[M.D]

Are null talisalman + tango good starting items for a QE Invoker? Most times its really hard to last hit until you get a few levels and the phase boots, but talisman gives you some nice stats and damage on level 1

 

[GorillaJu]

Pudge can beextremely good in 4-5k games I've found. He can verge on uselessness, but I've also seen him be the deciding factor in games. This team I was against had DP, Pudge and ES and we had a huge early game advantage against them but we couldn't ever break high ground, even with aegis, higher levels and better items. DP ults, ES blocks off the high ground with fissure, usually one of us would die and then someone would get hooked over the other side of the fissure and die. This happened until the gold/exp advantage went in their favor and we couldn't buy back to stop the game ending push. Nothing fucking worked and it was the pudge hook that made it impossible to push against them.

 

[rezuth]

Why is that? I kinda assumed that he was infinitely scalable given how Flesh Heap works.

He meant

Pick Pudge

Do nothing for 20mins/Team does nothing for 20mins

Lose game

 

[Demoli]

He meant

I think he meant after 20 mins, unless he snowballed to crazy levels, Pudge is a one trick pony, which is the hook initiation. Sure, if you hit it you have a guaranteed kill, but Stuff like Bat has a garanteed initiation and does more than sit around killing itself slowly.

 

[Phandy]

When (I believe) hylian gets 4k, we need a thread title change. This is some hardcore team effort shit.

 

[electroshockwave]

Pick Pudge

Lose the lategame

Every time. This is why i hate that hero. Useless past 20 mins.

I think they lost the late game because they were against a Luna, DK and CK and the possible carries they had on their team consisted of Huskar and two heroes who got a mek. I don't think they had good teamfight heroes either. Flesh heap gets you super tanky and lets your ultimate scale with an Aghs, and you have a 3 second disable that goes through BKB on a 30 second cooldown. And hook lets you get pickoffs/initiate like bat can.

Also, I think Blink would definitely be better to get than force staff now.

 

[rezuth]

I think he meant after 20 mins, unless he snowballed to crazy levels, Pudge is a one trick pony, which is the hook initiation. Sure, if you hit it you have a guaranteed kill, but Stuff like Bat has a garanteed initiation and does more than sit around killing itself slowly.

Pudge is a always a one trick pony. It's not as much about snowballing as just scaring the other team and harass their lanes. Just make it hard for their team to farm or push.

Also, I think Blink would definitely be better to get than force staff now.

Depends on the team really. If you want a sure escape I would go with force rather, blink is great if you wanna get in on them though but that is not always the most optimal if you wanna be sure to get out too.

 

[Acinixys]

Pudge is a always a one trick pony. It's not as much about snowballing as just scaring the other team and harass their lanes. Just make it hard for their team to farm or push.

This is my experience of Pudge:

Pudge on enemy team - Fucking glorious Dendi skills, blind hooks into fog to secure kills, roams like a beast and kills the carry 10 times in the first 15 mins, is 20/1 at the 30 min mark, wins his team the game

Pudge on my team 99% of the time - Misses every hook or hooks a creep, loses mid to Crystal Maiden (this has legit happened to me, she killed him 4 time before the 5 min mark), dies when he roams to gank, 1/14 at 30 mins, has brown boots and an urn at the end of the game

 

[Hayvic]

Guys guys, I just had a great though! What if there was an option to enable friendly fire?

 

[Drkirby]

Aw yeah, Spooky Scary Skeletons, the courier:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=241726076&searchtext=

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

I think that looks really good.

Fits the art style of the game.

Impressed.

 

[ViviOggi]

Aw yeah, Spooky Scary Skeletons, the courier:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=241726076&searchtext=

 

[The Technomancer]

This is my experience of Pudge:

Pudge on enemy team - Fucking glorious Dendi skills, blind hooks into fog to secure kills, roams like a beast and kills the carry 10 times in the first 15 mins, is 20/1 at the 30 min mark, wins his team the game

Pudge on my team 99% of the time - Misses every hook or hooks a creep, loses mid to Crystal Maiden (this has legit happened to me, she killed him 4 time before the 5 min mark), dies when he roams to gank, 1/14 at 30 mins, has brown boots and an urn at the end of the game

Yeah, I am not a fan of Pudge. Mostly just because of how often he's picked, and how often its usually followed up with "i mid" even if we already have like, Puck or something.

 

[SamVimes]

That being said, if Merlini practiced with a dedicated team and made playing his full time job, I have no doubt he could still be a top tier player. If memory serves me correctly Loda has been around about as long as Merlini, but Merlini was consistantly better than him until the post-MYM era when Merlini kind of stopped concentrating on playing competitively.

Didn't he try out for the old dignitas and was found sorely lacking?

 

[Kade]

Time for a break. The game isn't fun this week, with friends (especially with friends) or otherwise and I should probably be doing more important things. It'll probably be fun again next week.