-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
DOTA 2 |OT9| League of Ancients (6.84)
- Thread starter Teknopathetic
- Start date
- Status
Dreams-Visions
Member
Oops, made the mistake of thinking Troll Warlord could be on a losing team comp.
silly boy
Prophet Steve
Member
Wok
Member
I try to go 1-1-1 by level 3, but here, I felt it was better to go backstab and invisibilty to harass the poor KotL. With Orb of Venom, he could not stand the harass for long. This is why I got first blood:
The problem with "Wolves need no armor" is that it does not work: people teleport to defend even at 2K MMR. So if my team is even at teamfights, I just end up pushing lanes so that the opponent who teleported can farm safely. It is so stupid: people are fighting 4 vs 4 while I push lanes and farm and then an opponent pushes lanes I have pushed and farms.
Another semi-analytical musing: Post-nerf Tinker
Remember the patch where Tinker got the nerf where he couldn't do ancients anymore, plus the other things like Eblade change, Dagon manacost change, and that stuff? Everyone thought Tinker was completely gone and useless now, in both pro and pubs. Guess what, he STILL gets picked in both now, because he's still a good hero. But why is he still a good hero? There's a number of reasons.
1. Ancients were his primary way to catch up and get way ahead in the past, now that that is gone, he has to make use of other methods. Marching lanes is an obvious one, but also keep in mind you can get creative marching the jungle. On both sides of the map, there are spots where you can stand to march 2-3 camps at once. Radiant has a really good one for three camps, which is to the east of the "magic bush" you can hit the large, medium, and small camp with it. It's quite nice, especially when you stack all 3 at once. Another thing to consider though, is that mud golems won't screw up your stacks! It's probably a bug, but they still aggro from march, meaning you can stack camps even if they have mud golems in them. Either you can right click them down yourself, or ask someone else on your team to do it.
2. Being anywhere on the map is AWESOME, especially for a hero with nukes and AoE that are as good as his. It's a good way for him to contribute to fights in just the right places.
3. He's still a good laner. Laser having 100% miss change and pure damage is still a big deal, and having an easy wave clear with March is also great. On top of that, he could come out victorious with a good march if he gets dived. This brings me to my next point.
4. He usually takes significant effort from a team to stop. For those that watched our game in the IHL yesterday where I got Tinker vs Fistfull of Meerus, you saw that they dedicated 3 people to trying to stop me mid. This suppressed my farm and delayed my BoTs, but they had to keep THREE PEOPLE mid and couldn't kill me. They even dove me and still couldn't get it. This opens up the rest of the map for other things to happen on other lanes.
5. Sheeps forever is awesome. I have always been a big fan of the sheep build for Tinker. I never really liked the Dagon rush build, always feels cheap and never effective enough. I'd rather just sheep them permanently for a carry to kill them or nuke them down myself. On top of that, you can sheep rosh too, which is extremely useful.
Bottom line, he's still not an easy hero to deal with. I don't think he's as grossly overpowered as he used to be, but he is still definitely a force to be reckoned with.
Remember the patch where Tinker got the nerf where he couldn't do ancients anymore, plus the other things like Eblade change, Dagon manacost change, and that stuff? Everyone thought Tinker was completely gone and useless now, in both pro and pubs. Guess what, he STILL gets picked in both now, because he's still a good hero. But why is he still a good hero? There's a number of reasons.
1. Ancients were his primary way to catch up and get way ahead in the past, now that that is gone, he has to make use of other methods. Marching lanes is an obvious one, but also keep in mind you can get creative marching the jungle. On both sides of the map, there are spots where you can stand to march 2-3 camps at once. Radiant has a really good one for three camps, which is to the east of the "magic bush" you can hit the large, medium, and small camp with it. It's quite nice, especially when you stack all 3 at once. Another thing to consider though, is that mud golems won't screw up your stacks! It's probably a bug, but they still aggro from march, meaning you can stack camps even if they have mud golems in them. Either you can right click them down yourself, or ask someone else on your team to do it.
2. Being anywhere on the map is AWESOME, especially for a hero with nukes and AoE that are as good as his. It's a good way for him to contribute to fights in just the right places.
3. He's still a good laner. Laser having 100% miss change and pure damage is still a big deal, and having an easy wave clear with March is also great. On top of that, he could come out victorious with a good march if he gets dived. This brings me to my next point.
4. He usually takes significant effort from a team to stop. For those that watched our game in the IHL yesterday where I got Tinker vs Fistfull of Meerus, you saw that they dedicated 3 people to trying to stop me mid. This suppressed my farm and delayed my BoTs, but they had to keep THREE PEOPLE mid and couldn't kill me. They even dove me and still couldn't get it. This opens up the rest of the map for other things to happen on other lanes.
5. Sheeps forever is awesome. I have always been a big fan of the sheep build for Tinker. I never really liked the Dagon rush build, always feels cheap and never effective enough. I'd rather just sheep them permanently for a carry to kill them or nuke them down myself. On top of that, you can sheep rosh too, which is extremely useful.
Bottom line, he's still not an easy hero to deal with. I don't think he's as grossly overpowered as he used to be, but he is still definitely a force to be reckoned with.
I try to go 1-1-1 by level 3, but here, I felt it was better to go backstab and invisibilty to harass the poor KotL. With Orb of Venom, he could not stand the harass for long. This is why I got first blood:
The problem with "Wolves need no armor" is that it does not work: people teleport to defend even at 2K MMR. So if my team is even at teamfights, I just end up pushing lanes so that the opponent who teleported can farm safely. It is so stupid: people are fighting 4 vs 4 while I push lanes and farm and then an opponent pushes lanes I have pushed and farms.
You need a team with enough early game team fight that the other team is forced to send 5 to fight your 4. If they can just 4v4 you and defend against the wolf, it doesn't work as well. Similar situation to spider gaming.
lolk
shira
Member
but ur team had no dmg and no farm and no teamfight and we had push so we hit your buildings and won
we dont need to kill you if we take rosh and drow/pugna pushes all your T2 down early
offlane ET vs Drow isn't 'opened up' to do anything except feed
shira
Member
We had other problems that game, so it's probably a bad example.
rakkadakka
Member
They need to change Least Played to Least Played heroes by everyone in the current patch.
There's no safe shore from sniper/troll.. even RD or SD.
Maybe I should try All Random.
There's no safe shore from sniper/troll.. even RD or SD.
Maybe I should try All Random.
Good implies a better than average hero...with so many direct and indirect nerfs I'm not sure Tinker is even an average hero at this point. Sure in the right hands and with the right team comps he can be spectacular, but I'm not sure those are characteristics of a good hero. Instead more of a hero that can fit into a pocket strat, than a generally good hero.
Why, because Troll exists? Wouldn't almost every hero in the game go under the same category then?
Not just Troll, but the way play has evolved around around heroes like Storm, QOP, SF, and Sniper hasn't helped Tinker. Then the TP scrolls being cheaper has also hurt all split pushers. Maybe you can bring Tinker back in the IHL, I'd love to see it. Because a good Tinker is fun to watch in my opinion.
A Sentient Keyboard
Member
Goats need no farm?
That stuff was all there before Tinker got nerfed, what makes it more dangerous now?
Monochromaticx
Member
dota network down and wont let me join wtf
there's so much that you could do to troll
remove the move speed buff from his melee mode for instance
make his ult local instead of global
like it's lowkey unbelievable that icefraud ever even let the hero get to this point, i'm surprised his ranged attacks don't proc silence tbh
and if he gets abyssal he goes from 10% bash chance to 25%. sure
Yeah, he already has so many other strengths, his bashes are just icing on the cake.
Sure but he couldn't bash lock you at least.
The ult thing is a good idea, however I think the MS probably should be kept.
And make him have to buy a near 3k item to bash, or near 7k item to get a stun for sure and take up an items lot for this? I'm okay with this.
Exactly, and they are absurd icing on the cake. Part of the problem with the hero is that he does fucking everything. This guy stuns you in addition to everything else he does. At the very least change the bash to a slow or something.
Also the miss chance on whirling axes melee needs to be lowered, take away the flying vision on both whirling axes ranged and melee too.
ok yeah lets remove his identity as a hero.
other ideas:
remove shrapnel (ty bokr!)
remove lasso (ty gofu!)
Put a cooldown on the bash (make overlapped bashes lses probable), make the ultimate *sound* truly global (like Dismember and one or two others, to make it harder to sneak into Roshan), make the whirling axes blind chance scale with levels (to make early ganks easier), reduce melee mode armour by one (to make him a little less naturally tanky).
Troll isn't even in the top 25 by winrate in pro games. Juggernaut has a comparable number of games in 6.83, and a much higher winrate. Sniper hasn't been picked quite as much, but also has a much higher winrate. Troll's problem is pubstomping.
Troll isn't even in the top 25 by winrate in pro games. Juggernaut has a comparable number of games in 6.83, and a much higher winrate. Sniper hasn't been picked quite as much, but also has a much higher winrate. Troll's problem is pubstomping.
How is a bash his identity as a hero? People don't pick him for the bash. He's not know because he has a bash. He's known because he hits super fast on the same target, and his ultimate.
did u play dota 1?
this is akin to removing metamorphosis from terrorblade or shapeshift from lycan. troll's identity has always been THE berserking bashlord
Barely, but it was just for funzies long after Dota 2 was in full swing. Bashlord still doesn't have to be a part of it, and if you still want him to be a bashlord, just buy a basher! Froggy doesn't have to balance based on arbitrary "hero identities". That's like saying that Tinker's identity was "farming ancients".
He has two skills that revolve around increasing attack speed and you cite that as his sole identity? Cannot agree with you there.
what about removing mana break from anti-mage. having him buy a 3k gold item also seems fine by me.
EDIT: not his sole identity, but it is a large part.
Didn't see the "sole" part of ur post.
no, it's like nerfing tinker by making Boots of Travel's CD unaffected by re-arm
Again, not the same thing. Also remember AM used to have a mana burn like Nyx a loooooooooong time ago, so that isn't really the strongest example anyway.
they could never remove the minibash from sniper, it's part of his identity
how about we just remove his extra range kappa
I try to go 1-1-1 by level 3, but here, I felt it was better to go backstab and invisibilty to harass the poor KotL. With Orb of Venom, he could not stand the harass for long. This is why I got first blood:
The problem with "Wolves need no armor" is that it does not work: people teleport to defend even at 2K MMR. So if my team is even at teamfights, I just end up pushing lanes so that the opponent who teleported can farm safely. It is so stupid: people are fighting 4 vs 4 while I push lanes and farm and then an opponent pushes lanes I have pushed and farms.
You are doing something very, very wrong if you can't splitpush as lycan. The entire point of that sort of Lycan build is to force the other team to respond in such a way that they are at a disadvantage elsewhere on the map. If one person TPs to defend a tower against a lycan with treads vlads necrobook you use howl, activate ult and fucking kill them. You can count the number of heroes who can deal with a Lycan with that sort of farm around 15 minutes on one hand. Even if they TP in two heroes you can still get a kill and make it out most of the time.
That is literally it. If they don't respond, you kill the tower. If they respond with one TP you kill the hero then kill the tower. If they respond with 2 or more back off and let your team accomplish something else on the map.
they could never remove the minibash from sniper, it's part of his identity
^
These arguments about arbitrary "hero identities" are silly, and not only that, a lot of them are bad examples.
The hero still would retain what makes him "Troll Warlord" without a built-in bash.
He used to not have that range. Did he suddenly "gain his identity" over the course of a patch now?
you're saying burning mana is not part of am's identity?
His melee/ranged forms need complete retweak, ranged is useless outside laning except for trying to get some final hits, you are in melee form 95% of the time add at LEAST a drawback. Make whirling axes scale, global doesnt need to change people cried about centaurs ult for a long time before finally going silent. Adding a cooldown on bash won't change anything, you are bashed for 2 seconds, how long should the cd be, 5 secs, 10 secs?? Spirit Breaker has a cd on his bash and I still get bashlorded by him into death no problem. Bash IS HIS identity, along with attack speed. AM is mana burn blink split pusher, medusa is tanky rapier holder, 1 single trait doesn't define their identities...it's at least two
No, I'm saying he used to have two forms of mana burn, and if that was still around today, you probably would have argued that he's the anti-mage and he needs all that mana burning.
His melee/ranged forms need complete retweak, ranged is useless outside laning except for trying to get some final hits, you are in melee form 95% of the time add at LEAST a drawback. Make whirling axes scale, global doesnt need to change people cried about centaurs ult for a long time before finally going silent. Adding a cooldown on bash won't change anything, you are bashed for 2 seconds, how long should the cd be, 5 secs, 10 secs?? Spirit Breaker has a cd on his bash and I still get bashlorded by him into death no problem. Bash IS HIS identity, along with attack speed. AM is mana burn blink split pusher, medusa is tanky rapier holder, 1 single trait doesn't define their identities...it's at least two
That's right, troll does have two "identities". Global attack speed bonus, and attack speed when attacking the same target. Hell, if you want to go 3, the ability to switch between Melee and Ranged.
- Status