Wok
Member
Of course, this is what I usually do with Lycan.
However, the "Wolves need no armor"' achievement requires a 0/0/0 Kill/Death/Assist score. This does not work in practice.
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DOTA 2 |OT9| League of Ancients (6.84)
- Thread starter Teknopathetic
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Of course, this is what I usually do with Lycan.
However, the "Wolves need no armor"' achievement requires a 0/0/0 Kill/Death/Assist score. This does not work in practice.
he never had extra range?
tweaking numbers on stuff like shapeshift and metamorphosis isn't the same as outright gutting a hero's identity via outright removal. I.E. troll bash getting an internal cooldown or doing 0 damage =/= remove bash. Sniper getting his absurd range buffed to even more absurd levels in an effort to make him viable isn't changing his identity at all, hell it enhances it.
berserker's rage gives a lot of extra fat in the same way that shapeshift did, I'd rather see the health and base armor go over the bash.
Wok
Member
Yes, I took the video literally and it does not work. What you said makes a lot more sense. In fact, I realize that this is what I usually do with Lycan. With some good success (60% winrate in 55 games, less than 2 KDA on average).
No, it just wasn't that great of range before. I still don't see how bash is part of troll's "identity" and is even remotely fair for this jack of all trades hero to have.
By this logic, I know some hero "identities" that completely changed.
Phantom Lancer losing Doppelwalk, and being completely reworked.
Bloodseeker being completely reworked.
Now granted they still serve the same purpose they used to before the rework, their skills were changed quite a bit. If Troll's bash was removed, the hero would still serve the same purpose he is intended to, he just wouldn't be able to do everything, the kitchen sink, and bash you.
the entire point of remaking a hero is to change or alter their identity for one reason or another, usually because they aren't that fun or popular for the vast majority of people, or their skillset isn't very unique. You can't equate completely remaking a hero to nerfing troll warlord, well I guess you technically can, but it's a pretty awful comparison.
Troll is too strong right now, sure. But I think there are much much much better ways of nerfing him than removing the bash outright--bashing + attack speed has pretty much been at the core of the hero since his inception in dota 1. Stuff like being ultra tanky, having great stats, fast MS, low mana costs, global/team-wide ulti, these are all fair game to me that you can adjust without taking away from Jah'rakal.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Hey bokr, how would you amend Troll at this point? Or is he okay as is in your opinion?
Wok
Member
Plus Troll is actually fun to play. The whole concept of switching melee/ranged makes the laning stage and fights a lot of fun.
Are those two heroes identities really altered very much? The way they play obviously is, but they effectively do the same thing, just in a more efficient or different manner. Bloodseeker still ruptures people, regains health from last hitting, sees low health people. Phantom Lancer still makes a billion goddamn illuisons and is still a slippery fucker to catch. These are the same identities these heroes had before.
It absolutely is comparable to remaking a hero, I seriously doubt it will happen, but if the froggy wanted to, he could theoretically remake troll from scratch to nerf him.
I'd go about it one of two ways:
1) He no longer gets +100 HP and +3 armor from melee form. He already has great stat gains, he builds tanky, he has a built in miss chance, and he moves fast. He doesn't need this extra survivability, and it would be an enormous nerf to his laning.
2) His ulti no longer affects allies. Add in an aghs that does this (but this isn't really necessary). So he's still the same fun old troll, but he no longer 100% guarantees the late game at the draft screen, and doesn't have insane team utility to go with his already insane base kit.
Anyhow, I don't mean to be overly antagonistic towards you, hylian. A hero's identity varies from person to person, and to me, when I first started playing dota1 8 some years ago and picked up troll, I immediately identified with his attack speed and bash. That is the hero to me. This might be different to you or someone else, and so removing bash is a fair suggestion, just not one that I agree with.
Troll has interesting strengths, but not interesting weaknesses, you're right. He needs weaknesses. In my opinion that should be awful base survivability, because he should derive his survivability from his item build, miss chance, and racecar speed. That's just my opinion anyhow.
You say my idea is "changing his identity", yet you suggest this, which is definitely his identity in the first place? You have a huge double standard here.
I would have no problem though with not having the ult be global though.
SteveWinwood
Member
hey bokr whats your favorite color
To me, this is akin to Doom's ulti no longer affecting passives until you get aghs.
I'm speaking as a dota1 player here hylian, this is just something you won't understand, because the troll you know is strictly from dota 2. Troll will always be the fast attacking berserker bashlord from dota1 to me, and the global ultimate was not a part of it, nor was buffing allies in any way, shape, or form. This is why the ultimate is my ideal for a nerf.
hey steve, it's blue
Dreams-Visions
Member
Sounds good to me.
Fervor was an aura and Rampage was his old ult that only effected him(plus increased movement speed). Than they got swapped and fervor was a troll only ability and Rampage was replaced with the Battle Trance we have now. Troll was always able to increase the attack speed of his allies but not to the same extent as today, Beastmasters aura was actually better than old Fervor.
Not allowed, you have to go 0/0/0, so you have to run every time.
ITT: dota 2 babies not understanding that troll is the bash hero. Always and forever.
How does icefrog keep a hero pool as large as dota's viable and interesting? Each hero has to be a unique piece, if two heroes do similar feats the game becomes homogeneous much like how LoL is in its current incarnation.
A majority of you will probably not remember this, but there was a time when Viper and Razor didn't have identifies, they both had a frenzy steroid, razor had a passive eye of the storm and chain lightning, and viper was shadow strike and frenzy. Both of these heroes were just 'meh'.
Or when Skeleton King and Sven both had base storm bolt, and tweaks were made so that each was unique.
The point I'm making is that dota 2 heroes have character because of their uniqueness, which is usually attributed to their skill sets and how they mesh into drafts and teamfights. Removing hero identity is something the frog will never do.
Troll is the bashing, melee asshole that wins 1v1s. Revoke his extra hp and base armor from melee, increase cd of ulti to 40, and scale the aoe of blinding axes, and the hero will be fine.
How does icefrog keep a hero pool as large as dota's viable and interesting? Each hero has to be a unique piece, if two heroes do similar feats the game becomes homogeneous much like how LoL is in its current incarnation.
A majority of you will probably not remember this, but there was a time when Viper and Razor didn't have identifies, they both had a frenzy steroid, razor had a passive eye of the storm and chain lightning, and viper was shadow strike and frenzy. Both of these heroes were just 'meh'.
Or when Skeleton King and Sven both had base storm bolt, and tweaks were made so that each was unique.
The point I'm making is that dota 2 heroes have character because of their uniqueness, which is usually attributed to their skill sets and how they mesh into drafts and teamfights. Removing hero identity is something the frog will never do.
Troll is the bashing, melee asshole that wins 1v1s. Revoke his extra hp and base armor from melee, increase cd of ulti to 40, and scale the aoe of blinding axes, and the hero will be fine.
And sorry, I misspoke when I said remaking a hero is to change or alter their identity. Icefrog usually preserves their identity as a hero, he just refocuses it or makes the base kit more unique. For example, PL's identity to me has always been the mass illusion, confusion hero. His playstyle was altered to be more unique (rather than a second rate TB or Naga), but his core identity was kept intact.
shira
Member
I think you can't have the 0 cast point on whirly
There's more than one "bash hero" in the game now. I don't know who got in the game first, but in today's Dota, we see lots of "bash heroes". Faceless Void, Slardar, and Spirit Breaker all 3 come to mind. Now probably Slardar to a lesser degree as he's more utilized for his ultimate and Crush (if he's picked at all, kappa).
To say that Troll is identified because he can bash just isn't right. He's a berserker and can reach the attack speed ceiling in the game pretty quickly, and not just temporarily like Ursa or Windrunner, I mean quite often, his ultimate's cooldown isn't very long, and he has Fervor too. He also can switch to melee and ranged form at any time, with no delay. No hero in the game does that other than Troll. The closest thing is Lone Druid, which has a few second transformation.
It's just not really clear what ice frog actually wants troll to be. If he's supposed to be the amazing 1v1 man fighter, why does his ult also turn any lineup into an amazing push and team fight draft? It's like he wants troll to be jack of all trades, but forgot the second line of that aphorism.
tiltnkirby
Member
I don't really like a button to just slam that would mess your team up that hard from across the map. If they really wanted to keep the whole team buffing angle from troll, make it a temp aura/buff where some of the buff is given in an aura around him and the rest is given to troll himself, like assault cuirass does for it's attack speed where allies get some of the attack speed from the hyper stone but not all of it.
Melee Basher stacking in ranged form in Dota 1. He'll never be the same, RIP.
Wok
Member
Maybe Troll's ult could take the attack speed from his teammates and give it to Troll. He keeps the bash, but his ult makes his teammates at a disadvantage by applying a debuff to them.
Aghs would fix the debuff, but not apply any buff to teammates.
Anbokr's suggestion looks more like Sven's ult: without aghs, Troll is the only buffed hero ; with aghs, all the team is buffed. Then, at least, like Sven, the ult should be made an aura... and affect creeps as well.
Aghs would fix the debuff, but not apply any buff to teammates.
Anbokr's suggestion looks more like Sven's ult: without aghs, Troll is the only buffed hero ; with aghs, all the team is buffed. Then, at least, like Sven, the ult should be made an aura... and affect creeps as well.
Ok I'm gonna say this once. Hylian you never even played dota 1; you can't even begin to comprehend what hero identity means to the game, let alone try to define it and argue for the sake of your awful balance suggestion. Troll will be fine with a few number tweaks or some slicing of the melee form, the concept of the hero is engaging and fun to play. Don't be so salty because Call of Champions has shit hero design compared to Dota
You know I really hate it when you try to pull this bullshit of "I'm old in Dota years, fuck you, your opinion is worthless." You pull this all the time. And people wonder why Dota communities get a reputation for being elitist.
???
I don't know if VG can win that fearsome match up.This jabs are so next level they don't even make sense.
"Ur not an OG nerd"
3 days: No easy matchups
Supermanisdead
Member
what if troll ult gave him 100% evasion and bash chance was upped to 25%
shira
Member
They got nothing to lose. And they are awesome underdog picks. If VG don't take them seriously
I want basher and ab on troll
SteveWinwood
Member
cool site
Monochromaticx
Member
Hylian back
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