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DOTA2 |OT14| i give up like your pubs do
- Thread starter Artanisix
- Start date
Wok
Member
I already wrote it in the Steam thread, but I just want to write it again here: HotS is my preferred bullet shooter, I pick QoP (Li-Ming) and just mash the keyboard to feel better. In one game, I ended up with 200k siege damage. The game is just perfect to this extent.
Previously, I was having some fun with the Slark-Tinker mash-up (Bourbie): run at people, pounce and deal incredible damage.
I would love to see IceFrog pick some mechanics from HotS for Dota2. Typically, Tracer going back in time (self-glimpse, kind of Kunkka's X-mark the spot + blink, but casted afterwards instead of prior to the dive), or this Ogre Magi controlled by two players (one for each head).
Edit: Ok, Weaver.
Previously, I was having some fun with the Slark-Tinker mash-up (Bourbie): run at people, pounce and deal incredible damage.
I would love to see IceFrog pick some mechanics from HotS for Dota2. Typically, Tracer going back in time (self-glimpse, kind of Kunkka's X-mark the spot + blink, but casted afterwards instead of prior to the dive), or this Ogre Magi controlled by two players (one for each head).
Edit: Ok, Weaver.
NormalFish
Banned
don't think any one's saying it's a bad thing, so much as simply being one facet of the game.
nobody is outright saying, 'this is a bad game because too casual' but that's clearly the implication...?
the people who are arguing that are the people who don't like overwatch and have been vocally hostile to it in the thread...?
if you dont hate yourself, your team and the other team then it's not a real esport
NormalFish
Banned
I mean I don't like the game a whole lot, and that contributes to my feelings on the game, but the lack of catering to my demographic isn't exactly something new. not the sort of thing to make me hate a game or think its shit, though I certainly won't be paying 40$ to play it.
Wok
Member
poor weaver
Ahah, I am dumb.
I was not thinking of Weaver's ult, because of the cooldown.
But... yeah, that is it: Weaver's ult with X-Mark the spot cooldown.
HotS is melting my brain: you take a hero design from one character of Dota, you give him one spell from another, one ult from another, etc., and finally, you make all the spells spammable.
NormalFish
Banned
Hurtfuli think that it's a bit of a reach to call pro gamers 'your demographic'
Power's out on my whole block but I already took care of errands for the week
Monochromaticx
Member
ROFL
uh no. I outlined why I thought the game isn't a competitive game. Blizzard very much present it as a casual game but at the same time host comp tournaments for it, just like hots and to have a healthy competitive scene you have to have stuff that appeals to your top bracket yeah?
Like i said, nothing wrong with the game, just that if blizz wants a comp game, then why create a game that doesn't have much comp appeal
Fucking Clash Royale is a competitive game and that game's blatantly P2W. Blade and Soul? Pretty fucking big in Korea and most of it is auto combos.
A competitive game isn't strictly a hardcore game or vice versa.
A competitive game isn't strictly a hardcore game or vice versa.
so yeah, any game can call itself competitve if they have money?
Yes.
The two things needed for a competitive game are:
1) A large enough population to support spectators and talent acquisition and third-party investment (ads, teams, merch, tournamnets)
2) Monetary support, either from the community itself or the game developers
If you wanted to actually make an argument for why Overwatch is a poor competitive game, you would talk about the lack of decent spectator options. Casting Overwatch is damn near impossible because there's just too much to keep track of and the action is way too hectic. There's no lulls in the gameplay that would let people get a word in. It's also very difficult for watchers to see what's going on. Outside of highlight reels and lucky camera control, it's impractical to follow "big plays" which is what you need to generate audience excitement, which is what you need to make your game worth exhibiting. For the most part, people are watching shiny lights on the screen, and that can only go so far.
NormalFish
Banned
I don't think I agree with that definition, but I see the argument for it. I think it's odd to put the status of a game as being competitive in the hands of investors. If a game has low skill ceiling and competition only exists by nature of a few tournaments that one company pushes really hard, I don't think I'd consider it conpetitive, regardless of the existance of a compeition.
I define "competitive game" by whether or not it can sustain competition, not some arbitrary metric of "skill".
Perhaps what you mean by "competitive" is "good for tryhards" and in that sense, I agree, Overwatch is not a game for tryhards.
But it never wanted to be.
Perhaps what you mean by "competitive" is "good for tryhards" and in that sense, I agree, Overwatch is not a game for tryhards.
But it never wanted to be.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
Trying to watch overwatch is completely awful.
It really is. If they go the way of Hearthstone in terms of in-game viewing options (i.e. effectively none) it's going to be an uphill climb for Overwatch to become a big spectator esport.
yep the game itself is not conducive to good spectating.
- too busy
- no rest periods
- casters and camera control can't keep up
- it's high noon
fun to watch seagull run a train on people though. good for personal stream services like twitch, bad for competitive spectator sport
NormalFish
Banned
Better than gw2 pvp in terms of readibility, at least.
What you just said I've been saying about Counter Strike since it blew up. The difference between CS and OW to me as a spectator is that OW still has a sense of "big plays" happening the way they do in a MOBA. CS is a lot of positioning and person x killed person y and hopefully the camera was spectating it, but maybe it wasn't. In Overwatch when shit goes down shit actually goes down.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
The problem goes past spectating options, it's in the nature of the game. I will +1 everything in Milk's post.
Past that, consider the genres the game is based on: MOBA and FPS. To appreciate what's going on in a MOBA you need an encompassing view of the action. A spectator needs to be able to understand what's going on in the scheme of the game, but also be able to appreciate how individuals are moving within it. Luckily this is the same view the player sees, so you get to view all the mechanical skill from the same place.
Watching FPS games is harder in general, you need that first person view to really see the skill of the player, and that more than anything is what makes watching FPS compelling. It's great to see team play and strategy come together, but seeing those crazy shots and fast aim is something normal players don't get to experience on their own.
Putting both of these things together makes Overwatch an interesting concept, but how can you begin to watch it effectively? An overhead view allows you to see where the teams are and what they're doing, but you lose the chance to see the technical prowess of the players. Watching this game in first person without just staying on a single camera is far too hectic because of the pacing combined with an immense amount of visual noise.
Resolving this in an effective manner will be very challenging, and considering this will be coming from the same team that has denied the game a minimap as a "design decision", I have no hope whatsoever.
EDIT: responding
Responding point by point.
1) Comparing the visuals of CS to OW is night and day when you're trying to see things going on.
2) No rest periods in CS? In between every round? Couple minute break between halves? Each team tactical pausing once per game between rounds?
3) The pace of counterstrike allows casters and camera to anticipate high impact moments much more easily than in overwatch. Some will of course be missed, and maps are much less railroaded which makes things a little harder, but the pace really makes things easier to follow.
4) I'm assuming you mean "shit going down" meaning a bunch of ultimates going off. That's exciting and all but watching it from a first person view gets really messy, and without a top down or a mini map you don't get a real appreciation of the team's position or tactical approach. Shit goes down in CS as well, teams tend to use utility grenades, flash/smoke, and then explode on to the site. You can make a similar argument about the appreciation of positioning, but things don't move as fast and you get a full screen map and mini map which can be watched to see how people are going in. The set up normally takes much longer as well.
Hearthstone being a competitive game feels like a fluke tbh.
Camera operators in CSGO have issues tracking 10 players, having 12 viewpoints is just too much to capture for a single feed.
Dota 2 has issues too, even with the spectator able to see visible health bars, lots of kills are missed in low kill frequency games.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but the thought of removing a first person view for spectators is not appealing to anyone who cares about the skill of individual players.
Edit: apparently I'm just reiterating what pro has said.
Dota 2 has issues too, even with the spectator able to see visible health bars, lots of kills are missed in low kill frequency games.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but the thought of removing a first person view for spectators is not appealing to anyone who cares about the skill of individual players.
Edit: apparently I'm just reiterating what pro has said.
Wok
Member
What is the problem with introducing a 5-min delay to show the game with the perfect view in competitive FPS?
Like hire a real director to process the best camera views on the fly with a 5-min delay to allow to re-direct missed shots.
NormalFish
Banned
?? CS is incredibly easy to follow. You basically just shoot people. Sometimes you throw grenades. Overwatch suffers from MOBA syndrome in that skirmishes can be extremely hectic, with lots of skill effects and flashy shit going off all at once.
stevewinwood steals everything. he will blatantly thieve anything he can get his hands on, up to and including safelane farm. do NOT trust him.
manfestival
Member
looks like its on track to make 20M
I remember when dota was supposed to get a ui update
misses bull
Banned
misses bull
Banned
I still need to finish the main story of witcher 3
but im playing new vegas instead
but im playing new vegas instead
NormalFish
Banned
witcher 3 will be the first game i get once i upgrade my gpu. wanna play that shit so bad but my gpu just doesn't cut it for cdprojekt games.
If you need help diving back in, Hearts of Stone is great standalone.
Technosteve
Banned
Is there a mod that makes Witcher 3 combat good?
manfestival
Member
I think its being developed by the same people that were going to mod dota 2 into being a good game
Technosteve
Banned
So the tem behind stalker complete mod is going to do a Witcher 3 complete mod?
VP what the hell were you guys thinking?
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/4ls62i/virtuspro_admit_wrongdoing_in_the_summit_5/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/4ls62i/virtuspro_admit_wrongdoing_in_the_summit_5/
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