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DOTA2 |OT14| i give up like your pubs do
- Thread starter Artanisix
- Start date
On topic:
I have 3 questions:
1) How do you get the most out of the offlane? I Don't really struggle much vs 1v2 unless its a strong kill lane and can kill their carry, but when I'm 1v3 I don't know what to do really except for the side camp near the ancients. How do I also gauge well how agressive I can be in a lane? I feel unless I play offlaners I'm comfortable with like Lone druid, Clockwerk, Timbersaw or Nyx I play too passive unless its a 1v1.
2) How do you fit Storm Aghs in item buildup? I feel its a great item when you have a wombo combo team, like having an Axe, Earthshaker, Tidehunter, etc. But my issue is that I never feel like getting it after Bloodstone + Orchid because I always feel like getting Linken's, Shiva's, Sheepstick, Bloodthorn would have more impact. So by the time I start getting it we are already hitting their ancients.
3) Thoughts on SF aghs? I feel like its a good item on paper, but when should you build it over a normal carry sf?
I have 3 questions:
1) How do you get the most out of the offlane? I Don't really struggle much vs 1v2 unless its a strong kill lane and can kill their carry, but when I'm 1v3 I don't know what to do really except for the side camp near the ancients. How do I also gauge well how agressive I can be in a lane? I feel unless I play offlaners I'm comfortable with like Lone druid, Clockwerk, Timbersaw or Nyx I play too passive unless its a 1v1.
2) How do you fit Storm Aghs in item buildup? I feel its a great item when you have a wombo combo team, like having an Axe, Earthshaker, Tidehunter, etc. But my issue is that I never feel like getting it after Bloodstone + Orchid because I always feel like getting Linken's, Shiva's, Sheepstick, Bloodthorn would have more impact. So by the time I start getting it we are already hitting their ancients.
3) Thoughts on SF aghs? I feel like its a good item on paper, but when should you build it over a normal carry sf?
Imp the Dimp
Member
Whenever I saw that my lane was impossible, I'd get an Iron Talon and kill the hard camp over and over and try to sap as much xp in the downtime as possible. Sometimes I just sacked the off lane and went to the jungle. The enemy carry is gonna free farm with or without me anyway when he has a trilane or a support I can't deal with so might as well get something out of my time as well + not feed him kill gold on top of free farm. Depends on the hero though. Beastmaster, Doom and Void (the latter two of which I loved to play OL) can certainly do what I said. Unless you can reliably outplay a lane that is stronger than you in which case you are probably matched up against worse players which should not happen too regularly in theory.
If the enemy lane is not as proficient at laning and zoning, you can try to pull the hard camp into the lane which works rather easily when you know where the enemy supps are.
1. Really depends on the situation. Some lanes you're forced to play passive/wait for creeps under tower, but others like with LD, you can pull the enemy creep wave with the bear and farm safely right outside tower range. Pulling that large camp next to the lane (or contesting them pulling it) is an option too.
2. I've tried it a couple of times and found it pretty useful, but like you said, it does have the issues that other stuff could potentially be more impactful. You might want to get it after Bloodstone and something else. Also keep in mind that it goes through Linkens on all the other targets that you didn't click it onto.
3. I really like it so far for a few reasons:
- Gives you HP via Point Booster and Ogre Club, something SF needs
- 46 soul ceiling = damage boost
- The obvious one: The Aghs ult and heal, which also helps you sustain
You might have to wait until after other stuff, be it Blink, BKB, or whatever, but I think it's worth it.
D
Deleted member 77995
Unconfirmed Member
Today in Dota I learned that if someone wants to last pick wraith king jungle to let them because if you ask them to play an actual role like mid they'll pick alch and have a 22 min AC. I wonder if some people have climbed solely through cheese and them trying to play actual Dota will always end in a disaster.
Had one yesterday where our team (we were a four stack) so far was Bane, Shadow Shaman, Necrophos, and Zeus. The last guy took his sweet time picking, and was losing money after we all loaded in. We kept asking him to pick a carry, gave him some suggestions, he said nothing. Then suddenly he picks Earthshaker and jungles it (Echo Slamming stacks, I'm serious) and says "Fuck you I do what I want"
Obviously what he wanted was to lose.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2401897688
SecretMoblin
Member
I played vs. a 2-stack that went bane/alch mid and bane just kept enfeebling me (i was ember) while alch got fat, and of course everyone sits in their lanes for the first 15 mins
I have to imagine they've gotten pretty far with that cheese
I have to imagine they've gotten pretty far with that cheese
Agree. Some supports when doing well can turn into solo pickoff monsters, but AA always struggles at that I find, at least with a normal/useful item progression. Even at level 3, ice blast is only a 450 damage skillshot nuke, and cold feet takes forever to proc. Maybe you could do something clowny like a ice vortex/dagon build, but that sounds awful.
So you're left getting sensible items (my progression is brown boots-wand-midas-aghs-octarine; I know the ice blast cooldown is low anyway, but with the octarine you can cut their heal uptime to about 50% which seems pretty devastating), and you are heavily dependent on your team to actually win the game.
Thanks for the answers, following up on the offlane, going from both extremes of either dominating the lane or getting dumpstered in it, what are things I can do to be as much of a nuisance to the enemy safelane so the support(s) can't rotate and gank and the carry can't get solo xp?
I already to it mostly with Lone druid when I fish for entangles with the bear and pull the lane. Or in general blocking the spawn camp with a ward.
I'm doing ranked right now and I feel like having impact in the offlane can be really hard (unless they have a weak safelane where I can get kills on the carry or freefarm) because I don't get much farm in general or I pick a hero that can't carry and the rest of my team has a crap early game. So unless I pick say Timbersaw, LD, Axe (having mitigated sucess with him because of bad early game and when he's behind blinking and calling is basically a death sentence).
I don't pick much void because most of the time my team picks a melee centric lineup so I'd have to go carry to make chrono useful.
Should I just stick to mid/carry?
btw, try to get PMS and aquila on ember. For an agility hero, he has a pretty bad agility gain so without items its pretty hard to last hit well in lane. Aquila provides you with good overall stats as well as armor which is great for ember because of the aforementioned reason. Especially in a scenario where you are against alch who will spam acid spray with -armor. the armor from aquila and damage block from PMS will also help since Bane probably was rightclicking you.
Also use flame guard the same way alch uses acid spray, he doesn't have a way to pop it so you can move up and use it to secure last hits.
Also another useful thing I notice pros do and it has helped me mid alot is if you get first bounty rune, use it to buy and deliver a salve immediately so you can trade or shrug off some of the harass before your bottle.
I already to it mostly with Lone druid when I fish for entangles with the bear and pull the lane. Or in general blocking the spawn camp with a ward.
I'm doing ranked right now and I feel like having impact in the offlane can be really hard (unless they have a weak safelane where I can get kills on the carry or freefarm) because I don't get much farm in general or I pick a hero that can't carry and the rest of my team has a crap early game. So unless I pick say Timbersaw, LD, Axe (having mitigated sucess with him because of bad early game and when he's behind blinking and calling is basically a death sentence).
I don't pick much void because most of the time my team picks a melee centric lineup so I'd have to go carry to make chrono useful.
Should I just stick to mid/carry?
I played vs. a 2-stack that went bane/alch mid and bane just kept enfeebling me (i was ember) while alch got fat, and of course everyone sits in their lanes for the first 15 mins
I have to imagine they've gotten pretty far with that cheese
btw, try to get PMS and aquila on ember. For an agility hero, he has a pretty bad agility gain so without items its pretty hard to last hit well in lane. Aquila provides you with good overall stats as well as armor which is great for ember because of the aforementioned reason. Especially in a scenario where you are against alch who will spam acid spray with -armor. the armor from aquila and damage block from PMS will also help since Bane probably was rightclicking you.
Also use flame guard the same way alch uses acid spray, he doesn't have a way to pop it so you can move up and use it to secure last hits.
Also another useful thing I notice pros do and it has helped me mid alot is if you get first bounty rune, use it to buy and deliver a salve immediately so you can trade or shrug off some of the harass before your bottle.
SecretMoblin
Member
thx and yeah, I maxed flame guard first so I could get a few last hits in and take out some jungle camps asap
harass wasn't too much of an issue, but 1/2 levels in enfeeble and basically all I could do was try and soak up levels
we lost all 3 lanes hard and the game was over quick (20 mins) plus elder titan was like 4.5k and I didn't feel bad losing to him, so whatever
and I guess I'm part of the problem because two games later I picked bane for my daily and me and miranda just cheesed a lot with arrow :/
but yes I hate playing mid and most mid heroes except icons like ELDER TITAN, PUCK, OGRE, and LICH, the four best mids
Wok
Member
The worst when playing mid is what happened to you vs Alch+Bane: you are solo versus a stack which runs a cheesy strategy, or you are solo when everyone is rotating to gank you non-stop and yet both sidelanes are lost.
SF Aghs is ownage, I've had a lot of success with it this patch. My build: Aquila > Treads > Shadowblade > Dragon Lance > Aghs > Silver Edge > w/e the game requires
I think sf is pretty underrated this patch, he matches well against a lot of the popular miss and that aghs ulti is monstrous in fights.
thx and yeah, I maxed flame guard first so I could get a few last hits in and take out some jungle camps asap
harass wasn't too much of an issue, but 1/2 levels in enfeeble and basically all I could do was try and soak up levels
we lost all 3 lanes hard and the game was over quick (20 mins) plus elder titan was like 4.5k and I didn't feel bad losing to him, so whatever
and I guess I'm part of the problem because two games later I picked bane for my daily and me and miranda just cheesed a lot with arrow :/
but yes I hate playing mid and most mid heroes except icons like ELDER TITAN, PUCK, OGRE, and LICH, the four best mids
Yeah, its like 109 said in his post regarding alchemist. He's basically make or break based on how much help his team provides him and how much pressure the other team applies. His team clearly helped him alot in the laning stage and It doesn't look like you had good ganking supports.
Alch is a pain vs most melee heroes with the exceptions of Timbersaw and Ursa who both obliterate him.
I don't think bane mirana is cheese, if it is, stuff like Naix bombs would be cheese as well.
Also I think mid is my favorite lane. You can learn alot of things from it like 1v1 matchups, how to manage creep aggro to get last hits, how to balance farming and ganking (on heroes who can do that), getting the habit of doing tp responses.
You also have the greatest impact in the midgame bar a fed hero on your team or supports who actually rotate.
sounds fun. I'm a big fan of sb sf too.
StrongArmSteady
Member
fuck everything...I have been wasting my time trying to 3 star shit quests...
fortunately i have been winning most of my games. LUL Pizzaman
SecretMoblin
Member
i'm better with creep aggro as a harassing lane support, that tsunami vid about creep aggro range helped a ton actually... and pulling the hard camp into the lane was made comically easy on both sides so that isn't hard to do at all
mid just sucks, too much pressure and I'm only really successful with lesh (he's still good) and et with the old max spirit/aura build
edit: well Original Dankster and viper too obviously lol
even with zeus I can only just hold my own
heroes like TAnus and sf and linda and storm and qop and tinker I am just total ass with and I honestly don't even want to figure them out, they just aren't fun to try and manage
I'd much rather play chen/meepo/visage/io than shit like TA or qop
mid just sucks, too much pressure and I'm only really successful with lesh (he's still good) and et with the old max spirit/aura build
edit: well Original Dankster and viper too obviously lol
even with zeus I can only just hold my own
heroes like TAnus and sf and linda and storm and qop and tinker I am just total ass with and I honestly don't even want to figure them out, they just aren't fun to try and manage
I'd much rather play chen/meepo/visage/io than shit like TA or qop
When I say creep aggro, I mean like, You're a melee mid vs a range mid. So he/she/it is more likely to get the deny before your reach the creep, so you aggro the creeps by clicking on the enemy hero so they come to you instead so you can get the last hit without having to take rightclick damage from the other mid.
I think people psych themselves out when it comes to mid. I've dealt with enough people who clearly had no idea how to play the hero I picked flaming me for not going a build that either is bad currently or just wouldn't work vs the enemy lineup that I ignore any input from raging people.
You get flamed as support for also not making decisions that are bad but people reccomend because they think its the right one.
I just like Storm and more recently Puck because they are high skill ceiling heroes. For me, it feels awesome to disjoint stuff with ball lightning or Puck phase shift.
I think people psych themselves out when it comes to mid. I've dealt with enough people who clearly had no idea how to play the hero I picked flaming me for not going a build that either is bad currently or just wouldn't work vs the enemy lineup that I ignore any input from raging people.
You get flamed as support for also not making decisions that are bad but people reccomend because they think its the right one.
I just like Storm and more recently Puck because they are high skill ceiling heroes. For me, it feels awesome to disjoint stuff with ball lightning or Puck phase shift.
SecretMoblin
Member
puck is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy easier to manage than storm though, at least for me
easier to juke, more opportunities to mess with people, more cc, easier mana control, more build variety, etc
and I like to "pull" creeps in lane like that but usually only if I'm carry and the enemy is denying a lot lol
easier to juke, more opportunities to mess with people, more cc, easier mana control, more build variety, etc
and I like to "pull" creeps in lane like that but usually only if I'm carry and the enemy is denying a lot lol
He'll yeah man, you've made a lot of progress in that mid-lane. I still remember when you shredded procarbine's signature Lina back when he spammed that hero (when she was fotm).
This post is so good.
Also you learn so much playing different positions and heroes, it's instrumental in improving as an individual player and how you see the game.
It seems so basic and obvious to say this, but too many people don't do this.
I find the new longer interval of creep aggro "checking" pretty annoying though. I'm not really sure why Icefrog changed that, as the interval had been the same for years. It's not like people just started doing it recently, it's been done for years.
For some reason, I have always had more trouble last hitting against Invoker than any other hero in the game. I really don't know why it is, even if he doesn't go very many Exort, I still have trouble with it. It's only really easy with Tiny, with everyone else it feels like a struggle for CS. Any idea why this is Invoker specifically?
shira
Member
Only certain heroes fit my playstyle preference. I feel like skillshot and RNG based heroes aren't my cup of tea.
Does it? I haven't noticed. The only things related to it that were changed were he aggro interval being set at 2.5, with aggro cooldown is also 2.5, so you basically can't aggro pull as frequently, or hope you did it at the right interval.
It does since you can pull the creeps even further back. It was a good change IMO.
if youre worried about solo carrying just learn meepo
as long as your team doesn't relentlessly feed the enemy slark then you can solo carry the game if you're good
although the optimal way to play meepo IMO is to immediately go jungle once you hit 3 and let your support take xp/farm mid as you actually jungle faster than an enigma if you have iron talon + second meepo
as long as your team doesn't relentlessly feed the enemy slark then you can solo carry the game if you're good
although the optimal way to play meepo IMO is to immediately go jungle once you hit 3 and let your support take xp/farm mid as you actually jungle faster than an enigma if you have iron talon + second meepo
Wok
Member
The best thing when playing Meepo with bad teammates is that you can go afk for several times for 5 minutes, watch your teammates struggle and understand why they cannot teleport to help, why they get ganked, etc., and still be relevant when/if your teammates suddenly decide that it is time to stop afk farm and feed stupidly. I have had several games with the highest XPM and close to the highest GPM in my team with Meepo despite spectating the game for 10 - 15 minutes from the fountain (I would just go get a neutral camp every 5 minutes). It helps to take the time to do so to be less toxic towards teammates that one would normally flame.
I only do this in Normal / High skill brackets.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
great anime is gone
but
we have overwatch now
but
we have overwatch now
SecretMoblin
Member
hm let me try and find some good solo queue meepo pubstars and watch rihplays, I want to learn support meepo
Monochromaticx
Member
How many people are on the dota2 dev team now at valve?
It's no longer high noon.
I'm still trying to figure out how to play him competently.
Enough to be better than blizzards idea of balance
Sigismundo
Member
I dunno, nerfing McCree's tankbusting capabilities seems like a wise move in this case.
Sigismundo
Member
With that said, fanning the hammer probably needs a cooldown as well (other than "reloading"). I have consulted people and that seems to be the consensus.
He clarified it won't likely be a flash nerf.
NormalFish
Banned
Do we even have access to that info?
i should read huh
lv2 pidgey
Member
when you play overwatch for 1 hour and get a legendary mccree skin
also bnet gift cards are literally the worst thing ever
also bnet gift cards are literally the worst thing ever
misses bull
Banned
All I got is sprays
I hate overwatch
I hate overwatch
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
youre so fucking dumb it's insane
waxinlyrical
Member
Is that your opinion as a player who plays more support than carry?
Honestly though: all positions are critical (Dota is very much a team game afterall), but there's definitely undue attention brought to the core roles, because a) hey kills re flashy and cores are going to get more kills (or they should anyway) and b) late game cores have a disproportionally large impact on the outcome of the game, whereas early game supports have a disproportionally large impact on the outcome of the game.
Is that your opinion as a player who plays more support than carry?
Honestly though: all positions are critical (Dota is very much a team game afterall), but there's definitely undue attention brought to the core roles, because a) hey kills re flashy and cores are going to get more kills (or they should anyway) and b) late game cores have a disproportionally large impact on the outcome of the game, whereas early game supports have a disproportionally large impact on the outcome of the game.
i played core a bunch more recently and basically mastered it instantly honestly, i'm sure that if i played nothing but core and didn't feel the need to pick support when the four other people on my team pick hard carries i would be the world's first 10k player
for instance here is a recent game where i played a core hero in a high skill (above my mmr level) and simply exposed and ended them. in fact i believe that for several minutes during this game i actually fell asleep and when i woke up i discovered that i had achieved a rampage.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2378844781
Wok
Member
Wait, isn't that something that I wrote? The awkward "relentlessly feed" might give it out.
Edit: Alright, false alert.
What?
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