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[Madame M]

No doubt. I'm worried it could get even worse if the near universal opinion becomes down syndrome equals insta-abortion. That reality has to be balanced with public efforts to protect and empower people with disabilities.

What public efforts would you suggest? What do you think about the law in North Dakota?

 

[g11]

Offering a solution for childcare post-birth still shouldn't be enough to get abortion off the table. Abortion should be on the table simply because of the stress, both physically and mentally, a pregnancy can put on the mother.

I never said it was. I just said it is the bare minimum. It's step one. Not to mention, considering it's mostly Christian/religious types that are wholly against abortion under any circumstances, not offering that assistance is wholly unchristian. Then again, that's nothing new for a lot of modern Christians.

 

[Westbahnhof]

It would be selfish to keep a baby that you know has downs, the kid will never have a normal life. Abortion really is best for everyone involved in this situation.

That's a pretty strong opinion.
One I view as disgusting, knowing multiple people with downs, happy people with happy parents.
One lady is 68 now.
I can see why someone would abort, but proclaiming that these happy people already alive would have been better of aborted? What the hell.

This while thing is subjective. Don't try to make a "this is best" blanket statement.

 

[VendettaRed07]

You're equating a certain gender with having a disorder. Being a specific sex is not a disorder.

If the argument is that you can't force a child that the parent doesn't want on someone regardless whether or not it's a disorder is irrelevant. If the answer to the question of "can a parent chose what type of child they have" gender is just as legitimate of a reason as any.

 

[Saya]

Do not read the comments on that article...

 

[diaspora]

Might as well develop a test for classical autism and remove those fetuses as well.

Where to stop though.

Depends on the pregnant person wants to do. Entirely.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Icelandic people are a very small community where people are closely related. They have to do this. The chances of birth defects increase the closer related parents are.

 

[Skellig Gra]

I'm sorry that I have an extreme viewpoint compared to some people but the idea of being pregnant and having to support it and deal with all the physical complications is probably the grossest thing I can imagine happening to me. If I wasn't allowed the choice to not have to deal with it I would be pissed.

Please note that I don't hate kids, just the biological process of pregnancy. If I ever have a partner who was willing to adopt and we could support the kid, I'm all for that.

This is about pre-natal screening. Someone with your views would just get the abortion after a pregnancy test. Quite the difference.

 

[bender]

That right there is the difference between a fetus and a person.

And if that fetus never had a chance to be a person? Does their burden outweigh their worth? I dunno. I guess that's the decision for the parent(s).

 

[LegendofJoe]

But why? If the woman wants to make her decision after the initial screening, what's the problem?

Not all women who get pregnant are willing to abort that quickly. For some it can take years to get pregnant or they have to rely on expensive IVF. In cases like this giving the woman the ability to make an accurate, informed decision is the right thing to do.

And I am speaking as someone who has personal experience with this. My now infant daughter was flagged with a high chance of having Turner Syndrome via prenatal genetic screening. My wife and I decided that we wanted to have a more conclusive test done before we decided to abort. We waited a few weeks, had the test done, and found out that she was perfectly healthy. I am thankful everyday that we decided to wait.

 

[[KoRp]Jazzman]

I don't have a fundamental issue with the choice, although the wording in some of these posts here is very worrying - there's a huge number of people with Downs that would take exception to the notion that they'd be better off having never been born...

But I find the tone here to be a little bit like this is a statistic that's to be proud of, like Iceland has defeated Downs or something.

This is my problem as well. I am pro choice and I have no issues with people choosing to abort if they are confident the child will be born with it. But the championing of ending Downs Syndrome comes off wrong in the article, and isn't helping push a positive message about the right to a choice and the outcomes that it brings.

But I also differ than a lot of people because I find it upsetting that people will comment that they would abort the child because of the hardships it would cause them. If you are having children that should be the least of your concern. I would chose to abort because it would weigh heavily on me if I knew my child had a substantial risk for complications and I selfishly pushed ahead with it anyway, thus robbing them the chance at a healthy life.

Genetic modification to remove conditions such as these can't come soon enough.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

What public efforts would you suggest? What do you think about the law in North Dakota?

I'm not familiar with the law in North Dakota (what is it?) but I simply envision strong enforcement of anti-discrimination laws and public awareness campaigns geared towards humanizing individuals with disabilities. I'm not talking about anything targeted at coercing pregnant women.

 

[SomePerson]

As an autistic person, I'm really not looking forward to what will largely be the eradication of autistic people when a screening for autism is inevitably found. It's depressing that society has already dictated that our lives aren't worth living.

I WAS largely low functioning for most of my childhood with tons of meltdowns and difficultly with communication. I have a very clear childhood memory of my mom, while frustrated with me, saying to a friend that she wished she'd never had me. I've gotten better at handling things that trigger meltdowns and am generally a pretty functional person now, although it's still damn near impossible for me to hold down a job. Still, I consider my life worthwhile and having value regardless of all the ups and downs. I know for a fact that if my parents could have found out I was autistic before birth, I wouldn't be here right now. It's just so depressing when I read threads like this and see how eager some people are to be rid of us.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Don't focus on any disorder. Focus on choice is choice.

We don't need to stigmatize those living with any disorder to morally justify abortion.

 

[mavo]

Third wave eugenics.

Man i always found so disgusting how people can't talk so much about other people's happines just like that, i mean is not like i know a lot of people with down syndrome but i have met a few and im sure they are glad to be alive.

 

[spons]

But they haven't discovered the genetics for it yet. Women, like myself, do terminate for Fragile X. It's the only genetically linked form of autism.

I know this. I have Autism.

My point was that forcing people to care for children who need lots of medical care and could potentially not make it in society is wrong. Esspecially if those parents can't adequately provide for that child.

I have autism and I know first hand about the problems involved for not only the person with the disorder, but also the burden on the family. For what it's worth, I am 27 and live with my mother. I cannot provide for her or myself so I am on welfare checks. While this is far from being poor around these parts (but also never comparable to having an proper income, something people tend to forget or just ignore), it's suboptimal. The situation could have been averted: the only point I tried to make was that autism is a valid reason to terminate a pregnancy. Not because it's comparable to down syndrome, but because it's a mental disorder that's atrocious for anyone involved.

 

[Bolivar687]

It's unthinkably barbaric and I really hope we place a larger emphasis on bioethics for the next generation of physicians and biologists.

 

[aeolist]

That's a pretty strong opinion.
One I view as disgusting, knowing multiple people with downs, happy people with happy parents.
One lady is 68 now.
I can see why someone would abort, but proclaiming that these happy people already alive would have been better of aborted? What the hell.

This while thing is subjective. Don't try to make a "this is best" blanket statement.

saying that it's absolutely better for women to abort fetuses that test positive for downs is just as dumb and awful as trying to legislate abortion restrictions to keep people from doing it at all.

if you believe in abortion rights then you believe in choice, which means keeping downs babies is just as valid as aborting them. as soon as you start down the road to prescriptivism in either direction you end up in bad places.

 

[PdotMichael]

I'm sorry that I have an extreme viewpoint compared to some people but the idea of being pregnant and having to support it and deal with all the physical complications is probably the grossest thing I can imagine happening to me. If I wasn't allowed the choice to not have to deal with it I would be pissed.

Please note that I don't hate kids, just the biological process of pregnancy. If I ever have a partner who was willing to adopt and we could support the kid, I'm all for that.

Yeah, my previous post basically stated a big "fuck you, deal with it". It's like there is either no abortions or laissez-faire.

 

[Kthulhu]

It's unthinkably barbaric and I really hope we place a larger emphasis on bioethics for the next generation of physicians and biologists.

So we should be forcing women to have children they don't want and possibly aren't equipped to care for? How is that ethical?

 

[spons]

As an autistic person, I'm really not looking forward to what will largely be the eradication of autistic people when a screening for autism is inevitably found. It's depressing that society has already dictated that our lives aren't worth living.

I WAS largely low functioning for most of my childhood with tons of meltdowns and difficultly with communication. I have a very clear childhood memory of my mom, while frustrated with me, saying to a friend that she wished she'd never had me. I've gotten better at handling things that trigger meltdowns and am generally a pretty functional person now, although it's still damn near impossible for me to hold down a job. Still, I consider my life worthwhile and having value regardless of all the ups and downs. I know for a fact that if my parents could have found out I was autistic before birth, I wouldn't be here right now. It's just so depressing when I read threads like this and see how eager some people are to be rid of us.

You're wrong in your grasp of the situation. You're here now so you should get all the help you can get. Nobody is going to eradicate people with autism. The only argument being made is for early detection of autism in fetuses and to inform, educate and give the choice of possible termination of pregnancy. Nobody is going to get rid of anybody.

 

[Jeronimo Jones]

There are some bold statements in here dismissing the worth of a life with Down's syndrome that don't seem malicious, but we should remember these are opinions not universal law.

I just hope most people don't take the decision to abort for genetic reasons lightly.

 

[JeTmAn81]

So we should be forcing women to have children they don't want and possibly aren't equipped to care for? How is that ethical?

This argument could be applied to people with children who've already been born as well. Who are we to force people to care for their children? It should be ok to abandon them on the street.

 

[DarkKyo]

And if that fetus never had a chance to be a person? Does their burden outweigh their worth? I dunno. I guess that's the decision for the parent(s).

"Fetus never had a chance?" I think that's a fruitless argument. How many sperm never get the chance to become a fetus? Why does any of that even matter when every subtle action or inaction alters the lives of future individuals in ways we could not even begin to fathom or understand? Does it even matter which minds get to poof into existence and which do not?

That's why the lives of those who already exist matter most, because reality is such that we consider the lives of real people before those of the hypothetical or potential.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

It's unthinkably barbaric and I really hope we place a larger emphasis on bioethics for the next generation of physicians and biologists.

I don't even know what I'm supposed to say about this ignorant post..

Bioethics has been included so much in the education of physicians and biologists nowadays that I think you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

 

[Kthulhu]

This argument could be applied to people with children who've already been born as well. Who are we to force people to care for their children? It should be ok to abandon them on the street.

You aren't. You can put children up for adoption if you don't want them.

 

[Madame M]

I'm not familiar with the law in North Dakota (what is it?) but I simply envision strong enforcement of anti-discrimination laws and public awareness campaigns geared towards humanizing individuals with disabilities. I'm not talking about anything targeted at coercing pregnant women.

https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/a...-a-bad-way-to-stop-selective-abortion/274676/

"Women in North Dakota, therefore, can no longer choose abortion based upon a prenatal diagnosis of anything from Down syndrome (the most common chromosomal condition, which now comes with a life expectancy of 60) to anencephaly, in which a fetus' cerebral cortex does not develop and an early death is certain."

North Dakota did pretty much go the typical anti-discrimination law route. Protections for people with genetic "abnormalities" while affording no protections to people with "normal" genetics.

Not all women who get pregnant are willing to abort that quickly. For some it can take years to get pregnant or they have to rely on expensive IVF. In cases like this giving the woman the ability to make an accurate, informed decision is the right thing to do.

I see, so it seems like you don't really have a problem with women making their choice at any time, thanks for clarifying.

 

[thehypocrite]

It's unthinkably barbaric and I really hope we place a larger emphasis on bioethics for the next generation of physicians and biologists.

But they aren't making the choices, just providing information.

 

[Fallout-NL]

That's not eliminating Down Syndrome. That's eliminating people with Down Syndrome.

Come the fuck on.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Don't focus on any disorder. Focus on choice is choice.

We don't need to stigmatize those living with any disorder to morally justify abortion.

I think people are concerned about the reverse. Not stigmatization leading to abortion of the disabled, but widespread abortion of the disabled leading to profound stigmatization.

https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/a...-a-bad-way-to-stop-selective-abortion/274676/

"Women in North Dakota, therefore, can no longer choose abortion based upon a prenatal diagnosis of anything from Down syndrome (the most common chromosomal condition, which now comes with a life expectancy of 60) to anencephaly, in which a fetus' cerebral cortex does not develop and an early death is certain."

North Dakota did pretty much go the typical anti-discrimination law route. Protections for people with genetic "abnormalities" while affording no protections to people with "normal" genetics.

That's a terrible law, and isn't at all what I'm talking about. I don't believe we should curtail a woman's right to choose, but we should be mindful of how widespread prenatal screening and trends like those in Iceland will impact our society going forward.

 

[N7.Angel]

"Good".

 

[necrosis]

this is amazing

 

[Westbahnhof]

saying that it's absolutely better for women to abort fetuses that test positive for downs is just as dumb and awful as trying to legislate abortion restrictions to keep people from doing it at all.

if you believe in abortion rights then you believe in choice, which means keeping downs babies is just as valid as aborting them. as soon as you start down the road to prescriptivism in either direction you end up in bad places.

I agree with the first part, completely.
Saying "all X should be aborted" is as crazy to me as "abortions should be illegal".

I don't think the second part is correct though. Many people believe in limits of some kind. What week, and so on.
It's easy to end up un an extreme place, but I don't think it's necessarily unavoidable.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Downs is a cruel and tragic joke. Good riddance.

Can you elaborate on this please?

 

[StoneFox]

This is about pre-natal screening. Someone with your views would just get the abortion after a pregnancy test. Quite the difference.

Yes, there is a clear difference there since that is more of moral decision for them. Whatever their choice after that, however, is more power to them.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

Ok Ted Cruz, how about this...abortion can be illegal, but single-payer healthcare and universal income have to be instated.

 

[HellforLeather]

Third wave eugenics.

This is kinda how I was feeling about the article. The issue is if you believe that a woman has the right to an abortion, regardless of the reason why, then you have to accept that there are people out there that will option for an abortion for reasons you dont agree with. This story is a prime example or even for the fetus not being the parent's preferred gender.

Personally, I don't think I would ever opt for an abortion, but I dont think my feelings on the matter should be legislated to people who dont hold the same beliefs. Women should have the right to chose regardless of my, or anyone else's opinions on the matter.

 

[Mael]

I'm not the one bearing the baby, it's not my choice either way.
As long as the choice is not coerced I don't think I have anything to say about this.

 

[Astral Dog]

I thought this was good

 

[aeolist]

I agree with the first part, completely.
Saying "all X should be aborted" is as crazy to me as "abortions should be illegal".

I don't think the second part is correct though. Many people believe in limits of some kind. What week, and so on.
It's easy to end up un an extreme place, but I don't think it's necessarily unavoidable.

viability is the only standard that makes sense. abortion for any and all reasons up to that point should be free and legal, like any other medical procedure.

legislating against abortions for pre-viable fetuses is literally forcing women to support another life with their body, which is explicitly against legal standards in other areas and thus discriminates against women.

 

[PaulBizkit]

This sounds great. Whatever the reasons for aborting may be, knowing that Down's Syndrome is being eradicating is great news.

If the people from Iceland want kids without DS, then perfect. It's THEIR choice.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Downs is a cruel and tragic joke. Good riddance.

I'm going to respond to this as calmly as I can because it got me really heated.

One thing people should probably avoid saying is that this is about "saving a child from a life time of suffering", because anyone who works with, knows or has family members who are mentally disabled will be able to tell you exactly how suggesting that because they are different their life isn't worth living is frankly a heartless and disgusting thing to imply. There are millions of people with disabilities who live happy lives and are cared about loved just as much as anyone else. I'd like to know if you would be able to look in the eyes of all those children and say that they are a cruel joke and the world would be better off with out them. My guess is you wouldn't have the guts.

 

[perfectchaos007]

This is kinda how I was feeling about the article. The issue is, if you believe that a woman has the right to an abortion, regardless of the reason why, then you have to accept that there are people out there that will option for an abortion for reasons you dont agree with. This story is a prime example or even for the fetus not being the parent's preferred gender.

Personally, I don't think I would ever opt for an abortion, but I dont think my feelings on the matter should be legislated to people who dont hold the same beliefs. Women should have the right to chose regardless of my, or anyone else's opinions on the matter.

Yep, theres a reason China has 33 million more men than women ( and that number is growing ). Even though the 1 child policy is no more, families still want their first child to be a boy so many female fetuses are aborted.

 

[Mael]

viability is the only standard that makes sense. abortion for any and all reasons up to that point should be free and legal, like any other medical procedure.

legislating against abortions for pre-viable fetuses is literally forcing women to support another life with their body, which is explicitly against legal standards in other areas and thus discriminates against women.

This too.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Having lived with a sibling with severe disabilities I can't blame parents one fucking second for choosing to abort a child when discovered to have those conditions.

It's a huge fucking life changing sacrafice and NO ONE gives a good god damn fucking shit to help. None of these "pro-life" conservatives were there to help during the seizures, during the violent temper tantrums from a teenager with severe brain damage. They didn't help wipe up feces, or mop up urine, or clean bite wounds.

My mother felt very strongly about not having abortions and we respect her choice but none of her good christian friends came by the house and offered to help with care. Not fucking once. No, they claim god punished my mother for her sins.

So this is a personal subject for me. When my wife was pregnant we had a LONG heartfelt conversation about it. And no decision like this is easy. She gave her views and I gave mine and thankfully we both agreed: If test showed severe brain damage or huge disabilities like this we'd abort. Ultimate we both agreed it was her body and I'd support her decision no matter what but we both understood the burden it would bring and the unfair life with no support.

If conservatives want less abortions they need to offer support and services to people to help with with their kids. Cause even to this day my sister requires 24/7 around the clock care. And no one but our immediate family gives a rats ass. Just like someone may abort due to being unable to provide for a child or unable to bear the burden of a child at that stage. Their body. Their choice.

Easy to have these high-minded ethical mental masturbation sessions when you're not bleaching up shit at 3am.

 

[bender]

"Fetus never had a chance?" I think that's a fruitless argument. How many sperm never get the chance to become a fetus? Why does any of that even matter when every subtle action or inaction alters the lives of future individuals in ways we could not even begin to fathom or understand? Does it even matter which minds get to poof into existence and which do not?

That's why the lives of those who already exist matter most, because reality is such that we consider the lives of real people before those of the hypothetical or potential.

Fruitless is comparing sperm that never found an egg to a fetus that if carried to term has a high probability of having Down Syndrome. I'm not advocating anyone keep the child but aborting every instance of a positive screening has me conflicted.

I'm going to respond to this as calmly as I can because it got me really heated.

One thing people should probably avoid saying is that this is about "saving a child from a life time of suffering", because anyone who works with, knows or has family members who are mentally disabled will be able to tell you exactly how suggesting that because they are different their life isn't worth living is frankly a heartless and disgusting thing to imply. There are millions of people with disabilities who live happy lives and are cared about loved just as much as anyone else. I'd like to know if you would be able to look in the eyes of all those children and say that they are a cruel joke and the world would be better off with out them. My guess is you wouldn't have the guts.

Comments like those aren't worthy of your time to respond to.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Many people are quick to label someone else's life as not worth living, but there's no objective standard for that. There's only "it's not as good as my life". Of course, those people's lives wouldn't be worth living compared to the elites of the world.

 

[HellforLeather]

Yep, theres a reason China has 33 million more men than women ( and that number is growing ). Even though the 1 child policy is no more, families still want their first child to be a boy so many female fetuses are aborted.

Yep, and I personally find this incredibly distasteful but I dont see how you could ever set a legal middle ground for this. Either the government has some level of control over a womans reproductive rights, or they dont. I would say that they should not.

 

[nekkid]

Many people are quick to label someone else's life as not worth living, but there's no objective standard for that. There's only "it's not as good as my life". Of course, those people's lives wouldn't be worth living compared to the elites of the world.

Those people's lives are probably less fulfilling than some peoples' with Downs.

Yep, and I personally find this incredibly distasteful but I dont see how you could ever set a legal middle ground for this. Either the government has some level of control over a womans reproductive rights, or they dont. I would say that they should not.

But the one child rule was effectively that.

 

[SMattera]

As someone with two disabled siblings, neither of which has down syndrome, but both of which suffer from major cognitive disabilities: good.

I'm not saying everyone who has down syndrome or any other disorder doesn't have a life worth living (although in some cases, that's absolutely true). But life is hard. It's hard enough when you have your full mental faculties.