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Dragon Ball Super |OT8| There is no justice or evil, only survival or erasure.

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H

HeroR

Member
Rutger said:
That he needs to stop carelessly putting everyone he cares about at risk because he wants a good fight.

It's been happening since Piccolo, and I'm not sure if he will learn in this arc after they added that halfassed bit about him actually saving a universe in order to shift blame away from him.
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Not sure how it was half-ass since it's within Zen'o's character and the manga laid it on even thicker. Goku's selfishness having overall good results also isn't anything new, Vegeta for example.

And even if Goku does kill everyone because he's fight happy, he isn't going to change. The sooner fans accept that, the happier they will be.
 
R

Rutger

Banned
HeroR said:
Not sure how it was half-ass since it's within Zen'o's character and the manga laid it on even thicker. Goku's selfishness having overall good results also isn't anything new, Vegeta for example.

And even if Goku does kill everyone because he's fight happy, he isn't going to change. The sooner fans accept that, the happier they will be.
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I don't really hate anything going on in super, I enjoy it a lot and am certainly not unhappy with it, haha.

I take it all for what it is, and none of it really gets to me. Dragon Ball isn't exactly a strongly written series and likely never will be, but I do also like to discuss what's going on in the story, it's fun. So if Goku never changes as a character then oh well, it's not a big deal.

Anyways, yes, Goku's selfishness tends to ultimately end fine, and that's interesting. A lot of people complain about Goku's character in Super, but looking back at how often he has lucked out when making careless choices I think it makes sense that we've reached Super Goku. So from there I think it would be very interesting to have an arc where his carelessness finally causes massive problems. That's what this arc looked like it was going to be, but then they added the disappointing line about him actually saving a universe. Sure it's not out of character for the Zenos, but it's difficult to not look at it as the writers getting cold feet about making Goku the cause of these problems, which is why it feels "half-assed" to me.

Well, that's about it I guess.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Rutger said:
I don't really hate anything going on in super, I enjoy it a lot and am certainly not unhappy with it, haha.

I take it all for what it is, and none of it really gets to me. Dragon Ball isn't exactly a strongly written series and likely never will be, but I do also like to discuss what's going on in the story, it's fun. So if Goku never changes as a character then oh well, it's not a big deal.

Anyways, yes, Goku's selfishness tends to ultimately end fine, and that's interesting. A lot of people complain about Goku's character in Super, but looking back at how often he has lucked out when making careless choices I think it makes sense that we've reached Super Goku. So from there I think it would be very interesting to have an arc where his carelessness finally causes massive problems. That's what this arc looked like it was going to be, but then they added the disappointing line about him actually saving a universe. Sure it's not out of character for the Zenos, but it's difficult to not look at it as the writers getting cold feet about making Goku the cause of these problems, which is why it feels "half-assed" to me.

Well, that's about it I guess.
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Didn't say anything about you hating Super. I said that Goku isn't going to change no matter what trauma you put him through. He will continue to put a good fight above all else, that is his character.

Super Goku isn't really that different from Z, except Goku in Super is more scene more so you see his goofy moments more instead of him being a plot device.

As for the writers' getting cold-feet, as have been pointed out Super's script is written months ahead of time. They don't just change something last minute, especially when the manga makes it even more blatant. It is more that fans being disappointed that Goku's actions doesn't have negative consequences.
 
R

Rutger

Banned
HeroR said:
Didn't say anything about you hating Super. I said that Goku isn't going to change no matter what trauma you put him through. He will continue to put a good fight above all else, that is his character.
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Okay.

I said I don't mind if Goku doesn't change, but I still enjoy discussing ways they could go about allowing him to grow as a character.
HeroR said:
Super Goku isn't really that different from Z, except Goku in Super is more scene more so you see his goofy moments more instead of him being a plot device.
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Yeah, we agree on this. That's roughly what my post was getting at.
HeroR said:
As for the writers' getting cold-feet, as have been pointed out Super's script is written months ahead of time. They don't just change something last minute, especially when the manga makes it even more blatant. It is more that fans being disappointed that Goku's actions doesn't have negative consequences.
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Well, there is a delay between when a manga chapter is made and when it is published as well, and that didn't stop Toriyama from making things up as he went(he has not been shy about admitting to that, haha). Anyways, there's really no way to say when it was decided to make it so Goku is unintentionally saving a universe, maybe it was in Toriyama's outline right away or maybe not.

Anyways, the point of that was simply that I don't care for how the story was handled with this. We've gotten too far away from the thing I was interested in talking about.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Rutger said:
Okay.

I said I don't mind if Goku doesn't change, but I still enjoy discussing ways they could go about allowing him to grow as a character.

Yeah, we agree on this. That's roughly what my post was getting at.


Well, there is a delay between when a manga chapter is made and when it is published as well, and that didn't stop Toriyama from making things up as he went(he has not been shy about admitting to that, haha). Anyways, there's really no way to say when it was decided to make it so Goku is unintentionally saving a universe, maybe it was in Toriyama's outline right away or maybe not.

Anyways, the point of that was simply that I don't care for how the story was handled with this. We've gotten too far away from the thing I was interested in talking about.
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Fair.

If something appeared in both the anime and manga, chances are it is Toriyama's idea and not something shoehorned, especially since Toyo has no problem doing his own thing. Toriyama also really can't just make things up like in the manga days since the anime takes months to produced. The anime needs a story script, break that script up into episodes, and character designs before a single page is animated, which also takes weeks even with Super's production. Toriyama can't just changed things at the last minute.
 
R

Rutger

Banned
HeroR said:
Fair.

If something appeared in both the anime and manga, chances are it is Toriyama's idea and not something shoehorned, especially since Toyo has no problem doing his own thing. Toriyama also really can't just make things up like in the manga days since the anime takes months to produced. The anime needs a story script, break that script up into episodes, and character designs before a single page is animated, which also takes weeks even with Super's production. Toriyama can't just changed things at the last minute.
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Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if anime has a tighter schedule than with manga, if only because there's far more people involved in its production.

Makes me really curious how Toriyama goes about creating his outlines though. I wonder if he is already working on the next arc, when did he start/will he start, how many rough drafts he goes through or does he wing a lot of it, and does he get outside help(that Dragon Ball Room thing sounded like it would be helping him out).
 
F

Fulminator

Member
Laiza said:
You mean the multiplier is real. The one during the Freeza saga is the only one that exists (for SS that is - KK is obviously another matter). Everything after that point has no official numbers and frankly - I prefer it that way.

Everything just falls apart once you start getting into the base form madness that exists in Super. Especially stuff like Copy Vegeta vs SS3 Gotenks and base form Goku vs Beerus in a suit. If multipliers are still canon at this point (and I'm fully convinced that Toriyama puts far less thought into this stuff than the fan base does), well, shit gets pretty stupid really damn fast.

I still don't know how to make sense of Hit vs SSBKKx10 Goku.
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Super Saiyan 2 and 3 have official numbers

Copy Vegeta is easy, Vegeta's base is stronger than Gotenks base x400

The beerus one is just dumb lol

But you are pretty much right the multipliers are meaningless at this point. They do exist though.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Rutger said:
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if anime has a tighter schedule than with manga, if only because there's far more people involved in its production.

Makes me really curious how Toriyama goes about creating his outlines though. I wonder if he is already working on the next arc, when did he start/will he start, how many rough drafts he goes through or does he wing a lot of it, and does he get outside help(that Dragon Ball Room thing sounded like it would be helping him out).
Click to expand...

Most likely yes since the script needs to be written. For reference, Toriyama started writing the Future Trunks Saga in Oct-Nov 2015 and finished in Feb 2016. The Champa Saga began airing in Jan of that year.
 
F

Fj0823

Member
The Silver said:
Ah are you saying Goku has finally joined the prestigious group of people who did nothing wrong?

Griffith
Shou Tucker
Kira
Gendo Ikari
Bondrewd(new member)

Look at this great group of people, what an honor for Goku.
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needs more MCU Tony Stark and Steve Rogers
 
SolVanderlyn

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Super Goku is interesting to me precisely because he is the same as he's always been, but the fans, the writers, and the characters around him are all now far more self aware of the flaws in his personality. It's like when some big name actor comes out of retirement and keeps doing things the way they did them back in the 70's and accidentally says something racist. Woops, that's not ok now!

It's why I think Goku will always stick around (mostly for marketing/business reasons of "we can't get rid of the main character, we've tried") but will be written out of other conflicts for other heroes somehow (maybe taking Beerus' position as GoD. I dunno). The new generation seems more fit for a new era. I mean, that sounds obvious when it's put that way, but you know what I mean. Uub is coming soon too, I think.

But yeah, if I were to take a guestimate, I look forward to Hit vs. Goku rival episodes in conjunction with Cabba/Gohan and friends saving the day. I just hope the androids stick around in a more prominent role too. Their abilities are really cool.
 
Z

Zalman

Member
SolVanderlyn said:
Super Goku is interesting to me precisely because he is the same as he's always been, but the fans, the writers, and the characters around him are all now far more self aware of the flaws in his personality. It's like when some big name actor comes out of retirement and keeps doing things the way they did them back in the 70's and accidentally says something racist. Woops, that's not ok now!
Click to expand...
Personally I don't agree. I recently read the manga again and the contrast is strong. Back then Goku knew when to take things seriously. Goku didn't wake up in the Cell saga being goofy, which is something that's easily imaginable in Super. I'm not saying he wasn't carefree back then, and I don't want him to lose that side of him, but I feel this is a case where specific personality traits are being exaggerated. Kind of like what they did in Persona Q, if any of you have played that game.
 
D

Daingurse

Member
The Goku I grew up with is unrecognizable when contrasted with the Goku in Super, thanks to all the dub changes they made back in the day.

"I AM THE HOPE OF THE UNIVERSE. ALLY TO GOOD! NIGHTMARE TO YOU!"

Edit: Side-note, I recently got the S.H. Figuarts Nappa and I really like it!
CPEQs2N.jpg
Click to expand...

NAeqkv4r.jpg
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Now if they don't put Nappa in FighterZ, I can atleast have him in physical form!
 
H

HeroR

Member
SolVanderlyn said:
Super Goku is interesting to me precisely because he is the same as he's always been, but the fans, the writers, and the characters around him are all now far more self aware of the flaws in his personality. It's like when some big name actor comes out of retirement and keeps doing things the way they did them back in the 70's and accidentally says something racist. Woops, that's not ok now!

It's why I think Goku will always stick around (mostly for marketing/business reasons of "we can't get rid of the main character, we've tried") but will be written out of other conflicts for other heroes somehow (maybe taking Beerus' position as GoD. I dunno). The new generation seems more fit for a new era. I mean, that sounds obvious when it's put that way, but you know what I mean. Uub is coming soon too, I think.

But yeah, if I were to take a guestimate, I look forward to Hit vs. Goku rival episodes in conjunction with Cabba/Gohan and friends saving the day. I just hope the androids stick around in a more prominent role too. Their abilities are really cool.
Click to expand...


Except Goku remains more popular than any 'next generation' character. And for the most part, it's only western fans who have a lot of issues with Goku's character. Sure, there are some Japanese fans who have issues, but the west are by far the most vocal.

Zalman said:
Personally I don't agree. I recently read the manga again and the contrast is strong. Back then Goku knew when to take things seriously. Goku didn't wake up in the Cell saga being goofy, which is something that's easily imaginable in Super. I'm not saying he wasn't carefree back then, and I don't want him to lose that side of him, but I feel this is a case where specific personality traits are being exaggerated. Kind of like what they did in Persona Q, if any of you have played that game.
Click to expand...

Some of his goofier moments in Super are exaggerated, but the Android/Cell Saga was the most serious version of Goku, and even then he put the world in danger with a smile on his face.
 
SolVanderlyn

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
HeroR said:
Except Goku remains more popular than any 'next generation' character. And for the most part, it's only western fans who have a lot of issues with Goku's character. Sure, there are some Japanese fans who have issues, but the west are by far the most vocal.



Some of his goofier moments in Super are exaggerated, but the Android/Cell Saga was the most serious version of Goku, and even then he put the world in danger with a smile on his face.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know Goku is still popular. That's why I said he'll stick around for sure.

I don't think it's particularly good handling of a generational story like Dragon Ball, but *sigh* it makes sense from a *double sigh* marketing perspective. Do what keeps the fans happy... I suppose.

I do think the writing would have more artistic merit (here come the snarky comments scoffing at the notion of any merit in DB's writing) if it did pass on the torch to others. Yes, I think writing does matter, even in Dragon Ball. But I'm not too upset. Uub is coming, other characters are shining more than they have since early Z, and Goku himself has lost or been shown up quite a bit, so the way things have been handled is actually pretty good.

I do think what I said about his flaws is true. Even if it's had no impact on his popularity in places like Japan.
 
L

LotusHD

Banned
SolVanderlyn said:
Yeah, I know Goku is still popular. That's why I said he'll stick around for sure.

I don't think it's particularly good handling of a generational story like Dragon Ball, but *sigh* it makes sense from a *double sigh* marketing perspective. Do what keeps the fans happy... I suppose.

I do think the writing would have more artistic merit (here come the snarky comments scoffing at the notion of any merit in DB's writing) if it did pass on the torch to others. Yes, I think writing does matter, even in Dragon Ball. But I'm not too upset. Uub is coming, other characters are shining more than they have since early Z, and Goku himself has lost or been shown up quite a bit, so the way things have been handled is actually pretty good.

I do think what I said about his flaws is true. Even if it's had no impact on his popularity in places like Japan.
Click to expand...

*scoffs and snarks
*snarks and scoffs
 
H

HeroR

Member
SolVanderlyn said:
Yeah, I know Goku is still popular. That's why I said he'll stick around for sure.

I don't think it's particularly good handling of a generational story like Dragon Ball, but *sigh* it makes sense from a *double sigh* marketing perspective. Do what keeps the fans happy... I suppose.

I do think the writing would have more artistic merit (here come the snarky comments scoffing at the notion of any merit in DB's writing) if it did pass on the torch to others. Yes, I think writing does matter, even in Dragon Ball. But I'm not too upset. Uub is coming, other characters are shining more than they have since early Z, and Goku himself has lost or been shown up quite a bit, so the way things have been handled is actually pretty good.

I do think what I said about his flaws is true. Even if it's had no impact on his popularity in places like Japan.
Click to expand...

Dragon Ball isn't really a generation story. Sure, the characters have kids and they some times carry a storyline, but it isn't Jo Jo. Dragon Ball is Goku's story while those around him comes and go, including his kids.
 
T

Tsunamo

Member
Daingurse said:
The Goku I grew up with is unrecognizable when contrasted with the Goku in Super, thanks to all the dub changes they made back in the day.

"I AM THE HOPE OF THE UNIVERSE. ALLY TO GOOD! NIGHTMARE TO YOU!"
Click to expand...
It's funny Toriyama's been vocal before about how the Anime took a couple of libertys with Goku making him more of a righteous hero type, so I can't imagine what he would've thought if he saw the dub subtitled.
 
Tal Shiar Agent

Tal Shiar Agent

Member
I grew up with Superman Goku. Now I realize Gohan is the Superman.


Goku is like Omni-Man.



Anyway, no episode today and 1 hour special next week, right?
 
R

Rutger

Banned
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
He should have been in the actual top 5 who would’ve saw that coming
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Krillin's whole thing is being able to keep up with people that outclass him. There's a reason Frieza wasn't able to successful kill Krillin until he was in his final form and everyone was worn out, Krillin outlasted Vegeta!

Krillin should have been in the tournament far longer than he was, it's a shame.
 
S

Skeeter49

Member
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
But than they’d have to use the new gen more
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My hope one day is we see Pan grow up, and Goten and Trunks stay the same.

Treat them like Ash, he's popular and doesn't age in Pokemon.

Plus Goten can't ride Icarus if he gets taller.

That's kind of the point though, Goku scouting Uub for the ToP would have been brilliant, same for Pan. They still can do that though
 
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