The perfect Dark
Banned
So, Bioshock is an oldschool shooter then..?
Duke Nukem Forever is actually a great game (for oldschool fans)
- Thread starter The perfect Dark
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So, Bioshock is an oldschool shooter then..?
Come to think of it, maybe The backtracking and wandering in Bioshock's various areas is one design choice where its pretty unlike a modern linear shooter.
But if you read I pretty clearly state that open level design isnt the only thing that doom and its close progeny had.
No but Bioshock has a few things in common with old school shooters such as the ability to hold all weapons at the same time. It does have slow movement speed though and the combat puts less emphasis on movement than something like Doom.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Nope. Aliens was no prince charming, but it had a pulse rifle with authentic sounds. Duke had absolutely nothing.
I love oldschool games. Doesn't matter which genre.
But Duke Nukeem forever was the biggest turd I've played in the last 25 years.
Game was horrible!
Bioshock was trying to be a sequel to System Shock, though, not Doom.
The original Bioshock was pretty much a streamlined, simplified version of Shock 2.
Cato the Censor
Member
The problem with the new Duke game was the total inability of the developers to understand the humor of the original and their total failure of capturing what made DN3D fresh and unique.
The horror of the game is that the developers actually MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT THAT THE GAME THEY MADE HAS HUMOR IN IT. I can't even shoot people because i constantly have to shake my head at how stupid everything is.
Enjoying this game is like listening to people telling you that Wizardry Gold is a better game than Wizardry 7 or that Wizards & Warriors was better than Tunnels & Trolls. There, is that oldschool enough?
The horror of the game is that the developers actually MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT THAT THE GAME THEY MADE HAS HUMOR IN IT. I can't even shoot people because i constantly have to shake my head at how stupid everything is.
Enjoying this game is like listening to people telling you that Wizardry Gold is a better game than Wizardry 7 or that Wizards & Warriors was better than Tunnels & Trolls. There, is that oldschool enough?
It was nearly ok. It had some decent moments the level where you were shrunk for example at least showed some originality. I liked that they kept the spirit of everything being interactive or at least shootable which I appreciated, I didn't finish it in the end which was due to it being overall dull and poorly executed.
One thing that I always liked was the notion of a game that played with the idea that Duke was a relic. He's the same guy, but the world has moved on. That's how you keep his character intact while injecting it with a lot more self-awareness.
In short: Call him out on being a jerk. You can still give him an opposing force who's *also* a jerk (Set a jerk to catch a jerk?), but it'd chip away at the facade.
Duke Nukem Forever is *all* facade.
I don't quite understand all the hate. The single player campaign sure was a hell lot more fun than any single player campaign that came out of CoD and BF combined... Sure the writing was terrible and the jokes were about as funny as a testicle cancer but I don't play games expecting a Woody Allen movie to begin with.
I guess trashing it is the geek chic thing to do.
I guess trashing it is the geek chic thing to do.
My personal stance on that is that I'm over exploration solely for the sake of exploration, mazes which exist just to be mazes. I've been there, I enjoyed it *then*, but now I've done that. It is a solved problem; any fool can methodically pick away at every corner of the level, and much of that time it's just running through empty areas to return to a part you haven't explored yet.
I'm not averse to exploration - far from it, I'm still very fond of it - but you have to make it more interesting these days for it not to simply bore me. If you can't do anything to make the exploration interesting... I'd rather have a corridor.
Thinking through games that have made me laugh recently... the M&L and Paper Mario titles, definitely. I'm finding Bravely Default charmingly amusing, too.
Yeah, I've heard other people say the same thing.
I see what you're saying but as must FPS games now push the player constantly forward down a corridor, playing Doom for the first time recently really felt like a breath of fresh air.
The idea that exploration is the only benefit of "maze-like" level design is pretty reductionist, for instance it also means that combat can be something more than a bunch of arenas, as areas linking with each other means fights can spill out of their (seemingly) designated areas and become bigger/smaller depending on your choices. This also applies to things like traps; something that's a one-note gimmick in a linear level can become something more in an open level that lets you do things like lure enemies to places. Good "maze-like" levels support player-agency in ways linear ones can't. Nevermind that a lot of open old-school shooter levels have a strong structure and aren't close to mazes in the first place.
For me, the fascination of actually playing Duke Forever was enough to keep me going. It was like being granted access to a game which may have never actually shipped. I'm happy that we at least had the chance to play the game even if it wasn't ultimately a great game in its own right.
Most of the best Doom levels were not mazes, it should be noted. Nobody wants actual mazes.
Maze-like level design is precisely what Wolfenstein 3D consists of, but not Doom or Quake.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I have never played DNF but the chicks being impregnated by aliens was definitely a thing in Duke 3D. I dont recall it ever seeming malevolent tho. Pandering maybe. When you went up and talked to them in the game they would be like "kill me". It was actually pretty messed up but it seemed like it added to the atmosphere of the game and showed a more ugly side of the alien invasion while simultaneously being tongue-in-cheek references to Aliens and Japanese tentacle octopus porn. Duke didnt crack jokes about it either, whenever you would kill a cocooned girl Duke would be like "Damn 
".
Maybe its done tastlessly in DNF, or maybe it was done just as bad in D3D but the novelty and endearing factor of the game plus the limited graphics to express scenes dulled it to the point of non-offensiveness.
". Maybe its done tastlessly in DNF, or maybe it was done just as bad in D3D but the novelty and endearing factor of the game plus the limited graphics to express scenes dulled it to the point of non-offensiveness.
In a way I think we should be grateful that Gearbox finished and released Duke Nukem Forever.
As flawed as it was it would have been a massive shame if that 16 years of work by 3D Realms had never seen the light of day. I'm glad that I finally got to experience the infamous game.
I'm sure if Take Two had announced that they were putting the game in the recycle bin and hitting empty there would have been a massive uproar and a petition to release it anyway warts and all.
As flawed as it was it would have been a massive shame if that 16 years of work by 3D Realms had never seen the light of day. I'm glad that I finally got to experience the infamous game.
I'm sure if Take Two had announced that they were putting the game in the recycle bin and hitting empty there would have been a massive uproar and a petition to release it anyway warts and all.
The perfect Dark
Banned
I'm currently playing the multiplayer.
So
much
fun
So
much
fun
All that's theoretically great, but in reality, all I really tend to need to do is various forms of backing away so I have cover to duck behind or space to dodge in then taking potshots when the opportunity arises.
A lot of work for a kill that could just be got with a few shotgun shells, in many cases.
I'm struggling to think of many, I have to admit, but it may be that I have a broader interpretation of mazes than many.
I remember Doom being praised (among other things) for having levels that were somehow plausible, as opposed to games like Dungeon Master that had crazy mazes that made no sense at all outside the context of the game.
Gintoki313
Banned
I enjoyed it when I first played it, but I don't think I can go back for a second playthrough. I bought the game since it was $5 at GS.
The thing I disliked the most was the vehicle controls, and how floaty everything felt. Not to mention all the bugs and glitches.
The thing I disliked the most was the vehicle controls, and how floaty everything felt. Not to mention all the bugs and glitches.
FriedConsole
Banned
I do too. Doom 3 BFG is awesome and I was playing Unreal Tournament 2008 last night on PS3 (still people playing online).
However DNF is unbelievably terrible. I was looking forward to this game for 10 years and one of the few games I paid full price for on lunch week. There is just so many annoying things it makes you do in that game like terrible platforming, RC cars, the truck segment, forever bosses. The humor was not there and it was just ugly. The women captured by the aliens segment was dark and didn't fit the tone. I didn't need amazing graphics but it was hard to look at. Multiplayer was even terrible.
This game made me so angry because it could have just been a generic old school shooter and I would have been happy but it was such utter shit I couldn't believe it got released.
RockmanWhore
Member
I had some fun with Duke Nukem Forever, it reminded me of old schools FPS from the 2000's, but I wouldn't say it's a good game. After its horrible reception I had super low expectation so maybe it did help.
plagiarize
Banned
I suppose terrible gameplay and woefully dated jokes do make a game 'oldschool' though.
Calling Duke 'old school' is laughable. LAUGHABLE.
jim-jam bongs
Member
What do those games have to do with old school shooters?
Lateraleye
Member
Played it on 360. Had never tried a Duke title before. Absolutely loved it, minus the level loading time and underwater level.
I don't understand the complaints, but y'know, opinions. Dug the graphics. Dug the music. Loved the 4th wall humor and over-the-top-ness of it all. I loved the politically incorrect jokes. Really liked the variety in the gameplay except for the swimming.
On a side note, I went back recently and played all the original Duke 3D and expansions for the first time. I'm glad FPS games aren't designed around keycards anymore. There's exploration and then there's "where the hell do I go now, I've been looking for an hour". The randomly spawning enemies were awful as well. And sorry, regenerating health is a must. I say fully admitting that I suck at FPS games.
TLDR I am definitely a Duke fan now, thanks to Forever.
I don't understand the complaints, but y'know, opinions. Dug the graphics. Dug the music. Loved the 4th wall humor and over-the-top-ness of it all. I loved the politically incorrect jokes. Really liked the variety in the gameplay except for the swimming.
On a side note, I went back recently and played all the original Duke 3D and expansions for the first time. I'm glad FPS games aren't designed around keycards anymore. There's exploration and then there's "where the hell do I go now, I've been looking for an hour". The randomly spawning enemies were awful as well. And sorry, regenerating health is a must. I say fully admitting that I suck at FPS games.
TLDR I am definitely a Duke fan now, thanks to Forever.
That's actually a major reason why I criticise it!
E1M1 - the very first level of the game - is Hangar. Where's the hangar?
It was acceptable for the time - and definitely an improvement over earlier games - but I never really got the impression that these levels had any identity other than being places to explore and get lost in.
(One aspect the Build games were generally rather good at, that was. Episode 2 of DN3D aside.)
FriedConsole
Banned
If you don't think Unreal Tournament 2008 and Doom 3 are old school, I am not sure what is an old school shooter. I think an old school shooter is a very fast paced (you running at 60mph) and simple shooting in arenas, simple story that doesn't take itself seriously, no gaining experience for multiplayer so people who play all the time have better weapons and most importantly actually FUN.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Well I think we can both agree on that last part.
FaintDeftone
Junior Member
The game didn't really bother me either. Sure it isn't phenomenal by any means, but it was well put together enough for me to see it to the end. I've played much much worse than this.
jaundicejuice
Member
Duke Nukem Forever is a museum of sadness where you can literally point out the year a certain section of a game was made based off of the game mechanics that were being aped or the popular culture references being made.
And, which has likely been pointed out ad nauseum, Duke Nukem Forever is so far removed from being an "oldschool" shooter, it awkwardly features and uses many modern fps design conventions from weapon limits to level design.
And, which has likely been pointed out ad nauseum, Duke Nukem Forever is so far removed from being an "oldschool" shooter, it awkwardly features and uses many modern fps design conventions from weapon limits to level design.
No.
Runspeed and the fact that there is a (slow) runbutton.
Jump height
THE FOV OH GOD THE FOV!
Fire rates
Size of weapon models
Etc...
partyphone
Banned
A lot of the time I can not like something yet understand how someone else could.
But not with this game.
I just can't.
Joseph Merrick
Member
duke nukem 3d is a great game for oldschool fans
we can all agree on that last part.
we can all agree on that last part.
I played Duke3D in 1996 on a Pentium 90 so I am as oldschool as it gets and FOREVER just was a constant "meh".
The gun and 1st person hand handling felt weak and exactly how you would think a messy Unreal 2.5 engine game would feel.
The only level that I still remember is the Duke Burger one where Duke is miniaturized, everything else was meh.
Now that I think about it: Both BORDERLANDS1&2 and A:CM lacked tremendously in meaty gun/1st person animations and feel to them. Dunno if it is an UE or Gearbox thing.
The gun and 1st person hand handling felt weak and exactly how you would think a messy Unreal 2.5 engine game would feel.
The only level that I still remember is the Duke Burger one where Duke is miniaturized, everything else was meh.
Now that I think about it: Both BORDERLANDS1&2 and A:CM lacked tremendously in meaty gun/1st person animations and feel to them. Dunno if it is an UE or Gearbox thing.
........................................................
Its better than DNF at least
I just didnt get on with it, i liked it at first but by the time i got to that boss id had enough. Kinda the same with Hard Reset, i loved the look of it at first, but it just went nowhere. Just the same locations and enemies over and over.
Loved, loved Shadow Warrior tho. One of my favourites from last year for sure.
Nah that's fair enough, I'd say with ROTT 2013 it's aimed primarily at ROTT fans more than anything even if it is old skool in its design. It IS a bit cheap on it but I do tend to give them a bit of leeway as they financed the game completely themselves and didn't resort to Kickstarter or anyone else to fund it and they've supported it very well.
At least ROTT has a reason you can look to, DNF has so such excuse!
evilromero
Member
I loved my time with Duke Forever. I thought it was humorous and had quite a bit of gameplay variety. It didn't hurt that the locations were great (the Duke Burger area was tops) and that there was a lot of care put into tiny details. I need to play through it again.
Macmanus
Member
Wrack looks awesome! It comes off as XIII's artistic style combined with OG Doom sensibilities.
Rickenslacker
Banned
Having played all of them fully I agree. ROTT13 was the worst FPS I've played in the last few years, I said earlier that I found DNF boring more than anything, ROTT was just bad. While the level design was promising the art is bland and the combat is utterly mind numbing, fighting countless of the same enemy with the occasional palette swap given more health -- it doesn't help that the weapon variety was severely lacking, effectively leaving you with an infinite ammo MP40 or one of a few rocket launchers. And the player movement felt bad as well with no real reason to zip around as twitchy fast as you could; the combat and level design never really justified it.
Hard Reset was decent, but kind of boring, as stated you just get worn down with the same feeling encounters, and the gunplay itself is never anything more than alright.
Shadow Warrior is good, they the lessons learned from Hard Reset and made another FPS with a similar template and improvements to the formula. I don't know if I'd even label it as playing like a classic shooter, but at this point I think all that means to people (including myself) is that it doesn't play like Doom specifically, but it doesn't follow in the footsteps of classic Shadow Warrior either and is way better off for it.
