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Europa Universalis IV MP Community Thread of Hotjoining for Glory

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Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
This is exactly how I usually play singleplayer actually. In EU4 I only had one single-player game, conquered all the provinces needed to form the Kingdom of Italy in about 50 years as Savoy, and then quitted feeling I had done what I wanted to do. I am now in more or less that same position in our game with Sardinia, but like I wrote earlier, its no option for me to outright quit. However, like I also wrote, I would prefer it if we would start the game over with new countries. As long as I am alone in that however, I will continue on with my poor Sardinia.

Sure, I can see that, but that was never an idea for an MP game. I mean I cant tell people what they can or cant do, but most people probably started the game to see it through to the end. If you just want to see what you can accomplish within 60 years, there is SP for that. The MP games are a bit like board games, and I would absolutely hate if anyone would step away from a boardgame session just because he felt like he earned enough victory points.

And what are you on about with your "poor" sardinia? You have one of the most successful countries in the game, expanding your territory to 4 times your initial size. You have also plenty of space to expand into france, africa, or hell even the HRE if you wanted to. Not like there is no challenge left for you.

Sorry, if that sounded a bit rude. Didnt mean to sound mean but I dont have time right now to fluff up my words :p
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
Sure, I can see that, but that was never an idea for an MP game. I mean I cant tell people what they can or cant do, but most people probably started the game to see it through to the end. If you just want to see what you can accomplish within 60 years, there is SP for that. The MP games are a bit like board games, and I would absolutely hate if anyone would step away from a boardgame session just because he felt like he earned enough victory points.

And what are you on about with your "poor" sardinia? You have one of the most successful countries in the game, expanding your territory to 4 times your initial size. You have also plenty of space to expand into france, africa, or hell even the HRE if you wanted to. Not like there is no challenge left for you.

Sorry, if that sounded a bit rude. Didnt mean to sound mean but I dont have time right now to fluff up my words :p

No problem :) My "poor" Sardinia is just meant as a joke. I know fully well that I have been decently succesful and have a lot of areas to expand into.

I also think you are right in your assumption on why people started a multiplayer-game rather than a singleplayer game, and I also started the game because I wanted to stick with it rather than just quit after 50 years (like I always do in singleplayer). However, one of the main reasons I have wanted to start over, is that I didnt really like the dynamics that occured when some major powers where player-controlled, while other were AI-controlled, and that is also behind my suggestions earlier of getting "fallen" players into the fold as France, Ottomans, England and so on. I want to start over because I want to see these nations played. By competent humans. Because I think the game will be more fun that way. But once again, I know I am in the minority, and I have no problem at all with that. However, I do like to raise my point of view once in a while, especially since it now seems we are loosing players, and my point of view might also suit them.
 

Kabouter

Member
No problem :) My "poor" Sardinia is just meant as a joke. I know fully well that I have been decently succesful and have a lot of areas to expand into.

I also think you are right in your assumption on why people started a multiplayer-game rather than a singleplayer game, and I also started the game because I wanted to stick with it rather than just quit after 50 years (like I always do in singleplayer). However, one of the main reasons I have wanted to start over, is that I didnt really like the dynamics that occured when some major powers where player-controlled, while other were AI-controlled, and that is also behind my suggestions earlier of getting "fallen" players into the fold as France, Ottomans, England and so on. I want to start over because I want to see these nations played. By competent humans. Because I think the game will be more fun that way. But once again, I know I am in the minority, and I have no problem at all with that. However, I do like to raise my point of view once in a while, especially since it now seems we are loosing players, and my point of view might also suit them.

I don't really see the problem in that, in as much as that when human players grow strong, they become natural replacement for the 'natural' great powers anyway. Naples for instance will simply replace the Ottomans in terms of its power, much like Hedjaz is likely to do with the Mamluks in the long run. Just two examples of course.
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
I don't really see the problem in that, in as much as that when human players grow strong, they become natural replacement for the 'natural' great powers anyway. Naples for instance will simply replace the Ottomans in terms of its power, much like Hedjaz is likely to do with the Mamluks in the long run. Just two examples of course.

This is true and a fair point. I guess it becomes a problem if you like Europa Universalis also for its historical flavour, and for me that is one of the most important reasons to play the game. Not that everything that happends should mirror history of course, but I kinda like that things dont get completely out of hand either. For instance, if I play as Muscovy, I would like to meet China when I finally get east - not some superduperstrong Hindustan that has taken over all of Asia (not related to our current game, just an example). For me personally, having a strong France, a strong Ottoman Empire, a strong Russie etc to fight, is part of the fun, and I personally feel like I loose a bit of interest when those nations are traded for Byzantium, Hesse, Brabant or whatever.
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
Ha, I see the Ming AI is still hanging on. Doesn't seem to be doing much aside from finishing annexing vassals though. With an army and fleet that dominate the rest of Asia, you would think the AI would go conquer some stuff. Certainly Manchu would be such an easy target, and if not them, surely the Oirat Horde or Ayutthaya could use an asswhooping.
You created a monster, one which keeps trying to fabricate claims on my territory. But even if it declares I should be safe. The AI is abysmal at waging war against island nations because it never builds enough transport ships to launch an invasion.
 

Kabouter

Member
You created a monster, one which keeps trying to fabricate claims on my territory. But even if it declares I should be safe. The AI is abysmal at waging war against island nations because it never builds enough transport ships to launch an invasion.

Unless the AI got rid of a bunch of ships, I wouldn't count on that too much. Edit:
puflERD.jpg
9DCSAM7.jpg
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
Unless the AI got rid of a bunch of ships, I wouldn't count on that too much. Edit:
18 transport ships is nowhere near enough to invade Japan. I can simply wait for them with at least 25,000 soldiers* in the province in which they're landing and wipe out each and every stack one by one. Even a powerful country like Ming couldn't take much more than a few years of that. It probably won't matter anyway. Unless Ming turns hostile again, I found that I can simply secure a royal marriage with them, and I don't think the AI will declare war if the player has a royal marriage (but it's done stranger things before).

*I only have 12,000 soldiers in Japan at the moment, but I'm going to bring the remaining 8,000 back soon, plus I can easily hire 5,000 to 10,000 mercs. The major downside of a war with Ming is that a blockade would hurt a lot.
 
AAR - 1536-1540 - Venice

Description of the actions during the session:
Tonight might have been the least eventful session yet. I converted one province to Reformism so now there is a grand total of three Reformed provinces in the world.

State at the end of the session:
Province Count: Original(8) + 23
Allies: Naples, Bohemia
At War With: None
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
AAR - 1536-1540 Austria - the revival

After all the troubles with the rebels and our weak king, a strong pretender appeared. The people saw in him the hope of greatness that eluded Austria in the past decade. A long list of unworthy leaders brought the country almost on the brink of extinction. The new king was installing in the palace and his strong army (all 40 regiments of them) reinstated the peace in this beautiful land. Immediately after that he sent his troops to Venice and out vassal Augsburg to train in fighting rebels there. Our gratitude goes to our friend and neighbor, Venice, who helped us in our dire times. We will not forget that.

Once the peace was surrounding us, it came the time to take care of our old "friend" Hungary that has no reason to exist anymore. Of course the bastard Bohemians jumped into the war, but this might be their last war ...
Our dear ally Burgundy jumped into another war, of course, but maybe this time we will get rid for good of the pesky Lorraine.

State at the end of the session:
Province Count: 21
Vassals: Augsburg, Ansbach
Allies: France, Burgundy
At War With: Bohemia, Hungary, Hesse, Lorraine, Brunswick and the Hansa
 

Doctorhales92

Neo Member
Loved playing EU III in the summer. Best part was forming germany, eating poland and butchering austria and (especially) france.
I would like to know if this is a definitive upgrade to previous installments and would like to know the cheapest place where i can get it from. I live in the UK
 
It's definitely a large upgrade and I'll never go back to EU3 again. The core game remains the same, but they've improved the interface and it's now much more obvious what the numbers actually mean.

I think the cheapest option is Green Man Gaming £26.24 with this 25% off voucher, GMG25-J2566-L2GHZ.
 

Fitz

Member
Heads up that I might not be able to play on Sunday as I'm going to be away for a few days. I'll have my laptop with me though so hopefully it can run the game. In any case I'll update this post once I know either way.
 

Doctorhales92

Neo Member
Just ordered it from amazon, came pretty cheap. £23 ( £2 extra order cost = £25) but chose quick delivery (1-2 days) which amounted to £27.
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
Heads up that I might not be able to play on Sunday as I'm going to be away for a few days. I'll have my laptop with me though so hopefully it can run the game. In any case I'll update this post once I know either way.

The moment I have waited for! :)
 

Fitz

Member
The moment I have waited for! :)

Oh you little scamp. :p I've managed to get the game installed and the internet sorted on my laptop, it'll probably explode whilst playing, but I'll be there. Won't get a lot done with this damned touch-pad, but at the very least I should be able to stop the AI from sending my nation into ruin.
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
Oh you little scamp. :p I've managed to get the game installed and the internet sorted on my laptop, it'll probably explode whilst playing, but I'll be there. Won't get a lot done with this damned touch-pad, but at the very least I should be able to stop the AI from sending my nation into ruin.

Wow good work! Touchpad gaming seriouslu sucks, but its definitely better than the AI, thats for sure!
 
AAR - 1540-1547 - Venice

Description of the actions during the session:
Converted three more provinces last night. I've been meaning to put my Administrative points into the Religious national idea, but I had to spend all on restoring stability. Religious unity is slowly rising and I think I'll recover next session. So far not a single province has defected to the one true religion voluntarily.

State at the end of the session:
Province Count: Original(8) + 23
Allies: Naples, Bohemia
At War With: None
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
AAR - 1540-1547 Austria

I defeated Bohemia and took 3 provinces from them. That should keep them quiet for a while. Now I have to keep the Protestant rebels under control until I finish with the Reform.

State at the end of the session:
Province Count: 24
Vassals: Augsburg, Ansbach
Allies: France, Burgundy
At War With: rebels
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I may arrive only very just before 11:00. Hope it isn't a problem.

EDIT: never mind, problem cleared
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
Several people, including myself, received an OOS error, so I want to confirm that everything is the same as I left it. Even though only one year passed by, I'm at a critical juncture right now.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
Several people, including myself, received an OOS error, so I want to confirm that everything is the same as I left it. Even though only one year passed by, I'm at a critical juncture right now.

Yeah, sorry :) Wasnt trying to be condescending, as I said a savegame would be neat.
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
The real reason I need the save file is to practice my invasion of India. It should begin as soon as I defeat Ming.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
The real reason I need the save file is to practice my invasion of India. It should begin as soon as I defeat Ming.

Ooh fancy. Lets join hands and go destroy Ind... wait what? I didnt send those chinese troops to you, I swear!
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Wow, the Aztecs and Incans in your game are really slow.

In my Japan game, by 1550 Inca already colonized the entire west coast of America leaving me stranded in the eastern hemisphere.
 

Fitz

Member
Wow, the Aztecs and Incans in your game are really slow.

In my Japan game, by 1550 Inca already colonized the entire west coast of America leaving me stranded in the eastern hemisphere.

Are you playing vanilla? I don't think I've ever seen the AI Aztec/Inca take any colonial ideas.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Are you playing vanilla? I don't think I've ever seen the AI Aztec/Inca take any colonial ideas.

It was an imported game from CK2, which had Sunset Invasion activated. Maybe that's it. This was early 1600s I think. And the light blue blob is from my conquests as Sweden in CK2.


EDIT: Just noticed Netherlands trucking on there right in the middle.
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
I don't know what the AI did in my absence, but when I entered the game I had rebels everywhere, despite the fact that I had zero revolt risk. The rebels must have spawned as the result of an event which the AI chose. The worst part of it, though, is that they spawned in Hawaii, which prevented me from coring it. So now I'm going to be four years late in reaching the Americas.

The war with Ming also didn't work out as I had hoped. I played ahead a little in single player to see how the war would go, and it went about as well as I could have expected. Ming sent three or four stacks of 18,000 soldiers to Japan, all of which I defeated. This allowed me to drive up war score and force them to release Korea. But in the multiplayer game they just occupied Okinawa and never sent another soldier to the Japanese mainland. Since I had to deal with the rebels in Hawaii, I couldn't hold out for a better deal, so I signed a white peace as early as possible. And then, when it looked like Ming might finally collapse due to the strain of having to fight a war against Manchu and Ayutthaya, the AI peaced out for seemingly nothing.
 
AAR - 1548-1554 - Venice

Description of the actions during the session:
Woo! My provinces finally started defecting to Reformism by themselves. I also unlocked a second missionary and put a bunch of points into the Religious national idea. Next session I'll unlock the +3% missionary strength perk and that should take care of the last difficult ones.

State at the end of the session:
Province Count: Original(8) + 23
Allies: Bohemia, Denmark
At War With: None
 

Kabouter

Member
I don't know what the AI did in my absence, but when I entered the game I had rebels everywhere, despite the fact that I had zero revolt risk. The rebels must have spawned as the result of an event which the AI chose. The worst part of it, though, is that they spawned in Hawaii, which prevented me from coring it. So now I'm going to be four years late in reaching the Americas.

The war with Ming also didn't work out as I had hoped. I played ahead a little in single player to see how the war would go, and it went about as well as I could have expected. Ming sent three or four stacks of 18,000 soldiers to Japan, all of which I defeated. This allowed me to drive up war score and force them to release Korea. But in the multiplayer game they just occupied Okinawa and never sent another soldier to the Japanese mainland. Since I had to deal with the rebels in Hawaii, I couldn't hold out for a better deal, so I signed a white peace as early as possible. And then, when it looked like Ming might finally collapse due to the strain of having to fight a war against Manchu and Ayutthaya, the AI peaced out for seemingly nothing.

Ming AI doesn't understand the faction system, if you make sure to get a stack of sufficient size, you probably don't even have to wait him out in Japan itself. -33% discipline is a killer. At the very least you should be able to take the Korean provinces that belong to your home trade node.
 

Manik

Member
At this point, eastern Europe is pretty much just a bunch of squabbling children (and I say that with Poland included), with everyone being someone else's best friend and someone else's worst enemy each week. It's a merry-go-round of warfare.

I'm not complaining - this time it's my turn to be best buddies with Muscowy and Novgorod, and Lithuania is getting their lunch money stolen. I might even be able to get Wallachia, who previously stole territory from me then allied themselves with Lithuania, to release Moldavia, meaning I'll finally have the two halves of my country linked by land again.

Have to try and get my prestige higher than Lithuania too, without extending the war so long that my luck runs out and they start clawing back some warscore, which is the challenge for next session.
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
Ming AI doesn't understand the faction system, if you make sure to get a stack of sufficient size, you probably don't even have to wait him out in Japan itself. -33% discipline is a killer. At the very least you should be able to take the Korean provinces that belong to your home trade node.
Ming's fleet is still far too large and formidable to attempt to move my soldiers to the mainland during the war, and they were the ones who declared war against me. If I wanted to launch a preemptive strike against them, I could move a large stack to an uncolonized province north of Ming and then declare a coalition war so that Manchu and Ayutthaya will join (I was surprised at the ease with which Manchu was able to occupy Ming's provinces). But a war against Ming can't really be undertaken without committing a lot of resources to completely taking them apart. If I'm going to have any presence on the mainland, then I'd have to make sure that Ming is never a threat again.
 

Kabouter

Member
Ming's fleet is still far too large and formidable to attempt to move my soldiers to the mainland during the war, and they were the ones who declared war against me. If I wanted to launch a preemptive strike against them, I could move a large stack to an uncolonized province north of Ming and then declare a coalition war so that Manchu and Ayutthaya will join (I was surprised at the ease with which Manchu was able to occupy Ming's provinces). But a war against Ming can't really be undertaken without committing a lot of resources to completely taking them apart. If I'm going to have any presence on the mainland, then I'd have to make sure that Ming is never a threat again.

Well as soon as you have any province on the mainland you can just start demolishing the shit out of Ming, I was able to defeat them without any ally in SP as Manchu. Just have to concentrate your forces in a single stack and let them come to you with all their combat penalties. Plus, because you're Japan you get significant combat bonuses yourself iirc. Navy could be a problem, but then again, like you say, you could land in an uncolonized province and attack from there.

By the way, general question, any PvP wars going on? Not much seems to be happening in Europe looking at the map.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
At this point, eastern Europe is pretty much just a bunch of squabbling children (and I say that with Poland included), with everyone being someone else's best friend and someone else's worst enemy each week. It's a merry-go-round of warfare.

I'm not complaining - this time it's my turn to be best buddies with Muscowy and Novgorod, and Lithuania is getting their lunch money stolen. I might even be able to get Wallachia, who previously stole territory from me then allied themselves with Lithuania, to release Moldavia, meaning I'll finally have the two halves of my country linked by land again.

Have to try and get my prestige higher than Lithuania too, without extending the war so long that my luck runs out and they start clawing back some warscore, which is the challenge for next session.

And I'm tagging along for the ride, because Lithuania has 3 Russian culture provinces and considering Muscowy took some of mine last war, the more easy provinces I can get the better. Also, I really don't want an enemy Lithuania at my door-step, so helping Cazz get his PU with them back would be really useful. Obviously my long-term goal is still to destroy Muscowy, though. I don't really have any short-term goals apart from "don't fuck up". Achieving Religious Unity would be nice. I'm temporarily Orthodox again, but given I only have two Orthodox provinces and fifteen-ish Protestant ones, that shouldn't be a very permanent states of affairs. Aside from that, there's nothing I can do. I don't want to disrupt the Danish border, Sweden is in a PU with Cazz, and Muscowy is an insane destroyer of souls. That just leaves Lithuania to munch on until it can be restored.

Once I have caught up in military tech and have 100 Republican tradition, I'll start heading towards Westernization.
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
Well as soon as you have any province on the mainland you can just start demolishing the shit out of Ming, I was able to defeat them without any ally in SP as Manchu. Just have to concentrate your forces in a single stack and let them come to you with all their combat penalties. Plus, because you're Japan you get significant combat bonuses yourself iirc. Navy could be a problem, but then again, like you say, you could land in an uncolonized province and attack from there.

By the way, general question, any PvP wars going on? Not much seems to be happening in Europe looking at the map.

Not really a lot going on. Personally, I feel the game has been slowing down for a long time, and I know there are other players feeling the same, making the dedication and stress required to do a real PvP war even less likely - at least for me.
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
Seem to be the most successful human players, in no small part because you would be each others natural rivals in a normal game.

In a normal game any of the three italian players would have taken the other italian nations a long time ago :)

Talking about the most successful human players, I would probably rank it like this, and in general agree with you (note, this is of course from my point of view, I dont have complete control over how easy it is to play all the countries etc):

1. Naples/Fitz/Colkate - have become the strongest human player in Europe and have managed to do so without struggling even once as far as I can see. Great player. Did get some luck and help early on, but has simply been doing all the right choices from there.

2. Viyajanagar/Toma - more or less unified India is one thing, starting to westernize (and maybe finish it now?) is something completely different and was enough to push Kabouter to quit which in itself is a huge victory for him.

3. Sardinia-Piemonte/Savoy/Morfeo - I think I have done decent considering I started so close to human players like Burgundy, Venice and Naples, and also lost an important ally when Austria got player-controlled. Have stagnated and not really progressed the last few weeks though.

4. Venice/Archenemesis - Have done well by taking over most of balkans, and I think I would have placed him above myself if he hadnt gotten a friendly player to take Austria pretty early in the game. Also has limited possibilities going forward which makes his situation a bit dire, but have done fantastic from where he started.

5. Japan/Hosokawa/Mgo - I dont really know how hard it is to play a daimyo with success as I have never done it myself, but I will guess that its challenging for the first roughly 20 years, and then pretty easy as there is no real threats. Have probably done more or less as well as possible considering the situation though.

6. Hedjaz/Sickboy - I have never tried to play them so this is just pure speculation, but has done well to avoid the Mameluk threat, ally with the ottomans (before they became a joke), and unite Arabia. Looks to have a dire future with a strengthening Hindustan approaching though.

7. Ming/Kabouter - From what I can judge he did more or less everything right when he played, but drops down a bit here since he gave up early, and also because his future would be almost certain doom at the hand of Toma.

8. Novgorord/Crabby - have expanded a lot considering his tricky neighbour, and also secured a strong alliance with Poland that has been very favourable for him as far as I can judge. Have stagnated the last few sessions though, and doesnt seem to be able to get any further from now on considering how strong Muscovy is becomming, which drops him down a bit.

9.Poland/Manik/Cazz - looked awesomely strong after a few sessions, but have since lost Lithunia and hasnt really done a lot to expand in any directions. Did finally take some crimean provinces last week, but I feel he should have been much bigger considering how strong Poland starts out.

10. Burgundy/Fanboi - is just slightly stronger then when he started out, but has the hardest country as his main enemy, so that might be as expected. Is probably fighting a loosing war against France that will eventually make him irrelevant in the west. Was probably just a bit to aggressive early on, and hasnt really recovered his strength since.

11.Morrocco/Mleuigi - A hard nation to play for sure, making it difficult to judge, but he have been lucky that player-controlled Spain and myself hasnt been more aggressive, giving him a free hand to colonize and do whatever. Does have some challenge from Portugal and the AI-Spain when Digby doesnt show up, but should probably be bigger than he is. Joined late, so that might be a reason.

12. Spain/Castille/Face/Sir Digby - plays the easiest nation in the game and have just recently been able to unite the thrones of Aragon and Castille. Was a n00b when he started, and is better now, so will probably do much better in the next game.

13. Austria/Wallachia/KingSnake - had an uberhardcore game with Wallachia going that actually went ok before the unavoidable annexation. Then switced to what probably was the third most powerful country in Europe at the time, waged a ton of stupid wars in the swiss mountains, Bavaria and Hungary - and hasnt really recovered since. Was heavily overextended for a long time, got tons of rebels, religious wars, bankrupcy - and lost the imperial throne. Have recently been able to recover somewhat and restart his expansion, but considering the nation he plays, he should be dominating the empire by now.

14. Scotland/Mali/Rug Monkey - The AI Scotland started out by taking a few english provinces, giving Rug an excellent start, but has since been loosing war after war before eventually getting completely annexed. Switched to Mali where he doesnt seem to have done much. Difficult to judge, but definitely hasnt had a successfull game.

15. Denmark/Sweden/Georgia/Wink - started out in a superhardcore impossible-to-win situation in the kaukasus, but it was his terrible performance as Sweden that scores him this position. One of the strongest nations in his region, he got decimated to the fact that he changed to Denmark - and as far as I can see hasnt really done a lot with his new country since. Scores last for failling with Sweden mostly.

So this is of course only from the perspective of the peaceful savoyan, there might be random events and a ton of other stuff I am not aware of, and I am sure there are good players that have been unlucky in this game, and less good players (like myself) with luck etc, but at least this is how I would rank the human players in our game from Turin.
 

Toma

Let me show you through these halls, my friend, where treasures of indie gaming await...
6. Hedjaz/Sickboy - I have never tried to play them so this is just pure speculation, but has done well to avoid the Mameluk threat, ally with the ottomans (before they became a joke), and unite Arabia. Looks to have a dire future with a strengthening Hindustan approaching though.

What is this fearsome Hindustan that you guys speak so often about. The educated people of Vijanagarians wouldnt want them to be their enemy apparently.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, I think that's a pretty fair summary by Morfeo. I really am stuck for expansion. I don't want to attack wink and there's no value in me doing so anyway, as until you get to the southern coast, Scandinavian provinces are quite poor. I can't attack Muscowy when they're two tech-levels ahead and have the guaranteed excellent generals that Lucky Nations get. Cazz and I need each other for mutual benefit far too much to risk anything - while Cazz currently has Muscowy as an ally, eventually he's going to have to get Lithuania back and form the PLC, which will infuriate a Muscowy, and a Muscowy that's formed Russia as it would if I went isn't something the PLC is going to be able to do much about.

I can expand into Lithuania, and that's my goal for the next few sessions. I have two goals with regard to Lithuania. The first is to reclaim all their Russian culture provinces. The second is to drag the prestige low enough to allow Cazz to reclaim them. Muscowy is strong enough I simply can't deal with two hostile enemies at once, and I've been terrified of an attack in the past session and a half - it would wipe me out entirely. Once I have a secure Polish-Lithuanian border, I can focus on Muscowy again.

In terms of other stuff? I have 8 loans which need paying off, although that shouldn't take too long - Novgorod is really quite wealthy with good use of merchants, probably because I control almost all of the Novgorod trade node. I'm currently Orthodox thanks to not having the army to deal with Orthodox rebels - Muscowy sponsors them, so they're far superior to my own troops. However, as mentioned earlier this shouldn't last very long and I should be Protestant quite shortly. Once Protestant, I'm aiming for religious unity - I have 2 Orthodox provinces, 4 Catholic provinces, and 1 Reformed province. To deal with that, I have 2 missionaries and a really high conversion rate thanks to Novgorod's unique ideas. Hopefully it shouldn't take that long. Eventually, I'm going to have to Westernize, which means rebels galore, and I can't cope with Muscowy sponsored rebels at the moment, so an effective pre-requisite to Westernization is having an equal mil-tech with Muscowy. Also, I want really low stability costs, so for the moment I'm putting up with 1/1/4 leaders so I can regenerate my Republican tradition - I lost a lot of it integrating Pskov and Norway.

That's really all I can do for the time being. Basically, my next few sessions consist of sitting and waiting - waiting for missionaries to convert, waiting for elections to happen, waiting for tech to go up. I think I did fairly well with Novgorod given a) Novgorod is probably one of the hardest nations in the game to start with, and b) the AI has not exactly been particularly helpful - I had a nice opportunity to Westernize about 12 years ago that got destroyed. Equally, I could be doing a lot better - Muscowy still holds land I lost right in the first few sessions.
 

Kabouter

Member
5. Japan/Hosokawa/Mgo - I dont really know how hard it is to play a daimyo with success as I have never done it myself, but I will guess that its challenging for the first roughly 20 years, and then pretty easy as there is no real threats.
Really easy early on actually, since this was pre-1.2, when the only thing that ever happened was Japan diplo-annexing vassals and the player was the only vassal to go to war with other vassals. I think I unified Japan in 19 years in 1.1. I think Mgo has done very well in managing the country beyond that though, and has made all the right calls.

I'll rank everyone too (going by what I saw before and looking at the save earlier today). Just pre-emptively, I will say that I don't intend to be rude, if it reads that way, that is not my intention. I do however call it like I see it. Here goes:

1. Viyajanagar/Toma - Westernized very early on, largest player army, high income, no threats nearby given that Ming AI is friendly.

2. Naples/Fitz/Colkate - Has done a very good job of taking down the Ottomans, but has to be said that he was helped in this by doing so before the Ottoman AI learned to use military access. Otherwise though, essentially flawless. Headed for a major clash with Hindustan, and should be careful that Italian opportunists don't take advantage of the major PvP war that will result from that.

3. Sardinia-Piemonte/Savoy/Morfeo - Knows how to expand, does not do anything rash, clever player. Should absolutely continue on his chosen path.

4. Japan/Hosokawa/Mgo - See above. Very well managed, only let down by absence and AI mismanagement. The times he has been there, flawless play.

[significant gap]

5. Venice/Archenemesis - Has done a solid job of managing his nation, but chose his allegiances poorly. Should have taken the opportunity to expand into Austria (and still should), without that is boxed in.

6. Morrocco/Mleuigi - Another player let down by poor AI management and a bit of bad luck, he has done okay for himself when he has been there. Profits from the poor performance of player controlled colonial powers by now building a colonial empire in Brazil. If he manages it right and expands into Western Africa, he could become very wealthy. He would do well to seek a player ally whose interests complement his own though.

7. Hedjaz/Sickboy - Hedjaz isn't the easiest nation to play, and he's done okay by controlling all of the Arabian peninsula now. He should have been far more aggressive in East-Africa however and should take the expansion idea group to expand a little bit in Africa. He should also be much richer given the trade node nearby. He might not have Oman's great trading ideas, but even then, that shouldn't stop him from becoming very rich indeed. Should either negotiate some sort of non-aggression pact with Toma or ally with another human player, because otherwise Hedjaz is roadkill if India so chooses.

8. Novgorod/Crabby - Muscovy can be a very strong opponent, should probably have colluded with other human players to take them out very early on. Having failed to do so, in no small part thanks to the AI, Muscovy is now too strong to take down quickly enough, should use his exploration ideas to quickly colonize North America, and then sell off his provinces to whomever will take them, and then move his capital to North America. Could become *very* strong that way.

[Massive gap]

9. Ming/Kabouter - I think I was doing well enough, given that Ming is #2 in score behind France and had the largest army and navy in the world (unsure if still true), but I'm a quitter (and a morning person), so I suck.

10. Denmark/Sweden/Georgia/Wink - Some bad luck, partly the fault of AI. Still dealing with some loans and shit as Denmark, so can't fault him for not growing too much, but he should seek to gain full control of the Lübeck trade node as soon as possible to gain strength for a fight against Burgundy.

11. Scotland/Mali/Rug Monkey - I don't want to be too harsh on Rug Monkey, because I seem to recall him having actually made gains against England only to lose it all because of AI mismanagement. Is he still playing as Mali? I didn't see him the last two or three times I did participate. If he is, well, he started too late as Mali to really be able to do anything. France and Portugal will tear him apart.

12. Burgundy/Fanboi - Admittedly Burgundy is not super easy since while it is large, it is outside the HRE and is a natural enemy of France. However, with control of the Antwerpen trade node, and the mercenary ideas, and player alliances, he should have been able to do better than he has. He's also too far behind in tech.

13. Spain/Castille/Face/Sir Digby - Well, he did unify most of Spain, and was admittedly hampered by the AI picking religious ideas first, even then however, he should have a significant colonial empire by now rather than two provinces.

14. Poland/Manik/Cazz - Lucked into a union with Sweden, but managed to lose the union with Lithuania, frequently depletes his strength by helping Novgorod, possibly what led to losing the union with Lithuania as well. Should have maintained both unions and expanded into the HRE, Crimea or South-Eastern Europe

[gigantic gap]

15. Austria/Wallachia/KingSnake - Austria is one of the best nations in the game, but has been completely mismanaged. Techwise is basically at the same level as Japan and Ming, and *way* behind in terms of ideas. In terms of territory hasn't expanded much. Should never have taken Hungarian provinces with their horrible +200% coring cost (and thus long-term overextension prospects) but should have instead forced a PU, which is very easy as Austria. Also shouldn't have attacked Bohemia because Austria after a certain point gets a mission to PU Bohemia. Should have used Austria's very powerful national ideas to diplo-vassalize nations within the empire. Should not have lost the imperial crown. Should not have expanded before having reduced his overextension sufficiently.
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
The one feature that was entirely absent when we started playing, and was only introduced in the previous patch, is the ability of the Japanese AI to declare war against an upstart daimyo. The threshold for a declaration of war is only like ten provinces, which is still far short of building enough power to actually beat the shogunate. I have no idea how a well-played daimyo strategy would work after the last patch, but beating the Japanese AI would probably be a very difficult proposition in a multiplayer game. I had it really easy. The biggest challenge will be trying to figure out how to westernize.
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
Yeah I want to say as Kabouter that I am in no way trying to be rude or anything, I was just ranking it and describing it as I saw it.

It seems we do agree on most stuff, but after reading your ranking, I do think its probably better except for one thing - I still believe Fitz to have played better than Toma. The major reason for this is that Fitz at all times have had the threat of a war with either me or Arcnemesis, and even though we of course have been talking, he could never know if I was really his friend or foe - and same with Archnemesis - meaning he would always have to be a bit more careful than the lonely Toma.

I will also say about myself that the last few sessions my nation have gone a bit downhill as I am now taking the game much less seriously than before (even playing Demon's Souls on the side - a game that at times need a lot of concentration), and that will probably drop me down in the long run. I also still dont get the trade-system even though I choose trade as a national idea - which probably was a gigantic waste then - and I did a few things just for fun - like conquering north africa - where I spent resources that could have been better spent elsewhere. So I feel its right to put a "significant gap" marker after Toma/Fitz as well.

Other than that I think I agree with your rearrangmenets.
 
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