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[Dark Schala]

Suikoden sold fine, I mean, it's not that on PS2 and PS1 (where there were mainline Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Star Ocean, Tales of, etc.) had sold way better. For a low budget spin-off that had already sold well in Japan (almost on par with V) they're not bad numbers by any means.

Well, when I take that number into consideration, I try to consider the DS install base too. At least at the end of 2008 they had 30M DSes shipped in the Americas...um, if I'm reading that pdf right.... Dunno how many sold-through, though.

But, again, I guess the way sales figures are analyzed can be rather subjective.

You'll be less lost than you would be if you hadn't played FC/SC, but you'll still be missing quite a lot, especially when you get to Ao.

So importing Zero Vita wouldn't be the wisest thing to do, eh?

Edit: just saw floofy's post. Oh pooh.

 

[Stealth20k]

the vita version does seem like the best version of zero

 

[Aeana]

I dont think falcom is worried.......


nayuta is just a side game, they were very forthcoming with the fact it was not a main line title

They were also very forthcoming with their goal for the game, and one of the things they addressed is people's fears about jumping into the series without the backing of other Kiseki games. It's a game with a story that's not related to the other Kiseki games, but that's supposed to feel familiar and act as a point of interest for newcomers which will hopefully get them interested in checking out the other games.

 

[electroplankton]

Well, when I take that number into consideration, I try to consider the DS install base too. At least at the end of 2008 they had 30M DSes shipped in the Americas...um, if I'm reading that pdf right.... Dunno how many sold-through, though.

But, again, I guess the way sales figures are analyzed can be rather subjective.

So what? If you consider PS2 installed base, previous Suikoden numbers should be bad as well, right? Suikoden Tierkreis sold well, given the fact it was a spin-off, it was not on the primary Suikoden hardware, it was on handheld, it was not advertised, it was such a low-budget game.

 

[ZoddGutts]

Thank god Suikoden Tierkreis bombed. Awful game for Suikoden, well near Suikoden 4 bad.

 

[lunch]

You'll be less lost than you would be if you hadn't played FC/SC, but you'll still be missing quite a lot, especially when you get to Ao.

I actually like the way SC ends when you haven't played 3rd. It's a good, settled ending with enough threads to give you an idea of things to come, but it's not a killer 'how many plot threads are still dangling?' sort of ending.

3rd is actually my favorite of the games, story-wise, personally. ...and the three year wait that we had from 3rd to Zero, for me, was incredibly maddening. Primarily because of the fact that what was tied up nice and neat in SC was blown open for you to see in 3rd.

Don't get me wrong, 3rd is an incredible game when it comes to getting detailed information on Zemuria, and while it's a good ending without an actual cliffhanger, you will still be left with so many questions by the time all is finished.

But I do believe that Zero, and ESPECIALLY Ao no Kiseki, require some of this world building information that is brought up in 3rd. Falcom said that you could play Zero without previous knowledge of the series, but I believe that you won't have the impact of the narrative that you would've had otherwise.

Thanks for the responses. I guess I'll hold off on Zero Evolution until I finally have a way to play 3rd. 2016 can't come soon enough.

 

[Dark Schala]

Honestly, let's just face it - you have to play all of the games, in order, because they're all important. The Kiseki series is something that other developers don't try to do because they're so afraid of sales dropoff (and, I suppose to be fair, Falcom is starting to, which is one of the reasons why Nayuta is being made, despite Ao being the best-selling one by far). It's an actual ongoing story with real dependencies on previous games in each new game. And it's one of the things I love it for.

Is it just because of the lore, people involved, or huge story elements to consider for each title? Do these things get expanded upon for each new entry?

If it's just a cameo for Zero and Ao, then it's not as huge. But if the entirety of the first three games have a heavy impact on both Zero and Ao, then I see where you're coming from.

So what? If you consider PS2 installed base, previous Suikoden numbers should be bad as well, right? Suikoden Tierkreis sold well, given the fact it was a spin-off, it was not on the primary Suikoden hardware, it was on handheld, it was not advertised, it was such a low-budget game.

Well, sort of, but I seem to recall a lot of people purchasing a PS2 because it functioned as a DVD player, and they didn't primarily use it as a games machine. GS4, Rhapsodia, and GS5 (GS5 in particular, actually, since people seemed to like it more than 4, but I guess 4 poisoned the well) did have underwhelming performances in comparison to GS3. (btw, looking back, you do have a point about the games not being popular as a Squaresoft/Square-Enix title, so the sales numbers not being that high in the US in general makes sense.) But again, analysis is subject to subjectivity; that's sorta why I don't step foot into Sales-Age often. I wonder how much Tierkreis sold in its opening month at least.

I do have to wonder if they didn't announce the localization for Woven Web because of Tierkreis's US performance, or because they're Konami being Konami, though. I'll just agree to disagree here like last time. :O

 

[Aeana]

Is it just because of the lore, people involved, or huge story elements to consider for each title? Do these things get expanded upon for each new entry?

If it's just a cameo for Zero and Ao, then it's not as huge. But if the entirety of the first three games have a heavy impact on both Zero and Ao, then I see where you're coming from.

No, it's not just cameos for Zero and Ao. There are main story threads that relate to past events from FC/SC/3rd, and major characters that show up and it's assumed you know what they did before, as well. This is less of an issue in Zero than it is in Ao, though, however Zero leads directly into Ao.

 

[omgfloofy]

Is it just because of the lore, people involved, or huge story elements to consider for each title? Do these things get expanded upon for each new entry?

If it's just a cameo for Zero and Ao, then it's not as huge. But if the entirety of the first three games have a heavy impact on both Zero and Ao, then I see where you're coming from.

Actually, it is the lore and information. Each of the Kiseki titles tends to "take a step back" and let you see a bit more of the world each time, and they tend to explain a lot of little details on it.

Then the next game jumps into the story, taking that information you've already learned into account, and builds on it more. So it's like you didn't get certain pieces of the puzzle, and Zero and Ao move onto the new part of the 'whole picture,' but don't provide those pieces to you... yet they're the pieces that hold it into the whole picture.

It's wholly possible to build on what you know, but you will still need to go back and play 3rd at some point.

 

[The Return of]

Thank god Suikoden Tierkreis bombed. Awful game for Suikoden, well near Suikoden 4 bad.

It really wasn't...Tierkreis was actually a great rpg.
Sure, it didn't have some of the traditions that the franchise has, but still shouldn't cloud one's opinion on the game..

 

[Aeana]

Actually, it is the lore and information. Each of the Kiseki titles tends to "take a step back" and let you see a bit more of the world each time, and they tend to explain a lot of little details on it.

Then the next game jumps into the story, taking that information you've already learned into account, and builds on it more. So it's like you didn't get certain pieces of the puzzle, and Zero and Ao move onto the new part of the 'whole picture,' but don't provide those pieces to you... yet they're the pieces that hold it into the whole picture.

It's wholly possible to build on what you know, but you will still need to go back and play 3rd at some point.

While mostly true, I can't imagine how lost people would be if they played Ao without even having played SC due to how important certain individuals and organizations are, with no introduction whatsoever in Ao.

 

[Stealth20k]

They were also very forthcoming with their goal for the game, and one of the things they addressed is people's fears about jumping into the series without the backing of other Kiseki games. It's a game with a story that's not related to the other Kiseki games, but that's supposed to feel familiar and act as a point of interest for newcomers which will hopefully get them interested in checking out the other games.

I dont know so much about new comers, but the rest is right.


Its like when Ys tries its hand at rts, its something they do to test


People hate suikoden T, not because it wasnt good but because it was a side game which I think is wrong. Its a very very solid title

 

[flowsnake]

This conversation is both interesting and depressing because I can't see the later games being localized.

 

[Stealth20k]

This conversation is both interesting and depressing because I can't see the later games being localized.

its rough because literally the smallest localization team in the US got the rights to the largest rpg trilogy in history

so it was never a good fit regardless of how good the quality of the actual localizations turns out to be.

The only reason why they were able to do 4 ys, is they got massive outside help with the scripts. With last story, they are using nintendo of europes localization and translation, so they avoided that mess to. Same deal with sloatorob, they used nintendo again.


With heroes, they have nobody to fall back on.

 

[omgfloofy]

Its like when Ys tries its hand at rts, its something they do to test

If you're talking about Ys Strategy (or Ys Tragedy?), that wasn't Falcom who made it. That was Marvelous Interactive.

While mostly true, I can't imagine how lost people would be if they played Ao without even having played SC due to how important certain individuals and organizations are, with no introduction whatsoever in Ao.

I actually only meant with 3rd. The other two, I believe, are 100% essential for Ao no Kiseki.

 

[flowsnake]

How big are Zero and Ao compared to the trilogy?

 

[Stealth20k]

How big are Zero and Ao compared to the trilogy?

They are comparable to the second/ third games which were enormous.

Tom once described Second chapter has 20 ff 12's duck taped, even if thats exaggerated, you get the idea


@omg
they still green lighted that idea I mean, it was there call

 

[omgfloofy]

How big are Zero and Ao compared to the trilogy?

I think Zero is probably comparable to SC in size.

However, I believe that Falcom's president has outright said that Ao no Kiseki is their largest title to date.

They are comparable to the second/ third games which were enormous.

3rd actually isn't anywhere near as large as SC. In fact, if you look at the photo, the main scenario of 3rd is shorter than FC- and 3rd actually have very very little NPC dialogue. The only reason 3rd's script is larger than FC is because the side quests in 3rd make up MORE TEXT than the main story itself.

they still green lighted that idea I mean, it was there call

No, they licensed it to Marvelous. That's different than 'green lighting' a project. Marvelous paid Falcom a particular amount of money to say, 'We want to use Ys to make a game!' 'Hey, money. Sweet. Go ahead.' (That's a stupidly simple description of licensing at work.)

 

[Dark Schala]

No, it's not just cameos for Zero and Ao. There are main story threads that relate to past events from FC/SC/3rd, and major characters that show up and it's assumed you know what they did before, as well. This is less of an issue in Zero than it is in Ao, though, however Zero leads directly into Ao.

Actually, it is the lore and information. Each of the Kiseki titles tends to "take a step back" and let you see a bit more of the world each time, and they tend to explain a lot of little details on it.

Then the next game jumps into the story, taking that information you've already learned into account, and builds on it more. So it's like you didn't get certain pieces of the puzzle, and Zero and Ao move onto the new part of the 'whole picture,' but don't provide those pieces to you... yet they're the pieces that hold it into the whole picture.

Ah, I see. Thanks to the both of you.

I sorta thought they were a little self-contained, but since they don't appear to be from what you're both saying, I guess you really do have to play all of them to get everything... and I guess that's why they made Kiseki its own sorta thing now. That video with the huge scripts for all of the games kind of underscore that.

To be honest, I'm starting to think listening to the Zero soundtrack and Zero arrange might have been a mistake. They're huge reasons why I want to play Zero so badly.

People hate suikoden T, not because it wasnt good but because it was a side game which I think is wrong. Its a very very solid title

It's a very good RPG with a killer soundtrack (well, two, really). It's not a good Suikoden game.

 

[Stealth20k]

I think Zero is probably comparable to SC in size.

However, I believe that Falcom's president has outright said that Ao no Kiseki is their largest title to date.

yes he did say that. But I mean , its all way to much text

 

[Aeana]

Ah, I see. Thanks to the both of you.

I sorta thought they were a little self-contained, but since they don't appear to be from what you're both saying, I guess you really do have to play all of them to get everything... and I guess that's why they made Kiseki its own sorta thing now. That video with the huge scripts for all of the games kind of underscore that.

To be honest, I'm starting to think listening to the Zero soundtrack and Zero arrange might have been a mistake. They're huge reasons why I want to play Zero so badly.


It's a very good RPG with a killer soundtrack (well, two, really). It's not a good Suikoden game.

If your Japanese is good enough for Tales, it should be good enough for Kiseki. You should get started on SC right away~ And feel free to ask me anything you like if you're not sure about something, I could chat about those games all day.

 

[omgfloofy]

yes he did say that. But I mean , its all way to much text

Hahaha- and Ao no Kiseki took me way longer than any other Kiseki title to finish on my first playthrough. (I think my save is about 105 hours long, and I stopped doing the side quests late in the game, just to see what happened next.)

It had the 'I'M NOT AT THE END YET??' syndrome- but that's not a bad thing.

 

[Taruranto]

This conversation is both interesting and depressing because I can't see the later games being localized.

I literally started studying Japanese so i can play the Kiseki series lol.

IF we ever see these games in English it wouldn't be before 5-6 years, considering how much time is taking to release SC...

 

[Stealth20k]

I think we could all talk about these rpgs all day 8 pages later lol.


Honestly I wished atlus, or even nis america, or possibly even aksys picked up the games because I knew the situation might happen.

It was just too large a series for a small team to handle.....

I mean in a crazy world of those titles were on the 3ds, or ds, I think nintendo might of even helped xseed out


Sidenote: ive been importing games since the nes days, but its still very hard for me to work through games, I dont have a good language learning gene so I write things down, and memorize

 

[Delusibeta]

I wonder what they're position on PC gaming will be next week, knowing the Ys Oath will be massively discounted in five days time, and Steam's sales traditionally producing revenue at a rate that holding your colours is the best course of action if you're monitoring the stats screen.

 

[omgfloofy]

Honestly I wished atlus, or even nis america, or possibly even aksys picked up the games because I knew the situation might happen.

Actually, Atlus is one of the companies that said 'are you nuts??'

 

[Stealth20k]

Actually, Atlus is one of the companies that said 'are you nuts??'

Did they? And they have localization teams of about 15-30 people.......so if they said are you nuts.......

wow, xseed has major balls with a team of 5-

 

[omgfloofy]

Did they? And they have localization teams of about 15-30 people.......so if they said are you nuts.......

wow, xseed has major balls with a team of 5-

I believe that to be the case, yeah. I don't know the details for other companies, but I remember hearing that at one point, but I don't remember where.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

You have my money. You just have to reach out for it.

 

[speedpop]

As long as the ports are done by a competent team. Last thing we need is another scenario of what Bandai did to the Gagharv Trilogy on PSP. I'm halfway through A Tear of Vermillion and, despite enjoying it, I can see why people heavily dislike it compared to the original PC release.

And if this means that I can finally get official English titles of their games on PC then so be it.

 

[Stealth20k]

As long as the ports are done by a competent team. Last thing we need is another scenario of what Bandai did to the Gagharv Trilogy on PSP. I'm halfway through A Tear of Vermillion and, despite enjoying it, I can see why people heavily dislike it compared to the original PC release.

And if this means that I can finally get official English titles of their games on PC then so be it.

Well Yeah namco didnt show it respect

but there is a difference between not showing it respect but getting it out


and showing respect, but never getting it out

 

[Aeana]

Hahaha- and Ao no Kiseki took me way longer than any other Kiseki title to finish on my first playthrough. (I think my save is about 105 hours long, and I stopped doing the side quests late in the game, just to see what happened next.)

Huh. That's interesting. Zero actually took me longer than Ao, and I did every sidequest in both of them. Looking at my saves, Zero took me 60:01:32 and Ao took me 47:12:57.

 

[Stealth20k]

I believe that to be the case, yeah. I don't know the details for other companies, but I remember hearing that at one point, but I don't remember where.

thats pretty funny.

And atlus does srpgs with a lot of text all the time.

Growlanser IV is the largest rpg theyve ever done they said


And if they wont touch legend of heroes, that makes you think

 

[omgfloofy]

Huh. That's interesting. Zero actually took me longer than Ao, and I did every sidequest in both of them. Looking at my saves, Zero took me 60:01:32 and Ao took me 47:12:57.

I actually did a TON of wandering around in Ao no Kiseki. I regularly ran to talk to a bunch of NPCs and all. I was trying to get different relationship levels, and managed to find a bunch of hidden quests on accident by going out of my way for certain things.

thats pretty funny.

And atlus does srpgs with a lot of text all the time.

Growlanser IV is the largest rpg theyve ever done they said


And if they wont touch legend of heroes, that makes you think

I imagine it's partly the cost of the license as well as the text. If you release one game, you will be obligated to release the other two in the original trilogy. I wouldn't be surprised if XSEED had some sort of deal due to having a partnership with Falcom.

That would mean that XSEED would have a better cost to offset the work. They /did/ decline the games once before as well. I remember hearing at one point before the partnership was announced that they had said that they really wanted to release the Kiseki trilogy, but couldn't afford to do it.

 

[Stealth20k]

xseed did make the deal for all 3

People just assumed they could handle it. They really cant. And its not there fault, they bit off more than they can chew

 

[omgfloofy]

xseed did make the deal for all 3

People just assumed they could handle it. They really cant. And its not there fault, they bit off more than they can chew

Granted, I don't think there are very many companies that could have handled it, to be honest.

 

[Aeana]

xseed did make the deal for all 3

People just assumed they could handle it. They really cant. And its not there fault, they bit off more than they can chew

Actually, if you look back at the announcement, most people assumed they wouldn't be able to get all three Kiseki games out. People who were familiar with the amount of content, anyway. Add to that the fact that the PSP was already dead in the west at the time of the announcement, things didn't look very good from the start.

 

[flowsnake]

I literally started studying Japanese so i can play the Kiseki series lol.

IF we ever see these games in English it wouldn't be before 5-6 years, considering how much time is taking to release SC...

Wouldn't it take longer than that to become fluent in Japanese anyway?

 

[Stealth20k]

Actually, if you look back at the announcement, most people assumed they wouldn't be able to get all three Kiseki games out. People who were familiar with the amount of content, anyway. Add to that the fact that the PSP was already dead in the west at the time of the announcement, things didn't look very good from the start.

Sorry I am new to neogaf. I dont know all neogaf past lore. Forgive me.

Well the platform had nothing to do with this development, they are very committed to the psp.

Its the text. Thats the real burden. They dont have a size team that can handle it. Tom said trails almost destroyed them with all nighters, weekends, working holidays, and sleeping at the office

 

[RyougaSaotome]

Oh god a Kiseki thread on GAF? HELLO.

Schala, if your Japanese is good enough for Tales, you should be able to tackle the Kiseki series. There'll be some specialized words and the like, but it's nothing too awful if you can already play a fully Japanese game and understand a good chunk of the story.

And there are people here who know a lot about the series (Aeana, Floofy, myself etc) so there are always folks you can ask about stuff. =)

 

[Aeana]

Wouldn't it take longer than that to become fluent in Japanese anyway?

With enough hard work, one could be in a position where playing a Japanese game is doable in a couple of years. You don't need to be fluent, and playing games exposes you to more of the language, which helps build you up more. And I assume one wouldn't learn a language just for one or two games, it'll certainly be useful for the rest of your life.

 

[Stealth20k]

The real crazy part is falcom signed that mobile dev to also do VI part 1,2,3

which undercuts the sales potential of the xseed titles.......


To make matters worse, they wont even collaborate on localization costs.

Tom said they were blind sided by that one

 

[Aeana]

The real crazy part is falcom signed that mobile dev to also do VI part 1,2,3

which undercuts the sales potential of the xseed titles.......


To make matters worse, they wont even collaborate on localization costs

That didn't happen. That mobile deal is for an original social-focused Kiseki game. The info is all in this interview. In Japanese, but omgfloofy may have translated it on esterior.net

 

[Stealth20k]

That didn't happen. That mobile deal is for an original social-focused Kiseki game. The info is all in this interview. In Japanese, but omgfloofy may have translated it on esterior.net

What do you mean it didnt happen? ( this is news to me)

http://www.joystiq.com/2011/12/27/legend-of-heroes-series-heading-to-smartphones/

this was nonsense?

 

[omgfloofy]

That didn't happen. That mobile deal is for an original social-focused Kiseki game. The info is all in this interview. In Japanese, but omgfloofy may have translated it on esterior.net

What do you mean it didnt happen? ( this is news to me)

http://www.joystiq.com/2011/12/27/legend-of-heroes-series-heading-to-smartphones/

this was nonsense?

Beat you to it. Posted my link earlier in the thread, actually.

They were not, no.

Also, I reported on that Japanese link about the Smartphone Kiseki title, for people who want to know the info, but can't read the text:
http://www.esterior.net/2012/04/app-fami-interviews-aeria-games-on-the-sora-no-kiseki-ios-game/

Everyone had assumed that it was going to be a smartphone port of the Kiseki titles when it was first announced.

The assumption was 100% incorrect, in the end. They never said anything about it being the original Kiseki trilogy in the press release. At all.

 

[Stealth20k]

wow i didnt know that at all.

 

[PixyJunket]

I kind of hope this goes beyond the Trails/Kiseki games.

It's the one thing Falcom does that I'm not really into.

 

[Dark Schala]

If your Japanese is good enough for Tales, it should be good enough for Kiseki. You should get started on SC right away~ And feel free to ask me anything you like if you're not sure about something, I could chat about those games all day.

Schala, if your Japanese is good enough for Tales, you should be able to tackle the Kiseki series. There'll be some specialized words and the like, but it's nothing too awful if you can already play a fully Japanese game and understand a good chunk of the story.

And there are people here who know a lot about the series (Aeana, Floofy, myself etc) so there are always folks you can ask about stuff. =)

Aw, thanks for offering to help.

I was under the impression that the Kiseki games were really difficult because of all of the text involved and the possibility of some stuff I don't know. I don't mind playing them in Japanese, and The 3rd's pretty cheap now (I have a copy of SC but haven't had the chance to pour a lot of time into it yet). I hope the rest of the games are as good as everyone says they are. It's been quite a while since I've played a game for mostly the story.

 

[Stealth20k]

I kind of hope this goes beyond the Trails/Kiseki games.

It's the one thing Falcom does that I'm not really into.

I dont see them doing much beside heroes and ys.

They are going to ride that money train and new found popularity for awhile

even though in my heart of hearts I want brandish 3

 

[Augemitbutter]

Thank god Suikoden Tierkreis bombed. Awful game for Suikoden, well near Suikoden 4 bad.

i'm glad as well. SIV was a much better game. it took me 6 months to finish Tierkreis, it was just a sad affair for a suiko title. all previous suiko games were played multiple times, including 4.

So what? If you consider PS2 installed base, previous Suikoden numbers should be bad as well, right? Suikoden Tierkreis sold well, given the fact it was a spin-off, it was not on the primary Suikoden hardware, it was on handheld, it was not advertised, it was such a low-budget game.

what makes you think that Tierkreis was a low-budget game? because that's not true at atll.