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[Coffeeling]

3rd Strike being so loved is something I'll never understand.

It's nice looking yes, but it really hurt the scene. Parrying is awful.

Why is parrying awful

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/951196/#Comment_951196

Bringing this over here because something interesting might come from it. Why do you think that's a good answer, Dahbomb? A lot of Viscant's argument just seems pretty bitter "It's not ST" type of thing. Also typical in the sense that they take a situation where they parry whatever you do and make it the general case to try to argue that nothing matters anymore.

He also speaks of general goddamn strategy as mindgames. Forgoing damage for position is something I don't classify as mind games as all. It feels like saying that a tank contain in Starcraft or destroying the opponent's lands in Magic is a mind game. F**k no it isn't. It's one thing to complain about parry curtailing strategic variety (which it absolutely does, especially damaging long range archetypes especially).

Basically:

I like how people want to bring down 3rd Strike, they reference Yun, Ken and Chun dominating in the US, which was like the weakest scene on Earth for 3S. Stop repeating what ST players said.

 

[N4Us]

Arcadestream starting now, lots of players there including Tokido and Infiltration

http://www.twitch.tv/arcadestream

 

[K.Sabot]

Hopefully NWM MKX gets better stream time than is being advertised, the lineup of players is actually pretty good.

 

[Coffeeling]

Arcadestream starting now, lots of players there including Tokido and Infiltration

http://www.twitch.tv/arcadestream

That's the GG/DoA channel. In other words, whyyyy am I still at work ;__;

 

[N4Us]

That's the GG/DoA channel. In other words, whyyyy am I still at work ;__;

I'm at the NWM hotel and my roomate's alarm went off and I dunno how to turn it off

 

[Exr]

I wanted to respond to that but I didnt want to derail the thread any further. People try to apply zoning strats from SF2 and instead of adapting to new ranges for a new game they instead say parrying sucks. Then they talk about guess parrying which is the stupidest complaint ever. Yeah you can get guess parried but its not like the game is nothing but guess parries...watch SF3 at anything above a scrub level and you see how prevalent guess parries are.
Plus linking to a ten year old thread with ST players bitching tells me nothing.

 

[Thomasorus]

To sum up a bit the arguments against 3S :

• The parry in 3S is way to easy to do (7frames window I think, reduced to 5f in 3.3B)
• The fact that it negates everything (even damage) makes it the best solution to any problem you might have
• It doesn't take any resources so you're free to try it anytime you want (and that is: all the time)
• The input method for parry makes it possible to option select it a lot
• It kills the ranged game as SF characters were not designed to make the ranged game more strong
• It also weakens heavy/fast pokes characters like viscant explained
• Since everyone can parry anything, high/low mixups are weakened thus many characters have a command throw
• This makes a lot of characters having a similar movelist
• The 50/50 thing in certain situations is annoying

I think that the the success of the parry is the absolute and simple aspect of the mechanic that seduce people. It is the best thing to do, it's seen as high risk/high reward (which is not that true), it's impressive and it's hard to do (not that much). Actually the parry negates a lot of the aspects of Street Fighter and makes SF3 being his own thing, a different kind of game.
Other games have parry but all of them knew doing it like 3S wasn't a good idea and did it differently. In GGAC the parry exists to force setplay characters to change their offense and it can be done from the gard but it's 3 frames and can't be option selected (and can be punished). Even Big Band in Skullgirls has the 3.3 parry... But he takes a part of the damage from the moves he parries.

 

[BadWolf]

Just Defend from Garou Mark of the Wolves is the more balanced take on the parry mechanic.

 

[Thomasorus]

Just Defend from Garou Mark of the Wolves is the more balanced take on the parry mechanic.

It would be better if harder to do but doable from guard. If I'm not mistaking, you can't JD once you're on block against multi-hit moves. Jenet pressing you with her dress or divekick makes it a problem and you get gardcrushed in no time. Being able to do it from guard could help but it might create other problems tho.

 

[Revven]

Another weekend and it's another Melee major, this one is sure to be good as its run by competent/experienced TOs! Super Nebulous 3 tournament thread feat. VGBC Hax, S2J, Lucky, LLL Jeapie, HomeMadeWaffles, Kirbykaze, DJ Nintendo, The Moon, Zhu, Cactuar, and more! Going to be a really interesting tournament -- lots of good players but no Gods, it's anyone's tournament to win!

 

[kitzkozan]

To sum up a bit the arguments against 3S :

• The parry in 3S is way to easy to do (7frames window I think, reduced to 5f in 3.3B)
• The fact that it negates everything (even damage) makes it the best solution to any problem you might have
• It doesn't take any resources so you're free to try it anytime you want (and that is: all the time)
• The input method for parry makes it possible to option select it a lot
• It kills the ranged game as SF characters were not designed to make the ranged game more strong
• It also weakens heavy/fast pokes characters like viscant explained
• Since everyone can parry anything, high/low mixups are weakened thus many characters have a command throw
• This makes a lot of characters having a similar movelist
• The 50/50 thing in certain situations is annoying

I think that the the success of the parry is the absolute and simple aspect of the mechanic that seduce people. It is the best thing to do, it's seen as high risk/high reward (which is not that true), it's impressive and it's hard to do (not that much). Actually the parry negates a lot of the aspects of Street Fighter and makes SF3 being his own thing, a different kind of game.
Other games have parry but all of them knew doing it like 3S wasn't a good idea and did it differently. In GGAC the parry exists to force setplay characters to change their offense and it can be done from the guard but it's 3 frames and can't be option selected (and can be punished). Even Big Band in Skullgirls has the 3.3 parry... But he takes a part of the damage from the moves he parries.

Capcom experimented a lot between 1996 and 2001, and they never were able to properly implement their ideas in any game they made. When you take a long hard look at the company, Capcom never was the best in making fighting games. Namco, SNK and Sega had better teams in terms of technical abilities (having better game systems, as even a failed game like KOF 2012 implemented an excellent custom combo mechanic while Capcom failed 3 time in a row: SF alpha 2, 3 & CvS 2).

 

[sixteen-bit]

KOF 2012

this confused me for a sec since the last KOF came out in 2011 (KOF13)

 

[irfaanator]

I think whiffed normals for meter sucks as well in 3s/mvc2.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Saying SNK makes better fighting games than Capcom is like saying Platinum makes better action games.

Does it really count if the new team is made up of ex-Capcom employees?

 

[pixelish]

Arcadestream starting now, lots of players there including Tokido and Infiltration

http://www.twitch.tv/arcadestream

on one hand, it's nice to see laugh playing on stream after a somewhat long absence. on the other hand, i'm annoyed that he has defected to the dark side like most of the other ryu players by switching to e ryu.

 

[Exr]

I admit the window for parries is a bit much, 7 frames is too much. Long range combat doesnt even exist in 3S beyond Remy so I dont understand how parries negate that. If you watch most 3S footage you dont see very many guess parries and reckless parry mashing so again, I dont know where you are getting that from. I mean, you CAN play like a parry masher but at that point its on the opponent to recognize that and adapt by switching his timing up. If you keep getting guess parried its on you, not the game. You cant play 3S like other SFs and expect to win regularly.
Oh yeah, whiffing for meter is garbo too, Ill never defend that.

 

[Thulius]

If you watch most 3S footage you dont see very many guess parries and reckless parry mashing so again, I dont know where you are getting that from.

Watch literally any Chun match and count how many times she randomly crouches for a frame or two in footsies.

Other characters certainly do it too, but if you don't notice it with Chun's wild crouch animation you're not even paying attention. I'm not gonna sit here and act like any idiot can pick up the game and do well but saying that guess parries aren't a thing in high level 3S is insane.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

I just didn't like how 3s got rid of the zoning/fireball game. I do like the reads you have to make and made me think more about empty jumps, overheads, and tick throws.

 

[Skilletor]

I think 3s is a good fighting game.

I hate it as a street fighter, though.

Also find it hilarious when 3s defenders try to act like Ken/Chun/Yun don't dominate.

 

[call_kotaku]

I think a lot of people forget that 3s/MvC2 had almost the same perception amongst the FGC pre-2009 as SF4/MvC3 have within the community today.

3s had the most play and the largest community because it was the newest SF game, and a lot of people played it for the competition but didn't necessarily love it, all the while complaining about how it's a dumber game than the alternatives. MvC2 had a very stagnant competitive community and devolved into moneymatching and rivalries once tournament results became predictable, plus a lot of people considered it stupid and broken.

Both games were only considered "classics" once they stopped being the most active competitive entry in their franchises, and while I wasn't around for Alpha or ST when those were the main games I assume the same process occurred with them too.

 

[Rice-Eater]

Are they doing this CPT tournament really late at night because they're trying to attack more western viewers? This is a pretty convenient time since we're all awake now. But it's like midnight over there in Korea, right?

 

[Skilletor]

I think a lot of people forget that 3s/MvC2 had almost the same perception amongst the FGC pre-2009 as SF4/MvC3 have within the community today.

3s had the most play and the largest community because it was the newest SF game, and a lot of people played it for the competition but didn't necessarily love it, all the while complaining about how it's a dumber game than the alternatives. MvC2 had a very stagnant competitive community and devolved into moneymatching and rivalries once tournament results became predictable, plus a lot of people considered it stupid and broken.

Both games were only considered "classics" once they stopped being the most active competitive entry in their franchises, and while I wasn't around for Alpha or ST when those were the main games I assume the same process occurred with them too.

It's funny for me to see people saying 3s is some super difficult game when, at the time of release, it was considered very slow and super easy. Inputs were much less strict than everything that came before, super cancels meant it was easy to confirm into a super, long animations meant it was very easy to punish things with quick activation supers (made easier to do because of the lenient inputs).

The more things change.

 

[kitzkozan]

this confused me for a sec since the last KOF came out in 2011 (KOF13)

Lol, it's not even that 2012 version I wanted to mention as an example. It's KOF 12 with the mechanic named "critical counters".

 

[Dahbomb]

Bringing this over here because something interesting might come from it. Why do you think that's a good answer, Dahbomb? A lot of Viscant's argument just seems pretty bitter "It's not ST" type of thing. Also typical in the sense that they take a situation where they parry whatever you do and make it the general case to try to argue that nothing matters anymore.

He also speaks of general goddamn strategy as mindgames. Forgoing damage for position is something I don't classify as mind games as all. It feels like saying that a tank contain in Starcraft or destroying the opponent's lands in Magic is a mind game. F**k no it isn't. It's one thing to complain about parry curtailing strategic variety (which it absolutely does, especially damaging long range archetypes especially).

Basically:

I just linked to the post as giving one side of the argument.

I don't hate parries or have something against 3rd Strike. It's its own game, its interesting in that aspect.

However, Viscant is right that the parry negates a lot of aspects of SF like zoning or long ranged poking. That in turn limits the type of characters you can put into the game or the playstyles you can have. The mechanic itself is also extremely powerful, it's a "answer for everything" type situation which isn't good design.

Basically what Thomasorus said in his post. Now the part where Viscant takes about positioning and trading hits, you are right that is strategy nor mind games although I would have to go back and read it to confirm his context.

 

[kitzkozan]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";161415481]Saying SNK makes better fighting games than Capcom is like saying Platinum makes better action games.

Does it really count if the new team is made up of ex-Capcom employees?[/QUOTE]

They don't necessarily make better games, but they are usually more competent technically. Ultimately, what people view as the best game or what should be the most played is just about irrelevant. SFIV is the most played worldwide and the Smash bros. Melee western competitive community is going strong. VF is unpopular and KOF / anime is niche and that's all there is to it. It's not really going to change anytime soon and that's okay, just like the NFL has a mainstream stranglehold on team sport in north america and the NHL will lag behind the big three in the US (NFL, MLB and NBA).

 

[alstein]

Some other games that had better parry systems than 3S:

KOF: Maximum Impact 2
Akatsuki Blitzkampf
Yatagarasu
Battle Fantasia

whiff animations are important for parries.

I don't think MOTW improved on it that much.

 

[Rice-Eater]

All this parry talk is pretty interesting. As someone who played every SF the same exact way for over 15 years(throw fireballs, jump kick > sweep) before SF4 came out I thought 3S was the greatest shit ever when I first saw the Daigo parry video which was my introduction to the FGC. Then SF4 came out and I got serious with a fighting game for the first time and though I may suck at it, I understood certain things about fighting games so much more. That's when I changed my mind about 3S and the parry system.

I read that post by Viscant from Dahbomb's post and I agree with everything he said. I'm not against parrying altogether, I just don't want it in my SF games. When someone jumps, I think it should always be a risk. No guessing games, either your opponent can anti-air your or he/she can't. No parrying or air blocking, not in SF anyways.

If it ever came back, I'd never want to see it the way it was in 3S. I don't think it should be possible in the air and have a whiff animation similar to Gouken's or Juri's special moves. I've played MOTW but never broke it down, just did special moves so I don't fully understand just defend since I never used it. But if it's a good take on the parry system then I wouldn't mind something like that if implemented in SFV.

 

[BadWolf]

0If it ever came back, I'd never want to see it the way it was in 3S. I don't think it should be possible in the air and have a whiff animation similar to Gouken's or Juri's special moves. I've played MOTW but never broke it down, just did special moves so I don't fully understand just defend since I never used it. But if it's a good take on the parry system then I wouldn't mind something like that if implemented in SFV.

What makes it more balanced is in the way you punish after Just Defending.

You don't get a decent chunk of time to input any combo you want but are instead limited only to guard canceling at the moment of the Just Defend with a special move, so only special moves and supers can be used to punish. And the timing to input the command is strict (trying to normally input a special after seeing the JD happen is usually too late unless you are really fast, so usually you have to expect the JD to happen and buffer the special ahead of time).

You also get a tiny bit of health back and JDing multi-hitting moves is much less execution heavy (only the first JD must be timed, you can mash for the rest).

Yagatarasu also seems to be handling the mechanic well, check out Juicebox's channel for a vid on it. There is a dedicated button and whiff animations so doing a bad parry is a risk and results in taking more damage.

If they are going to leave guard damage from normals in SFV then yeah, I expect them to have some kind of parry or JD mechanic.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Parries are sweet. I love 3s.

 

[call_kotaku]

What makes it more balanced is in the way you punish after Just Defending.

You don't get a decent chunk of time to input any combo you want but are instead limited only to guard canceling at the moment of the Just Defend with a special move, so only special moves and supers can be used to punish. And the timing to input the command is strict (trying to normally input a special after seeing the JD happen is usually too late unless you are really fast, so usually you have to expect the JD to happen and buffer the special ahead of time).

You also get a tiny bit of health back and JDing multi-hitting moves is much less execution heavy (only the first JD must be timed, you can mash for the rest).

If they are going to leave guard damage from normals in SFV then yeah, I expect them to have some kind of parry or JD mechanic.

Don't brake-able specials allow some pretty good damage off guard canceling just-defends? Like with Terry and Rock? I never played MOTW at a high enough level for that to be a factor, so I have no real perception for the footsies of that game.

 

[BadWolf]

Don't brake-able specials allow some pretty good damage off guard canceling just-defends? Like with Terry and Rock? I never played MOTW at a high enough level for that to be a factor, so I have no real perception for the footsies of that game.

Check out these awesome matches to get a feel for the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjC8XWWkOkI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDfABrqkvSQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO2lSMrDpJ0

 

[Marz]

All this parry talk is pretty interesting. As someone who played every SF the same exact way for over 15 years(throw fireballs, jump kick > sweep) before SF4 came out I thought 3S was the greatest shit ever when I first saw the Daigo parry video which was my introduction to the FGC. Then SF4 came out and I got serious with a fighting game for the first time and though I may suck at it, I understood certain things about fighting games so much more. That's when I changed my mind about 3S and the parry system.

I read that post by Viscant from Dahbomb's post and I agree with everything he said. I'm not against parrying altogether, I just don't want it in my SF games. When someone jumps, I think it should always be a risk. No guessing games, either your opponent can anti-air your or he/she can't. No parrying or air blocking, not in SF anyways.

If it ever came back, I'd never want to see it the way it was in 3S. I don't think it should be possible in the air and have a whiff animation similar to Gouken's or Juri's special moves. I've played MOTW but never broke it down, just did special moves so I don't fully understand just defend since I never used it. But if it's a good take on the parry system then I wouldn't mind something like that if implemented in SFV.

Cosign.

 

[Mr. X]

I like parries cause it breaks the "when you're here, do X, if you're here do Y and if he does this, do Z". If I know you know this I can blow you up. If you know I know then you have to change it up to blow me up and it keeps the match dynamic instead of textbook.

It's like sidestepping in VF pretty much.

Priority in 3S is fucked up though. The heavy beats medium and lights if they overlap instead of trading.

Just defend is insta-block. You block at the last second to gain meter and reduce block stun.

3S hascharacter variety. Everyone is like Chun, Yun and Ken when Makoto and Yang are up there as popular counterpicks. US sucked, they would qualify for SBO and lose 1st round to Twelve OCV.

 

[CurlyW]

I like how M'Ellis basically just retconned what happened in the Blazblue community last year. That was very cool and good.

 

[Coffeeling]

Gutter Trash 1 or 2 was won by Necro vs. Yun.

 

[Professor Beef]

I hate how normal throws beat out command throws in 3S.

 

[kitzkozan]

I like parries cause it breaks the "when you're here, do X, if you're here do Y and if he does this, do Z". If I know you know this I can blow you up. If you know I know then you have to change it up to blow me up and it keeps the match dynamic instead of textbook.

It's like sidestepping in VF pretty much.

Priority in 3S is fucked up though. The heavy beats medium and lights if they overlap instead of trading.

Just defend is insta-block. You block at the last second to gain meter and reduce block stun.

3S has character variety. Everyone is like Chun, Yun and Ken when Makoto and Yang are up there as popular counterpicks. US sucked, they would qualify for SBO and lose 1st round to Twelve OCV.

But how is that a bad thing from a competitive standpoint? One of the great thing about a competitive event can be the moment when an athlete overcome an expected situation no? In baseball, my favorite aspect has always been the confrontation between a pitcher and the hitter because of the mindgames. If the team batting was facing a pitcher like Randy Johnson which you knew would fire numerous 100 mph fastball during his dominant streak, there was nothing more hype than seeing him being blown out or seeing 2-3 points scored on him in the same inning.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Meh, 3S was fun. It wasn't like sf2, because it was sf3. It was its own thing. Different than sf2 play style? Yup. Was that bad? I dont think so. It was something different.

Though, whiffing normals was dumb. And Yun short super bar was dumb. And theres other little things wrong. It ain't perfect.

 

[Mr. X]

Gutter Trash 1 or 2 was won by Necro vs. Yun.

It was Pino or Sugiyama right?

 

[Coffeeling]

It was Pino or Sugiyama right?

Victor v. Massi. Victor's defected to Chun now though <3 (Nothing against Necro, but actually seeing several players play your character competently is a nice change compared to the only Chun player at the first two events as far as I saw just mess up his confirms and get mauled by Scaffa.)

 

[Mr. X]

But how is that a bad thing from a competitive standpoint? One of the great thing about a competitive event can be the moment when an athlete overcome an expected situation no? In baseball, my favorite aspect has always been the confrontation between a pitcher and the hitter because of the mindgames. If the team batting was facing a pitcher like Randy Johnson which you knew would fire numerous 100 mph fastball during his dominant streak, there was nothing more hype than seeing him being blown out or seeing 2-3 points scored on him in the same inning.

I don't find guaranteed situations fun. Like Seth sonic boom ultra trap if the sonic boom chip kills you (that was removed). My only option to beat it is to not get myself to that point. SF3 is crazy different from typical SF, that's why I'm attracted to it. What SF3 is is what I like.

 

[Shackzam]

When's the tournament supposed to start?

 

[Tik-Tok]

When's the tournament supposed to start?

What Tournament?

 

[Shackzam]

What Tournament?

NorthWest Majors

 

[BadWolf]

NorthWest Majors

According to OP:

Northwest Majors 7 [ Friday ] [ 9PM EDT | 6PM PDT ]

 

[Shackzam]

According to OP:

Northwest Majors 7 [ Friday ] [ 9PM EDT | 6PM PDT ]

That's really late for a tournament

 

[Tripon]

Its just Friday night. Saturday and Sunday are all day.

 

[chriskun]

Check out these awesome matches to get a feel for the game:]

I want more Garou!!!!

 

[sikvod00]

Xaio Hai definitely is a buster.. now Smug? Nah.

Lost 4-5 to Sako and Xian. Both matches could've really went either way.

True. I thought Sako's Elena was going to destroy Dudley's legs after seeing the abuse from Gamerbee. You gotta figure it's a combination of Smug learning and Sako not exactly understanding what to do in theplayer MU. Gamerbee has played Smug at least once last year and in a MM this year (I think?) before bringing out the counter.

 

[Rhapsody]

I think parries are neat, but I wouldn't want it in every game (especially as that kind).

What I liked about 3S was how they tried to revolve the character playstyles around parry, and build off of that. To make an entire game around that instead of making parry an afterthought addition made the game pretty interesting to me. Even the fluid animations on startups probably had parries in mind for the player.