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Fighting Games Weekly | Mar 9-15 | Sponsored by Popeyes

V

vulva

Member
edit: ^^^ I'm sure that's the game he was referring to with the "would've" which means he knows they did before.
Sayad said:
Ok, lets assume no one in Capcom netcode dev team read English and finding someone who can help them with it is impossible, what was the excuse for Namco-Bandai who already have a team that worked on GGPO, why are they making their own rollback netcode now instead of just licensing GGPO?

Also, isolated case is a bit reaching, GGPO as whole had about six clients(according to that wiki link), 2 of them being Japanese devs is pretty hard to count as "isolated cases".
Click to expand...

Re:Namco: It was used in one game, maybe they didn't like the process of using the netcode? I mean it's really hard to answer why they are making their own since I don't work there but I don't know why you'd assume that they would want to use it again when the only time they used it was once 4 years ago. Maybe they ran in to some issues during the development time, maybe there were aspects they didn't like etc. I can't answer with confidence but I can imagine that if they were completely happy with the results of GGPO that they'd have no issue re-using it.

Regarding the scenario you presented about it being impossible to get an english speaker on the team, that's not strictly the issue. Game development studios can go through staff very frequently so consistency is needed to allow for staff changes to allow for the optimal workflow. Lets pretend that SF5 team had an english speaking engineer on their team who pushed for GGPO and got approval. What happens if they leave because of whatever reason (new job opportunity, fired for being inept, bored of the job or industry, didn't get along with management etc) then the team runs in to a snag with GGPO. Now it's a huge endeavour to find someone who fits that position and is english speaking to take over. This isn't exactly a practical risk worth taking for a large studio. They want their workflow to be as smooth as possible as opposed to having a potential bottleneck that requires an extremely niche employee. Again, this isn't impossible, but in what world is that a practical risk worth taking for a studio?

Now on to Yatagarasu, this is a much smaller team and very much a passion project. This means that the likelihood of someone feeling suffocated by management or not having their voice heard etc is much lower. So the odds of whoever is comfortable working with GGPO leaving and putting them at a huge disadvantage is much lower. This is a group of people passionate, not just a hired gun for the position which is something much more likely to happen at a larger studio.

So the result of all of this is that it's not that it's impossible for GGPO to be used by a Japanese studio, rather that it's just very unappealing given the risks and potential roadblocks that could come with using a product that doesn't have strong Japanese language support.
 
M

Malice215

Member
Kadey said:
So I guess shirtless boy won?

That S6 edge is as good as mine.
Click to expand...

I was looking at the S6, but it has no expandable memory, no removable battery, and uses glass so I'll stick with my S5.

pixelish said:
am i a terrible person for enjoying most of the non-gameplay aspect of the nine states tournament? i thought most of zhi + infiltration commentary was ace. it has a nice balance between gameplay commentary and banter. i also found the tweets to be hilarious most of the time. it was really chill stream where everyone was just goofing around and not taking everything seriously as at the end of the day, we're just watching people playing video games. having said that, i really hate how zhi handled thing during the grand final.
Click to expand...

I wasn't expecting the stream to be like that beforehand, but it was a nice change of pace from eSports and golf claps.
 
T

twozerotwo

Member
woodypop said:
I turned off the stream, too. Got to be rather annoying. Not enough focus on the technical aspects of the matches to counterbalance the streaming hi-jinks. SXSW commentary, while a little dry, is more my preference when it comes to tournaments and high level play.

I love Spooky's streams, particularly when he's paired with someone really knowledgeable about the game. Strikes a pretty good balance between entertainment and information.
Click to expand...

Sp00by + Sci = GOAT
 
V

vulva

Member
CountBlackule said:
Has nothing to do with your comment, just wanted to tell you how the monthly at A&C went.

Singles, first match was against SJ. I won the first match convincingly then lost the second, came down to the last round and he was so close to winning... then got hit by the EG special and dropped the Rufus U1 to win the match
b3ppQUe.png
I some how ended up winning and didn't even deserve that shit. I'll take it tho.

Played WatchTower next, safe to say he doesn't know the Elena matchup lol. Then I had to play ItalDan.. I'm like 0-5 against ItalDan but I had a gameplan against him that I thought of after my last L to him last month. The first match... I lost an extremely close one for mashing like I wasn't beside him :/, won the second one and the last one came close, he heard me mashing and went for an U1 with Oni, but my DP went right through it and I got an easy punish. First time ever beating him in tourney ayyyyy.

Had to play General Luke next.. fuck bison b. Dude is just a wall, can't walk forward at all. I had no idea what to do, but he won the first match, I won the second, then it came down to the last round.. I whiffed a j.HK with Elena and landed right in front of him, got thrown in the corner and shenanigans to death in like 7 seconds flat. PJSalt, so close to being in Winners Finals ;_;.

Had to play L.E.S' Bison next. Got mauled the first game, brought it back the second, and at the last round again, I had him in the corner, hit an ex.MS, he does an Ultra.. my button came out and I got caught :/. I didn't think a random U1 would actually hit me but it did smh smh fuck bison b. Made it right before the Losers finals ;_;

Team tournament went better, me and Scruffs did very good. First match I OCV'd, then we faced General Luke's team we lost, then we beat like 5 more teams. Watch Towers team, General Lukes team, L.E.S' team, we actually made it to the grand finals.. and ItalDan ran a train on us like you wouldn't believe, DAWG, Broshadian didn't even have to play once. Dude changed up his style and went to town on some
FSwaNLR.png
type shit. Shit was gross yo.

Whatevs tho, first time being in the money for a tournament felt good. Finally made progress and I hope to GAWD nobody learns the Elena matchup ever.
90744551d.png
Click to expand...

Waited to respond to this once I got home. SJ's Rufus is pretty good, he hasn't really been playing SF long but he's definitely solid.

Surprised you beat Watchtower, only because he's the better Chun between myself and him. I guess we don't have any Elenas though.

LES has such a sick Bison. I play him online sometimes and I can maybe win 1/3 times. He does huge damage, knows how to use EX scissors to punish fireballs better than most and has really strong fundamentals. I can't say anything bad about the guy.

I wish I coulda been there so we could run some games. I really want to learn the Elena match, especially before EVO. I don't really know what to do against her or Rolento yet and now that people are seeing that they're viable, I'm afraid of getting scrubbed out at EVO by my own fault, instead of getting out played from a good player.
 
V

Valkerionseven

Member
I love Zhi and Infiltration to bits, between matches/setting up them on the mic is great. When matches are actually going, please focus a bit on the game. Like I said, I like them, but can only take so much of that kind of random banter before I turn it off. Can listen all day and have fun until actual matches are going on. And of course as always it get a bit out of hand in general with the topics they were blurting out, funny but might want to realize its not just friends watching these streams.

Great matches none the less and hope they keep doing events.
 
M

Mr. X

Member
Timezones would make it hard to reach Tom, flying him out would be costly. Plus, the small projects like Yata have one guy doing the netplay, not a dozen. Plus, Yata devs have connections in the US from traveling as players or US traveling there for 3S.
 
D

DryEyeRelief

Member
hitsugi said:
I missed that, what did he say?
Click to expand...

Not exact quotes

James Chen: I guess Eduardo felt like in order to match Kazunoko's randomness he needed to out random him but it didn't work out...
Ultradavid: *looks into the camera* Look, Kazunoko is a really smart player. He isn't random okay?
 
hitsugi

hitsugi

Member
DryEyeRelief said:
Not exact quotes

James Chen: I guess Eduardo felt like in order to match Kazunoko's randomness he needed to out random him but it didn't work out...
Ultradavid: *looks into the camera* Look, Kazunoko is a really smart player. He isn't random okay?
Click to expand...

Ah yes, that is a pretty popular misconception about him. Glad to hear him say that.
 
A

alstein

Member
Sometimes inserting randomness into a game is smart when it's in your favor to do so.

Recognizing when to Insert or reduce randomness is a skill that's just as important as any other.

Vs a top player it's tough because they expect a lesser player to go for it, so you really do have to pick your spots.
 
P

Prototype

Member
If a pro player does it, it's "unpredictable" and smart game play, If anyone else does it, it's "random" and they are scrub piece of shit.


Just like,
If a pro player used lots of projectiles it's "zoning" and masterful control of space, if anyone else does it it's "spamming" and they clearly don't know how to play.

XD
 
M

mbpm1

Member
alstein said:
It's not what I want out of a stream. Some guys can be funny without being stupid- Zhi isn't one of them. Neither is Aris IMO. Those two are pretty much turn off the stream for me.
Click to expand...

Comparing Aris to Zhi? No way lol

Aris is actually funny and doesn't say nearly as much stupid shit for no reason
 
S

Sayad

Member
Mr. X said:
I doubt Namco would've gave GGPO a shot without lobbying from Filthie Rich.
Click to expand...
Western community manager lobbying for a Japanese only arcade game's netcode?!... I don't know, but I rather not argue about things we know nothing about.

vulva said:
Re:Namco: It was used in one game, maybe they didn't like the process of using the netcode? I mean it's really hard to answer why they are making their own since I don't work there but I don't know why you'd assume that they would want to use it again when the only time they used it was once 4 years ago. Maybe they ran in to some issues during the development time, maybe there were aspects they didn't like etc. I can't answer with confidence but I can imagine that if they were completely happy with the results of GGPO that they'd have no issue re-using it.
Click to expand...
What we know for confidence is that language didn't stop Namco from using GGPO with their small budget game, while with bigger projects, they preferred using their own code.

Regarding the scenario you presented about it being impossible to get an english speaker on the team, that's not strictly the issue. Game development studios can go through staff very frequently so consistency is needed to allow for staff changes to allow for the optimal workflow. Lets pretend that SF5 team had an english speaking engineer on their team who pushed for GGPO and got approval. What happens if they leave because of whatever reason (new job opportunity, fired for being inept, bored of the job or industry, didn't get along with management etc) then the team runs in to a snag with GGPO. Now it's a huge endeavour to find someone who fits that position and is english speaking to take over. This isn't exactly a practical risk worth taking for a large studio. They want their workflow to be as smooth as possible as opposed to having a potential bottleneck that requires an extremely niche employee. Again, this isn't impossible, but in what world is that a practical risk worth taking for a studio?
Click to expand...
GGPO is very simple and easy to implement, it doesn't mix deep into your code that you'd have to dig through the code to tweak it. The thing you'd tinker with the most while implementing GGPO is how save states/roll backs work in your engine, and this is something that's going to be running on your own code, the same code everyone already working on the game understand. I really don't see this fantasy scenario being an issue, few notes from the guy familiar with GGPO and every one on the team should be ready to go, you wont be editing stuff in GGPO's code in order to implement it to your game.

It's cheap and its implementation is simple enough to make it the best choice for smaller devs, which is why it's picking up in that market. Yata had no other choice, it was either GGPO or no/bad netcode, their single programmer wont be writing a great netcode on his own. As your budget get bigger, you want to use your own codes as much as you can, it really is as simple as that.
 
C

CountBlack

Member
vulva said:
Waited to respond to this once I got home. SJ's Rufus is pretty good, he hasn't really been playing SF long but he's definitely solid.

Surprised you beat Watchtower, only because he's the better Chun between myself and him. I guess we don't have any Elenas though.

LES has such a sick Bison. I play him online sometimes and I can maybe win 1/3 times. He does huge damage, knows how to use EX scissors to punish fireballs better than most and has really strong fundamentals. I can't say anything bad about the guy.

I wish I coulda been there so we could run some games. I really want to learn the Elena match, especially before EVO. I don't really know what to do against her or Rolento yet and now that people are seeing that they're viable, I'm afraid of getting scrubbed out at EVO by my own fault, instead of getting out played from a good player.
Click to expand...

I was really close in the LES match.. feel like I shouldn't have lost but oh well. Got him back in the team tournament.

HVE was talking to me about a 5v5 round robin (?) tournament happening in Hamilton. A&C vs Hamilton vs Waterloo. Newer guys tho. He said I should try start a team with my cousin but where da other sauga niggas at yo
 
V

vulva

Member
^^^^ get Teddy on your team. Flipmasta. He's ssauga. Rebelo too.


Btw, if it's just newer guys, Waterloo got that free. Gotta support my dudes.


Sayad said:
Western community manager lobbying for a Japanese only arcade game's netcode?!... I don't know, but I rather not argue about things we know nothing about.


What we know for confidence is that language didn't stop Namco from using GGPO with their small budget game, while with bigger projects, they preferred using their own code.

GGPO is very simple and easy to implement, it doesn't mix deep into your code that you'd have to dig through the code to tweak it. The thing you'd tinker with the most while implementing GGPO is how save states/roll backs work in your engine, and this is something that's going to be running on your own code, the same code everyone already working on the game understand. I really don't see this fantasy scenario being an issue, few notes from the guy familiar with GGPO and every one on the team should be ready to go, you wont be editing stuff in GGPO's code in order to implement it to your game.

It's cheap and its implementation is simple enough to make it the best choice for smaller devs, which is why it's picking up in that market. Yata had no other choice, it was either GGPO or no/bad netcode, their single programmer wont be writing a great netcode on his own. As your budget get bigger, you want to use your own codes as much as you can, it really is as simple as that.
Click to expand...

Regarding us knowing enough about them being willing to use it for a small budget title, we also have zero cases of them using it again for small budget titles. We obviously don't know the actual reasons why that is, but it stands to reason there's a reason they didn't return to it.


My "fantasy scenario" is a very real and probable one that a studio wouldn't want to risk dealing with. Even if the implementation is as easy as you claim (btw, have you implemented it in to anything? you seem very confident so I'm curious if you yourself had any issues, even minor, while doing so) any issues regarding customization or adjustments to suit their needs without an english liaison internally working on it or within proximity to make the most of the development time could be a deterrent. Again I'm not arguing about how easy it is to use GGPO and implement it, I'm explaining why language is a very large reason why a Japanese studio might not want to even bother with it.
 
O

OceanBlue

Member
xCobalt said:
So according to Momochi, his tutorials are meant for beginners.



Shit.
Click to expand...

"Oh yeah, if your offense isn't working, it's probably because other people are doing this and you aren't."

Lol I guess everyone knows to do this in Japan?! Is this something everyone who's good knows about and stream monsters like me are just clueless?
 
A

Anne

Member
OceanBlue said:
Lol Dieminion just linked this on his Twitter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1VeqwFEmsg

Crazy stuff. Reminds me of the Persona OS Anne was demonstrating a while back.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's fuzzy DP. Same shit, a large majority of OSes we use in Persona exist in tons of other games (and have been around way longer, we stole them).

Literally the exact same shit with Persona except meatie works better due to the SRK input. And in Japan this type of stuff tends to be more common knowledge. It certainly is in anime where you see low rank players implementing it.

Gentle Rodriguez said:
I heard the first episode was about option selects

Lol
Click to expand...

We're at the point where you can say OS knowledge and application is an entry level requirement for competitive play lol
 
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