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FINAL FANTASY Community Thread: XV Mainline Entries and Counting
- Thread starter Kagari
- Start date
Meccanical
Member
In no place is this sentence true, lol.
Not people whose favorite is like, XI, though. I mean they get the "waaa MMO" line, but nobody can really talk about XI's quality since like, 80% of the fanbase doesn't play the MMOs.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Never.
Well, no. Hm. I can respect it for being the first game with ATB. But that's about it. No, I guess I can praise some of the dungeons in terms of game design overall, but other than that... ha.
I went to Gold Saucer, played some mini-games and met some cat riding a moogle who sucks at telling my fortune but suddenly gives me an ominous warning. He's probably just doing a shitty job at reading my fortune again so I'll ignore it. He decides to join me and goes by the name Caith Sith. I get blamed for someone going crazy and killing people at the battle arena, got thrown into corel prison and met Barret's old buddy Dyne who happens to be Marlene's actual father. He's gone abosultuely batshit crazy however so I'm forced to fight him. He finally kills himself because of how crazy he is and Barret cry's manly tears.
I escaped, met Yuffie and recruited her, ran into some Turks and beat them and now I'm at Cosmo Canyon, Red XIII's home.
I escaped, met Yuffie and recruited her, ran into some Turks and beat them and now I'm at Cosmo Canyon, Red XIII's home.
Sure can!
tiggerkiddo
Member
Your kind is not welcome here...Schala
Other threads say me that your relationship with FFIV is better than what your words tell.
Never.
Well, no. Hm. I can respect it for being the first game with ATB. But that's about it. No, I guess I can praise some of the dungeons in terms of game design overall, but other than that... ha.
You left out the fact that Golbez' hand is a cooler villain than half the villains in the series. Just his one hand!
Caught that edit! But actually VIII used to be my favorite too but lately I have been remembering 9 more fondly.
It isn't difficult to be cooler than a monster that appears from nowhere, an evil emperor that appears from nowhere, a semi-naked woman that appears from nowhere, a witch that appears from nowhere, an evil entity or something like that that appears from nowhere or a freaking tick.
Meccanical
Member
Golbez wasn't even really a villain though...
Just like fucking always
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Excuse me while I try to find a way to burn Ultro's appendages off for good.
Oh, you mean that scene where Cecil managed to fuck that part up because he sucks at his job on a continuous basis?
Golbez was admittedly a better character than that entire cast put together until his character revelation.
You're right, I just hoped no one would notice. I needed another example and I didn't know how to describe Orphan.
Wait so when Squall tells Edea about SeeD at the end of the game doesn't that essentially mean the whole game already happened before it began? It's really confusing.
Meccanical
Member
It's because there is a time loop and in order for it to continue, Squall has to spread the idea of SeeD to Edea so her and Cid can start Gardens, SeeD, etc. Now the question is, who started the time loop? We know Cid plays a huge role in keeping it going which is why he pushes Squall into the leader role almost immediately but the original timeline we don't know how the time loop came to be.
Ah that's right, it's amazing how deep the story is when you think about it for a while.
He kind of was, though. They explain this in the DS version.
Oh, you mean that scene where Cecil managed to fuck that part up because he sucks at his job on a continuous basis?
Golbez was admittedly a better character than that entire cast put together until his character revelation.
I have to disagree, on the grounds of the DS version. After revealing that Golbez is Cecil's brother, Cecil does stop and say "You mean that that could just have easily been me?" FuSoYa has, after all, just pointed out that Zemus manipulated Golbez more easily because of his Lunarian blood. Golbez rejects this, though, and says "No, there was evil in me before that." We then see Golbez' backstory, where he reveals that at a young age, Golbez witnesses the murder of his father by people he'd only sought to help, and then his mother dies in child birth. At which point Golbez blames Cecil for killing her, and Zemus makes his move.
Golbez' point is that if he had never thought such evil things, and had not harbored such hatred in his heart for the people of the world, Zemus (who becomes the embodiment of hatred) could not have used him, or rather, because he had done these things, he was already more suited for service to Zemus than Cecil.
And indeed, we see over the course of the two games, 4 and TAY, that there is a stark contrast between Cecil, Kain, and Golbez. Cecil, once he finishes his whole atoning for his own sins, spends the rest of the series forgiving others. Kain betrays him like, four times, and he forgives him every single time. One of the climactic moments (and the only way to get the best ending to TAY) involves the question of Cecil forgiving Golbez. Golbez and Kain, meanwhile, have spent 17 years incapable of even forgiving themselves and conquering their own darkness, let alone forgiving others. We see all three of these men fight their own dark selves (Cecil on Mt. Ordeals, Kain in Baron Castle, and Golbez' dreams on the way from the Moon to the Blue Planet), but none of them go about it exactly the same way.
Obviously the Super Nintendo version is not an award winning, well written story, but the DS version, in spite of its goofy fantasy speech patterns, does do quite a bit to develop Cecil and particularly Golbez. After the conclusion of that crazy revelation in the Giant of Babil, one of Cecil's thought-bubbles focuses on the fact that he still thinks he could have turned out like Golbez. It's by no means the best told story in the series, but it has improved since it was first told, and it is better than some recently told tales by more than a country mile.
tiggerkiddo
Member
*applauds*
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
My apologies. I was watching a VGCW thing with someone so this reply was delayed.
Corvo, you remember my quote was for the SNES version, right? From the playthrough thread, right? That was the context it was in.
Corvo, you know that I will never come to agree with you as I will always think that both Final Fantasy II and Phantasy Star II crafted more compelling and less nonsensical plots than Final Fantasy IV, and those came out prior to Final Fantasy IV. Not to mention that I don't wish to strangle any of the characters in those games, really. However...
The point of what I'd posted before in my playthrough that I had quoted was that this shit was never ever brought up by any mean prior to this point in time. If you wanted to craft a genuine narrative with respect to making the player understand and perfectly comprehend the underlying message of "nature vs. nurture", try to create allusions to this ahead of time. Final Fantasy IV tends to transform a character after one singular plot point, and then they end up acting like a changed person thereafter, without having concrete and staggered character development. That was my point about Cecil.
Obviously the DS version takes some of the stuff cut from the original SNES version's script but even then, it's just like, "Why would you throw this stuff on the player at the last possible minute without any sense of foreshadowing outside of that one instance where Golbez refuses to kill Cecil because he "remembers" something about him?" From a narrative building standpoint, and from a narrative design standpoint, it's just weird that they saved that exposition dump to the end. And it's really weird that they ended up trying to teach the player the light/dark lesson right then and there, and simply crafts a narrative without a lot of character exposition in order to support this final revelation which should have taken some of the allusions that the game was trying to make, but instead threw it on the player as an exposition dump as opposed to wrapping it up nicely and creating a dramatic and thematic point.
That was my point. My point was that Final Fantasy IV, from a narrative design/impact standpoint, is simply flawed. Character interaction and character evolution is sub-par at best. Granted, it's better character development and interaction than Final Fantasy XIII's, but that's not exactly a high bar either. Kain and Golbez were merely the only decently-developed characters in Final Fantasy IV. Everyone else's development fell to the wayside.
Like I said:
I wasn't talking about the shitty romhack TAY, and how the plot ended up repeating itself over and over again with Kain being the only decent character in that game with Golbez picking up the slack. I was talking about Final Fantasy IV as it was in that playthrough.
We are simply not going to agree on this at all.
...I'll happily admit that I loved Final Fantasy IV when I was little. It was one of my favourite games back then. But now I can't stand it. I can't stand how it's designed from a narrative standpoint. It's got some good dungeon design, and I pointed that out in my playthrough, but everything from the general ease of the game (which Augments and a tinkered difficulty in the DS version helped to alleviate) to the stupid narrative, to most of the characterization... nah, I don't like it.
Corvo, you remember my quote was for the SNES version, right? From the playthrough thread, right? That was the context it was in.
Corvo, you know that I will never come to agree with you as I will always think that both Final Fantasy II and Phantasy Star II crafted more compelling and less nonsensical plots than Final Fantasy IV, and those came out prior to Final Fantasy IV. Not to mention that I don't wish to strangle any of the characters in those games, really. However...
The point of what I'd posted before in my playthrough that I had quoted was that this shit was never ever brought up by any mean prior to this point in time. If you wanted to craft a genuine narrative with respect to making the player understand and perfectly comprehend the underlying message of "nature vs. nurture", try to create allusions to this ahead of time. Final Fantasy IV tends to transform a character after one singular plot point, and then they end up acting like a changed person thereafter, without having concrete and staggered character development. That was my point about Cecil.
Obviously the DS version takes some of the stuff cut from the original SNES version's script but even then, it's just like, "Why would you throw this stuff on the player at the last possible minute without any sense of foreshadowing outside of that one instance where Golbez refuses to kill Cecil because he "remembers" something about him?" From a narrative building standpoint, and from a narrative design standpoint, it's just weird that they saved that exposition dump to the end. And it's really weird that they ended up trying to teach the player the light/dark lesson right then and there, and simply crafts a narrative without a lot of character exposition in order to support this final revelation which should have taken some of the allusions that the game was trying to make, but instead threw it on the player as an exposition dump as opposed to wrapping it up nicely and creating a dramatic and thematic point.
That was my point. My point was that Final Fantasy IV, from a narrative design/impact standpoint, is simply flawed. Character interaction and character evolution is sub-par at best. Granted, it's better character development and interaction than Final Fantasy XIII's, but that's not exactly a high bar either. Kain and Golbez were merely the only decently-developed characters in Final Fantasy IV. Everyone else's development fell to the wayside.
Like I said:
I wasn't talking about the shitty romhack TAY, and how the plot ended up repeating itself over and over again with Kain being the only decent character in that game with Golbez picking up the slack. I was talking about Final Fantasy IV as it was in that playthrough.
We are simply not going to agree on this at all.
...I'll happily admit that I loved Final Fantasy IV when I was little. It was one of my favourite games back then. But now I can't stand it. I can't stand how it's designed from a narrative standpoint. It's got some good dungeon design, and I pointed that out in my playthrough, but everything from the general ease of the game (which Augments and a tinkered difficulty in the DS version helped to alleviate) to the stupid narrative, to most of the characterization... nah, I don't like it.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Pretty much.
Like, I understand why Beef hates FF6, for example. And I would ask for people to understand why I think Terra's backstory and growth over FF6 is lacking (well, it's not just her, but a number of other characters in the game as well... but that's something that happens considering the cast is incredibly large). To be honest, I don't think FF6 is all that, either, in terms of an overall cohesive product since it has its share of issues too.
No FF is perfect, really.
The only FF that I feel epitomizes the entire series is FF9, but others may not feel that way. And my preferences (II, III FC, V, IX, X-2) are certainly out-of-bounds with what other people prefer in the series.
tiggerkiddo
Member
The only sane FF fans reside in this thread...=p
tiggerkiddo
Member
If you're hardcore enough and max out EVERY spell, Ultima does great damage...shame no one tells you about it though...
I wonder how many times can you beat FFII in the time it takes you to max out every spell.
I know that, but if we can both be civil about it, we can present our views for others who are not persuaded in either direction to make decisions based upon. Sometimes the point of the debate isn't to persuade the opposite debatee, but the audience, so to speak.
I'll agree that the plot has some very hurried developments, but I would think that if anyone in the cast is handled well, it is still Cecil. Cecil's development works. It can be cheesy, on that I see no reason to argue, but I don't think that really negates that his character develops as it ought to. Cecil starts out a good guy who does bad things, and after the events in Mist he's had enough. The events in Damcyan and Fabul only serve to soften him up more, show him how wrong he's been this whole time. Then he comes to Mysidia, where he committed his greatest atrocities, and the entire town hates him. Maybe my memory is foggy, but this is the first time in the series your PC is out and out hated by people who aren't the villains. So Cecil gets as abused as you let him be in Mysidia, and then he comes to the Elder, climbs the mountain and has the not so symbolic showdown with his evil side.
From then out, Cecil's character goes from the guy who's atoning to the guy who's forgiving, and if they'd drug that out, it would've been beating a dead horse. Nevertheless, I think the progression from Mysidia to Mysidia for Cecil is one that is done well.
The themes of Nature and Nurture, I grant you, do pop up right at the end, but then again, the broader theme of evil in the heart of man is there the entire game. We see it with Cecil and with Kain. We see it in Tellah and Edward's interactions. We see it again when Cecil returns to Mysidia to find Yang in the hands of Baron. The idea that anyone, regardless of the side they're on, can be good or evil, is touched upon, however weakly, at various points in the game.
I agree in part. The character interaction and evolution is flawed, but I don't agree that these flaws are somehow worse than Final Fantasy II, where the main three characters rarely interact with one another at all, and where one really cannot make much of Firion's character development at all. It seems unfair to ride FFIV for these things and say FFII is better than it, when FFII does not pass FFIV in any of these areas at all.
That said, while I suppose that Rydia, Edge, Cid, Yang, Rosa, Fusoya, Tellah, Palom, Porom and Edward are not as well developed as Cecil, Golbez and Kain, I would argue that the only ones who lack a distinct personality are Rosa and Fusoya, the others at least having memorable personalities which made for enjoyable moments on the roadside. Something I again don't think that FFII really had.
I know, and I warrant that bringing TAY into talk about IV is perhaps unfair, especially since, as you've pointed out, that game spends far too much time rehashing things (how many times can you fight the goddamn octomammoth in one game!?) but I did qualify my previous post with the fact that my disagreement was rooted in the fact that the DS version does make earnest efforts in alleviating many complaints lodged against the original. My point was that the DS version does that, eases the problems of the narrative of a game just barely out of the NES era.
I would not say that IV is the pinnacle of story telling in this series, nor character development. I would not even say it plays best mechanically, but I do not think it fits the bill of a game which is "mediocre" "subpar" or in any way "bad". FFIV is a classic. And like all classics it shows signs of its age, of the era in which it was forged, but it is a memorable, enjoyable experience in spite of these things.
Yeah but the people freaking out about the modern games aren't in here. Unless we're talking about me dogging on X's VA, because lemme tell you, that stuff is hilarious no matter what you guys say.
I like IX's story, but that horribly slow battle system has pulled the game off the pedestal in my eyes.
Either way, Jax is right. I just enjoy waxin' the philosophic 'bout IV erry now and then, and I hope nobody here is upset.
Final Fantasy threads tend to be a mixture of opinion and MAKING STUFF UP.
The best part is that a lot of arguments are:
1: The new FF games do X and X is really stupid and I hate anything that does X!!!
2: The older FFs had X too.
1: Yeah well when they did X, it's cool. Shut up.
I think we all know it wasn't cool when FFV did jiggle physics.
Only because of hardware limitations.
Man nobody wants to see a picture of Krile. What is wrong with you?
EDIT: Jaxword, Dark Schala, come back I love you guys.
Professor Beef
Banned
All this FF4 talk makes me want to vomit in rage.
We could just hug it out instead? That always works in ABC family original movies.
Meccanical
Member
All the while Jesse Fredrick sings a song about family and love and blah blah blah
tiggerkiddo
Member
The next IV remake should let me pilot an airship and take on the Giant of Babel from the air.
Meccanical
Member
The next FF anything needs to let you do more of anything with the airship.
But it's the ULTIMATE MAGIC!
But yeah, it was a wild goose chase more or less.
Not to mentioned what happened when the party was dicking around in the tower looking for it.
Airship becomes a party member.
I don't care how insane or non-nonsensical it sounds. Make it happen!
Airship battles would be cool too. Or do some silly BS like Xenogears and give everybody one. (Except it's not a mech.)
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Now look what you people did.
Poor Beef.
Only because you like Zero 3.
Man, I don't have time to craft a long rebuttal right now, lol. So forgive me for not being lengthy. I'm watching a Rockman no Constancy playthrough right now.
Well, the main point I wanted to subtly make in my playthrough, and why I called it "Batman's Dying Dream" was because the game was basically Cecil's story. Of course he's going to get the bulk of character development, because the game is about him. Golbez and Kain get additional development because Golbez is Cecil's brother, and Kain is kinda like Cecil's foil. The other characters merely felt like props or, as I've said before, just there to supply lines of dialogue (like Rosa was doing for the majority of the game).
That point, to which you're referring: the Mysidia bit, I liked that part of the narrative, and I wish it'd gotten expanded on. Cecil should've had to work hard for his redemption and forgiveness as opposed to merely getting different character data, especially for what he did. I know he had that internal struggle, himself, but for perhaps a little more melodrama, it probably should've taken a little longer for him to be forgiven considering the pillaging and whatnot.
Well, I'd said that the theme of Final Fantasy IV seemed to have been emotions. We saw that it happened with Edge and Rubicante (rage), with Tellah and Edward (revenge), with Tellah and Golbez (revenge-- and then an extra lesson to the player that vengeance isn't something that solves everything), Rydia and Titan (with her summoning Titan out of vengeance and despair), Rosa and her seemingly unwavering love for Cecil, etc. Now those dramatic points were rather nicely done because of FF4's stronger focus on cinematic flow and dramatic writing.
The points with respect to evil in the heart of man is indeed explored in certain segments of the game. Though I wish it had more depth. It's simply unfortunate that it wasn't explored with some of the other characters to give them more characterization (especially with the ladies in the party, which is disappointing to a degree for me).
That's true. The characterization is better than FFII's. But at the same time, much of the characterization and storytelling in FFII is more based on the macro and politics in that world as opposed to personal narrative. What I enjoyed was the orphans' tale of taking part in a war and being basically the guys who fought the big mean Emperor, while trying to fend off
Essentially what I'm trying to say is touché.
But you also have to remember that I really disliked how they handled Rydia in that game, too. SORASing for the sake of SORASing.
Duly noted. And yes, in general, the DS version--outside of aesthetics--is a better game than OG FF4, but to me, despite adding some background to Golbez's story to the revelation scene, I don't feel like the DS version solves everything that the original FF4 narrative had, for the reasons I've stated above. It simply has to do with pacing and narrative design, and you can't exactly fix a blueprint; you can only add small touches here and there to make certain aspects of it better (and since FF4 concentrated on Kain, Golbez, and Cecil, those are the aspects that were strengthened to an extent).
I can actually say the same thing for FFII and FFIII FC, actually. FFIV, by its game design and narrative design, is just something that I don't really enjoy seeing that often. It lacks giving the player agency with respect to character customization, and some branching at certain points. In that respect, it's mediocre/sub-par to me. It certainly may be a classic to you, but it kind of isn't for me. And I can respect that.
I mean, people tell me it's friggin' weird that I know a lot about FF4 including various glitches, various bugs, how to break the game, etc. even though I don't like it. So I did like it at some point to figure this stuff out, but as I got older, I just couldn't really stand it.
Lord knows that I get some grief from a friend of mine who loves FF4. lol.
I should really go dig up those old BBS things about how Final Fantasy VII killed the series, blah blah blah...
DO IT.
I'm very interested.
I posted a bunch earlier in this thread.
I think making a thread solely about failed Final Fantasy predictions and 20 years of wailing and whining about how it's died (repeatedly) would be great.
If it makes one person rethink posting in every FF thread ever that the current ones are the worst FF ever and has been the worst since 6/7/8/9/10, then it's a good thing.
That boss fight was super awesome, man. The only way it could've been cooler was if you had had your own giant robot. The Babil fight from CC is way better than the one from the DS.
Schala I'm not gonna type out a huge response 'cuz I don't wanna fill up the whole page with massive talk any more than I have done. I think, though, that what you've said is fair and understandable, even if I still love the product. I'm super willing to admit that IV isn't the best, which is why when people get to list making, I always have to ask if they want me to make mine in terms of quality or my own favorites. IV is one of my favorites, but I can't well say that it is a perfect game, since it is, ultimately, a SNES game just barely out of the NES era.
My concluding point is this: Mega Man Zero 3: Best Zero game, or best Mega Man game post the original series?
None! I'm mostly talking X - X4 here. Even X8 has a lot of dubious quality to it that drags it down hard.
...To actually be on topic, I think FF4 is great on a first playthrough, but starts showing it's faults on repeat runs. I'd definitely replay 4 five times over before replaying (and actually finishing) 2 though!
I played the PSP version of 4 right after playing the DS, and the PSP version of TAY right after the Wii. I am most def burned out on playing the game for awhile.
I'd still put Z3 above X2, though. X2 is my unfavorite of the early X games. Wonky armor, weird bosses, those damn X Hunters.
That's fair! Your claim was that it was better than the rest of the series post-classic though, not better than specific titles. :v
I'm still hankering to play TAY on PSP, at least. Does that version require you to get all the challenge dungeon loot to stand a chance in the final tale like the Wii version did?
I think Zero 3 is better than any X title that isn't 1, 3, or 4, which is the vast majority. And I'd mount an argument that the story at least is better than in 4.
I think the game compromises and makes it significantly easier to get the Challenge Dungeon gear. You're still screwed unless you cheat when it comes to the Summons/Tails, though.
PSP version is definitely the prettiest version of FF4/TAY. But the DS version has awesome stuff like Golbez making Rosa disappear with his cape that got cut from the PSP.
The worst part though is that no subsequent versions of FF4 include: Golbez' One Hand to Rule them All or Rosa and Cecil making out in front of Kain in the Tower of Zot.