That's a Shadow the Hedghehog spoiler/retcon, so we're both right!
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FINAL FANTASY Community Thread: XV Mainline Entries and Counting
- Thread starter Kagari
- Start date
That's a Shadow the Hedghehog spoiler/retcon, so we're both right!
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
Well, it depends on if you can accept the explanation behind Lightning's changed personality as to whether or not you believe she is basically a different character.
Lightning is essentially the only character who recognizes the fact that the group fucked the hell up at the end of XIII. Snow, Serah, Hope... all of them feel they are heroes. Lighting, on the other hand, was shown by Etro all the millions upon millions of people she killed due to fucking up with Orphan. That's what she is referring to in her monologues about her "redemption" and about why she can't face Serah until she "makes things right". Of course, this was novella only material, so it's understandable that you wouldn't know. Then there's of course the fact of infinite 900 year loops of endless wars and stuff.
Again, it's a lot to swallow, especially since it's all off screen.
The lore... yeah, they pulled it out of their ass at the last second to prolong the story.
Riddle me this, though:
How is it Lightning's fault? Barthandelus was going to drop the world anyway, so people would've died, and in fact, MORE people would have died, so no deaths are her fault for that. Lindzei abandoned humanity. Nobody can really speak to Lindzei's character, but his/her plans always come off as pretty dickish in the FNC. Regardless, she abandoned them, and with no God really looking out for them, the final confrontation was sort of a foregone conclusion. Pulse seems to have branded them Himself, but he wasn't super helpful either, and you're free to guess whether he intended for them to kill Barthandelus or just summon Ragnarok or who knows what, because Pulse is just about the most cryptic God in the series that way.
So none of that is Lightning and company's fault. Then there's Etro. Could she REALLY not have saved the day without fucking time up? Especially since she'd already done it once to save Fang and Vanille? So whatever had happened to piss of Caius was between him and Etro. Lightning and company were just out to save lives that the utterly unconcerned Gods had left in danger. Casting their actions as villainous or wrong contradicts the entire point of XIII.
So none of that is Lightning and company's fault. Then there's Etro. Could she REALLY not have saved the day without fucking time up? Especially since she'd already done it once to save Fang and Vanille? So whatever had happened to piss of Caius was between him and Etro. Lightning and company were just out to save lives that the utterly unconcerned Gods had left in danger. Casting their actions as villainous or wrong contradicts the entire point of XIII.
Now let's move past that to the next problem, shall we?
What kind of Goddess chooses a woman who just spent her time turning on her Gods and killing them all the minute she realized they were chumps? How does Lightning wind up SIDING with Etro when everything that happened was in fact ETRO'S fault, and not hers? Especially when she's just gotten done telling one would-be-God what a loser they were for doing selfish things that cost lives? Wouldn't hearing "oh I fucked time for y'all here let me show you and blame you" have pissed Lightning off, so soon after she had JUST been pissed off by a similar ploy by a similar entity?
Etro and Lightning's partnership defies both their characters. Etro granting Lightning powers does, too, since Etro isn't supposed to have any powers of her own. So yeah, how does Etro fuck time and Yuel when the mythology states that Etro has no powers of her own? Considering the sheer amount of magic bullshit Etro has done since XIII-2, I dare say Bhunivelze is less villainous than he's been cast for locking her up. I wouldn't let a wildcard who could fuck over time itself on a whim run loose.
Etro and Lightning's partnership defies both their characters. Etro granting Lightning powers does, too, since Etro isn't supposed to have any powers of her own. So yeah, how does Etro fuck time and Yuel when the mythology states that Etro has no powers of her own? Considering the sheer amount of magic bullshit Etro has done since XIII-2, I dare say Bhunivelze is less villainous than he's been cast for locking her up. I wouldn't let a wildcard who could fuck over time itself on a whim run loose.
At which point you realize nothing makes any fucking sense and trying to piece it together is bullshit and you start to feel angry and frustrated that there are others who still do.
Why would Caius, a Pulse L'Cie, have a Focus of protecting Yeul, a Seeress for Etro, when Pulse's stated goal in the FNC is to open Etro's Gate and kill her? How does Etro have Seeresses when she, again, has no powers? Why would Pulse, Etro's natural enemy and also incapable of any contact with her at all since she is in the Unseen Realm beyond Etro's Gate and his reach, create a PULSE FAL'CIE, a sworn servant of his, to reside in the city of Seeresses, Paddra, and broadcast their visions? How would he even DO that?
Why would Etro put her heart into the body of Pulse L'Cie, one of her sworn enemies? Why would Etro HELP Pulse L'Cie during XIII, given what was going to happen? How could Etro put her heart into someone else when she has no powers? Since Caius kills himself at the end of the game (and no, Noel did NOT kill him, I cannot comprehend why anyone would think that since no matter whether you choose "kill" or "don't kill" the exact same scene plays and just UGH if you even bother to say otherwise here, I mean REALLY), why didn't he do it at any point in the game? Why didn't Caius just STOP Lightning and company when they were on Pulse so Etro would never twist time, given that he knew what would happen?
How does Hope build a Fal'Cie? I mean, those were built by Lindzei, who was a GOD. Since when is Hope smarter than Jesus? At the same time, why would you use the MEMORY of an omnicidal maniac who ordered your mother killed as the main brain of the computer? Why would Hope waste 400 years in a time capsule rather than spending those 400 years ensuring that his plan would work? 400 years is plenty of time for a plan to go completely and entirely awry.
How the fuck does Cocoon even fucking fall? I mean what the fucking fuck? You spent ALL of that game working to prevent it. Don't tell me erosion, 'cuz 1) Sucker had been in the air for 13,000 years already, 2)the things eroding it had all been killed, 3)Crystal don't erode in the space of 500 years. If it was Hope digging pieces out of it, what the fuck? You had 500 years to manufacture your own world, you did not need to spend that time tearing apart the inside of Cocoon. Moreover, if people were really still living inside it, it must have still been functioning in some ways, considering the ones up top didn't all fall down into the middle and then the bottom, and the seas did not all collect there, not if so much of the place was still intact.
Why would Etro put her heart into the body of Pulse L'Cie, one of her sworn enemies? Why would Etro HELP Pulse L'Cie during XIII, given what was going to happen? How could Etro put her heart into someone else when she has no powers? Since Caius kills himself at the end of the game (and no, Noel did NOT kill him, I cannot comprehend why anyone would think that since no matter whether you choose "kill" or "don't kill" the exact same scene plays and just UGH if you even bother to say otherwise here, I mean REALLY), why didn't he do it at any point in the game? Why didn't Caius just STOP Lightning and company when they were on Pulse so Etro would never twist time, given that he knew what would happen?
How does Hope build a Fal'Cie? I mean, those were built by Lindzei, who was a GOD. Since when is Hope smarter than Jesus? At the same time, why would you use the MEMORY of an omnicidal maniac who ordered your mother killed as the main brain of the computer? Why would Hope waste 400 years in a time capsule rather than spending those 400 years ensuring that his plan would work? 400 years is plenty of time for a plan to go completely and entirely awry.
How the fuck does Cocoon even fucking fall? I mean what the fucking fuck? You spent ALL of that game working to prevent it. Don't tell me erosion, 'cuz 1) Sucker had been in the air for 13,000 years already, 2)the things eroding it had all been killed, 3)Crystal don't erode in the space of 500 years. If it was Hope digging pieces out of it, what the fuck? You had 500 years to manufacture your own world, you did not need to spend that time tearing apart the inside of Cocoon. Moreover, if people were really still living inside it, it must have still been functioning in some ways, considering the ones up top didn't all fall down into the middle and then the bottom, and the seas did not all collect there, not if so much of the place was still intact.
Nothing about anything about anything is good, or logical, or coherent. And I haven't even started on the time travel bullshit.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
I loathe things like that. I knew of the Serah bullshit for XIII-2, but it would of been nice to play as Light between the chapters and travel Valhalla.
Apparently we get to do that in LR.
XIII like every other main FF didn't need a sequel, but XIII-2 did.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
Etro seems to follow the tradition of FF Goddesses(Minerva,Cosmos) of being just awful.
According to the wiki only power to create was taken away from Etro. In Final Fantasy XIII-2 Fragments After, desiring Bhunivelze's attention, Etro tore up her body and disappeared from the world, entering Valhalla. Lindzei used her spilled blood to create the first human: a girl named Yeul, who was made in Etro's likeness, and by extension, Mwynn. And the only thing given to Etro(by Mwynn) was the task of protecting the world balance. Which she fucked up by calling Light to protect her and making an enemy of Caius.
I really wouldn't be surprised if LR ends with
According to the wiki only power to create was taken away from Etro. In Final Fantasy XIII-2 Fragments After, desiring Bhunivelze's attention, Etro tore up her body and disappeared from the world, entering Valhalla. Lindzei used her spilled blood to create the first human: a girl named Yeul, who was made in Etro's likeness, and by extension, Mwynn. And the only thing given to Etro(by Mwynn) was the task of protecting the world balance. Which she fucked up by calling Light to protect her and making an enemy of Caius.
I really wouldn't be surprised if LR ends with
the creation of a new world, but someone (possibly Light) must continue the balance Etro was tasked to do.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
See, my problem with that explanation is that:
Barty boy was dead, Orphan couldn't do jack shit and the Calvary was already dead. Cocoon Fal'cie can't give a focus that directly harms Cocoon (though Barty boy seems to essentially skirt that idea on a regular basis since every single one of his actions are to lead Cocoon to destruction, go figure). None of the Pulse Fal'cie outside of Anima seemed to give a shit about the convoluted plan. So really, the Fal'cie's convoluted plan failed spectacularly the second Barty and Anima died since they were the masterminds behind the plan (unless you ascribe to the insane "Anima wanted to save Cocoon" theory that some people hold, which is why their vision was of Ragnorok saving Cocoon. Only, as you say later, that contradicts everything we know about a Pulse Fal'cie to do so) and none of the other Fal'cie seemed to give a hoot and were just taking orders. All they had to do was leave with their brands scorched at that point and they'd have not only saved the world, but avoided killing 1/3 of the population and would have lived life as super humans. But no, instead, the party literally states "we believe in miracles, have at thee" and kills Orphan.
Now, maybe there's a bit of information I'm forgetting about since it's been a year and a half since I honestly gave the ending a close look at, but I saw absolutely no reason to kill Orphan. Orphan doesn't die, Cocoon doesn't fall from the sky. Cocoon doesn't fall from the sky, 1/3 of the population doesn't die. Now, maybe the other Fal'cie would have had an issue, but they still could have evacuated and then evaluated the situation under more stable circumstances. Or hell, they could have waited for everyone to evacuate and then killed Orphan. Again, I could very well be mistaken in this interpretation and would welcome a different perspective.
I guess my main problem is that the ending was so loose and poorly explained that I'm left with all of these alternate possibilities of what the party could have done. Maybe they had no other choice between the mumbo jumbo deus ex machinas that were happening... but they sure as hell didn't seem to take a second to consider anything else.
Now, maybe there's a bit of information I'm forgetting about since it's been a year and a half since I honestly gave the ending a close look at, but I saw absolutely no reason to kill Orphan. Orphan doesn't die, Cocoon doesn't fall from the sky. Cocoon doesn't fall from the sky, 1/3 of the population doesn't die. Now, maybe the other Fal'cie would have had an issue, but they still could have evacuated and then evaluated the situation under more stable circumstances. Or hell, they could have waited for everyone to evacuate and then killed Orphan. Again, I could very well be mistaken in this interpretation and would welcome a different perspective.
I guess my main problem is that the ending was so loose and poorly explained that I'm left with all of these alternate possibilities of what the party could have done. Maybe they had no other choice between the mumbo jumbo deus ex machinas that were happening... but they sure as hell didn't seem to take a second to consider anything else.
Now, the funny thing is, that's not even what Etro was referring to. That's my problem with the ending, a problem I tend to set aside most of the time since that's obviously not how the narrative sees it and to constantly bring it up when talking about the story serves to add nothing to the conversation in the long run. I tend to just accept your version of "they had no other choice" since it's just easier that way and that's honestly what the narrative wants you to go with. No, Etro's problem is
she sees all her "children" as equally precious, so to kill for any reason is to commit the worst sin imaginable. It doesn't matter that the Fal'cie ordered mass genocide and that people just went along with it. All that matters was that Lightning killed. Doesn't matter that it was in self-defense. Doesn't matter that it was for "the greater good". Doesn't matter that it was to stop a genocidal government. Etro sees everything in black and white.
And Lightning fucking agrees with that. She agrees with it despite knowing that Etro has caused some of the worst suffering imaginable on a regular basis and, like the narrative, writes it off as "She doesn't understand emotions since she doesn't have them... so that somehow justifies all the pain, suffering, and death she has caused". Only, she fucking does feel emotion. She "loves" Yeul, so she screws her over with eternal rebirth. She "loves" her children, hence why she constantly sacrifices for them. She feels pity, isolation, loves, regret, and a crap ton of other things. So really, the Novella's are unsure on that subject.
And Lightning fucking agrees with that. She agrees with it despite knowing that Etro has caused some of the worst suffering imaginable on a regular basis and, like the narrative, writes it off as "She doesn't understand emotions since she doesn't have them... so that somehow justifies all the pain, suffering, and death she has caused". Only, she fucking does feel emotion. She "loves" Yeul, so she screws her over with eternal rebirth. She "loves" her children, hence why she constantly sacrifices for them. She feels pity, isolation, loves, regret, and a crap ton of other things. So really, the Novella's are unsure on that subject.
Anyway, this is why I said "if you can swallow it" because I sure as fuck didn't when I read it.
My interpretation of Lightning's character is that, while she is deeply caring about those she loves and cares about, she's also very much a "dog eat dog" character. She's constantly making statements like "couldn't shoot, got himself shot instead" (in reference to slaughtering someone) and has no qualms with killing as many people as she needs to to achieve her goals (even if they are "brainwashed" by hundreds of years of propaganda). She rationalizes her actions. She compartmentalizes her killings. I have a hard time accepting that a person like this would just go "oh, this goddess who fucks everything up is telling me I'm wrong, so boo hoo I'm the worst person ever." Seriously, she goes into dramatic overtures about how much of a sinner she is.
Then again, when you are forcibly merged with a deity, forced to hear the dying pleas of everyone you have killed, forced to watch the destruction of the universe, and get blamed for all of it, even shit you didn't do... that would probably change anyone.
The only explanation that I can accept from this entire debacle is that Lightning chose to fight for Etro because she saw what would have happened if she didn't. Etro showed her the end of the universe, letting Lightning know that if she didn't take up arms against Caius, not only would her friends and family die, all of humanity would as well. That's the only thing in line with Lightning's characterization. So no matter how you look at it, Etro gets off scot free and Lightning takes all the blame for everything. Fucking-A, what a load of horse-shit.
Then again, when you are forcibly merged with a deity, forced to hear the dying pleas of everyone you have killed, forced to watch the destruction of the universe, and get blamed for all of it, even shit you didn't do... that would probably change anyone.
The only explanation that I can accept from this entire debacle is that Lightning chose to fight for Etro because she saw what would have happened if she didn't. Etro showed her the end of the universe, letting Lightning know that if she didn't take up arms against Caius, not only would her friends and family die, all of humanity would as well. That's the only thing in line with Lightning's characterization. So no matter how you look at it, Etro gets off scot free and Lightning takes all the blame for everything. Fucking-A, what a load of horse-shit.
I never said any of it was good. I only said there was an official explanation that was out there. Whether or not it isn't so face-palm worthy that your palm rockets through the back of your skull is up to you.
As per the other stuff... you'll get no argument from me.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
Yeah that is messed up and manipulative on Etro's part. No wonder Light tears up, again, when that happens as she is given her armor.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Etro is simply a shitty deity. Or an attention seeker.
I'm pretty sure "just leaving" wasn't an option, either. That's why Barthandelus and Orphan were insisting that the population tear itself apart? They'd released like, hordes of monsters and all of that noise, and were turning people into Cie'th en masse. I could've sworn that Orphan, especially merged with Barthandelus was still a threat.
FFXIII spoilers
Meccanical
Member
.
.Doned was a huge douchebag anyway. If I were Marche I'd do that, too.
Also for no particular reason I wish to remind everyone that Lightning's 2nd best appearance was in Dissidia, because pairing her with Firion was the most sympathetic her not Seven appearance was.
I can't recall right now why Don was a douche, educate me. Cor, plz.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
.
Would you really trap your brother in a hellish kingdom of madness and violence, forbidding him from ever seeing his mother or father again, and then gather a gang of crooks to beat the shit out of him just because the dream world had deceived you into thinking your legs worked?
People always claim Marche is the jerk, but that's not so. Doned, Ritz and Mewt were all profiting by holding Marche prisoner in another world against his will. Marche's quest to go home is then one part The Odyssey and one part The Count of Monte Cristo.
Those jerks got what they had coming to them.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Long story short. Everyone is an asshole.
Except for Cid. He's just a loser.
Meccanical
Member
Only if you play it while gazing at the glorious visage of our Lady and Saviour Lightning-sama.
I'm still trying to figure out how you managed to play a screen saver.
#Idon'tknowwhatI'mdoing
I finally decided to give Final Fantasy Dimensions a try after remembering that there was a tablet around and the game isn't really bad so far (start of the second chapter) but I don't really like this game's job system, and it's sad because I'm a great fan of this type of growth system.
The Job Level limit is a stab in the back against the supposed freedom I have at giving jobs to my characters forcing me to switch jobs before I start getting desirable skills that I want to pass on. I want to keep Sol as a warrior but I have to change him into a crappy thief with a loooooooooong steal animation that only gets rubbish when I hit the jackpot because the chances of getting an item are the lowest since the adventures of Edge Igethitbyalltheenemieswhentryingtopilfer Geraldine.
Another issue I have is that X Magic skills don't give stat bonus and that means that I have to choose what characters will hoard all the physical jobs and which ones will hoard all the magic because it seems that having one character with mixed roles is a no-go.
The Job Level limit is a stab in the back against the supposed freedom I have at giving jobs to my characters forcing me to switch jobs before I start getting desirable skills that I want to pass on. I want to keep Sol as a warrior but I have to change him into a crappy thief with a loooooooooong steal animation that only gets rubbish when I hit the jackpot because the chances of getting an item are the lowest since the adventures of Edge Igethitbyalltheenemieswhentryingtopilfer Geraldine.
Another issue I have is that X Magic skills don't give stat bonus and that means that I have to choose what characters will hoard all the physical jobs and which ones will hoard all the magic because it seems that having one character with mixed roles is a no-go.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Corvo pls. Lord I've lost control of the funky evil tree shit spirits ExDeath is best.
I guess I just haven't paid enough attention to the job system to notice yet. I'll warn you that you only receive enough JP for each character to master 4 classes anyway. If you want more you have to beat the game's super boss repeatedly. So prioritizing jobs is the way to go anyway. I think I've done Sol as a Warrior and now Dragoon, for instance.
Golbez fuses with a giant dragon, pilots a giant robot, beats the entire team with just his hand and also has more muscles than JECHT. He's so muscular his suit of power armor bulges from his own muscles.
Anyone else think it is really sad that there was a thread about Tabata wanting Type-0 to get localized this week and this thread has just kinda been left flat? I'm not sure if it is Agito that's taken the wind from everyone's sails or what.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
GILGY has more arms. nuff said
Also Kefka is a looney tune.
----------------
I'm surprised many avoid talking bout Type 0.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
Too bad they never interacted in Dissidia. They are they only two of the FF Legion of Doom that don't take themselves so seriously for the most part.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Ganon Dragmire
Member
Haha yeah. I guess they would have that moment since they, as well as CoD, are the destroyers of the group.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Villains really needed a story mode in Dissidia outside of lolgokillferalchaos
Congrats Corvo, you have yet another platform to 100% the After Years on.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
*flails arms in the air*
All of my why
All of my why
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
You know exactly what I'm gonna say. Arrrrrgh.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
All I ever wanted down the road was a proper FF5 remake. And they give me FFIV DS version of After Years for iOS. Graaah! Kusoge!
I AM BATHING IN THIS SALT. YOUR SALTY TEARS ARE MY DELICIOUS BIDET. COME TO CORVO I WELCOME THEE.
Hail to the King:
Wait, no, I meant:
No, dammit
Good enough.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
I've "done my part" and bought many SE psp titles including FFIVCC . I guess that game isn't so "complete" huh? I'll play this if comes to a game portable at a decent price.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
People will buy it anyway.