• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

FINAL FANTASY Community Thread: XV Mainline Entries and Counting

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
I dunno. I've always considered community threads to be a little better if conversation flowed naturally as opposed to trying to force a topic. I mean, you can totally discuss the pros/cons of each game because we've done it a long time ago in this thread and the topic can certainly be brought up again. It's just a point to latch onto and I'm sure people are interested in it!

I just don't think I'd have the time to devote to writing a long post about it right now, but could pick up the slack later!

I have it on wait, I like the fast paced combat but I want to take my time to choose skills. What I can't stand are the dressphere change animations, I have them OFF and the mandatory first animations are getting on my nerves.
That's exactly why I turned them off. :p

I actually forgot "off" was a choice. I thought you could only shorten them. Happy to be wrong.
Off's even in the shorthand touch menu in the Vita version! It's great. Less fuss.

I didn't even know Wait was an option in X-2. Not that I'd ever do it, the whole point of that battle system was that it revolved around the Active part of ATB.
Well, the thing about X-2's battle system, especially, is that you can chain attacks, so that's why I think making it more active is more useful than keeping wait on.

With respect to other games in the series, I just prefer active because I'd rather get rid of things quickly and efficiently as opposed to taking my time trying to pick something. Again, I like to think on the spot, so trying to do it as quickly as I can is a bit of a game to me, too.
 

Levyne

Banned
For some reason I've come to dislike the word "flawed", as much as it is possible to dislike a word without context. I'm don't know if I should feel that way but I do. I'm not blaming or accusing people for using it, and I don't want to come across as pointing a finger to badcrumble just because he used it last. I just see it everywhere. It just seems like an easy addition to any post to provide justification for an opinion. That's worded weirdly, I don't know a great way to put it. It also, to me anyways, seems to come across as overly-objective...by that I mean it seems to have this effect of making an opinion come across as a fact, sometimes. "This aspect of the game is flawed."

I realize the game is flawed but I still feel [blank]. I enjoy [game x] even with its flaws because [blank].

I just find myself not enjoying reading lines like that. I'd rather people just detail and explain what they enjoy and don't enjoy about a title and give impressions in that manner. What one perceives as "flaws" becomes apparent without having to resort to labeling them as such.

But I don't want to get hung up on it because it is just a word.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Only during boss fights!

Which means you do use the "wait" command.

------------------

I reiterate my simple way of ranking the games in the series.

Game with GILGAMESH = Awesome

Games with no GILGAMESH = Suck

Never fails.

And by that virtue XIII-2 is garbage but the GILGAMESH XIII-2 DLC is superb. Just clearing that up.

I don't really hate any of the games. Except FF2. Screw that game. XIII games are obviously parody of the series.
 

Levyne

Banned
FF2 was the only one I started and just had no motivation whatsoever to play further than 3 hours in. I suppose that makes it my least favorite, though there are some titles I've not played.

Actually it's been a while since I've thought about Revenant Wings....
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
FF2 was the only one I started and just had no motivation whatsoever to play further than 3 hours in. I suppose that makes it my least favorite, though there are some titles I've not played.

My main issue with the game is the redundancy of the damn trap rooms(empty room leading nowhere) where it locks you into a random battle. Was annoying. And the leveling system was tedious if you wanted to buff up your people.
 
X-2 is so good. The goofiness of the characters and the story is such a good contrast to X, yet it still is very emotional seeing what the "saved" residents of Spira have done to such memorable locations where so many dramatic scenes and moments occurred. Especially the campfire right before Zanarkand, that was just brutal. Realizing that nobody except for Yuna is still thinking about or even really remembering Tidus is really rough.

I will say that while the opening song is a good way to get into the mood of the game it was an incredibly dumb decision by SE to include it. I think it scares off people from what is otherwise a completely worthwhile experience. At least it always allows for a good laugh anytime you see someone post about how X-2 "totally changed Yuna's personality" and you know they haven't even played it.

Only complaint is that ponytail thing on Yuna is incredibly stupid. Why she couldn't just have normal short hair is beyond me. And that in "The Eternal Calm" (which is also 2 years after FFX) she still has her X hair, same with Rikku. Good job SE.

Also Rikku is the best.
 

Levyne

Banned
The ponytail is kind of dumb. It looks like a leash or extension cord.

I'll write up more impressions once I've finished, but I wish the plot moved along to bigger things quicker than the end up chapter 2. You've got a faux-concert with "yuna", another "la la la" concert with Yuna on the airship to wind down, where the drama is that she is jealous of the enigmatic "Lenne". You've got the hot spring scene, many many run ins with the unimposing Leblanc Syndicate, a tease at marriage, a carnival of activities in pairing up monkeys, calibrating towers, Gunner's Gauntlet, giving away balloons, selling tickets... I'm just saying how someone could be less than enthralled at this point.

I have yet to remind myself what's in chapter three. We all know what's waiting in four.

Edit: I don't dwell on those things though because the primary gameplay is so good. I'm loving the psychic dresssphere.

Edit Edit: Forgot about the massage, haha.
 

Darkmakaimura

Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
Sometimes I really hate April Fool's Day jokes. I actually kind of got excited at first about a FFX sequel that would tie into FFVII. It sounded like it could've been real being that there is already a story tie between the two games.
 
I usually use "Wait" mode in FF games because I don't want to be rushed while in menus. FFX-2 is tricky because of the combos you can do with other characters, but I dunno. I think even when I played FFX-2 back when it released, I used Wait. When I replay it via the HD collection, I might try active and see how it goes. But it'll be a while before I play X-2 since I don't think playing X and X-2 back to back would be very wise. Yeah, they are very different games, but even still. Might hold off and beat another game first.
 

Levyne

Banned
Sometimes I really hate April Fool's Day jokes. I actually kind of got excited at first about a FFX sequel that would tie into FFVII. It sounded like it could've been real being that there is already a story tie between the two games.

I would take another game in Spira

or Ivalice.
 

Holykael1

Banned
I will let the part of the rankings go because it is a case of missunderstandings and it's getting nowhere but I would like to refute some of your points here.
I don't disagree with your first three paragraphs, they are valid complaints but they are not enough to make me dislike the game. Why? Because I value the actual contents of the narrative(which were merely good and sometimes even gripping(mythology)), characters(I really like the cast, all of them felt like human beings with believable motivations, actions and I felt like they had organic and natural developments) music/art direction(which was fantastic) and battle system(which I thought was great and really fun apart from some bad design choices like battle leader dies and you die, enemies had too much health nearing the end of the game and the game had way too many battling and not enough quiet time) over Exploration and Customization. Like I said, I thought FF XIII was a good and at times even great game, nothing more, nothing less. I don't like everything about it but the things I like overshadow the problems I have with it.

CorvoSol said:
The ending to XIII-2 defies every single thing that has happened in both games and invalidates what's happened in them, this is why it's a nonsensical clusterfuck. Specifically,
1. Cocoon could not and should not have fallen. You spent 2 games to keep it in the air and in this game you specifically undid everything that was supposed to make it fall. It still does. 2. Caius could have killed himself at any point in the game, but does not do it until the end of the game. Please do not tell me Noel did it because that's not at all true and I will not tolerate lies in the face of facts. 3. Serah dies, even though the future didn't change. Especially since Caius dies outside of the flow of time.

1- Cocoon fell because of the erosion, that's something that nobody could prevent, the pillar was getting weaker and weaker by the day regardless of anything. Those flans for instance were only accelerating the process.
2- Yes in intent, Caius did "kill himself" but the physical action was done by the hands of Noel and if you paid attention to how the guardian thing works you would know that Caius is 99.9% immortal. The only way he can die is by the hand of another guardian.
And while he took Noel hand to stab himself, it was still Noel hand holding the weapon so it counted.
When Caius dies at the hand of a guardian, the heart is transfer to the new guardian, BUT if the new guardian will is strong enough, the heart is rejected and dies releasing the chaos.
So Caius spent the whole game building up Noel's will, then had Noel kill him.
Explained in the game, explained in the fragments. you can criticize it for using shoddy and arbitrary rules but it is what it is. With no one else to take the chaos into oneself(Etro's Heart), the world is devoid of a guardian and the chaos just spreads all over the world.
3- Of course the future changed, the future wasnt supposed to be drenched in chaos, Noel's world was "the future" and in that future you didn't see Chaos invading the whole world because Etro hadn't been killed by Caius yet.


CorvoSol said:
-
Lightning had no choice but to destroy Cocoon and serve Barthandelus, but she still fought that. This is the epitome of character derailment
-
If Snow can use the crystal to come back, why doesn't he? Even if you factor that in, he's missing from Serah's life for years. Even though he can leave and come back. Do you understand how time travel works? If I go back two hundred years I am no longer in a rush to do anything two hundred years from then because I have two hundred years spare time now and also I can always travel in time again to correct mistakes. Square made a video game about this very concept once upon a time. It was called Chrono Trigger and it didn't suck.

Why wouldn't she become Etro's guardian? It was in her best interest, after she was taken to Valhalla at the hands of the unseen chaos(it's explained what the unseen chaos is in LR), she was told what was going on and what Caius wanted to do and asked by Etro to protect time itself. If she hadnt become the Knight of Valhalla the world would have been destroyed without a fight, why would she even deny Etro? She is not evil in anyway nor do we have any reason to believe she is. In fact she is the one who turned them back from Cieth in the original XIII because of her "mercy and pity" and for her foolishness she created the paradox that resulted in the appearance of the time gates by breaking the rules of Falcie/L'cie established by Bhunivelze. Etro basically broke the rules of the world by saving the cast in the original XIII and that led to all sorts of problems in the timeline. There are reasons that explain her behaviour and motivations for doing what she did but let's not get into that because it also needs LR spoilers.

At the Snow thing.. No I know how time traveling works lol. Look he travelled into the future to try and prevent the pillar from falling, it was a fool's quest but he wasn't going to abandon Fang and Vanille until the moment the pillar was going to inevitably fall. Snow is a selfless man, not to mention that YES, he did indeed have the time gate to go back to his past because that was how he went into the future in the first place. When you become a time traveler you can go anywhere where there are gates to jump to but time still makes you age regularly. If I time travelled back to the past, time would still regularly flow relative to me and I would be getting old just the same. Time is relative to each object basically. Time is constantly flowing for me even if Im jumping into different moments of the timeline.

CorvoSol said:
1. Again, I explained how Hope was out of character, but here's the run down for you. Please actually read it this time: A. Hope fought to free mankind from Fal'Cie. So why does he now want to build one? B. Cocoon was a floating death trap and Hope knows it. Pulse is full of life and sustained humanity long before Cocoon ever existed. Why would Hope go back? C. Eden was Barthandelus' coconspirator in killing off all of mankind. WHY WOULD HE USE ITS BRAIN TO BUILD A NEW FAL'CIE? D. The Fal'Cie were created by Lindzei. A God. How the fuck does Hope suddenly know how to build one? E. WHY THE FUCK WOULD HE WANT TO? THEY KILLED HIS MOM. THEY DESTROYED HIS WORLD. What kind of person is simultaneously smart enough to reverse engineer the work of a God and retarded enough to trust his mother's murderer not to try and kill him again? Besides Toriyama? F. Hope has access to Serah and Noel who can freely move back and forth through time at absolutely 0 cost. WHY WOULD HE TAKE A ONE WAY TRIP 500 YEARS INTO THE FUTURE? Isn't he supposed to be smart? G. When did Hope become smart? No mention of this genius is made in XIII.

Do you really not see that Hope not anticipating that is precisely the problem? Of course Eden would betray him! What reason was there to think it wouldn't? What kind of genius didn't think that through?

Hope wanted to go back to Cocoon because Cocoon was a perfect place for humanity to live in. Pulse is harsh to live in with the wild beasts and various other environmental reasons like the climate , hell, the peoples of Pulse all went extinct for a reason, not to mention that Hope himself learned of Noel's future through Serah and wanted to try and do something to fix it, don't forget that he only got the idea to build a new Cocoon after he learned that inevitably humanity was going to "burn", it was his way of trying to change the future by working in his own time to prevent humanity's downfall.
Also, he based Proto Falcie in the behaviour patterns of Eden and created an AI based on that but he HAD ONLY programmed the society monitoring aspects of it into the AI.. Once again I'll repeat because you didn't read last time. The AI went haywire and acquire sentience, something he could not predict.. He didn't build a Falcie, he built a robot based on behavioural patterns of Falcie that mantained society in the old cocoon, you apparently failed to see things, he made an AI from scratch, he didnt recreate Eden in the way you are saying.
His 1 way trip to the future WAS A SMART MOVE! Doing that allowed him to accelerate and lead completion of the New Cocoon. Hadn't he contributed to the project, they wouldn't have finished New Cocoon in time because he would have died too soon had he stayed in his timeline and died of old age there. His contributions were absolutely paramount in that last stage of completion
We get the hint that Hope is a genius in XIII because he has the natural highest intelligence stat in the game.. Look obviously XIII-2 wasn't planned from the very beginning and, they took some liberties with the story. There are a few shoddy parts but everything has an explanation whether you like that explanation or not. It's something I am willing to overlook in the grand scheme of things because I ended up loving the final product.

2. Spare me the merry-go-round of "but boys and girls don't have to be attracted to be friends!" because that has no bearing on this at all. Serah never even considers whether it would be wrong to go gallivanting off with a guy she doesn't know instead of waiting for the boyfriend who abandoned her 5 years back or whatever. I have female friends I'm not attracted to, but it takes 5 seconds to think about this and see what's wrong: I've known these friends for years. Serah JUST met Noel and she goes running off with him. Shoot, I have a female friend who is married and I still try to use my brain in interaction so as not to send the wrong message to her husband. Can you imagine if she and I just ran off together and we'd only just met? Even knowing her for as long as I had if we just up and ran off it's still going to look bad. That neither of them brings it up is a pretty big oversight.

This is a very idiotic complain to me, Im sorry.. Did you even play the same game as I? Don't you remember the visions Serah was having of her sister in Valhalla? Don't you remember how Noel came from Valhalla and told Serah exactly what she had seen in her visions? Don't you remember that not only did Serah leave to save the world at the request of HER SISTER, she also left with the intent of looking for Snow?.. Don't you remember how Serah started seeing various abnormalities in her own time, like monters appearing out of nowhere, meteors falling, etc etc.. She decided to do something about it, she was already going to had Noel not come.. Noel gave her the final confirmation that she needed to finally take some kind of action..
Is she supposed to stay put and rot in her time waiting for her husband like some kind of Damsel in distress? She decided to take matters into her own hands.
 

Perfo

Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
Oh man, differently from what I expected I must say the writing in FFX is absolutely worse than anything I've seen in the full FFXIII trilogy. The events themselves are also not that well paced, with important story moments crowded together every 10 steps sometimes while next leaving you almost an hour alone without anything important happening.

As for the voice acting...we know this already, absolutely terrible -.-'

They also ruined Yuna & Tidus'faces in this HD remaster :\
 

Holykael1

Banned
Oh man, differently from what I expected I must say the writing in FFX is absolutely worse than anything I've seen in the full FFXIII trilogy. The events themselves are also not that well paced, with important story moments crowded together every 10 steps sometimes while next leaving you almost an hour alone without anything important happening.

As for the voice acting...we know this already, absolutely terrible -.-'

They also ruined Yuna & Tidus'faces in this HD remaster. They really screwed up there.

Examples?
In the original 13 you could spend upwards of 3 hours without anything important happening, I dont feel your assessment at all. FF X has more exploration and focus on gameplay things like side activities, towns , etc.. 13 is on rails hence why it has a more focused pacing but it didn't pay off all that well considering that the story itself is worse than FF X's.
"Bad" pacing is not bad writing.
Have to agree with you on the faces though.
 

Levyne

Banned
I often don't mind stretches of story less "gameplay" at all. I remember in the back half of XII going something like three or four maps in a row without encountering much of anything resembling narrative and I actually really liked it a lot.

X does have the bad habit of spacing out cutscenes where all you do between them is move your avatar a few steps to initiate the next. But that's not a complaint about the pacing as a whole, just that sort of thing specifically.
 

Perfo

Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
Examples? In the original 13 you could spend upwards of 3 hours without anything important happening, I dont feel your assessment at all. FF X has more exploration and focus on gameplay. 13 is on rails hence why it has a more focused pacing but it didn't pay off all that well considering that the story itself is worse than FF X's.

Mii'hen road is a really boring part for now, almost 40 minutes of corridor (in a more extreme way than anything I've seen in XIII, at least "visually" this last one tried to mix things up thanks to the power of "graphics x style") and super frequent battles (higher encounter rate here?).

I also don't feel for now this "more" gameplay-focus compared to XIII, if anything for now looks and plays very similar, except everything is more slow all around. What XIII does definitely better is pacing, cutting away alot of the boring stuff from it (encounters are less and few, battles faster, menus and systems visually more simple to manage, cutting on loadings between changing locations ect.). I really see XIII as an evolution of X for now. Well except for the sidequests that were really few in XIII but I must also add to this that too many things are missable in FFX without a guide, and I usually don't like games that don't make things clear before moving on (for example I can't revisit the first two temples for now to collect the chests I missed). A game should make its rules clear for the player and FFX forgets this continuesly with arbitrary rules changed constantly. This is a case of bad design.
 

Levyne

Banned
I always thought of X as very "no guide" friendly. The presence of dark aeons does diminish that thought a bit but I don't feel it compromises it entirely.
 

Holykael1

Banned
Mii'hen road is a really boring part for now, almost 40 minutes of corridor (in a more extreme way than anything I've seen in XIII, at least "visually" this last one tried to mix things up thanks to the power of "graphics x style") and super frequent battles (higher encounter rate here?).

I also don't feel for now this "more" gameplay-focus compared to XIII, if anything for now looks and plays very similar, except everything is more slow all around. What XIII does definitely better is pacing, cutting away alot of the boring stuff from it (encounters are less and few, battles faster, menus and systems visually more simple to manage, cutting on loadings between changing locations ect.). I really see XIII as an evolution of X for now. Well except for the sidequests that were really few in XIII but I must also add to this that too many things are missable in FFX without a guide, and I usually don't like games that don't make things clear before moving on (for example I can't revisit the first two temples for now to collect the chests I missed). A game should make its rules clear for the player and FFX forgets this continuesly with arbitrary rules changed constantly. This is a case of bad design.

I can't believe im playing defense force in defense of a Final Fantasy game against Perfo himself but here we go ahah.
You cant revisite 90% of the locations in FF XIII either and PERMANTENTLY I might add.
The rules don't change constantly, how so?
Also you are nitpicking on aspects that were ahead of it's time and simply a product of aging. 10 years from now, FF XIII's menus and usability will probably be dated in comparison to what comes in the future. It's a product of the natural evolution of technology.

FF XIII is fighting and cutscenes, that's not necessarily good pacing when all you do is FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT, cutscene, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT x100, cutscene, it gets old fast not to mention that later in the game enemies have way too much health and if you don't do many pulse sidequests you are going to have a bad time. FF X has annoying random encounter rate in a few places, that's true but atleast you don't need to grind for the story to be perfectly beatable and unbearably slow.

Nevertheless, I don't tend to focus on such trivial trite. I prefer to appreciate actual relevant things(For me personally atleast) like actual story, character development, battle system and music. Those are the aspects where a game shows it's depth and substance.
Your complaints are mostly associated to production values and that's extremely shallow imo.

I feel weird. I don't like to make comparison arguments, they feel disengenuous instead of talking about the merits of each game in an individual basis.
 

Perfo

Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
I was making comparisons because XIII and X are very often compared, infact I'm not even mentioning any other entries in the series. The two titles share similar intentions and game design so it's easy to talk about them with straight comparisons.
I'm now in mushroom rock (or how it is called), game is really clunky but that's got alot to do with – like you said – the game being old more than anything. But it's interesting nonetheless for me seeing how much my memories are foggy after so many years. I thought FFX could be a better game than XIII, and when I started it again it seemed like that. But soon after I left Besaid Island I must say things are getting quite worse than what I remembered. I like the remastered soundtrack though, helps that Hamauzu is my favorite composer at S-E and that he is taking care of all of it this time. Great music indeed.
 
Oh man, differently from what I expected I must say the writing in FFX is absolutely worse than anything I've seen in the full FFXIII trilogy. The events themselves are also not that well paced, with important story moments crowded together every 10 steps sometimes while next leaving you almost an hour alone without anything important happening.

As for the voice acting...we know this already, absolutely terrible -.-'

They also ruined Yuna & Tidus'faces in this HD remaster :\

Definitely disagree about the FFX vs XIII stuff. The writing in both games are pretty meh, but X's is still better as a whole. And the story of X is leagues above anything found in the XIII trilogy (and this is coming from someone who actually liked and played all 3 games). I think the storyline is well-paced for the most part, but I do admit there are some odd moments of cutscene -> walk 10 steps -> cutscenes that repeats a few times, but that isn't really a big deal. And "sometimes while next leaving you almost an hour alone without anything important happening" = wut? I guess it depends on how you qualify important. Every JRPG goes through long points of nothing much happening storywise (XIII is extremely guilty of this).

I won't deny that the voice acting is very subpar, though. There are some standout moments here and there, but yeah.

I've actually gotten used to Tidus' new face and like it (although I still feel like he shows a little less emotion than his old one). I do not like Yuna's new face at all though. They ruined her eyes... she just looks kinda creepy in cutscenes with how wide she has her eyes all the time. :/
 

Levyne

Banned
I didn't like Tidus's face at all from the start. I liked Yuna's face at the start but noticed more and more how it animated weirdly and stiffly (in a game where facial animation isn't that great to begin with).

Yuna's "full motion" face in X-2 also seems weird to me. Somewhat "Kingdom Hearts-esqe". Though that face isn't new.
 
The weird thing is, I hated Tidus' face at first. Like even in the intro cutscene with them sitting around the campfire, I hate his face. It looks so emotionless and he looks rather... high. lol. But as the game progresses, I think they do a better job at animating his face. That said, I still prefer his original one. Yuna's is... well it's just bad. Like I said, I think it's the eyes.
 

CorvoSol

Member
So change of gears here, but I hope everyone is as excited as I am about Curtain Call. Because regardless of what we think of the individual quality of FF games I like to think that for the most part the whole series has had an amazing soundtrack, and Curtain Call will let players experience that without being bogged down by elements they may have found otherwise disagreeable in FF games.

In other words, I am hype as hell that Ramza, Benjamin, Ace and FFCC's Clavat are in, because of what that implies.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
So change of gears here, but I hope everyone is as excited as I am about Curtain Call. Because regardless of what we think of the individual quality of FF games I like to think that for the most part the whole series has had an amazing soundtrack, and Curtain Call will let players experience that without being bogged down by elements they may have found otherwise disagreeable in FF games.

In other words, I am hype as hell that Ramza, Benjamin, Ace and FFCC's Clavat are in, because of what that implies.

Rem and Machina are in as well. So if it localizes...I have to get it.
 

CorvoSol

Member
It also has Jecht and Fran :D

(Hasn't played Theatrhythm)

Does it? OH MAAAAAAAAAAAN. I love Jecht. Some people think Auron is the coolest member of the cast in FFX, but Jecht is where it is at. Which reminds me, FFX-2 SPOILERS
Does the HD version include the mission you play as Auron, Jecht and Braska? And the bonus dress spheres?

Rem and Machina are in as well. So if it localizes...I have to get it.

I just wish Machina had his better alternate outfit. You know the one.
 

Levyne

Banned
Does it? OH MAAAAAAAAAAAN. I love Jecht. Some people think Auron is the coolest member of the cast in FFX, but Jecht is where it is at. Which reminds me, FFX-2 SPOILERS
Does the HD version include the mission you play as Auron, Jecht and Braska? And the bonus dress spheres?
.

Yep. I just want to be careful posting a link because of scans.

(X-2)
It has the dressspheres and, I think it has the extra mission(s?) but I'm unsure on that because I haven't reached them yet.
 
[I haven't played FF1-3]

FFIV: This game honestly reminds me a great deal of FFXIII. There's much more "world" to it, but with regard to battle design, it's very much about constantly switching up your party on you and forcing you to find a new rhythm. The battles are also very much about attrition (managing a good balance of HP/MP loss, buffs/debuffs, and damage output) and pretty much every time the game changes your party up on you, you need to radically shift your strategies. This turns each boss battle into something of a puzzle based on finding the correct balance of these factors (and, often, attacking a series of targets in the correct order), and it's also very much designed around the fact that Cecil is a Paladin (he's there for damage output AND party defense AND healing) and therefore as flexible as he needs to be for each party configuration in the game. FFIV does a better job than FFXIII of making sure that this feels like a part of the main game and not like tutorial; in many ways FFIV doesn't *fully* open up until you get your final party into place, but it does a great job of disguising that along the way. However, FFIV probably has the dullest ability/character progression system in the series. It *does* do possibly the best job in the series of making each new weapon you obtain feel like it makes a genuine difference, though - each new piece of equipment feels like a major, important upgrade. The debut of the ATB system is also quite important. But the way that each different party configuration makes a serious and real impact on how you handle parties is a big big deal.

FFIV DS does a great job of fixing the character progression system with the Augment system - which adds a LOT of dimension to the game. For the most part it's still very much attrition-based, and boss battles are still about attrition management and attacking a series of targets in the correct order. FFIV DS is *very, very heavily* oriented toward people who have already played FFIV - many boss battles are designed specifically to fuck you up extra hard if you use the old familiar strategy from the original game - and it expects its player to be a veteran of JRPGs, which is why it's one of the toughest FF games released in a long time. The nature of the augment system also makes it especially opaque to people not using a walkthrough to know how they ought to be building their party. It's a fantastic game as fanservice, but it continues to share most of the flaws of the original and is less accessible to boot.

FFV marks a major leap forward for the series in terms of progression. The Job System in FFV (marked by its much greater sense of customization than FFIII's due to the way you can mix and match abilities) is a brilliant one. However, as a result of the new version of the Job system, it's the first game in the series to introduce a heavy concept of 'breakability,' one that is both a lot of fun and tends to make games way, way too easy once you figure out some secret combination of abilities and equipment. However, the game is extraordinarily replayable and gives you tons of options for solving your problems. If FFIV's sense of progress was defined by getting new party members and finding new weapons, FFV's is all about getting (and mastering) new jobs and leveling to specific new abilities. Especially because equipment is very limited to job type, the class being equipped tends to overshadow the importance of new equipment in the game. FFV is all about dishing out physical damage, though - mages are fantastic for crushing certain bosses, but the sheer utility of dual-wielding or the Monk class can't be beat. It's also one of the first games in the series to really let you cripple the shit out of your enemies with status attacks, which is a big part of what makes it so flexible and replayable. This one's a total dud as far as the story is concerned, and equipment that isn't a Protect Ring or Ribbon never feels particularly important, but it does a great job of making each class feel genuinely useful. FFV takes the flexibility that Cecil has in FFIV and extends it to the entire party. This results in each character's "personality" not really making its way through to battle, and when FFV goes through a major death and the switch from Galuf to his horrid granddaughter Krile, your party feels precisely no different because the characters are so interchangeable.

FFVI goes back toward FFIV in terms of making each character feel more unique - however, it's very much like FFV too, in the sense that they're all capable of massive damage output, great defense, and plenty of general healing and support after a certain point in the game. FFVI's character differences are generally cosmetic - input methods aside, Setzer's "Royal Flush" attack and Edgar's "Flash" attack are barely different in function - but they make all the difference in terms of giving everyone who plays it their favorite set of party members. Regardless of whether the characters all truly *function* differently, they all *feel* different. FFVI is the one game in the series that really goes the full distance in terms of having its characters express their personalities in battle; the balance of the game suffers for it and mechanically they're not all that well-differentiated at all, but each one FEELS different, and that's why the game is near and dear to the hearts of so many. Its soundtrack also leans much more heavily on the device of leitmotif than most, and it's quite telling that FFVI's end credits music is mostly composed of a nostalgic final visit to every single character's musical theme. FFVI is much, much more about characters than it is about story. This is especially obvious in the second half of the game. The game's plot frankly falls apart at the end of the World of Balance; in the World of Ruin, the game is all about hunting down your party members, completing fun sidequests (many of which are about resolving problems for your party members), and finally going after Kefka. But there are some pretty big flaws in the World of Ruin: because the game can't predict which characters you'll have with you during certain cutscenes/dialogue segments, it just takes certain lines and shoves them in the mouth of whichever characters happen to be present. This has certain obviously weird consequences (there are a few spots in the World of Ruin where you can have Gau, Gogo, and/or Umaro lucidly speaking lines that clearly shouldn't be emerging from their ordinarily mute or inarticulate mouths), but beyond the especially silly examples, it means that character development, as much as it's the focus of the second game, is severely hampered for the characters that aren't the actual focus of a given sidequest. (This is an issue that Square-Enix sort of tried to revisit in Chrono Cross, with a sort of syntax modifier that altered the sound of certain lines depending on who was speaking them, to decidedly mixed results). FFVI takes some of the modifiers that existed in the Job System in FFV and instead incorporates them into the Relic/accessory system, allowing for a good deal of customization; the Esper system (accessible maybe a third of the way into the game) allows you to teach magic to the entire party. FFVI is very much about dealing magic damage most of the time until you get to some of the serious multi-hit physical attack stuff later in the game. Relics and accessories have the effect of making characters mostly interchangeable, but the amounts of difference that persist keep them feeling quite different from each other even though the difficulty takes a nosedive when the Espers are introduced and disappears altogether once you hit the World of Ruin.

FFVII makes the grand leap into 3D for the series. In many ways it does a lot less than FFVI to differentiate between characters, but in some ways it does a great deal more. It goes much farther than FFIV or FFVI does in terms of keeping each character's equipment set different from the rest (the characters in the game share absolutely zero weapons with each other, a first for the series), and is the first game in the series to introduce truly unique "ultimate" weapons for each character that aren't just stronger than their other weapons but are actually mechanically differentiated in some special way (the best-known example using mechanics similar to the Atma Weapon and Valiant Knife from FFVI, which deal damage that is heavily dependent on the user's HP), and easily the most simplified equipment system in any of the FF games up until this point. FFVII does away with the always-accessible character-specific attacks from FFVI, but opts instead for much flashier and more noticeable/memorable per-character "Limit Breaks" - an evolved version of FFVI's rarely-seen Desperation Attacks. These are generally just things that serve the function of pumping out a certain amount of damage (though sometimes in different ways - Vincent's limit breaks are somewhat more akin to the specialized-berserker forms seen in Mog and Gau in FFVI). The Materia system's a very interesting way of making sure each character's stats are roughly balanced out to their suitabilities for battle and it offers incredible depths of flexibility, though it suffers from what was at this point becoming a common problem in the series: that of effectively turning each character into a clone of the others. But every time you get a new materia in the game, it feels like a big damn deal and makes a noticeable difference in how powerful your party is, which is important. This raises the most important point of FFVII --- Aeris is the most heavily-differentiated character in the game. She's the only character who straight-up sucks at physical attacks and vastly overpowers everyone else at magic use, she's the only character (barring one single Limit Break of Yuffie's) with a set of defensive limit breaks. And the game kills her and never brings her back or replaces her with someone who plays a similar role. It's a fascinating design choice, and her absence is felt all the way through the end of the game.

FFVIII makes a lot of very interesting design choices and is one of the most experimental games in the series. Its bizarre leveling system makes the difficulty of the game go up precisely in proportion to how much leveling you've done; it's easily the most breakable FF game, albeit in strongly counterintuitive ways; it even makes choices like having a main character who's effectively immune to Blind status and is incapable of dealing critical 2x damage, but who is capable of dealing 1.5x damage with every single hit for the whole game. It's also easily got the simplest equipment system in the whole series (outside of unlocking Squall's limit breaks and unlocking Blind-immunity/perfect accuracy for Selphie, your weapons have only an extremely minor effect on your power, and they're often pretty complicated to obtain). FFVIII's ability/growth systems are bizarre and radically experimental, and in many ways more geared toward minmaxing powergamers than toward traditional JRPG gameplay. It also strikes a fascinating balance between FFVI's Desperation Attacks and FFVII's Limit Breaks, giving overpowered and cinematic abilities, but allowing for a very interesting risk/reward system that lets you give yourself near-constant access to your powerful Limit Break abilities in exchange for making your party vastly more vulnerable (though this system is seriously breakable with the Aura spell, which is a damn shame). FFVIII's one of the most-flawed games in the series but it's a fascinating entry. It's also the first FF game to introduce a minigame that runs throughout the entire game: Triple Triad. Triple Triad is great fun *and* it's a way to cheese a huge amount of the game by giving yourself access to extraordinarily powerful spells, abilities, and items earlier than you'd be able to obtain them otherwise. Again, FFVIII is a game made from the ground up for people who look at game systems as something to break and turn to their own advantage.

FFIX is the game where the venerable ATB system really started to show its age, and arguably the primary impetus for the more radical speed-focused alterations to the battle system that began with FFX. FFIX makes the mistake of NEVER pausing the ATB timer (FFIV and FFV pause it anytime any move is being executed; FFVI-FFVIII pause it during more elaborate/cinematic attacks), which results in turns getting queued up minutes in advance and often in reaction to situations that are no longer applicable. It's also the first mainline FF game since FFVI to have five pieces of equipment per character and to allow some characters to share weapon types. Its equipment/ability system makes obtaining equipment a huge deal, and actually allows for a surprising amount of character flexibility (in terms of being able to equip and use any abilities on your equipped items regardless of whether you've yet permanently learned them from the piece of equipment). In my own playthroughs it often trends toward completionist grinding in order to prioritize learning all abilities, I must confess. Its assorted party members feel like a set of functions rather than a set of personalities, however. It's also got heavily differentiated roles for party members in a way that's much more akin to FFIV than FFVI (though it also introduces the concept of the white mage/summoner, a combination that would pop right back up in FFX and guarantees that every single party member is capable of being a damage dealer). Another thing it has in common with Final Fantasy X is the idea of the lead character as a fast/light attack character who gets tons of turns. FFIX's Ability Stones passive-ability system is pretty primitive and it can often feel difficult to really optimize your equipment in the game, and its stat-growth system is opaque as opaque can get; but it's a great effort at a classic FF that manages to let you go on the full offense while also making your party makeup truly matter instead of merely being an aesthetic preference (though, like FFVI, this aspect falls apart more and more the further you get into the game and everybody becomes an offensive powerhouse with Auto-Regen rendering them practically unkillable). The Trance system's an interesting one, but mostly ends up being a distraction as your characters

FFX is the last FF game from before the Square/Enix merger and it's arguably the first "modern" FF in many ways (though some would put FFVI or FFVII in that position - go figure that they're the three most commonly cited as people's first/most impactful FF game). It adds (dodgy) voice acting, a fully 3D world (albeit one without camera control), and removes the world map in favor of a more strictly (and more honestly?) linear journey (albeit one well-justified by the story). The Sphere Grid and an equipment system that isn't based around weapons having stats of their own is a pretty interesting departure from previous games, but one I find really interesting. Every +4 you get to a major stat in FFX *really* makes itself felt - the Sphere Grid does a great job of intimately acquainting the player with each character's strengths and weaknesses. Final Fantasy X does a curious job of specializing each character VERY heavily for the bulk of the main game (and, unfortunately, giving too many palette-swapped fodder enemies for one-hit kills - there are plenty of enemies that don't fit that mold in the game but there are enough of them that that's what people remember most, and FFX is decidedly not a very challenging game) while making them EXTREMELY identical in the endgame (not even allowing for customized loadouts like FFVII or FFVIII - everybody can and will learn every single non-Overdrive non-Summon ability). It's also the first FF game to do away with in-battle "rows," which have never returned to the series since. But arguably the biggest and most important difference FFX introduced to the series was the CTB - not because future games would use it, but because it heralded the end of the ATB's streak of use in FF games. The CTB feels a great deal like the turn-order menu in Final Fantasy Tactics, and is a tick-based system that lets you preview the upcoming turn order, manipulate that turn order, and act with some foreknowledge of what's happening next. This has the effect of speeding up the game somewhat (no waiting for bars to fill up, immediate feedback) while also giving you time to strategize. Consequently, FFX is *about* immediate responses to the situation and strategizing, and it's very much built around single, decisive turns. Hence the hard-counter enemies that get one-hit-killed by the "correct" character; hence the Overkill system (which is all about delivering tons of damage in one single turn); hence a system of making more powerful moves generally delay a character's next turn. FFX is well-realized in a number of great ways, which is what makes it a bummer that its ultimate weapons are generally unlocked/powered up in some pretty silly and unfun ways (which sparked a lot of complaint when the game came out and again when it was rereleased recently), and a bummer that the fantastic and versatile swiss-army-knife party you have access to over the course of the game (which are well-realized in battle with individual lines they speak during battle depending on context and movesets and statistical tendencies that stay well-differentiated for the course of the story) turn into a bunch of clones once you max them all out, drastically discouraging any need to switch them in and out during battle. One underrated thing that FFX did extraordinarily well, I ought to mention, is that nearly every single story-based boss battle in it is actually a part of the plot instead of just being a strong monster that shows up at a particular point. They're mostly Sinspawn, Seymour, or Yevon-related; the only real exceptions are the early enemies Klikk, Geosgaeno, and whatever the octopus is called, and then the Spherimorph in Macalania Woods. Every other boss fight is directly tied to the story and manages to help Spira feel like the most well-told and cohesive FF world we've ever seen.

FFXII is in many ways a polar opposite of FFX. Boasting some of the best voice acting and localization we've seen in video games, full camera control, and oodles of what could charitably be called freedom (or uncharitably called a lack of direction), it's a gorgeous, extraordinarily ambitious, sloppy, sprawling counterpoint to FFX's honed, toned-down focus.
 
Oh my god my entry on FFX-2, my completed entry on FFXII, and my entries on FFXIII and FFXIII-2 disappeared because I took too long to write this. I'm going to cry.
 

Levyne

Banned
Can't read the whole thing at this moment but I read the FFX entry.

Final Fantasy X does a curious job of specializing each character VERY heavily for the bulk of the main game (and, unfortunately, giving too many palette-swapped fodder enemies for one-hit kills - there are plenty of enemies that don't fit that mold in the game but there are enough of them that that's what people remember most,

I like how this is phrased. Simply calling it purely "rock paper scissors" is a little bit dishonest, but not entirely untrue. The expert grid allowing you to blur the lines of the preset roles is a welcome addition to further alleviate this.
 

Wazzy

Banned
So change of gears here, but I hope everyone is as excited as I am about Curtain Call. Because regardless of what we think of the individual quality of FF games I like to think that for the most part the whole series has had an amazing soundtrack, and Curtain Call will let players experience that without being bogged down by elements they may have found otherwise disagreeable in FF games.

In other words, I am hype as hell that Ramza, Benjamin, Ace and FFCC's Clavat are in, because of what that implies.

It's one of my most hyped games. I loved the first and now I can use Rinoa :D
 

Kuja9001

Banned
1. Again, I explained how Hope was out of character, but here's the run down for you. Please actually read it this time: A. Hope fought to free mankind from Fal'Cie. So why does he now want to build one? B. Cocoon was a floating death trap and Hope knows it. Pulse is full of life and sustained humanity long before Cocoon ever existed. Why would Hope go back? C. Eden was Barthandelus' coconspirator in killing off all of mankind. WHY WOULD HE USE ITS BRAIN TO BUILD A NEW FAL'CIE? D. The Fal'Cie were created by Lindzei. A God. How the fuck does Hope suddenly know how to build one? E. WHY THE FUCK WOULD HE WANT TO? THEY KILLED HIS MOM. THEY DESTROYED HIS WORLD. What kind of person is simultaneously smart enough to reverse engineer the work of a God and retarded enough to trust his mother's murderer not to try and kill him again? Besides Toriyama? F. Hope has access to Serah and Noel who can freely move back and forth through time at absolutely 0 cost. WHY WOULD HE TAKE A ONE WAY TRIP 500 YEARS INTO THE FUTURE? Isn't he supposed to be smart? G. When did Hope become smart? No mention of this genius is made in XIII.

1. Hope studied to get smart.

2. Adam is a "man-made" fal'Cie. It has "parts" from Anima and the rest is just scraps.

3. Everything was running good with Adam until Alyssa purposely messed with it and it killed everyone.
 
1. Hope studied to get smart.

2. Adam is a "man-made" fal'Cie. It has "parts" from Anima and the rest is just scraps.

3. Everything was running good with Adam until Alyssa purposely messed with it and it killed everyone.

10 years of study does not equal building planets (that originally took a god), time capsules (completely new field of study), "meta shields", inventing paradox weapons (again, completely new field of study), etc. That'd give The Doctor a run for his money. Add that to the fact that at no point in XIII was Hope portrayed to be anything but an average school kid and I'm sorry, there's no merit to that statement. There's just no way for me to suspend my disbelief that far. At least with the others you can see why they obtained those positions: Lightning is a great fighter (hence her being able to fend off Caius as the "Warrior Goddess"/"Knight of the Goddess"), Snow is charismatic and people are naturally drawn to him (hence becoming the Mayor), Sazh was already a pilot so he went back to that, and Serah became a teacher like she planned to in the novellas. Hope becoming a prodigy at science was pulled out of left field for the sake of having an exposition character and not based on previous characterization on any kind of believable way of making him so.
 

CorvoSol

Member
1. Hope studied to get smart.

2. Adam is a "man-made" fal'Cie. It has "parts" from Anima and the rest is just scraps.

3. Everything was running good with Adam until Alyssa purposely messed with it and it killed everyone.

No, you're wrong.

From FFXIII-2

Proto fal'Cie Adam Fragment said:
The Proto fal'Cie known as Adam was built by humans. Some of the memory modules of the fal'Cie Eden, which once controlled Cocoon, were transplanted to the artificial fal'Cie.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Those are exclusively bodily components. The actual "brain" was manmade it was an AI created by Hope and his team of scientists. Did you miss my rebuttal to your yday's post?

MEMORY. MODULES.

You mean the post where you argued that crystal can erode in the space of 500 years even though that's impossible? No, I saw that.
 

Holykael1

Banned
MEMORY. MODULES.

You mean the post where you argued that crystal can erode in the space of 500 years even though that's impossible? No, I saw that.

Ah, so you are assuming real life logic for what is a fantastical world where crystals are associated with magic powers and all sorts of unreal things? Not to mention that monsters and all sorts of surreal environmental things interact with said crystals.
Fine.. I just can't relate to that approach at all.

I will also add that:
"Proto fal'Cie Adam (デミ・ファルシ=アダム, Demi Farushi Adamu?, lit. "Demi fal'Cie Adam") is a man-made fal'Cie from Final Fantasy XIII-2 made sentient with advanced AI."

The memory modules implanted in the Falcie were responsible for the physical tasks of the falcie itself, not it's motivations or sentience. The actual sentience was acquire through AI. Think of it like this, we have parts of our brains associated with reflexes and all sorts of other functional traits, that's what was implanted in the Proto Falcie.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Ah, so you are assuming real life logic for what is a fantastical world where crystals are associated with magic powers and all sorts of unreal things? Not to mention that monsters and all sorts of surreal environmental things interact with said crystals.
Fine.. I just can't relate to that approach at all.

This is not a valid argument. Lightning has arms and legs and yes, I assume that they work like arms and legs do. A machine has a memory module and I assume it works like a memory module does. She rides a train and I assume that "train" means the same fucking thing because why call it a fucking train if it doesn't work like a fucking train does?

You are free to hide behind your bullshit excuse of "BUT MAGIC" but know that that's all it is: a pathetic, miserable, infantile defense which nobody, yourself included, is fooled by.

A dog is a dog is a dog. A memory module is a memory module is a memory module. A boy is a boy is a boy. The presence of magic does not negate the existence of logic anywhere but in your head, and even then I doubt you believe what you're trying to sell here.

But permit me, for one final time, FF GAF, to put these nails where they must be and then move on with the topic. I apologize to the numerous, silent voices who find this lengthy back and forth reprehensible.

What follows are spoilers for Final Fantasy XIII and its sequel.

Point the First: The Crystal Pillar and Cocoon could not under any circumstances have fallen. Not should. Could. Disregard the fact that you actively prevent every single thing that should cause that pillar to fall for a moment and just consider the basic, physical problems of the matter. According to Mohs' hardness scale Quartz is 7th hardest form of stone, behind Topaz, Corundum and Diamond. I'm discarding some kinds of crystal from the discussion, such as salt and ice, because it's the height of absurdity to expect that that is what formed the crystal pillar. A quick search of Wikipedia reveals that CRYSTAL IS RESISTANT TO WEATHER-BASED EROSION. Now, unless the skies of Pulse are fucking ACIDIC, the rain is barely going to do anything in 500 years! In fact, there are quartz hills in Britain that have lasted 10,000 years! For those of you doing the math, 20 times longer than FFXIII and with nary a change in formation. So no, natural erosion would not weaken the crystal shell of Cocoon in 500 years. Note further that the actual shell of Cocoon was in the Sky over Pulse for 13,000 years and the only damage it had taken was when it was directly attacked by Ragnarok, the same being who had formed the structure which now upheld it. The argument that the absence of Fal'Cie allows for Cocoon to disintegrate doesn't hold up because if that were true what need would Barthandelus have had for knocking it from the sky? Why was so much of it still visibly intact as late as 400 AF? Sometimes I swear people who say "it eroded!" have no idea how erosion actually works. Toriyama clearly did not. And for the sake of argument, "BUT MAGIC" doesn't help us either, since "MAGICAL RAIN REWRITING THE PRINCIPLES OF EROSION" make no sense. Consider how long Oerba's structures are standing even though they're out in the open and not forged by the might of demi-Gods! If anything, the argument that magic is delaying erosion is the one to be made, and not the insipid contrary.

Point the Second: Hope cannot have studied to learn to do what he did. Nowhere in XIII do we have any indication that the Fal'Cie are leaving manuals on their operation, and it makes sense they wouldn't, since you know, the population of Cocoon is just livestock to them, and teaching them things about how to build a subservient version of themselves that humanity can control is entirely contrary to the entire goal of the Fal'Cie from the beginning of XIII's mythos onward. Furthermore, the world had ended, society was in disarray, and Fal'Cie run on internal Crystals and the power of Gods. Hope achieves a Frankensteinian achievement of building one better than the ones that Lindzei made by slapping bits and pieces of them together, in spite of the fact there is no guide to doing this, and no reason to believe humanity should have the slightest inkling on how Fal'Cie work (considering FFXIII never even bothers to explain to the player what a Fal'Cie really is!). ADAM's memory modules are bafflingly taken from the Fal'Cie Eden. Now, I'm no computer engineer, but a quick google search of the term "Memory Module" reveals that it refers to a computer's memory (NO REALLY?) and therefore a part analogous to a portion of the human brain (unless suddenly we store memories in our buttocks). Hope takes the memory of the being who killed his mother and builds a God-Machine out of it. Even though he spent all that time fighting to free humanity from God-Machines. That this is all hilariously out of character for any party member in FFXIII is beyond dispute. It's like if Cloud had suddenly started infusing JENOVA cells into clones after FFVII under the excuse of "it's totally good for humanity!" because it goes against everything he fought for and learned in VII. This cannot be a simpler concept to grasp.

Lightning's service to Etro is as compulsory as was her service to Barthandelus, and yet she serves the one willingly in spite of fighting the other to the bitter end. You don't see Yuna joining New Yevon in X-2 or Ashe establishing a reign based on the Occuria's power, do you? No? Because it's just running in circles.

And that really, really, really is all that can be and will be said by me on this topic.
 

Holykael1

Banned
This is not a valid argument. Lightning has arms and legs and yes, I assume that they work like arms and legs do. A machine has a memory module and I assume it works like a memory module does. She rides a train and I assume that "train" means the same fucking thing because why call it a fucking train if it doesn't work like a fucking train does?

You are free to hide behind your bullshit excuse of "BUT MAGIC" but know that that's all it is: a pathetic, miserable, infantile defense which nobody, yourself included, is fooled by.

A dog is a dog is a dog. A memory module is a memory module is a memory module. A boy is a boy is a boy. The presence of magic does not negate the existence of logic anywhere but in your head, and even then I doubt you believe what you're trying to sell here.

But permit me, for one final time, FF GAF, to put these nails where they must be and then move on with the topic. I apologize to the numerous, silent voices who find this lengthy back and forth reprehensible.

What follows are spoilers for Final Fantasy XIII and its sequel.

Point the First: The Crystal Pillar and Cocoon could not under any circumstances have fallen. Not should. Could. Disregard the fact that you actively prevent every single thing that should cause that pillar to fall for a moment and just consider the basic, physical problems of the matter. According to Mohs' hardness scale Quartz is 7th hardest form of stone, behind Topaz, Corundum and Diamond. I'm discarding some kinds of crystal from the discussion, such as salt and ice, because it's the height of absurdity to expect that that is what formed the crystal pillar. A quick search of Wikipedia reveals that CRYSTAL IS RESISTANT TO WEATHER-BASED EROSION. Now, unless the skies of Pulse are fucking ACIDIC, the rain is barely going to do anything in 500 years! In fact, there are quartz hills in Britain that have lasted 10,000 years! For those of you doing the math, 20 times longer than FFXIII and with nary a change in formation. So no, natural erosion would not weaken the crystal shell of Cocoon in 500 years. Note further that the actual shell of Cocoon was in the Sky over Pulse for 13,000 years and the only damage it had taken was when it was directly attacked by Ragnarok, the same being who had formed the structure which now upheld it. The argument that the absence of Fal'Cie allows for Cocoon to disintegrate doesn't hold up because if that were true what need would Barthandelus have had for knocking it from the sky? Why was so much of it still visibly intact as late as 400 AF? Sometimes I swear people who say "it eroded!" have no idea how erosion actually works. Toriyama clearly did not. And for the sake of argument, "BUT MAGIC" doesn't help us either, since "MAGICAL RAIN REWRITING THE PRINCIPLES OF EROSION" make no sense. Consider how long Oerba's structures are standing even though they're out in the open and not forged by the might of demi-Gods! If anything, the argument that magic is delaying erosion is the one to be made, and not the insipid contrary.

Point the Second: Hope cannot have studied to learn to do what he did. Nowhere in XIII do we have any indication that the Fal'Cie are leaving manuals on their operation, and it makes sense they wouldn't, since you know, the population of Cocoon is just livestock to them, and teaching them things about how to build a subservient version of themselves that humanity can control is entirely contrary to the entire goal of the Fal'Cie from the beginning of XIII's mythos onward. Furthermore, the world had ended, society was in disarray, and Fal'Cie run on internal Crystals and the power of Gods. Hope achieves a Frankensteinian achievement of building one better than the ones that Lindzei made by slapping bits and pieces of them together, in spite of the fact there is no guide to doing this, and no reason to believe humanity should have the slightest inkling on how Fal'Cie work (considering FFXIII never even bothers to explain to the player what a Fal'Cie really is!). ADAM's memory modules are bafflingly taken from the Fal'Cie Eden. Now, I'm no computer engineer, but a quick google search of the term "Memory Module" reveals that it refers to a computer's memory (NO REALLY?) and therefore a part analogous to a portion of the human brain (unless suddenly we store memories in our buttocks). Hope takes the memory of the being who killed his mother and builds a God-Machine out of it. Even though he spent all that time fighting to free humanity from God-Machines. That this is all hilariously out of character for any party member in FFXIII is beyond dispute. It's like if Cloud had suddenly started infusing JENOVA cells into clones after FFVII under the excuse of "it's totally good for humanity!" because it goes against everything he fought for and learned in VII. This cannot be a simpler concept to grasp.

Lightning's service to Etro is as compulsory as was her service to Barthandelus, and yet she serves the one willingly in spite of fighting the other to the bitter end. You don't see Yuna joining New Yevon in X-2 or Ashe establishing a reign based on the Occuria's power, do you? No? Because it's just running in circles.

And that really, really, really is all that can be and will be said by me on this topic.

I don't really want to discuss this any further, to be honest I am not a fan of your attitude but I will say a few last things. XIII/XIII-2 Spoilers ahead
1- Once again, I just don't agree with that approach that fictional worlds necessarily have to work under the same physics and scientific concepts of the real world. They can have certain basic foundations but they can also have their own as long as they are properly established and within XIII and XIII-2's internal established rules, the crystal pillar erosion is far from farfetched.
I guess this particular fight in FF6 completely denies everything that game accomplished, the game is utter trash according to your logic if we are using this as an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCAWW2PCvvA . The amount of absurdities in that fight alone should give you a field day, contradictions far more grave than anything related to mineral properties, hell we are talking basic physics principles that allow for the universe to even exist(gravity).
2- I think you severely missinterpreted the relevance of the so called Memory Modules, I edited my last post to explain my take on it. Your conclusions contrary to your belief are not actual fact because the game doesn't even give an inkling to suggest what you are saying. I will reiterate :
"Proto fal'Cie Adam (デミ・ファルシ=アダム, Demi Farushi Adamu?, lit. "Demi fal'Cie Adam") is a man-made fal'Cie from Final Fantasy XIII-2 made sentient with advanced AI."
The memory modules implanted in the Falcie were responsible for the physical tasks of the falcie itself, not it's motivations or sentience. The actual sentience was acquire through AI. Think of it like this, we have parts of our brains associated with reflexes and all sorts of other functional traits, that's what was implanted in the Proto Falcie.
3- Barthandelus was an "evil" bastard with completely cold and despicable methodologies. Etro is keeping the world safe and goddamn workeable, she is the entity that keeps the Chaos from fucking the world. I already said everything I had to say on this and you have yet to actually REFUTE my points instead of constantly stroking your own narrative as if it was matter of fact. I gave you reasons why it would be stupid for Lightning to reject becoming the knight of valhalla, WHY WOULD SHE DO THAT? JUST BECAUSE OH YEAH I CANT SERVE A GOD, GODS ARE AUTOMATICALLY EVIL, ONE MYTHOLOGICAL ENTITY CANT POSSIBLY BE GOOD NATURED(Why is Etro good natured? I already explained that a million times not gonna repeat myself)
 
Can't read the whole thing at this moment but I read the FFX entry.



I like how this is phrased. Simply calling it purely "rock paper scissors" is a little bit dishonest, but not entirely untrue. The expert grid allowing you to blur the lines of the preset roles is a welcome addition to further alleviate this.

Yeah, I feel like the game introduces plenty of enemies that actually require several team members working in concert to take down (like the early Zu fight in which it instructs you to use Wakka's Dark Attack on it in order to blind it), but there are SO DAMN MANY enemies that are there just to be one-hit killed (dogs, lizards, bees, birds, Evil Eyes, mushrooms, flans, elementals, helms/armored moles) that they tend to stand out in people's memories over the broader variety of tougher enemies. It doesn't help that even those tougher enemies are pretty easy for the most part; FFX is a game that doesn't really start ramping up any sort of random-battle challenge until you reach the Calm Lands.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
This is actually demonstrative of why I don't post in FF threads that much anymore, heh.

(Not badcrumble's post, btw. I need to read that when I finish up my paper, but I glanced at it and I'd like to make a post if I have the time)
 

Holykael1

Banned
This is actually demonstrative of why I don't post in FF threads that much anymore, heh.

(Not badcrumble's post, btw. I need to read that when I finish up my paper, but I glanced at it and I'd like to make a post if I have the time)

Im sorry if my "style" of arguing bothered you or offended you in some way. I can obviously take a hint. I never had any intention to rile anyone up. In fact I was enjoying discussing the games with people here, I thought that was the point.
If you think my attitude is negative in some way I would genuinely be interested to know why, I hold no ill intent towards anyone and Im always up to better myself if I realize I was in the wrong. Antagonizing others without explaining why can't be quite hurtful, even in the complete anonymous nature of the internet..
 

Wazzy

Banned
I think you both need to chill. I don't even see why you're both getting aggressive towards each other. :lol

Anyway almost done FF X woooooooo
 
Top Bottom