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[Rinoa]

There's absolutely no indication Zack and Aerith ended up together and later material disproves it. Not every game needs a complete happy ending and I prefer VII's to be bittersweet, even if I don't really like CloudxAerith.

Now, can that be your interpretation? Sure, but it's also up to the player to decide if Cloud chose Aerith.

As for VIII, I think there's a big difference when saying "whatever" and "I'm sorry" even if I think people exaggerate how much he uses whatever. Have you played the Japanese version?

Didn't FF7 AC show Aerith with Zack? Even though they're gone they're chilling together through the movie.

Yes I originally played the JP version on PSX about 3 times, got all the rare mags and ultimanias related to FF8, and most recently the vol2 with all the previously unreleased FF8 sketches. From what I know of the localisation team, they weren't going at it hamfistedly and more often than not, those 'changes' to translation that fans later discover are ones the team was specifically told to do by the same JP staff that made the game and characters. The JP staff knows english too, the diff is that localisation is more than translating word for word, it's about keeping a similar tone and feeling.

I made these page ages ago, but as you can guess I've only ever focused on changes to Rinoa
http://rinoa.nu/rinoa/dialogue5.php
http://rinoa.nu/rinoa/changes.php

 

[CorvoSol]

CorvoSol, that's a little reaching with personal interpretation and ignoring huge chunks of character development to put Tifa's character down and prop Aerith's up. The two women end up with their respective guys in the end, and happy, anyway. No need to pit them against each other.

Characters keeping secrets is a narrative device used on many mediums. It's the same reason Irvine in FF8 doesn't tell everyone they were all at Edea's orphanage in disc 1. It's also the same reason Aerith doesn't say anything about Zacks herself, when she had many chances since the moment she met Cloud. It has nothing to do with character and more to do with (bad) storytelling.

Irvine is keeping secrets cuz he's a biotch and I hate him and Aerith isn't keeping secrets. It's not Cloud's business to know about her dead boyfriend. It IS Tifa's business to tell Cloud about how messed up he is before he hands over the Black Materia to Sephiroth.

I'm not tryin' to prop one above the other, in fact, I'm aiming to do the opposite: neither one is above the other.

As to Zack and Aerith being together in the whole after life, they spend most of Maiden talkin' about Cloud. During which Aerith establishes that Cloud-Zack was fairly different from Zack-Zack.

 

[Wazzy]

I'll check out the links when I get the time but about the first part of your post regarding Zack/Aerith, they're hanging around because they're both there to help Cloud and stop Sephiroth. I would think it's because they're the two most important people to him.

Also isn't Aerith constantly with Cloud? I swear I remember she's always a part of him or something. I haven't watched AC in a long time(and don't plan too!) so I'm really unsure.

 

[rataven]

I'm sorry, but she takes it too far by Nibelheim. Not telling him while they're in Midgar I can believe, but after that she should've said SOMETHING. Tifa sat there, listened to Cloud's absolutely incorrect version of the Nibelheim incident, and said nothing. She knowingly lets the party follow someone who isn't alright in the head. Supposing she had a good reason to not say anything then, she should've said something in Gongaga. Both Aerith and Tifa react negatively to finding out that this is Zack's house and all, and where Aerith makes an offhand comment and is excused from not saying anything, it's because she doesn't want to talk about her dead boyfriend after just meeting his parents with her current boyfriend.

........

Holy analysis batman!

Though honestly, I could just repost what I said above. She holds back on telling him because she's afraid of how it will affect him. And what exactly is she even supposed to tell him? She knows something's wrong and that he isn't right in the head, but she doesn't know what exactly it is. She's not even entirely sure of the events herself. Remember, she was badly injured in Nibelheim too. She's piecing the story and the memories together in the lifestream along with Cloud, and finally seeing the events from his point of view. The real events, because Cloud is the only one who actually witnessed everything. Heck, IIRC, the lifestream is the first time she learns Cloud never made SOLDIER, and that he did fulfill his promise to protect her.

So sure, before the lifestream, she knows the guy's a whackjob, but she weighed the risk. Tell him he's a nutcase without knowing exactly what's making him that way, or keep up the charade for the benefit of his confidence and their objectives. It doesn't work out perfectly, but I don't think it's at all unreasonable.

And I'm neither here nor there with 'shipping', but in all honesty, the way the compilation is told, I never questioned that Aerith and Zack are having a wonderful time being dead together in the lifestream, and Tifa and Cloud go on to play house with each other and the kids. Everyone's happy, which VII doesn't have a whole lot of. It's a nice way to finally conclude the whole story.

 

[CorvoSol]

Holy analysis batman!

Though honestly, I could just repost what I said above. She holds back on telling him because she's afraid of how it will affect him. And what exactly is she even supposed to tell him? She knows something's wrong and that he isn't right in the head, but she doesn't know what exactly it is. She's not even entirely sure of the events herself. Remember, she was badly injured in Nibelheim too. She's piecing the story and the memories together in the lifestream along with Cloud, and finally seeing the events from his point of view. The real events, because Cloud is the only one who actually witnessed everything. Heck, IIRC, the lifestream is the first time she learns Cloud never made SOLDIER, and that he did fulfill his promise to protect her.

So sure, before the lifestream, she knows the guy's a whackjob, but she weighed the risk. Tell him he's a nutcase without knowing exactly what's making him that way, or keep up the charade for the benefit of his confidence and their objectives. It doesn't work out perfectly, but I don't think it's at all unreasonable.

And I'm neither here nor there with 'shipping', but in all honestly, the way the compilation is told, I never questioned that Aerith and Zack are having a wonderful time being dead together in the lifestream, and Tifa and Cloud go on to play house with each other and the kids. Everyone's happy, which VII doesn't have a whole lot of. It's a nice way to finally conclude the whole story.

Anything would have been better than flat out denying it as Sephiroth exploited it to gain the Black Materia.

Like, literally, anything. All she had to do at any point in the game to prevent that was go "Hey Cloud we need to talk about what happened in Nibelheim." and BOOM massive crisis averted.

 

[rataven]

Anything would have been better than flat out denying it as Sephiroth exploited it to gain the Black Materia.

Like, literally, anything. All she had to do at any point in the game to prevent that was go "Hey Cloud we need to talk about what happened in Nibelheim." and BOOM massive crisis averted.

But she doesn't even know what happened in Nibelheim. She doesn't know Cloud was the grunt that saved her. She only learns the whole truth during the Lifestream.

 

[Femmeworth]

XIII-2

The monster system seems decent. The lack of a compendium type system is unfortunate.

 

[Rinoa]

See, this is why people don't like "shipping talk". It takes a lot of cherry picking (interpretations of a fanservice novella that aint even in English while ignoring all the other novellas and bigger parts of the compilation, further to that ignoring full interviews and ultimanias), constant suspension of disbelief, and character demonization to get non-canon things to be plausible.

Basically everyone has to become a jerk and nothing makes sense in the grand scheme of things. Nothing but the pairing itself, of course.

BOOM massive crisis averted.

And then the game ends right where it begins.

 

[CorvoSol]

But she doesn't even know what happened in Nibelheim. She doesn't know Cloud was the grunt that saved her. She only learns the whole truth during the Lifestream.

She knows Cloud's story isn't true. She knows he didn't show up as a big hotshot. Which makes it that much more grounds for her to talk to him about it, because what she knows isn't enough to justify not wanting to make his head crazy.

See, this is why people don't like "shipping talk". It takes a lot of cherry picking (interpretations of a fanservice novella that aint even in English while ignoring all the other novellas and bigger parts of the compilation, further to that ignoring full interviews and ultimanias), constant suspension of disbelief, and character demonization to get non-canon things to be plausible.

Basically everyone has to become a jerk and nothing makes sense in the grand scheme of things. Nothing but the pairing itself, of course.

And then the game ends right where it begins.

Oh, come on. I'm almost certain I've made it clear I'm joking here. Remember how I brought up Yuffie as evil too? I'm joooooking. Tifa is great, and as of Crisis Core I've accepted Tifa x Cloud.

But I do think dismissing Aerith just because Zack is lame.

 

[rataven]

She knows Cloud's story isn't true. She knows he didn't show up as a big hotshot. Which makes it that much more grounds for her to talk to him about it, because what she knows isn't enough to justify not wanting to make his head crazy.

This should make it pretty clear -- Tifa doesn't know Cloud was at Nibelheim that day. Her memory (the correct one) is that Seph, Zack, and two grunts show up to mess around at the reactor. One of those grunts is Cloud, but Tifa never knows that. He doesn't reveal himself to her, due to being ashamed of not making SOLDIER.

So years later, when they're all chillin' in Kalm or where-ever it is that Cloud tells the story, and Tifa's hearing his memory of it (the incorrect one) she's thinking, "What the hell? You weren't there dude, how do you know what happened?", which freaks her out and makes her question her own memories. She only learns Cloud was there during the events of the Lifestream, and begins to understand where his memories (and his case of loony toons) comes from.

 

[Wazzy]

I'm looking through the script right now and Tifa knows the truth and is still hiding it. She admits she kept it from him because she thought he would leave.

Even as Sephiroth is telling Cloud the truth she still tries to keep it from him. The part's I'm referring to are really long but I can post them if needed.

 

[CorvoSol]

This should make it pretty clear -- Tifa doesn't know Cloud was at Nibelheim that day. Her memory (the correct one) is that Seph, Zack, and two grunts show up to mess around at the reactor. One of those grunts is Cloud, but Tifa never knows that. He doesn't reveal himself to her, due to being ashamed of not making SOLDIER.

So years later, when they're all chillin' in Kalm or where-ever it is that Cloud tells the story, and Tifa's hearing his memory of it (the incorrect one) she's thinking, "What the hell? You weren't there dude, how do you know what happened?", which freaks her out and makes her question her own memories. She only learns Cloud was there during the events of the Lifestream, and begins to understand where his memories (and his case of loony toons) comes from.

Sephiroth mind rapes Cloud before that, and Tifa denounces everything he says as false. She was clearly not questioning her own memories.

 

[Narolf]

I call into question how much Tifa really cared. She was covering for Sephiroth all the way through Nibelheim. I suspect she was actually on his side.

She leaves Cloud in the dark for his own good.

 

[Wazzy]

She leaves Cloud in the dark for his own good.

No, she does it because she get's worried he'll leave her.

 

[CorvoSol]

She leaves Cloud in the dark for his own good.

Yeah, believing you're a Sephiroth Clone, begging Hojo for a serial number and handing over the Crystal of World Destruction are all totally healthy and good for you.

 

[anaron]

She leaves Cloud in the dark for his own good.

wut


like, appreciate it for being a character flaw or something relating to her "complexity" but there is no way in hale it was good for anyone in VII that the information was hidden.

 

[Narolf]

wut


like, appreciate it for being a character flaw or something relating to her "complexity" but there is no way in hale it was good for anyone in VII that the information was hidden.

Private joke!

No, she does it because she get's worried he'll leave her.

Reminds me that Aerith and Tifa barely talk with each other, actually.

 

[anaron]

this thread should become a shrine to the (literal) holy queen herself

she gave the world one of gaming's greatest segments, PRAISE HER LIGHT

 

[Narolf]

Infinite in mystery is the gift of the goddess
We seek it thus, and take it to the sky
Nipples form on the water’s surface
The wandering soul knows no rest​

 

[anaron]

Infinite in mystery is the gift of the goddess
We seek it thus, and take it to the sky
Nipples form on the water’s surface
The wandering soul knows no rest​

oh god, are you quoting Gackt's poem from that low-grade fanfic Crisis Core?

 

[Narolf]

Enhanced it, it's no longer Gackt's poem... or a fan-fic for that matter.

 

[CorvoSol]

this thread should become a shrine to the (literal) holy queen herself

she gave the world one of gaming's greatest segments, PRAISE HER LIGHT

Last thing we need is unhealthy worship of characters in here that aren't named Gilgamesh or Golbez.

Infinite in mystery is the gift of the goddess
We seek it thus, and take it to the sky
Nipples form on the water’s surface
The wandering soul knows no rest​

NIPPLES FORM ON THE WATERS SURFACE!

Please let that be unintentional. It's so much funnier if you didn't mean to write that.

 

[Narolf]

Must have been it, typed that one-handed.

 

[jaxword]

Tifa flat out says she was covering for Cloud.

There's the official scripted reasons (You may leave and get into trouble, etc.).

There's also interpretations of someone who would do that. Everyone's encountered situations where they could speak up but were afraid of the consequences. It would be ESPECIALLY nerve-wracking if you were in love with the person, too. Should you publicly contradict them? What if you're wrong? What if they will react badly? What if they harm themselves or others?

 

[anaron]

Last thing we need is unhealthy worship of characters in here that aren't named Gilgamesh or Golbez.

There should be a X-2 style spinoff with those boys. Just include Odin and FFX Shiva and we're golden.

 

[Wazzy]

Tifa flat out says she was covering for Cloud.

There's the official scripted reasons (You may leave and get into trouble, etc.).

There's also interpretations of someone who would do that. Everyone's encountered situations where they could speak up but were afraid of the consequences. It would be ESPECIALLY nerve-wracking if you were in love with the person, too. Should you publicly contradict them? What if you're wrong? What if they will react badly? What if they harm themselves or others?

She has to take some responsibility when the ramifications of her actions cause some of the games biggest issues.

Now, we could analyze her reasons and say she did them all for what you said above however, that still wouldn't excuse her not telling him, it just gives another perspective on her position and a little sympathy.

Narolf: Do they not? I swear they became pretty good friends.

 

[Narolf]

Most likely, but at no time they interact with each other, if I recall correctly. Then again Cloud remains at the center of the cast the whole time so I wouldn't call home on that.

 

[jaxword]

She has to take some responsibility when the ramifications of her actions cause some of the games biggest issues.

Now, we could analyze her reasons and say she did them all for what you said above however, that still wouldn't excuse her not telling him, it just gives another perspective on her position and a little sympathy.

Of course, this is also a facet of the writing and why people like it, she admits this was a mistake later on. She also takes responsibility and admits it to everyone that she can't cover for him anymore.

You don't have to excuse someone's actions to understand them. I think most people here would do the same thing if they had their crush/love doing something you think COULD be destructive but are unsure of what to say.

It's like Squall, some people think that by understanding the character and the reactions, i.e. that girls would like him and his general asshole attitude, it means approval.

Good writers can write characters and actions that aren't there for approval but are there to help the story flow.






Oh, and Tifa and Aerith become friends, but it's off-camera mostly. And it's also compressed; after all, it's a game storyline. The plot is both half a year long and a few days long, depending on your play experience.

 

[CorvoSol]

Tifa flat out says she was covering for Cloud.

There's the official scripted reasons (You may leave and get into trouble, etc.).

There's also interpretations of someone who would do that. Everyone's encountered situations where they could speak up but were afraid of the consequences. It would be ESPECIALLY nerve-wracking if you were in love with the person, too. Should you publicly contradict them? What if you're wrong? What if they will react badly? What if they harm themselves or others?

I'd say covering for him caused him to physically strike Aerith and almost kill her, so . . .

There should be a X-2 style spinoff with those boys. Just include Odin and FFX Shiva and we're golden.

Odin doesn't have a themesong, though. It has to be another big guy with a themesong.

FFMAN, starring Golbez, Gilgamesh, and Jecht, on their quest to be the save the Crystal of Manliness from KUJA. Other villains include Gogo (no gender specified) and Ultros (Cuz he hates muscle men).

Oh man, FF MAN would be the GOAT.

 

[anaron]

FFMAN, starring Golbez, Gilgamesh, and Jecht, on their quest to be the save the Crystal of Manliness from KUJA. Other villains include Gogo (no gender specified) and Ultros (Cuz he hates muscle men).

Oh man, FF MAN would be the GOAT.

somebody kickstart this future masterpiece, pls

 

[Narolf]

Chances are, not even the $450 mark will be hit for that.

 

[jaxword]

I'd say covering for him caused him to physically strike Aerith and almost kill her, so . . .

Yeah, that's the point. Tifa screwed up and no one's denying it, we're just talking about understanding why someone could do that.

Take a more extreme real life example: If you've ever had a friend or loved one go down a self-destructive path, it can be REALLY hard to talk to them about it. I don't even mean obvious stuff like drugs or alcohol, it can be something like dating someone they shouldn't be. It's VERY hard to touch that subject, because you run the risk of them cutting you off and thus you can't help them at all.

Some people say you have to let others make their mistakes and help them get back up.

Some people say you should intervene.

Some people say all sorts of things.

 

[CorvoSol]

Chances are, not even the $450 mark will be hit for that.

We'll include some Sasuke rip off character who wants to become a TRUE LEAD and suddenly people the net over will think its the best game ever years before we never release it.

Low blow, or lowest blow?

 

[Narolf]

Low blow, giggled quite a bit.

 

[Wazzy]

Low blowwwwww.

Also, Narolf, I had no idea that I was posting on Dissidia forums when you did. It even says you viewed my profile lol. I only remember Spyder because he mained Squall and MOD because of his Terra obssesion.

 

[anaron]

We'll include some Sasuke rip off character who wants to become a TRUE LEAD and suddenly people the net over will think its the best game ever years before we never release it.

Low blow, or lowest blow?

 

[Narolf]

Low blowwwwww.

It's no secret at this point anyway, someone debunked that the other day.

Also, Narolf, I had no idea that I was posting on Dissidia forums when you did. It even says you viewed my profile lol. I only remember Spyder because he mained Squall and MOD because of his Terra obssesion.

That's a funny coincidence.

Joined DF in October 2009, back when MOD was very active indeed. Spyder remains active to this day, he is just taking a break for now because of all the drama that took root at the beginning of the year.

 

[Wazzy]

Heh, I was a pretty awful poster. My username was Worf. I actually got into the LT debate on there too :lol I hate the LT and yet I always feel compelled to get involved.

I pretty much stopped posting there around the last character reveal for 012.

 

[Narolf]

Ah, so you were that Worf. I remember us speculating about the next FFVIII character, in Fall 2010. The discussion is no longer there because the forum got rollback a few months after.

About "being a terrible poster"... without stirring up the drama in this thread, I'll just say that the level of DF's discussion has always been pretty damn terrible, if not for Dissidia. Most people out there are more into animes, mangas and Persona than FF anyway. I can't think of a single time I've got to discuss FF in-depth there out of my 3+ years of participation, simply because people weren't into FF as much as I was. Needless to precise I've got to catch up for lost time as soon as I decided to be active on GAF. It's also due to the fact that people over there hate arguments and negativity, so that they aren't really fit for discussions.

 

[Negator]

In case you didn't know, there's going to be a big Final Fantasy marathon stream to help fight Diabetes.

It starts this afternoon. Check the schedule if interested.

Crystals for Life

 

[Narolf]

Interesting, thanks.

 

[jaxword]

In case you didn't know, there's going to be a big Final Fantasy marathon stream to help fight Diabetes.

It starts this afternoon. Check the schedule if interested.

Crystals for Life

That's a DAMN good idea.

 

[Emitan]

this thread should become a shrine to the (literal) holy queen herself

she gave the world one of gaming's greatest segments, PRAISE HER LIGHT

In the remake he will cosplay as Lightning

 

[Zoe]

As for FF8's NA translation, it's pretty much excellent. Some of the NA localization staff were close friends with the JP staff, plus the thing wasn't translated in random bits which made for great consistency across the game. The European lang ones are where the changes come in.

The floating in space scene was butchered.

 

[CorvoSol]

In the remake he will cosplay as Lightning

In her XIII-4 costume, no doubt.

 

[Rinoa]

The floating in space scene was butchered.

Which part or line?

 

[Zoe]

Which part or line?

The whole part. The American Squall came off as panicked and lacking confidence. The Japanese Squall was worried but strong. In particular this section:

Rinoa: "Squall...thank you. I heard your voice."

Squall: "...I can't believe it."

Rinoa: "Are we gonna make it?"

Squall: "Don't worry." (Out of fuel... Low on oxygen... What now? Die in space?
I'm so helpless... I can't even save Rinoa? Come on, think!)

Rinoa: "Squall...thank you. I heard your voice."

Squall: "Don't talk..."

Rinoa: "Will we be saved?"

Squall: "I'll save us" (Out of fuel... Low on oxygen... Will we become drifters in space? Will we get pulled in by gravity and burn up? Will I not be able to save Rinoa?)

I also didn't like that they just completely threw away Sophie's internal voice having an Osaka accent.

 

[Rinoa]

I guess that is one major change, "I can't believe it..." for "don't speak".

Squall's later line about dying in space/burning up seems to mirror Rinoa's earlier thoughts about becoming cosmic dust (also not in the english).

What would be an equivalent feel to Osaka accent though? Western?

I thought the caps for Fujin worked well with Kanji.

 

[Wazzy]

Narolf: Yeah I wasn't a fan of the people there. I won't even deny that I took a bit of a trollish attitude just because discussion was basically never allowed. I was also about 16-17 when I posted.

I had someone start a huge argument with me about VIII's rep. They didn't read my post properly and then started bashing me for being a fan of Rinoa even though I clearly said I wanted Seifer in. I made them look pretty bad after it ended and they ended up backing off. I think I screen capped the convo.

It's weird how defensive some FF fans get when you like certain characters.

 

[Narolf]

I was also about 16-17 when I posted.

You were 18 when you had that argument.

I had someone start a huge argument with me about VIII's rep. They didn't read my post properly and then started bashing me for being a fan of Rinoa even though I clearly said I wanted Seifer in. I made them look pretty bad after it ended and they ended up backing off. I think I screen capped the convo.

I do remember lurking it, pretty sure the member in question was Scott.

It's weird how defensive some FF fans get when you like certain characters.

Moreover in a forum about a fan-service game.

I won't even deny that I took a bit of a trollish attitude just because discussion was basically never allowed.

I understand where you're coming from since I do the same nowadays. Stopped taking the forum seriously ever since the drama I've told you about. A brief look at my posts-history would let you see that I do nothing but cracking jokes from now on. Even then, GAF remains much more fun. The mood here is really chillax in comparison to DF's, everyone is pretty nice. Hell, even the "trolls" that goof around are harmless if not cute.

Lastly, to keep things into context...

http://dissidiaforums.com/showthrea...NOT-Cancelled!&p=384678&viewfull=1#post384678​