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[Rats Off To Ya]

"Good, it's time for modern system" said many forum members in a forum ready to proclaim Persona 5 as the best jrpg ever.

/fuck this shit, I still want my ATB

Right? I'm not gonna sit here and say FF7 had a great combat system, but there are smart, modern ways to do turn based combat in 2017. It's a shame that Square Enix has decided to completely abandon it for the Final Fantasy series.

 

[The Last One]

So now Nomura fans are searching for a way to tell FF oldschool fans that Action RPG is superior.

It is so SAD.
People just enjoy the Fucking Games.

Besides this battle was started by ACTION FANS the day that GIF (the people running to play FF VII) was aired.

In reality VII Remake never never NEVER had a single chance to defeat VII oldschool.

And 92 always be superior to 83.

Remake VII is business.
OLDSCHOOL VII IS ART.

 

[jennetics]

I've been trying to say this but someone always pops up with XV.

Final Fantasy VII Remake is made by Square Enix. You know what else was made by Square Enix? Final Fantasy XV.

Square Enix = Square Enix. Therefore, Final Fantasy VII Remake = Final Fantasy XV duh.

Spoiler

I platinum'd and enjoyed the crap out of FFXV so I'm okay with VII being similar

Remake VII is business.
OLDSCHOOL VII IS ART.

I'm so glad this is a thing now

 

[RDreamer]

Right? I'm not gonna sit here and say FF7 had a great combat system, but there are smart, modern ways to do turn based combat in 2017. It's a shame that Square Enix has decided to completely abandon it for the Final Fantasy series.

It really saddens me to see them with their tail between their legs like this giving up. FF and Square Enix RPGs used to be a bastion of creativity with regard to battle systems. JRPGs as a whole were, and that's part of why I fell in love with the genre. For Square Enix to just give up, say fuck it, and do something else is disheartening. It's even more disheartening that their attempt hasn't really been up to par with other Action RPGs either.

 

[Reset]

Yes... it is a single controlled character game.

Lol. You can control multiple characters in a fight by swapping easily. And even if that's an issue, you can control your party members by mapping their skills on your button.

Going by your logic then even the original FFVII was a single character game since you had to wait for each character's gauge to fill up and then move on to the next character for their commands.

 

[Exentryk]

I wonder if playable party members will be make it.

Kind of hard to in ARPG.But a big part of FF7 is the party.

Star Ocean 5 did this recently (real time character switching with 6-7 characters), and it worked really well. So this game should also be able to pull it off just as well.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

So now Nomura fans are searching for a way to tell FF oldschool fans that Action RPG is superior.

Nomura fans are quickly becoming one of my least favorite fandoms on GAF. Don't get me wrong, I love Kingdom Hearts, but I don't want every JRPG to be Kingdom Hearts.

 

[ethomaz]

Lol. You can control multiple characters in a fight by swapping easily. And even if that's an issue, you can control your party members by mapping their skills on your button.

Going by your logic then even the original FFVII was a single character game since you had to wait for each character's gauge to fill up and then move on to the next character for their commands.

Swap characters didn't change the fact you are controlling one single character... you don't give command to all your characters in a action-JRPG, even if the others do nothing is because your programmed an AI to do nothing, there is no turn for all characters because while you are controlling the main the others needs some AI...

You know how I played the first Tales for SNES? I put all the others characters on the far back place with no action and controlled only the main char to kills enemies.

In a turn-based you choose every single action of all characters... you make your own strategy based in all characters and not based in AI... you have control.

All action JRPGs games (except when a second player control another character) are single character control... you issue control to one character and set predetermined AI for others even if you swap the character the control continue being the same (single control + AI for all others).

You have turns exactly to control all characters action in the game.

 

[AESplusF]

Nomura fans are quickly becoming one of my least favorite fandoms on GAF. Don't get me wrong, I love Kingdom Hearts, but I don't want every JRPG to be Kingdom Hearts.

Every fandom is my least favorite fandom on Neogaf, they're all trash.

 

[PAULINK]

may as well just make a brand new game.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Nomura fans are quickly becoming one of my least favorite fandoms on GAF. Don't get me wrong, I love Kingdom Hearts, but I don't want every JRPG to be Kingdom Hearts.

This has nothing to do with being a Nomura fan .
Some people want a different battle system and not turn base .
This is FF we talking about and while both turn base or action have there good and bad .
It will still be just press x to win cause most FF games brain dead easy but for a few bosses .

 

[Bolivar687]

may as well just make a brand new game.

.

 

[Akainu]

it was confirmed back at psx 2015 yes. somehow we still have people surprised.

It's ridiculous. I'm waiting for the person that wasn't even aware it was announced.

 

[Renmyra]

may as well just make a brand new game.

That's pretty much what they're doing. What's the point in making the same game, when the original is already the best game in the world?

 

[Ray Down]

may as well just make a brand new game.

They are .

 

[hydrophilic attack]

There's really not terribly much difference between the full on ATB and XII system and I don't think some of us naysayers would mind what that difference is. You seem to be saying if enemies and your party can attack at once, then it's command based? If so, then that's a change that I think is fine. I'm not entirely sure I separated that from ATB. It's an evolution of ATB. To me XII and XIII are evolutions of ATB. XV is an ARPG.

What I'm trying to say is that we should keep the terms we use for discussion stringent to avoid misunderstanding.

The discussion of real-time vs turn-based is about whether the different sides in a battle take turns to EXECUTE their commands or not.

Then there is a separate discussion about input where we're talking action-based vs command-based. In action-based RPGs, button presses directly lead to your character performing an action (dodge button, block button, attack button(s) and so on). In command-based RPGs there is another layer of abstraction in that every move is selected from a list of commands.

A lot of people jumble up these terms and believe that the discussion is about action-based vs turn-based, which is nonsense.

You can have

1. turn-based command RPGs (FFI to FFX, most Dragon Quest games, etc.)

2. real-time action RPGs (Kingdom Hearts, FFXV, Souls games)

3. real-time command RPGs (FFX-2, FFXII, FFXIII)

4. even turn-based action-RPGs (Valkyrie Profile)

So. I enjoy games from groups 2, 3 and 4, and occasionally well-designed games from group 1 (FFX)

From what you have said, it seems that you enjoy games from groups 1 and 3, but not really from group 2 (at least not as far as Final Fantasy is concerned)

In other words, you don't really seem to have a preference for turn-based over real-time but you do seem to have a preference for command-based over action-based

 

[AESplusF]

I like groups 1, 2, 3, and 4, so I guess I'm set. Oh and by the way hydro, you definitely mean Valkyria Chronicles, not Profile.

 

[RDreamer]

What I'm trying to say is that we should keep the terms we use for discussion stringent to avoid misunderstanding.

The discussion of real-time vs turn-based is about whether the different sides in a battle take turns to EXECUTE their commands or not.

Then there is a separate discussion about input where we're talking action-based vs command-based. In action-based RPGs, button presses directly lead to your character performing an action (dodge button, block button, attack button(s) and so on). In command-based RPGs there is another layer of abstraction in that every move is selected from a list of commands.

A lot of people jumble up these terms and believe that the discussion is about action-based vs turn-based, which is nonsense.

You can have

1. turn-based command RPGs (FFI to FFX, most Dragon Quest games, etc.)

2. real-time action RPGs (Kingdom Hearts, FFXV, Souls games)

3. real-time command RPGs (FFX-2, FFXII, FFXIII)

4. even turn-based action-RPGs (Valkyrie Profile)

So. I enjoy games from groups 2, 3 and 4, and occasionally well-designed games from group 1 (FFX)

From what you have said, it seems that you enjoy games from groups 1 and 3, but not really from group 2 (at least not as far as Final Fantasy is concerned)

In other words, you don't really seem to have a preference for turn-based over real-time but you do seem to have a preference for command-based over action-based

Ah, ok this makes sense. And yeah you're right, I tend to prefer games from 1 and 3 over 2. My biggest problem with Real Time Action is that I can't have control of my party members. I fell in love with JRPGs because of the party and the ability to control the group. There's a weird disconnect to me when I'm accounting for 1 out of 3 or even 1 out of 4 of the group. I prefer to just be solo at that point, but then I don't get the cool story party of the other characters either.

Really I think though that if you mashed up XII with XV you could find something that would be my favorite of all of them. Again, if you took the AI system, the ability to stop time and issue a command, and the ability to swap characters on a dime of Dragon Age Origins and FFXII and then made whatever character you were controlling more real time action-y then I'm good.

I don't want the non-real time action games to completely disappear though. I personally also got into JRPGs because it's a way to have a great epic story and do cool things while actually relaxing. I don't fucking want to test my goddamned reflexes all the time when I'm gaming. I just don't. I'm not the best at action games on top of that, but I can do it. It's more the relaxation that worries me. FFXV was both not relaxing and easy as shit/mindnumbingly boring as far as encounter variety. It was like the worst of both worlds to me. I found XIII to be creative and I didn't mind it but it was less relaxing. By the time they got to Lightning Returns, while I didn't hate the game, the battle system relied way more on reflexes and I don't want that sometimes.

 

[PeterBazooka]

For fucks sake squeenix... Why even call it a remake? Thank god theres still Dragon Quest.

 

[jstripes]

Here's the thing, guys.

Square is spending millions upon millions of dollars to make this game. Look at it. The game is deep inside AAA territory. They're going to need to sell a shit-ton of copies to justify that, and they're not gonna do it by pandering to ATB purists.

FFVII is fondly remembered by the mainstream and most of the core for the characters and scenario. Period. The gameplay itself falls into the realm of rose-coloured glasses for a whole lot of people. Many gamers who played it as a teen/kid, and younger gamers who want to see what the hype was about, would find ATB strangely rigid and not so engaging. Especially if there's a need to grind.


Also, let's not bring up Persona. It has a totally different following, and it's a totally different style of game. Plus P4, both versions, sold about 2 million copies worldwide. FFVII sold nearly 10 million on PS1 alone.

 

[Professor Beef]

For fucks sake squeenix... Why even call it a remake?

...because it is. Just because you don't like it doesn't change that it's a remake.

 

[LordKasual]

So now Nomura fans are searching for a way to tell FF oldschool fans that Action RPG is superior.

It is so SAD.
People just enjoy the Fucking Games.

Besides this battle was started by ACTION FANS the day that GIF (the people running to play FF VII) was aired.

In reality VII Remake never never NEVER had a single chance to defeat VII oldschool.

And 92 always be superior to 83.

Remake VII is business.
OLDSCHOOL VII IS ART.

dont stop

do not stop this



Also

Guys, what if i told you

that final fantasy 7 was a good game for more than its random encounters


???????????????????

 

[Via Purifico]

Some of you really need to chill out, "Nomura fans" lol come on guys it's ok to voice your displeasure at it being action based but none of us have even seen how it truly works yet.

It could go either way but we can't say it will be good or terrible until we get some proper footage.

 

[flintstryker]

I don't understand why square loves making action combats so much when they are so shit at it.

 

[Twookie]

this thread went well

Every fandom is my least favorite fandom on Neogaf, they're all trash.

+1

 

[jstripes]

Ah, ok this makes sense. And yeah you're right, I tend to prefer games from 1 and 3 over 2. My biggest problem with Real Time Action is that I can't have control of my party members. I fell in love with JRPGs because of the party and the ability to control the group. There's a weird disconnect to me when I'm accounting for 1 out of 3 or even 1 out of 4 of the group. I prefer to just be solo at that point, but then I don't get the cool story party of the other characters either.

I fell in love with JRPGs because there was a world to explore, characters to get to know and level up, and a story to unfold. Battle systems would make or break a game, but for me they were often a means to an end.

Chrono Trigger, for example, had a memorable battle system. FFVII? Plain old vanilla ATB.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

So now Nomura fans are searching for a way to tell FF oldschool fans that Action RPG is superior.

It is so SAD.
People just enjoy the Fucking Games.

Besides this battle was started by ACTION FANS the day that GIF (the people running to play FF VII) was aired.

In reality VII Remake never never NEVER had a single chance to defeat VII oldschool.

And 92 always be superior to 83.

Remake VII is business.
OLDSCHOOL VII IS ART.

you seem to know a lot about jrpg culture. taking turns are a huge part of it.

 

[flintstryker]

I love action rpgs just not when they are party based pretty sad to see square chasing this particular monkey when they are pretty good at making turn based combats

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Ah, ok this makes sense. And yeah you're right, I tend to prefer games from 1 and 3 over 2. My biggest problem with Real Time Action is that I can't have control of my party members. I fell in love with JRPGs because of the party and the ability to control the group. There's a weird disconnect to me when I'm accounting for 1 out of 3 or even 1 out of 4 of the group. I prefer to just be solo at that point, but then I don't get the cool story party of the other characters either.

Really I think though that if you mashed up XII with XV you could find something that would be my favorite of all of them. Again, if you took the AI system, the ability to stop time and issue a command, and the ability to swap characters on a dime of Dragon Age Origins and FFXII and then made whatever character you were controlling more real time action-y then I'm good.

I don't want the non-real time action games to completely disappear though. I personally also got into JRPGs because it's a way to have a great epic story and do cool things while actually relaxing. I don't fucking want to test my goddamned reflexes all the time when I'm gaming. I just don't. I'm not the best at action games on top of that, but I can do it. It's more the relaxation that worries me. FFXV was both not relaxing and easy as shit/mindnumbingly boring as far as encounter variety. It was like the worst of both worlds to me. I found XIII to be creative and I didn't mind it but it was less relaxing. By the time they got to Lightning Returns, while I didn't hate the game, the battle system relied way more on reflexes and I don't want that sometimes.

I agree that a weakness of action-based RPGs is that it's very difficult to design them so you can control more than one party member at a time. And I do agree that a gambit-style system would be one of the best possible solutions.

I see what you're saying about wanting to relax and how games requiring reflexes interferes with that for you. I don't feel the same way though. Games which require reflexes engage me more and allows me to enter flow, and so they are mentally relaxing for me as they make me forget about work and other shit for a while.

I like groups 1, 2, 3, and 4, so I guess I'm set. Oh and by the way hydro, you definitely mean Valkyria Chronicles, not Profile.

It's an edge case, but I did mean Valkyrie Profile. It's action-based because a character performs an action when you press their button. It's turn-based because while all of your characters may attack at once (making it an edge case) your party can't attack at the same time as the enemy party

Valkyria Chronicles may be a better, more clean example though

 

[Ooccoo]

hard pass after FFXV

Nomura is bad at FF. Make it stop

 

[Ray Down]

Every fandom is my least favorite fandom on Neogaf, they're all trash.

Except the OP fan base, we are the good people.

 

[TylersProphecy]

Here's the thing, guys.

Square is spending millions upon millions of dollars to make this game. Look at it. The game is deep inside AAA territory. They're going to need to sell a shit-ton of copies to justify that, and they're not gonna do it by pandering to ATB purists.

FFVII is fondly remembered by the mainstream and most of the core for the characters and scenario. Period. The gameplay itself falls into the realm of rose-coloured glasses for a whole lot of people. Many gamers who played it as a teen/kid, and younger gamers who want to see what the hype was about, would find ATB strangely rigid and not so engaging. Especially if there's a need to grind.


Also, let's not bring up Persona. It has a totally different following, and it's a totally different style of game. Plus P4, both versions, sold about 2 million copies worldwide. FFVII sold nearly 10 million on PS1 alone.

I love how you make this whole big point about how ATB won't sell, then end it all by pointing out how og ffvii sold nearly 10 million, in a time when jrpgs (and gaming as a whole) were faaaaaaar less mainstream.

Youu're making an assumption that ATB ffvii remake wouldn't sell on name alone.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Some of you really need to chill out, "Nomura fans" lol come on guys it's ok to voice your displeasure at it being action based but none of us have even seen how it truly works yet.

It could go either way but we can't say it will be good or terrible until we get some proper footage.

The funny part about accusing non-purists of being Nomura fans is that he had a pretty huge part in making the original game.

Some people are making parody posts though, making fun of blind Nomura hate (as did I a few pages back)

 

[Rising_Hei]

Go play the original if you aren't happy with this. Let the rest enjoy their new sweet.

 

[poodaddy]

Thank god, gimme something that rewards reflexes. FFXV's combat system is a step in the right direction, but do away with that hold button to complete combo's and hold button to dodge shit. Shit's gross, make me work for it. Even on hard FFXV is painfully easy. I can't wait to fight Emerald Weapon in an action based combat system; I want to hurt.

 

[Plywood]

Crazy idea, but maybe people should wait to see more of the gameplay.


or not w/e

 

[GLAMr]

It was clear since the first gameplay footage in late 2015 that it wouldn't be classic ATB. Where have you been? Still, I would wait for the next footage. Pretty sure it won't be action-based like Nier Automata or even FFXV and rather a more seamless, immediate evolution of ATB.

Also, you'd be saving 3 x $80 because it will be a trilogy of full games, releasing probably 2 years apart from each other.

Good point, I'll save heaps from each disk being a separate title, Phoenix Downs being only available in a real cash store and mini games like chocobo farming being DLC

 

[RaijinFY]

I love how you make this whole big point about how ATB won't sell, then end it all by pointing out how og ffvii sold nearly 10 million, in a time when jrpgs (and gaming as a whole) were faaaaaaar less mainstream.

Youu're making an assumption that ATB ffvii remake wouldn't sell on name alone.

It was 20y ago though...

 

[Ravage]

My biggest problem with Real Time Action is that I can't have control of my party members. I fell in love with JRPGs because of the party and the ability to control the group. There's a weird disconnect to me when I'm accounting for 1 out of 3 or even 1 out of 4 of the group. I prefer to just be solo at that point, but then I don't get the cool story party of the other characters either.

Really I think though that if you mashed up XII with XV you could find something that would be my favorite of all of them. Again, if you took the AI system, the ability to stop time and issue a command, and the ability to swap characters on a dime of Dragon Age Origins and FFXII and then made whatever character you were controlling more real time action-y then I'm good.

I might prefer ARPGs but I'm firmly on your side when it comes to control over your party members. In fact, I'm still mad about the removal of character switching from Versus.

XII-style gambits need to be standard for all SE ARPGs.

 

[ethomaz]

It was 20y ago though...

Pokémon released last year...

I need to check it sales but maybe it sold poor because the turn-based gameplay.

 

[massoluk]

Pokémon released last year...

Come on, that was a fad. A lightning in a bottle, we will be lucky if people talk about Pokemon by the end of this year.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

how exciting.

 

[TheContact]

while I knew this was the case, I was hoping for ATB. /sigh

 

[Meowster]

How do you guys think this games development is going? I can't shake off the feeling that we're looking at another Versus, for some reason. I hope I'm wrong.

This game is essentially Versus with a VII sheen. At least that is the impression I'm getting from everything released so far. Basically a do-over for Nomura wasting a decade doing nothing by getting to work in everything he wanted for Versus into VII. I don't think Kitase would allow Nomura to waste too much time though, unlike what happened with Versus. Kitase is pretty good about releasing things on a timely schedule.

 

[Forsaken82]

Did this video from last year that clearly showed an action based combat system just not exist?

 

[RaijinFY]

Pokémon released last year...

I need to check it sales but maybe it sold poor because the turn-based gameplay.

I agree... But i'm not into Pokémon at all (not because i think it's bad, but just not my cup of tea). To be honest i would have preferred a turn-based battle system but i wonder if it fits with S-E hollywood alike flashy stuff...

 

[phantasmic_glaive]

Its better then 12 and 13's combat by a huge margin

It's not better than 12's. Hell no.


Edit: I liked 13's tho , at least I can hope it's just as good.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Pokémon released last year...

I need to check it sales but maybe it sold poor because the turn-based gameplay.

Pokemon is the only full turn base RPGs that still sells great truth be told .
If we go on consoles most of the others are low and maybe DQ would be mid .

 

[ethomaz]

Pokemon is the only full turn base RPGs that still sells great truth be told .
If we go on consoles most of the others are low and maybe DQ would be mid .

Let's see how DQXI will sell...

It looks like turn-based is not selling because one of the three big franchises choose to use action-based.

If FFXV was turn-based then we won't have this conversation because it will sell 6+ million too.

Pokémon, Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy are the big JRPGs franchises that sells over 5 million even if they are turn-based no matter if 1997, 2010, 2017, 2020 or 2030.

 

[Furoba]

Really wish they went with a new ATB system. Anyway wait and see.