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Final Fantasy VII Remake: Nomura Confirms Combat is Action Based

RDreamer

Member
Pokemon is the only full turn base RPGs that still sells great truth be told .
If we go on consoles most of the others are low and maybe DQ would be mid .

But I'm not sure why we blame the battle system here. On top of the entire Japanese gaming industry having more than a rough time for an entire console generation, the flagship JRPG that was doing ATB/Turn Based style hasn't had a non-fucked up single player release in 16 years. XII was a bit ahead of its time and clearly had some issues and as such the story was unfinished, robbing it of a bit of sales. I personally love XIII, but I don't think it was necessarily the battle system that got it all the haters. And now we have XV selling well enough I suppose but there isn't a ton of evidence it's just obliterating XIII and after over a decade of being made there's some other weird circumstances there anyway so it's hard to judge.

I don't think any of us knows exactly what a modern system ATB/Turn Based system or even just an evolution of XII/XIII could sell for FF. What bothers me is that the VII remake feels like the perfect time to really try that and knock it out of the park. It could revive that sort of game in and of itself. Who knows. I guess we never will.
 
Let's see how DQXI will sell...

It looks like turn-based is not selling because one of the three big franchises choose to use action-based.

If FFXV was turn-based then we won't have this conversation because it will sell 6+ million too.

DQ is mid range .
It sells great in Japan and crap every where else .
I don't even see DQ getting to even 5 million .

Also you can't say if FFXV was turn base it would have sold 6+ million .
FFIX was turn base it did not sell 6 million so was FFXII .


But I'm not sure why we blame the battle system here. On top of the entire Japanese gaming industry having more than a rough time for an entire console generation, the flagship JRPG that was doing ATB/Turn Based style hasn't had a non-fucked up single player release in 16 years. XII was a bit ahead of its time and clearly had some issues and as such the story was unfinished, robbing it of a bit of sales. I personally love XIII, but I don't think it was necessarily the battle system that got it all the haters. And now we have XV selling well enough I suppose but there isn't a ton of evidence it's just obliterating XIII and after over a decade of being made there's some other weird circumstances there anyway so it's hard to judge.

I don't think any of us knows exactly what a modern system ATB/Turn Based system or even just an evolution of XII/XIII could sell for FF. What bothers me is that the VII remake feels like the perfect time to really try that and knock it out of the park. It could revive that sort of game in and of itself. Who knows. I guess we never will.

FFXV sold great but most of those sales form the west even more than normal .
SE thinks the west like action more than turn base and truth is most of the big RPG in the west are action base .
We will never knows as you said but i don't think going action base will hurt the remake.
 

ethomaz

Banned
DQ is mid range .
It sells great in Japan and crap every where else .
I don't even see DQ getting to even 5 million .

Also you can't say if FFXV was turn base it would have sold 6+ million .
FFIX was turn base it did not sell 6 million so was FFXII .
In one platform.

Without XB1 sales FFXV was below 6m too... but you can be sure FFXII will be over 6m after this year.

DQ just don't get more sales because they didn't release the dam game in west (even SE admitted it was a mistake not release the games here and because that the sales are Japan focused only).
 

Lindsay

Dot Hacked
Lame!

Dunno what else ta say. Crisis Core was fun enough but it was also ultra short and wasn't designed ta have any party members. Lotsa materia fun nerfs incoming, plus lotsa mindless button mashing~
 

Traxtech

Member
I'm a huge sucker for turn based.

Wouldn't it be easy enough to script it in to be command ATB based but have the option for action mode? The mobs could move around and what not but the players could "return" to random spots on the battle field at a proximity away from the enemy just hit, kind of like ff13 was but not automated

I can dream i guess
 
In one platform.

Without XB1 sales FFXV was below 6m too... but you can be sure FFXII will be over 6m after this year.

Why are you all of sudden removing platforms ?
Plus it being one platform don't matter FFXII was on PS2 the best selling platform of all time.
Either way point still stand that at this current time pokemon is the only turn base RPG with big sales.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Why are you all of sudden removing platforms ?
Plus it being one platform don't matter FFXII was on PS2 the best selling platform of all time.
Yeap doesn't matter lol

FFIX possible break 6m after Steam and Android releases.

Of course it matters... you see how multiplatform games trend to sell more than exclusives.
 
Turn-based games sells today like it always sold.

The false narrative it didn't sell today is something ridiculous.

No the false narrative is choosing the out liner (Pokemon ) and saying turn base games sell great .
It's like me saying racing games sell great and using GT as a eg .
 

Riposte

Member
Really, really have to disagree with this. ATB is just as turn-based as, say, the FF10 or FFT charge time systems; it's not full-on "everyone moves once before anyone moves again" but essentially the only difference between the two is that FF10 forces you to Wait mode/ATB assumes that not acting within the first couple seconds is a deliberate Wait command.

Saying ATB is "just as turn-based" is a silly exaggeration that doesn't really work on face value. At the very least, it's a hybrid, thus less turn-based, than a game which "stops time" completely (i.e., turn-based in the tabletop sense, like Chess). The existence and prevalence of Wait mode both highlights this difference and shows it's not the best deciding factor in shaping the genre (including understanding what that genre is compared to other types of games, SRPGs in particular). Admittedly, this difference may be on more of a spectrum in effect (e.g., the actual combat speed and enemy scripting may make the "active time" pacing more or less meaningful).

FFX having more intricate turn order/"initiative" mechanics doesn't really change the fact that enemies are not "taking" their turn (sometimes multiple turns) while you "take" yours (playing around in menus) like in the typical ATB scenario. This chips away at the very concept of what a turn is, the clear division of player/character input. "Turn order", which you seem to be focusing on, without proper "turns" is simply a delay or time to act mechanic in a real-time system, albeit quite abstracted. It's been noted that the turn-based DNA is obvious in ATB, such as the specific actions not happening simultaneously, and I do think that's meaningful, but not so much as to transform this back into "turn-taking" (there would be argument if the whole game stopped during these actions, but even that's not the case); it's more of a matter of "priority", which is something that also exists in tabletop games where there is no turn-structure, but there is clear chain of events. When this abstraction of one action at a time is downplayed or even removed, as is the case with the later/last ATB games, it's still quite functionally similar. (The fact the FFXIII games are still considered ATB, roughly speaking, is key to my main point below.)

However, the point wasn't to pin down exactly what turn-based includes or excludes (and I certainly don't intend to say FFII is in a different genre than FFVI either, though I would for FFXV), it's highlighting the whole flawed idea that "JRPG" (or "Command RPG", etc.) and "turn-based" are synonymous to begin with. When people say "I wish it was turn-based" to some sort of "Action RPG", they are, at the very least, including elements that have nothing to do with turns (or "benefits" of being turn-based) - namely, the positioning and movement mechanics (the "football line-ups" seen prominently since the first FF) being simple or nonexistent. This stands in contrast to many types of tactical/strategy games before you even get into action games, and has been inherent to the traditional idea of the JRPG since they were first inspired by Wizardry. Without diving any further into the sort of confusion and lack of clarity this can cause, it's simply a bit moronic for turn-based to mean something other than turn-based, especially when the whole break out style of combat system in the series in question is advertising itself as not being a true turn-based system (active time is an awkward way of saying real-time).



To actually comment on the story in question: action game most often means very weak party/squad management. I hope they try to make improvements there.
 

ethomaz

Banned
No the false narrative is choosing the out liner (Pokemon ) and saying turn base games sell great .
It's like me saying racing games sell great and using GT .
No.

- Pokémon sell well.
- DQXI will possible to be the best selling DQ because you know it will be release on west (I hope).
- FF sales didn't spike after the action move intact FFXV turn-based should sell the same (SE even expected it to sell more if turn based).

Now please tell me the action-based JRPG that sells great??? Tell me these big action based JRPGs franchise that sells over 5m???
 
Ironically, Square Enix had a low projection for FFXV sales because it was an action RPG and they didnt know how the FF fanbase would react to that, and people think FFXV and FFVII remake are action RPGs because SE doesnt think turn based games are viable anymore.

If a Square Enix game is turn based, its because the lead designers want it to be, if its an action RPG its because the lead designs want it to be.
 
No.

- Pokémon sell well.
- DQXI will possible to be the best selling DQ because you know it will be release on west (I hope).
- FF sales didn't spike after the action move intact FFXV turn-based should sell the same (SE even expected it to sell more if turn based).

Now please tell me the action-based JRPG that sells great??? Tell me these big action based JRPGs franchise that sells over 5m???

You seem to be missing the point that SE going action base because they want big sales.
They want WRPG sales numbers which are all action base.
Also you seem to be forgetting that FFVIIR is a console game it has to make up most of it sales in the west .
FF sales grew in the west since it ship more than FFXIII at same point in time while losing half it sales in Japan .
So going action base did not hurt it .

Also where did SE say they expect it to sell more if it was turn base .
Since a open world turn base game sound crazy LOL.
 
You seem to be missing the point that SE going action base because they want big sales.
They want WRPG sales numbers which are all action base.
Also you seem to be forgetting that FFVIIR is a console game it has to make up most of it sales in the west .
FF sales grew in the west since it ship more than FFXIII at same point in time while losing half it sales in Japan .
So going action base did not hurt it .

Also where did SE say they expect it to sell more if it was turn base .
Since a open world turn base game sound crazy LOL.

Tabata said FFXV was given a lower sales projection because it was an action RPG and they were nervous about how the fanbase would respond to it.
 
Tabata said FFXV was given a lower sales projection because it was an action RPG and they were nervous about how the fanbase would respond to it.

Interesting even after doing so much to get western sales .

EDIT just read up on it .
Looks like Tabata bet paid off at least in the west .
 

Kuro

Member
Turn based is old news I hope mainline FF never returns to it. Its still fine for handheld games but people expect more out of a console RPG these days.
 

ethomaz

Banned
You seem to be missing the point that SE going action base because they want big sales.
They want WRPG sales numbers which are all action base.
Also you seem to be forgetting that FFVIIR is a console game it has to make up most of it sales in the west .
FF sales grew in the west since it ship more than FFXIII at same point in time while losing half it sales in Japan .
So going action base did not hurt it .

Also where did SE say they expect it to sell more if it was turn base .
Since a open world turn base game sound crazy LOL.
I guess you have no ideia what you are talking.

BTW open world is something FF had ages ago and it got lost after FFX... you know open world + turn based.
 

fester

Banned
Turn based is old news I hope mainline FF never returns to it. Its still fine for handheld games but people expect more out of a console RPG these days.

I expect turn based combat in my RPGs. If I want an action game, I'll buy a fucking action game. I have zero plans to return to any mainline Final Fantasy as long as they continue down this path of watered-down, uni-genre game development.
 
Fuck that. Square-Enix isn't getting dime one from me, even if this thing has the "FF7" designation. It was a deal breaker for me from the moment the remake was rumored to be jettisoning the original's turn-based system because reasons. Reading this confirmation just solidifies my stance on the game.

If Square-Enix decides that it wants to make all future Final Fantasy games action crap, that's fine. The series has been dead to me since FFXII 11 years ago, and I stopped giving Square-Enix money for Final Fantasy games after buying and subsequently selling FFXIII after less than 12 hours. Electing to poison older FF games by "reimagining" them as action RPGs is a bit harder to swallow.

I agree. I gave up on FF after XII. For them to completely change the gameplay of a classic like FF VII just to appeal to whiny people in which they can't handle it's classic gameplay, is outrageous in itself.

I hope this so-called "remake" bombs hard in sales & blows up in their faces.
 
Laughing at some of the post in this thread. Anyways like I said earlier I'm glad it's action based. I don't hate turn based combat but I don't prefer it. Combined with random battles and it becomes a chore.

One of the reason I haven't beaten some of the older FF games, including VII. Bought it on PS3, beat the first boss and just stopped playing it.

With this remake I'll finally be able to play through VII.

Definitely in the minority but FFXV is my favorite FF, so if the remake has an improved version of that battle system or KH combat, that's fine with me.
 

Jamaro85

Member
Sigh. I hope they at least come up with an innovative way to let us have the ability to issue commands to the party while hacking away in the action based system. I don't want to make any assumptions about how cover works here, but it better not be as lame and pointless as it was in FFXV (there was an abundance of resources that made it pointless to interrupt flow by using it). I also hope they balance the difficulty and resources provided to the player better than they did in FFXV. The game was way too damn easy.
 

ethomaz

Banned
I don't think people call that open world .
For certain that won't be call open in this current time.
It is open world and I don't see how FFVII open world it is different from FFXV open world.

- Both delivery a "open world" to explore (FFVII being way bigger).
- Both has cities and dungeons that you enter via the "open world".
- Both you can explore and go where you want (since you have the way to get there of course... you won't reach a flying city without something that fly).
- Boths has enemies in the "open world"... you will say but I can see enemies in FFXV while forget it was a choice to have random battles in FFVII (it could have enemies showing like others JRPGs).
- While FFVII didn't have quests... but a lot of JRPGs has quests exactly like FFXV in the "open world".

I can go on with what is equal in both... but the question is what make FFXV open world and FFVII not?

Tell me.
 
Ironically, Square Enix had a low projection for FFXV sales because it was an action RPG and they didnt know how the FF fanbase would react to that, and people think FFXV and FFVII remake are action RPGs because SE doesnt think turn based games are viable anymore.

If a Square Enix game is turn based, its because the lead designers want it to be, if its an action RPG its because the lead designs want it to be.

The best way to develop if you ask me. Don't try to force a dev into any particular box.
 

kamineko

Does his best thinking in the flying car
I let this go a while back

It's probably a smart business decision--I haven't been their target audience for a while now.
 
It is open world and I don't see how FFVII open world it is different from FFXV open world.

- Both delivery a "open world" to explore (FFVII being way bigger).
- Both has cities and dungeons that you enter via the "open world".
- Boths has enemies in the "open world"... you will say but I can see enemies in FFXV while forget it was a choice to have random battles in FFVII (it could have enemies showing like others JRPGs).
- While FFVII didn't have quests... a lot of JRPGs has quests exactly like FFXV in the "open world".

I can go on with what is equal in both... but the question is what make FFXV open world different from FFVII open world?

Tell me.

Truth is i forgot what we call open world back in the day.
So i admit to being wrong there if that is the case.

EDIT going and do some checking up
 
Every time i read something new about this remake it sounds worse and worse. If you're going to completely change fundamental aspects of the game, just make a brand new game. Don't call it a remake. The term 'remake' being attributed to whatever FFVII R ends up being, is very nearly a mislabel at this point.
 
Neither Fire Emblem nor Persona sell as much as a Final Fantasy entry does. FFVII Remake will run circles around both in terms of sales and mainstream appeal.

And I have no idea why people are comparing design blueprints of 3DS RPGs to FFVII Remake. Jesus Christ.

I'll take real JRPG games like The Legend of Heroes, Persona, Pokemon, Bravely Default, World of FF, Shin Megami Tensei, Dragon Quest & Fire Emblem with better gameplay over other JRPG games like FF XV & this so-called "remake" with terrible gameplay anyday of the week.
 

ethomaz

Banned
So now we got someone saying that linear-ass FF7 is open world now.

Well ok then.
FFXV is more linear than FFVII... just because you have optional "quests" in FFXV open world makes it different? You know No Ni Kuni (if I'm not wrong) has optional "quests" in the open world and it is a game like FFVII.

While there is no optional "quests" in FFVII... there are a lot of optional events, locations and dungeons... even more than FFXV.

So what is that linear-ass you are talking about?
 

2Shea

Member
Every time i read something new about this remake it sounds worse and worse. If you're going to completely change fundamental aspects of the game, just make a brand new game. Don't call it a remake. The term 'remake' being attributed to whatever FFVII R ends up being, is very nearly a mislabel at this point.

What you're looking for is basically a remaster, which they have stated from the beginning that this is not.

It is a complete remake, from the ground up, so of course it's going to have many differences, some larger than others. Just because it doesn't fit every single persons idea of what it "should be" doesn't change the fact that it can be good. It is in the hands of the original creators, shouldn't that give them license to do as they please?
 
FFXV is more linear than FFVII... just because you have optional "quests" in FFXV open world makes it different? You know No Ni Kuni (if I'm not wrong) has optional "quests" in the open world and it is a game like FFVII.

While there is no optional "quests" in FFVII... there are a lot of optional events, locations and dungeons... even more than FFXV.

So what is that linear-ass you are talking about?

Well ok then.
 

Ray Down

Banned
I'll take real JRPG games like The Legend of Heroes, Persona, Pokemon, Bravely Default, World of FF, Shin Megami Tensei, Dragon Quest & Fire Emblem with better gameplay over other JRPG games like FF XV & this so-called "remake" with terrible gameplay anyday of the week.

Not to get into the asinine convo about which is better or worse, but what makes action JRPGS not true?
 

Paracelsus

Member
The only two FF to be considerably close in terms of linearity are FFX and FFXIII.

FFX is protoFFXIII: corridor with a handful nooks and crannies to look for, a few insignificant towns along the way, Calm Lands (1) with stuff to do before the final stretch of the game. FFXIII just completely cut the towns out because they loved the scenario they wrote so much nothing would have to stand in its way, not even gameplay. It was you, the plot, the characters, a corridor and a button mashing battle system except for the boss battles.
 
Let me ask... you never played FFVII?

Beaten it several times. I'd never consider it open-world since it tells you exactly where to go next and leaves you with very little wiggle room to go exploring until you get the Highwind. Maybe earlier if you actual attempt to get a Gold Chocobo beforehand.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Beaten it several times. I'd never consider it open-world since it tells you exactly where to go next and leaves you with very little wiggle room to go exploring until you get the Highwind. Maybe earlier if you actual attempt to get a Gold Chocobo beforehand.
Same can be said for FFXV... that is my point... even so there are a lot of optional content to explore in FFVII and optional quests in FFXV.

I don't see how anybody can call one game linear or open world and the other not... they handle pretty similar this "open world" and the main "linear" quest.

FFX and FFXIII lost this "open world" characteristic that was common in the franchise.

Talking a bit FFVII Remake that way they are trying to go episodic tells me the game will lost the "open world" characteristic... I wish to be wrong.
 
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