Support NeoGAF

[WolfeTone]

Already done all that.

Spoiler

turns out there's a downed mine cart to smack that I missed

Ah right, misread your original comment. I thought you were just trying to get back into the place.

 

[potatohead]

Zodiac's fast forward redeems XII to unimaginable levels. The original game was a slog in every sense of the word. I'd probably put XIII over vanilla XII, and not because I prefer any of the systems in XIII. I like XII's gameplay a lot, but the fact is that most of the fights can be completely "simulated" (letting gambits do 100% of the work against trash mobs and weaker bosses), and having no option to skip it was just terrible. But now I can slap on 2x or 4x speed to get through the trash in the blink of an eye, and lower it back to normal speed for challenging fights where manual input is necessary. It makes the game 10x...no, 100x better than the original. It's a truly shocking improvement.

Jobs are also cool. I actually have some individualized gambits on characters instead of having basically the same setup on everyone due to a shared skill pool. Wish some of the stronger techniques were doled out a bit earlier in the game so my physical attackers have more to do, but it's whatever. But I guess I could always run a party that's heavier on spellcasters.

Vanilla XII was borderline trash tier for me just due to how long it took to do damn near anything in that game. I was down with nearly everything in vanilla XII on paper (barring the universal license board), but the execution was completely awry. Zodiac Age (well, IZJS, but whatever) is one of the strongest refinements I've seen an existing game receive.

Anyway, there's nothing practical that can be done to a XIII remaster that would change opinion like that. Maybe if story, scenario, and level design were completely reworked, but that's not happening.



Yep. Equipment is huuuuge in XII. Good equipment and licenses can make almost any character playable. The game can beaten at level 1.

Thats such a cop out reason you're basically saying the game is trash while admitting the mechanics are clearly good and your only problem was the relative tedium.

Not having a fast forward didn't make the game trash tier before what a joke and cop out excuse.

 

[Rad-]

I'm still curious, what are the benefits/disadvantages of making someone a mage early on vs. later as their 2nd job??

Still trying to decide if Fran should be an Archer or Red Mage first.

Depends on the mage. Red Mage is arguably the best first job there is. Dark is by far the strongest offensive spell you will have for a good while and Immobilize + Slow turns most harder fights into jokes (most enemies aren't immune to them and they have pretty good hit chance). Then after Leviathan he gets Aero and Cura etc.

 

[TheCed]

What would be the best match up for these classes?:

Vaan - Shikari
Balthier - Machinist
Fran - Monk
Basch - Bushi
Ashe - Knight
Penelo - Black Mage

Balthier is the worrst Machinist... Even if it would be the most fitting Job Lorewise.

 

[MogCakes]

I'd rather my nukes do 5-10% more damage than the cures do 5-10% more healing, so I feel Penelo and Ashe are optimal as offensive mages, and Fran is perfectly fine as a support mage (either WHM/MCH or WHM/TBM)

Fran's MAG can be maxed out just like Ashe or Penelo, so for endgame at least it doesn't matter quite so much.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Thats such a cop out reason you're basically saying the game is trash while admitting the mechanics are clearly good and your only problem was the relative tedium.

Not having a fast forward didn't make the game trash tier before what a joke and cop out excuse.

I enjoy building, configuring and deploying my AI death squad to murder everything in sight. I don't enjoy slowly watching them do it.

Fast forward is the number one feature a game with simulation elements should have.

 

[OrionX]

Early thoughts:

- I forgot how much I love Fran's voice. Balthier's as awesome as ever.

- Ashe is still the best FF princess.

- Being able to speed up battles makes them way more entertaining.

- Just realized that Vaan/Basch's initial relationship dynamic is kinda similar to Hope/Snow, except their conflict gets resolved in 5 minutes while Hope's lasts for about half of XIII. lol

 

[brainslug]

Okay, I've played about 7 hours now, just finished

Spoiler

Leviathan

. I'm actually enjoying the story a lot more than I remembered. Dialogue is surprisingly good too.

I was never a fan of the license system, but I think it's better now with the job system.

And the fast-forward option is so, so good. Makes overlong dungeons and grinding less of a chore.

 

[UpDownLeftRight]

Note to self... I'm not gonna be killing Zalera at level 30

 

[jackal27]

I'm sure it's been linked, but there's a spreadsheet out there that lets you change up job combinations and see all of the licenses you'll get for each.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...vC5yipu9Yfh0IZ6YE-mh_e59g/edit#gid=1059552339

You'll have to copy it to your own Google Drive to start editing.

Yes! I meant to link this. it helped me out sooooo much.

 

[BumRush]

Anyone who is still stumped with using each of the 12 jobs once at most optimization possible, I suggest giving this reddit post a read

Poster goes over why some jobs are too important to ignore and boils down which jobs are best fitted into the context of a party

Both of my 2 setups I planned for were actually in the recommended 15 job compositions that is in the post (see rule #5) because of the same reasons I had with the poster

12 job party optimization

Great link. Very helpful!

 

[Akai XIII]

Balthier is the worrst Machinist... Even if it would be the most fitting Job Lorewise.

...Awesome.

I might have to restart anyway, messed up Basch by unlocking 2 quickenings/mist attacks.

 

[SynthFetish]

Let's be real, a huge percentage of people in this thread either skipped by or straight up hated FF12 back then, but now we're talking about it being a misunderstood gem etc etc.

Same will happen with 13. The latest or near latest FF always gets shat on. I remember people loving 7 but hating 8, then loving 8 but hating 9. So on and so forth.

I remember people thinking X was too big of a departure with voice acting etc.

Like I said in my first post, 13 has a LOT of good going for it. Some bad, but so does every FF.

They'll make a 13 remaster and this OT for that game will be FULL of people talking about how much they appreciate it and are enjoying it, i guarantee. You could probably trace their post history to the original release and talking about how it's the worst thing ever.

WTF, game was solid when it launched and it's even better now. It's one of my favorites after 6 and 14.

 

[BumRush]

You'd prioritize the job combinations themselves over who specifically gets the jobs, correct? At least as far as regular non-endgame stuff is concerned...

 

[The Xtortionist]

You'd prioritize the job combinations themselves over who specifically gets the jobs, correct? At least as far as regular non-endgame stuff is concerned...

Yes. Certain characters have faster attack animations with specific weapon classes, but it's extremely minor and should only matter if you're extremely concerned with min-maxing. Shouldn't affect your ability to clear content at all.

 

[WolfeTone]

You'd prioritize the job combinations themselves over who specifically gets the jobs, correct? At least as far as regular non-endgame stuff is concerned...

That's what I've done. The job combos seem much more important than which characters get each combo. For assigning combos to specific characters, I generally followed the mages -> females, physical -> males since the female characters have higher magic stats.

 

[Bluenoser]

You'd prioritize the job combinations themselves over who specifically gets the jobs, correct? At least as far as regular non-endgame stuff is concerned...

Pretty much. Variances in stats can be overcome, but crap job combos can gimp your team.

 

[Auto_aim1]

I went with this;

Vaan - Shikari/Foebreaker
Balthier - Machinist/White Mage
Fran - Archer/Red Battle Mage
Basch - Knight/Time Battle Mage
Ashe - Bushi/Uhlan
Penelo - Monk/Black Mage

I think this is good according to that Reddit post.

 

[Curufinwe]

Let's be real, a huge percentage of people in this thread either skipped by or straight up hated FF12 back then, but now we're talking about it being a misunderstood gem etc etc.

Same will happen with 13. The latest or near latest FF always gets shat on. I remember people loving 7 but hating 8, then loving 8 but hating 9. So on and so forth.

I remember people thinking X was too big of a departure with voice acting etc.

Like I said in my first post, 13 has a LOT of good going for it. Some bad, but so does every FF.

They'll make a 13 remaster and this OT for that game will be FULL of people talking about how much they appreciate it and are enjoying it, i guarantee. You could probably trace their post history to the original release and talking about how it's the worst thing ever.

You're a long way from being real.

 

[Kensuke]

...Awesome.

I might have to restart anyway, messed up Basch by unlocking 2 quickenings/mist attacks.

'Worst Machnist' sounds more dramatic than it actually is. His animation speed while shooting is slightly slower with guns vs. other characters, but it's only like 0.2 seconds slower. Other weapons on other characters have the same compromise or worse. Lots of people here are picking Shikari/Foebreaker for Vaan even though he's slow with both Daggers/Ninja Swords and Axe/Hammers. You should only care about this you're looking at bleeding-edge optimization or if that character is your main DPS character.

 

[SprachBrooks]

Why is there a massive black bar at the bottom of the screen during cutscenes?

 

[Nista]

I can't settle on jobs and this thread isn't helping! For 100 responses, we have 100 different answers!

That's cause there isn't really one right answer, and that's what makes the job system fun. Everyone can do what they like, and for the most part you can muddle through. I'd say some of the hunts are the only reason you'd really want to worry about minmaxing too much.

 

[HawaiianDreads]

I went with this;

Vaan - Shikari/Foebreaker
Balthier - Machinist/White Mage
Fran - Archer/Red Battle Mage
Basch - Knight/Time Battle Mage
Ashe - Bushi/Uhlan
Penelo - Monk/Black Mage

I think this is good according to that Reddit post.

Switch Basch and Ashe around and that's the set up I'm aiming for.

 

[Vashetti]

Why is there a massive black bar at the bottom of the screen during cutscenes?

Space for subtitles, it was the same on PS2. Just the style they went for.

 

[Freeglader]

Why is there a massive black bar at the bottom of the screen during cutscenes?

I was curious about this too. I know that if you have subtitles turned on they all show up nicely in the black bar. Maybe this is something they weren't able to change from the original? ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Edit: hardcore beaten

 

[Nista]

Oh I searched the thread, but didn't find anything specific, did the Diamond Armlet mechanics change in this version at all? Should I be running around with it on the party leader at all times, or will I just be drowning in a sea of knots of rust for no benefit?

 

[SprachBrooks]

Space for subtitles, it was the same on PS2. Just the style they went for.

I was curious about this too. I know that if you have subtitles turned on they all show up nicely in the black bar. Maybe this is something they weren't able to change from the original? ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Edit: hardcore beaten

Bizarre choice, but thanks for answering!

 

[Akai XIII]

'Worst Machnist' sounds more dramatic than it actually is. His animation speed while shooting is slightly slower with guns vs. other characters, but it's only like 0.2 seconds slower. Other weapons on other characters have the same compromise or worse. Lots of people here are picking Shikari/Foebreaker for Vaan even though he's slow with both DaggersNinja Swords and Axe/Hammers. You should only care about this you're looking at bleeding-edge optimization or if that character is your main DPS character.

So this should be ok?:
Vaan - Shikari/Red Mage
Balthier - Machinist/White Mage
Fran - Monk/Foebreaker
Basch - Bushi/Uhlan
Ashe - Knight/Time Mage
Penelo - Black Mage/Archer

Or should I swap any of the second jobs?

 

[Kensuke]

So this should be ok?:
Vaan - Shikari/Red Mage
Balthier - Machinist/White Mage
Fran - Monk/Foebreaker
Basch - Bushi/Uhlan
Ashe - Knight/Time Mage
Penelo - Black Mage/Archer

Or should I swap any of the second jobs?

Absolutely. In fact, it's my favorite setup.

 

[Vashetti]

Bizarre choice, but thanks for answering!

If you have subtitles off and that's your preference, you may as well as well have them on for this game, otherwise you have a pointless black bar during cutscenes.

 

[Akai XIII]

Absolutely. In fact, it's my favorite setup.

Thanks

 

[SprachBrooks]

If you have subtitles off and that's your preference, you may as well as well have them on for this game, otherwise you have a pointless black bar during cutscenes.

Yep, I always use subtitles in games so the space isn't wasted. I was just curious.

 

[Red Blaster]

not seeing too many other red mage penelos...

 

[Modest Mauser]

Let's be real, a huge percentage of people in this thread either skipped by or straight up hated FF12 back then, but now we're talking about it being a misunderstood gem etc etc.

Same will happen with 13. The latest or near latest FF always gets shat on. I remember people loving 7 but hating 8, then loving 8 but hating 9. So on and so forth.

I remember people thinking X was too big of a departure with voice acting etc.

Like I said in my first post, 13 has a LOT of good going for it. Some bad, but so does every FF.

They'll make a 13 remaster and this OT for that game will be FULL of people talking about how much they appreciate it and are enjoying it, i guarantee. You could probably trace their post history to the original release and talking about how it's the worst thing ever.

I'd bet my account on this not happening unless the 13 remaster included extensive changes to the world, story and characters.

 

[SprachBrooks]

Let's be real, a huge percentage of people in this thread either skipped by or straight up hated FF12 back then, but now we're talking about it being a misunderstood gem etc etc.

Same will happen with 13. The latest or near latest FF always gets shat on. I remember people loving 7 but hating 8, then loving 8 but hating 9. So on and so forth.

I remember people thinking X was too big of a departure with voice acting etc.

Like I said in my first post, 13 has a LOT of good going for it. Some bad, but so does every FF.

They'll make a 13 remaster and this OT for that game will be FULL of people talking about how much they appreciate it and are enjoying it, i guarantee. You could probably trace their post history to the original release and talking about how it's the worst thing ever.

Nope––and whilst I didn't mind the linearity of XIII and enjoyed it on a gameplay level––it's definitely the least interesting mainline Final Fantasy they created and opinions on it would probably worsen than improve if they released a remastered version.

 

[AndersK]

Nope––and whilst I didn't mind the linearity of XIII and enjoyed it on a gameplay level––it's definitely the least interesting mainline Final Fantasy they created and opinions on it would probably worsen than improve if they released a remastered version.

That's the thing - I found it good. Okay. Decent. Not much hate here. But...it's Final Fantasy to the same extent a 2 dollar bottle of wine is wine. Technically, yeah, sure. In most other ways, not really.

 

[Ravage_Hydra]

Just got my Copy

Is there a list of the classes and which weapons they use.

Thanks In Advance

 

[Alej]

On the road to Bur-Omisace.

My team around level19:

Vaan = Shikari/TimeMage
Balthier = Machinist/Bushi + Belias
Fran = RedMage/Foebreaker
Bash = Archer/Monk
Ashe = WhiteMage/Knight
Penelo = Uhlan/BlackMage

I dunno if it is optimal, don't care about that, but this is powerful.

My gambits are done on the go too, i change anything when i need it. I'm pretty adaptative.

And i keep things simple. I'm doing pretty hard gambit triggers for expensive magic and very random techniques, and have a "i need to do that" mindset all the time.

And it feels godly to play.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Just got my Copy

Is there a list of the classes and which weapons they use.

Thanks In Advance

Knight - Swords/Greatswords
Monk - Poles
Time Mage - Crossbows
Foebreaker - Axes/Hammers
Archer - Bows
Black Mage - Staves
Bushi - Katanas
Shikari - Daggers/Ninja Swords
White Mage - Rods
Uhlan - Spears
Machinist - Guns/Hand Bombs
Red Mage - Greatswords/Maces

Think that's everything.

 

[Ravage_Hydra]

@The Xtortionist Thank you so much

 

[potatohead]

I enjoy building, configuring and deploying my AI death squad to murder everything in sight. I don't enjoy slowly watching them do it.

Fast forward is the number one feature a game with simulation elements should have.

And without it the game clearly sucks.

OK. I mean it's fine and everything, but I think you know how ridiculous that is being to say the game was ever trash without it.

Missing something you really wanted, sure.

 

[Brannon]

YES time to return to the Zodiac Age!

Oh? It's starting on Load Game? An easy fix!

*presses up once*

...









....























...





























....













..
























.....





















*cursor moves up*

...so this is how it's going to be huh. With the worst input lag since Perfect Dark Zero and Enslaved? We're doing this? We're doing THIS?

...fuck let's see how deep the lag goes...

 

[FlutterPuffs]

I actually havent felt any input lag, lol.

But I play on Wait mode, plus its an RPG, thankfully.

 

[Hippopuncher12]

...fuck let's see how deep the lag goes...

It's noticeable, but sheesh it isn't THAT bad.

 

[The Xtortionist]

edit - the input lag on the main menu is really bad. The party menu feels fine, and the battle menu is somewhere in-between, but nothing awful or anything. Just my experience.

And without it the game clearly sucks.

OK. I mean it's fine and everything, but I think you know how ridiculous that is being to say the game was ever trash without it.

Missing something you really wanted, sure.

For me, personally, the lack of fast forward was enough to kill the game. Frequently forcing the player to sit through slow fights that require no input and basically can't be lost is a huge problem. And it's a problem that exists nearly every moment of FFXII's gameplay over the course of 50+ hours.

 

[Einhandr]

I get some bizarre-ass lag where nothing happens at all for a good 30 seconds and then all of a sudden the game catches up and recognizes all the commands I had been mashing in those 30 seconds. Only game where I've experienced this.

 

[gattsu]

It's noticeable, but sheesh it isn't THAT bad.

Yeah, not nearly as bad as that. Already not noticing it after the first hour of playing.

 

[gattsu]

After much deliberation, thinking about this setup. Any feedback?

Vaan - Shikari/Foebreaker
Penelo - Machinist/White Mage
Baltheir - Monk/Uhlan
Fran - Knight/Time Mage
Ashe - Bushi/Black Mage
Basch - Archer/Red Mage

 

[Brannon]

It's noticeable, but sheesh it isn't THAT bad.

Let me have my eccentricities *scoff*

But yeah, now that I'm playing the game proper, it's not an unforgivable pap smear, just an annoyance that may pass. On the brighter side, I forgot how Star Wars as fuck this game can be, so it's time to lose hours once again.

 

[Kensuke]

After much deliberation, thinking about this setup. Any feedback?

Vaan - Shikari/Foebreaker
Penelo - Machinist/White Mage
Baltheir - Monk/Uhlan
Fran - Knight/Time Mage
Ashe - Bushi/Black Mage
Basch - Archer/Red Mage

Switch your Monk and Bushi to make both combinations a lot stronger.