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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn |OT3| LFT Full Relic and DL Required

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Effect

Member
Sub finally lapsed again and really can't bring myself to resub at the moment. Even after getting past some roadblocks. I was thinking of waiting for Patch 2.1 but then I realize the housing seems to be for free companies not something you can customize on an individual level. Unless I read wrong. That was something you could do early on in FFXI.

Now to find another game to fill the void in the evenings I guess. :(
 

DJIzana

Member
Sub finally lapsed again and really can't bring myself to resub at the moment. Even after getting past some roadblocks. I was thinking of waiting for Patch 2.1 but then I realize the housing seems to be for free companies not something you can customize on an individual level. Unless I read wrong. That was something you could do early on in FFXI.

Now to find another game to fill the void in the evenings I guess. :(

They plan to include this. Just not individual housing in patch 2.1. That will come at a later date.
 

Totakeke

Member
when does ot need snap aggro? last phases right?

Basically whichever phases that you can't kill the previous wave before the 1 minute limit is up (except for the 2nd phase which dreadnaught spawns while a set of soldier/knights is still up).

For my group it's the 4th, 5th and 6th phases. 4th phase spinner rook plus bugs spawn and usually we can't kill the bugs in time before the 5th phase dreadnaught is up. So I want to grab all the bugs plus one rook and group them up ASAP for them to be aoe'd. 5th phase you have one soldier and knight so you want to make sure that you can hold aggro on both adds with dps that's going all out on both, adjusting your aggro on how many phyiscal/magical dps you have. 6th phase there's one rook (tanked by dragoon), one soldier, one knight, and two bugs, so you need to run all over the room to grab them while holding them against healer aggro because they will likely be casting party heals with party members getting hit during the transition.

My paladin MT can't hold aggro (he doesn't have relic+1 too) in the 2nd phase and one of the two, knight and soldier, always aggro's the dps. While I have the same thing on the 5th phase and I can hold both on them while dps wails on them both.

So other than snap aggro for all out dps as soon as possible, snap aggro is also important on transitions because healers using aoe heals will easily take aggro off the tanks. Eos (scholar healing pet) in particular often aggros during transition and our scholar swapped in Selene until the last phase because Eos kept dying.

Of course, all this isn't absolutely necessary as long your healers can heal the people getting aggro'ed and not die themselves, but I think it really helps stabilizing the fight.
 

Shamdeo

Member
For those who were interested:

ibzu1Yj8ckL5vX.gif
 

Ken

Member
Basically whichever phases that you can't kill the previous wave before the 1 minute limit is up (except for the 2nd phase which dreadnaught spawns while a set of soldier/knights is still up).

For my group it's the 4th, 5th and 6th phases. 4th phase spinner rook plus bugs spawn and usually we can't kill the bugs in time before the 5th phase dreadnaught is up. So I want to grab all the bugs plus one rook and group them up ASAP for them to be aoe'd. 5th phase you have one soldier and knight so you want to make sure that you can hold aggro on both adds with dps that's going all out on both, adjusting your aggro on how many phyiscal/magical dps you have. 6th phase there's one rook (tanked by dragoon), one soldier, one knight, and two bugs, so you need to run all over the room to grab them while holding them against healer aggro because they will likely be casting party heals with party members getting hit during the transition.

My paladin MT can't hold aggro (he doesn't have relic+1 too) in the 2nd phase and one of the two, knight and soldier, always aggro's the dps. While I have the same thing on the 5th phase and I can hold both on them while dps wails on them both.

So other than snap aggro for all out dps as soon as possible, snap aggro is also important on transitions because healers using aoe heals will easily take aggro off the tanks. Eos (scholar pet) in particular often aggros during transition and our scholar swapped in Selene until the last phase because it kept dying. All this isn't absolutely necessary as long your healers can heal the people getting aggro'ed, but I think it really helps stabilizing the fight.

do you just use overpower on rooks spawn?
 

Totakeke

Member
do you just use overpower on rooks spawn?

I try to have ready my butcher's block combo-ed during the spawn and hit one of the rooks once, that's plenty enough for me to hold aggro, then I run around the room hopefully aggro'ing the bugs in 2-3 flashes. Once they are grouped together I use overpower.

Flash is still better at start because overpower is a cone and it's easy to miss hitting targets with aggro jumping around due to both proximity and healer aggro.
 

Kokonoe

Banned
They're going to have to make this game easier if I'm going to continue playing. No, not because I find the game difficult as even healing Braylox I find absolutely easy and have no issues with it. My issues stem from the majority of players just not being good enough to get by dungeons, them finding tanking far too difficult, them not doing enough DPS, them not healing appropriately.

I'm fully aware that casual players make up a huge portion of the money SE makes from this game, and if these casual players can't even get by, then something has to be done. I love a good challenge, but the only thing challenging me in this game right now is playing with other people that aren't good. The majority.
 

Totakeke

Member
There's no reason for them to not make dungeons the primary way to grind levels, that will teach them how to get better rather than fate 1-49 without learning mechanics of their class. Some of the dungeons after 30 have challenging mechanics for new players.
 
These seem like nonsensical results to me, are you abstracting rapid synth as 250% with 50% chance as being equivalent to 125% with 100% chance perhaps ?

Because you can, and will, fail it 2-4 times in a row regularly when using it without steady hands, leaving both the above results as utter disasters where you are lucky to get your materials back.

Also, the two results are contradictory - why does depth 8 use rapid and 2x basic, where depth 9 uses rapid and 1x basic ? Those can't both be true.

Well I should start by saying that one of the reasons I decided to make this in the first place is because sometimes moves which are not obvious are actually the best. Strategy is a useful tool for humans, but less so for computers which can simply compute every single state in the space to get the best result.

This program is no exception. It makes almost 0 use of strategy. Instead, it just visualizes 8-10 moves ahead, or however many you tell it, and figures out which node will lead to the best expected result no matter how the random number generator behaves. This bolded part is important, because you point out a scenario where rapid synthesis or basic synthesis can fail N times in a row and you'll be scrounging to even save your materials. That's exactly where something like this tool excels. In fact, I would argue that it's almost impossible (or should be, if it's working correctly) to fail a synth with this tool, because at every step it can quantify exactly how at risk you are of failing, and it uses this to make tradeoffs between risk (quality) vs safety (progress).

As for your question about using Rapid Synthesis without Steady Hands, you're right that the probability of failing without Steady Hands is high. But again, there is no strategy involved here, only reading out extremely long sequences. Because of that, it's hard to argue from a rational standpoint why it makes the decisions it does, other than simply to say "because it found that move to be best". But, if I were to try to construct my own strategy based around using Rapid Synthesis first, it's easy to think of some logical reasons as to why it might make sense.

For example, investors will tell you that when investing your money, if you're going to need the money soon then put it in bonds. But if you have many years before you need the money, put it in riskier securities. This is probably the same principle at play. It's literally the first move. Its probability of failure at this point is virtually 0. It has the luxury to take a few risks in return for potentially large gain. If it doesn't work out, it will fall back on safer measures. But over a large number of synth, that strategy will probably prove to be better. It's worth pointing out that from a purely mathematical standpoint, Rapid Synthesis is actually better than 2 Basic Synthesis. This is because 2 Basic Synthesis will require 20 Durability, whereas 1 Rapid Synthesis requires only 10. Still though, it's difficult to understand the decisions a purely computational engine makes.


In regards to your last question, you're right that it doesn't make sense that with depth 8 it uses 1 Rapid and 2 Basic, and with Depth 9 it uses 1 Rapid and 1 Basic. It turns out that the Depth 8 was a copy/paste error, it also uses only 1 Rapid and 1 Basic. You can see this for yourself by downloading the alpha and playing through the default state by clicking Success/Normal every time.

BTW: I ran a little experiment where I found the provably optimal sequence of actions for the state that the app uses as default, and if you go through that one using all normal / succsses you end up with about 150 more quality. So that shows that the app isn't generating the absolute best possible sequence. Of course, this is expected since you're controlling how good you want the results to be with the depth factor in return for it taking less time. But I'm constantly finding improvements to the metric to make it more accurate, so my hope is that it will continue to get better.
 

Aeana

Member
For the more averagely-geared among us, here's what a WP speedrun looks like:



This was only our second attempt at the full run from beginning to end. I'm confident we can make it go faster with more practice.
Yeah, our gear is quite a bit worse than what others with faster times have, so I'm satisfied. I'm sure we can do better, but the best improvements will come when Tramain takes less damage and you DPS can do more damage, and I can DPS more rather than spamming heals too.

I think our time is a decent illustration of what's realistic with pre-Coil or very little AF2 gear.
 

Velk

Neo Member
Well I should start by saying that one of the reasons I decided to make this in the first place is because sometimes moves which are not obvious are actually the best. Strategy is a useful tool for humans, but less so for computers which can simply compute every single state in the space to get the best result.

This program is no exception. It makes almost 0 use of strategy. Instead, it just visualizes 8-10 moves ahead, or however many you tell it, and figures out which node will lead to the best expected result no matter how the random number generator behaves. This bolded part is important, because you point out a scenario where rapid synthesis or basic synthesis can fail N times in a row and you'll be scrounging to even save your materials.

Perhaps the problem is with my reading of what your output means. Is the listed quality of 86% an indication that it's prediction is that 86% of the time this set of steps will result in a high quality item, with X% being normal quality and y% being destroyed ?

Or is this instead the highest % chance of HQ that you could achieve at the end of the synthesis if all goes well ?

If it's the former, how does it weight outcomes where the item is destroyed vs outcomes where the item is HQ ?
 
Perhaps the problem is with my reading of what your output means. Is the listed quality of 86% an indication that it's prediction is that 86% of the time this set of steps will result in a high quality item, with X% being normal quality and y% being destroyed ?

Or is this instead the highest % chance of HQ that you could achieve at the end of the synthesis if all goes well ?

If it's the former, how does it weight outcomes where the item is destroyed vs outcomes where the item is HQ ?

It's not a prediction or a guess of anything. It's what actually happened when you play this sequence out. if it tried to guess, then as you mentioned originally, the RNG would just screw you and it would be all wrong. Instead, the way it works is like this:

It starts with the initial state, and looks at every possible legal move from that state. It then plays each move and, for each of those moves, also plays out every single one of the computer's moves. It repeats thsi process all the way down the move tree, essentially looking at EVERY possible outcome that might happen no matter what you do and no matter how the RNG plays out in response to your moves.


Fine, so assume it has this tree with 100 million nodes in it with every possible move sequence that might be played out, what then?. Starting from the bottom (which in a tree with max depth would be states which are either solved, i.e. progress = max_progress, or busted, i.e. durability = 0). It uses a function to assign a number to how "good" these states are. If you can read code, you can view the current implementation of that function here (Ctrl+F StateScore). TL;DR - States which are busted are worth 0. States which are not busted use a rather complex formula involving quality percent, cp, and your percent chance of breaking the synth.

It then "propogates" (magic handwaving here) these scores back up to the tree to the root, and the root simply has to look at which of its choices has the highest score to decide which branch is best. (I know I left out some detail on how it propagates the scores up the tree, but it's standard algorithm stuff, I can explain in more detail if you like).

So, in short, it's not guessing anything. The way you use it as follows: You start the app, enter your parameters. You hit Solve and wait. When it's done, you Alt+Tab over to the game and start your synth. You look at what it tells you to do, and you do that. You Alt+Tab back over to the app, and tell it what happened (fail/success + new condition). It tells you what to do next. You Alt+Tab back over to the game and do it. Repeat until done.

You are proceeding through the playback in the app in parallel to doing the synth live in the game. The next time you repeat the same synth, you'll probably get a different playback sequence because one of your actions will fail in a different place.

Also, it doesn't know anything about HQs. All it knows is that more quality is good, and that breaking a synth is unacceptable.
 

Totakeke

Member
Also, it doesn't know anything about HQs. All it knows is that more quality is good, and that breaking a synth is unacceptable.

Didn't really try your app yet, but if failing a synth (that's breaking right?) is unacceptable, why would you even put in rapid synth? As long you use rapid synth you have a chance of failing. Unless you're saying that the app calculates that even after you fail a rapid synth, you always have a fail proof way of completing the synth?
 

Ken

Member
For the more averagely-geared among us, here's what a WP speedrun looks like:

This was only our second attempt at the full run from beginning to end. I'm confident we can make it go faster with more practice.

sometimes i feel like i've made a mistake in the classes i chose to level since most of them aren't wanted in runs like this
 
Didn't really try your app yet, but if failing a synth (that's breaking right?) is unacceptable, why would you even put in rapid synth? As long you use rapid synth you have a chance of failing. Unless you're saying that the app calculates that even after you fail a rapid synth, you always have a fail proof way of completing the synth?

Yes, the latter. I'd be very surprised to see it using Rapid Synthesis, for example, when you have 10 Durability left. But that was the first move, you've got 70 Durability, and 240+ CP to use Manipulation or Master's Mend. The app of course isn't reasoning along these lines, it's just trying everything and choosing what led to the best score. I think it's just illustrating that the earlier you are in your synth, the more willing you should be to take risk.

In any case, my scoring function isn't perfect. Rapid Synthesis on the first move, it turns out, isn't actually the best choice. But it's pretty good, and even in the presence of localized mistakes, the app's ability to see 8-10 moves ahead I think will make it better than any human at getting good crafting results, and even moreso as I continue to improve the scoring metric.
 

JimPanzer

Member
how's endgame in this game? do I need a guild or can I just go with public raids?

thinking about purchasing this game but I do not feel the motivation to do any guild related stuf again (WoW got me fed up)
 

GorillaJu

Member
how's endgame in this game? do I need a guild or can I just go with public raids?

thinking about purchasing this game but I do not feel the motivation to do any guild related stuf again (WoW got me fed up)

You can definitely do public raids. Raids are only 8-man max at the moment, and while you'll be more successful and have a better shot at items with a pre-made group, you'll be able to make progress with pubs too.
 

Coldsun

Banned
how's endgame in this game? do I need a guild or can I just go with public raids?

thinking about purchasing this game but I do not feel the motivation to do any guild related stuf again (WoW got me fed up)

Everything outside of Titan Hard Mode and some of the Coil Turns is easily achievable through public raids.
 

KeRaSh

Member
My experience with DF Ifrit HM yesterday was very pleasant. The fight being pretty easy surely helps quite a bit but even then the time it took for me as a solo DPS to get into the fight was 9 minutes tops for all three attempts. Is it always that easy to get a group for the fight or was I just lucky?
 

Coldsun

Banned
My experience with DF Ifrit HM yesterday was very pleasant. The fight being pretty easy surely helps quite a bit but even then the time it took for me as a solo DPS to get into the fight was 9 minutes tops for all three attempts. Is it always that easy to get a group for the fight or was I just lucky?

Sounds about right. I'd be surprised if the average was ever past 15min.
 

KeRaSh

Member
Sounds about right. I'd be surprised if the average was ever past 15min.

Sweet. That makes farming for my Ifrit weapon so much more bearable. I'll probably max out my Myth Tomes before I get a drop though.
Yesterday I joined a group with two other DRGs in there. I was convinced that was the run that I'd see my first drop just for me to roll a -8 but it didn't drop.
Saw PLD/BLM/WAR drops so far.
 

arcticxdeath

Neo Member
The War is not a hybrid, it's a tank, through and through. PLD and WAR dps is extremely similar. The delivery of that dps is different (Wars have a lot of cooldowns that cause spikes).

...

Note that I'm literally talking about the final encounters in the game currently, Wars are fine (and very fun) for everything else, and fine for Coil if you're playing with a good FC/friends.

Over the course of acquiring phil/myth tokens for my SCH, I have come to hate WARs, and I cringe every time I see that blue axe instead of a blue shield. AF, Hoplite, DL, it makes no difference - I'm going to be healing that warrior tank 2-3x more than a paladin in basic AF.

Maybe they are all bad, maybe I am bad, but I always parse out of curiosity. When I have a PLD tank in AK, Eos heals while I do DPS equivalent to the tank and toss an Adloqium here or there. On average, Eos heals for 100k, while I heal for 50k. With a WAR in full DL, I average 200k healed and Eos 150k while doing next to no damage.

I don't like WARs. I hope they get buffed.
 

AmyS

Member
Haven't payed any attention whatsoever to FFXIV since the first release.

Just watched the trailers & some of the in-game footage of A Realm Reborn. Niiiice!

So seriously thinking of getting into it once the PS4 version hits.
 

orion434

Member
Whipped up my First Stack of Rose Gold Nuggets, 93 HQ / 6 Standard, on Ultros this would equate to ~ 300K Gil. I only miss the HQ when I don't hit 2 " Good" conditions, maybe switch to a CP-raising meal instead?

On Ultros seems there are no members in our Free Company that have all TradeCrafts to lv 50, the FC convinced me to aim for this goal with Jade Nephrite as all I have left is Armorer & Alchemist @ lv 25... when I get home from work later I'll have 46 Leves. Might be able to do 1 today and 1 tomorrow?

Got my 1st Craftsman Command Type IV Materia... feels good man.
 

Ferr986

Member
Damn...how are people leveling crafts that fast?

I had this week off from work and wanted to use it to level CRP to 50, but im still at 33 (I had it at 16 already, so I got 17 levels in 4 days).
I know about triple turn in leves but I still need HQ mats for HQing the recipes and farming them takes time (Im currently using the lvl 25 leve of Wlmut lumbers because I can farm them with my BTN). Do people really buy everything from the markets?
 

Tiduz

Eurogaime
ok so im lvl 50 DRG with Ifrit Spear now, i have 421 tomes, what the best DL gear to buy first? Contemplating Darklight Tassets?

edit: But the helmet looks way badass :x
 

frequency

Member
I just assumed we were talking about ARR, and not all ffxiv. Unless there was seasonal stuff in the beta?

I meant all of FFXIV in general. The ARR team is the same team that was on 1.2X. The overall design philosophy hasn't changed all that much even if the systems have. Seasonal events were actually more involved in 1.0 but some were disappointing then too (although getting a custom wallpaper was kind of cool). I'm just a little sad that they have so far been worse in ARR.

The summer event people dismissed as "it's so soon after launch so of course it would be a small thing!" But the Halloween event continues that trend. In fact, it's even less to do than the summer event.

Of course there are more important things to be working on right now than a seasonal event 1.5 months after release. I was just hoping it would be at least a little more flavourful and engaging than 15 minutes of running around town.

Also new seasonal equipment is still not eligible for Armoire storage. That makes me sad.

Tip for anyone doing the event: Don't buy the Wailing Spirit costume. The quest gives it to you and it's unique. So you have to discard the one you buy to actually do the quest. It's dumb.
 

Aeana

Member
Over the course of acquiring phil/myth tokens for my SCH, I have come to hate WARs, and I cringe every time I see that blue axe instead of a blue shield. AF, Hoplite, DL, it makes no difference - I'm going to be healing that warrior tank 2-3x more than a paladin in basic AF.

Maybe they are all bad, maybe I am bad, but I always parse out of curiosity. When I have a PLD tank in AK, Eos heals while I do DPS equivalent to the tank and toss an Adloqium here or there. On average, Eos heals for 100k, while I heal for 50k. With a WAR in full DL, I average 200k healed and Eos 150k while doing next to no damage.

I don't like WARs. I hope they get buffed.
So you don't like warriors because you have to heal them rather than let your fairy do the work while you DPS?
 

Baliis

Member
Damn...how are people leveling crafts that fast?

I had this week off from work and wanted to use it to level CRP to 50, but im still at 33 (I had it at 16 already, so I got 17 levels in 4 days).
I know about triple turn in leves but I still need HQ mats for HQing the recipes and farming them takes time (Im currently using the lvl 25 leve of Wlmut lumbers because I can farm them with my BTN). Do people really buy everything from the markets?

Do you have any cross class skills? They make HQing stuff a hundred times easier. If you farm all your mats and then need HQ mats to HQ, yea it will take forever, but if you just buy normals logs which are super cheap, then its not bad.
 

Ultrabum

Member
So you don't like warriors because you have to heal them rather than let your fairy do the work while you DPS?

I think he's saying he doesn't like war because they take more damage, therefore he can't dps as much, ultimately leading to longer runs.
 

Lily

Member
ok so im lvl 50 DRG with Ifrit Spear now, i have 421 tomes, what the best DL gear to buy first? Contemplating Darklight Tassets?

edit: But the helmet looks way badass :x

Just replace whatever is the lowest level item you have now. The chest and Legs are the biggest upgrade but you need 825 tomes for them.
 

frequency

Member
Jeez, some people are never satisfied

If you are referring to me I'm plenty satisfied with a lot of things. I'm sorry that being dissatisfied with one or two things isn't allowed. I'll note to never dislike things you like in the future.

If you are not referring to me then carry on. I'm dumb.
 

Ultrabum

Member
If you are referring to me, I'm plenty satisfied with a lot of things. I'm sorry that being dissatisfied with one or two things isn't allowed. I'll note to never dislike things you like in the future.

If you are not referring to me, then carry on. I'm dumb.

I'm not super impressed with the seasonal stuff either, but my expectations were practically 0 to begin with.

Honestly, I'd rather have them work more on fixing bugs in crystal tower than even bothering with seasonal events.
 

Ken

Member
Seasonal events continue to be disappointing.

I like the costume but that was short and not any different from all the other quests of run around click on this thing/person.

yeah it was pretty lame

talk to npc a
walk over to npc b 10 ft away
quest complete
 

Isaccard

Member
If you are referring to me I'm plenty satisfied with a lot of things. I'm sorry that being dissatisfied with one or two things isn't allowed. I'll note to never dislike things you like in the future.

If you are not referring to me then carry on. I'm dumb.

Carrying on

Edit: and yeah, seasonal was dumb
 
yeah it was pretty lame

talk to npc a
walk over to npc b 10 ft away
quest complete

That's their quest philosophy for most of the game unfortunately. :p

I hope over time, they introduce more entertaining questlines into the game. The class/job quests are an improvement over the basic/filler ones at least.
 
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