Relaxed Muscle
Member
Is a carry, if you never completed the content, but still manage to do it decently enough?
Actually a clear dosn't guarantee that they guy knows the deal, this potentially could lead to even more people buying clears...
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Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood |OT| Y'all Need to Calm Down
- Thread starter Ken
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Is a carry, if you never completed the content, but still manage to do it decently enough?
Actually a clear dosn't guarantee that they guy knows the deal, this potentially could lead to even more people buying clears...
It would take way longer if you did that. 51-60 is relatively easy with a random party. I've had no troubles with it during the past week.
Pyros_Eien
Member
?
Why wouldn't it be for whatever you want it to be?
Your argument that "farming parties should be a static" works the other way around "people who want to clear should be a static". It's purely subjective and is just your opinion. Some people don't mind helping newer players, some do, let people do whatever they want? But instead of having someone who's joining a PF that clearly states no new players when they're a new player and then having people leave as soon as they enter/on the first wipe, it's enforced before joining and wasting everyone's time. And yes not having cleared doesn't mean you're a worse player than someone who cleared, but that's not relevant really, you can't actually quantify skill.
I mean this isn't any different than arbitrary ilvl reqs for content. If you don't like it make a PF with requirements that you feel are appropriate, or join one. Complaining about one that has stupid requirements doesn't really mean anything though.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Yeah, in North America what this feature will do is make run sellers a mint.
I'm sure it's purpose will be well-understood and used properly in Japan. In North America, well, we all know how NA MMO communities are.
The checkbox is only problematic for people that want to join 'cleared only' parties without having cleared and without having to talk to the party lead first. It's essentially only a problem for people who consider themselves beyond mere learning parties, without having actually managed to complete the fight, and want to have their self-judgment overrule anybody else.
Learning PFs are valid. Farm PFs of "I need three tokens to get this last weapon and just want to get in, out, and done" are valid. It's entirely possible you can reach out to somebody with a "cleared only" party and get a personal exemption. Having a clear delineation is good for all involved, because nothing sours somebody on learning parties more than being confronted with somebody who insists they belong in a farm party for something they can't farm.
Even if you hate the snobby elitism of striving for efficiency, the checkbox is a positive because it lets you know the party lead is a massive jerk you want nothing to do with for elitism. Everyone wins!
SaintGalgo
Member
So what you're saying is that its purpose is to let bad players get carried through content by better players? Yeah, no. I'm saying this as someone who loves to help people learn.
I can't see how this is a bad thing at all. If anything, I think this option is actually going to make the PF look less intimidating for newer players.
So I've played the game during it's original 1.0 release, and played through most of A Realm Reborn, however I bought Heavensward but never even reached that content ^^"
Now I used to play it on PC, and seeing as I have a PS4 Pro and the there's the free trial, I was tempting to try it out on PS4 and see if it plays well, as I'm thinking about returning to the game.
Can someone explain to me about all this PS4 Pro patch I'm reading about? Is it not available to those that do not own a 4k TV or something?
Now I used to play it on PC, and seeing as I have a PS4 Pro and the there's the free trial, I was tempting to try it out on PS4 and see if it plays well, as I'm thinking about returning to the game.
Can someone explain to me about all this PS4 Pro patch I'm reading about? Is it not available to those that do not own a 4k TV or something?
Stone Ocean
Member
If you can do it decently enough why do you need people that have cleared in order to clear it?
Having a clear doesn't guarantee anything, yes, but when the only metric to try and get some people in a reasonable skill level is whether they've already cleared why is it so bad that people might want to go with players in the same situation? If people want to waste several million gil on clears let them, they'll just get kicked if they fuck up in farm parties.
Learning / Clear / Farm parties all have the right to exist.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Precisely, if you go to PF, is because you don't have time for a static. If you actually had time to be in a static, and could dedicate enough time for a static, you wouldn't have a problem clearing content.
Also is that hard to kick people who is not up to the task, cleared content or not? I feel ppl problems is "Oh god. we wiped once because of that guy! Can't wait for leader to kick him and get a replacement, so I'm leaving and potentially waste more time waiting for another party". Everything needs to be inmediate, effective and fast, so if you want that, PF is not a good tool to begin with...If you're that invested into it, Discord, Static, LS are way better tools, no need to dirty PF with that kind of toxicity.
Stone Ocean
Member
Yes, it is hard, because setting up a party takes time. Waiting till a party fills up only to find out someone has a bonus when the party specificed no bonus and wiping to a simple mechanic in the first phase of a fight is not fair to the players that have cleared.
By that mentality, why should PF have any requirements? What do you mean I can't join an i245 fight because I'm not i250? Why can't I join a party that just wants one BRD as a BRD? etc etc etc. Let the hardcore have their hardcore parties, let people wanting to learn have their learning parties, let the ERPers have their fucking listing asking for a tall elezen to fuck them in the ass, no one owes anyone anything and the game is set up so everyone can meet their equals and have fun in their own terms.
So I dragged some dumb jackass back to the game a few months into 3.4, and proceeded to rush through gearing so we could go kill a plane robot thing. This involved going into a Sophia learning PF with the new person, spending a few hours watching the group improve to the point of eventually clearing, and then getting the clear and parting ways with that group. Later, having gotten rid of the jackass' newbie bonus, I set up a farm PF with a requirement of "Please be able to farm." I get a /tell from some WAR I've never heard of with: "I've seen the whole fight but don't have a clear, can I join?"
He respects me enough to be up-front about the situation, which is a solid indicator he actually believes he knows the fight since he's not scared of me knowing he hasn't cleared. I tell him cool, but if it's a problem I'll ask him to leave. He joins, I explain to the farm party that I brought in an uncleared guy, if he's a problem he'll step out, but if anybody else objects pls go now. Nobody leaves.
We go in, we have like two early wipes, then we farm the thing. New guy gets his clear, his tokens, and eventually his weapon. The guy I set the party up for gets his shit. Everyone that joined the farm gets their promised farm. It's a good experience!
But the new guy did fuck up a little more than average, and we covered for it, and he got better over time.
Switch the situation to him sneaking into a farm party, bonus message popping up out of nowhere, and suddenly the entire party is side-eyeing each other looking for a liar. There's a base lack of respect there that makes the early wipes or mistakes proof of a problem. That version of things probably goes poorly.
So, like, I'm having a really hard time with the great evil being a button that lets people be clear about their party requirements and prevents you from lying your way in because it's essentially being upset that you can't disrespect 7 other people for your own personal glorification.
He respects me enough to be up-front about the situation, which is a solid indicator he actually believes he knows the fight since he's not scared of me knowing he hasn't cleared. I tell him cool, but if it's a problem I'll ask him to leave. He joins, I explain to the farm party that I brought in an uncleared guy, if he's a problem he'll step out, but if anybody else objects pls go now. Nobody leaves.
We go in, we have like two early wipes, then we farm the thing. New guy gets his clear, his tokens, and eventually his weapon. The guy I set the party up for gets his shit. Everyone that joined the farm gets their promised farm. It's a good experience!
But the new guy did fuck up a little more than average, and we covered for it, and he got better over time.
Switch the situation to him sneaking into a farm party, bonus message popping up out of nowhere, and suddenly the entire party is side-eyeing each other looking for a liar. There's a base lack of respect there that makes the early wipes or mistakes proof of a problem. That version of things probably goes poorly.
So, like, I'm having a really hard time with the great evil being a button that lets people be clear about their party requirements and prevents you from lying your way in because it's essentially being upset that you can't disrespect 7 other people for your own personal glorification.
Yes
Doing a dungeon/raid/primal with a new person gives everyone some extra tomestones as a reward for clearing with a new person present.
When people set up farm parties for only people who have already cleared, and then they enter a fight and see the bonus tome message, it makes it clear somebody in the party has not already cleared.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Because video and some experience is not enough sometimes, I remember my Garuda EX fight, were I had problems switching feather, someone gave me an advice (don't remember exactly what...) that wasn't on a video or is not something I could see on just trying alone, he cleared it, and kne some tricks for tank that general guide don't cover.
8 people that watched 20 guides and tried for a few hours could still miss many useful little details that can make o break a run.
Also, I'm actually against iLvl requirements, is used as some kind of stupid and random qualifier to clear content. As long as the person has the minimum required ilvl for that content should be enough.
Then how do people clear the content in the first place when there's no one who's cleared it? Generally once you've cleared a certain amount of Ex Primals or Savage, there's no reason you can't use those skills to figure out and to defeat another Trial entirely. And if groups struggle, there'll always be guides from other people soon enough.
Party Finder isn't specifically for helping people, nor should it be. It's also not specifically for farming either. It's for everything. Party Finder is exactly what it sounds like. Finding a party to suit your needs. You either join a party that has what you want. Or you create one to recruit people that suits your needs. You can't expact parties other people created to adhere to your requirements
Stone Ocean
Member
How are ilvl requirements random? It's the one objective metric to know how strong your character can be. If I want a higher DPS baseline what's wrong with wanting people with higher ilvls in my party?
im gonna have to disagree with the bold. pf has nothing to do with time for or lack of for a static. pf is for whatever the starter says the goal is.
statics usually have a time that they do runs of things at. if someone in a static has time off while the rest of the static is at work, does that mean that person has to wait for their static to get home to do content?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Is quite normal that DPS with lower ilvl usually are better than many other better geared people. Again is just an arbitrary scale that dosn't mean shit.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Do the ilvl requirements get as hilariously terrible as they do in WoW raid pugs?, as in "you need a higher ilvl than the actual loot that you can get from doing this raid or fuck off"
Stone Ocean
Member
What if there's a certain mechanic in a fight that can be ignored if you have enough HP or your healers are overgeared? What if you don't expect your DPS players to be bad and want to try skipping something?
It is also quite normal that the person that would do less damage than someone with lower gear can also be the person with lower gear, doing even less damage.
The higher your item level, the more you can mess up though. If I had the choice between instantly getting a 240 ilvl person or waiting 5 mins and getting a 260 ilvl person for... let's say A9S for example, I'd just wait. Obviously if you know the 240ilvl person is a good player then it's fine, but when creating groups and getting random people, there's just as high a chance that the 240 ilvl player is as bad as the 260 ilvl player, but at least the 260 ilvl person has a higher chance of contributing
Basically, we can't instantly know whether a person is good or bad without seeing them, so we have to assume the lower ilvl person is equal in skill to a higher one. And in that scenario, you always want a higher ilvl person.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
There's discord, LS, FC, etc...
I mean, If I was someone at a hardcore level and wanted to do something like farm stuff, PF is probably the last place I would look for.
I would rather farm tomes and dance with my 5€ emotes on my big FC house or whatever stuff hardcore players do...
Yes. very much so.
If I was worried about effectiveness, skipping phases and fast clears, parsing, etc....I wouldn't go PF in the first place. The problem is that ilvl dosn't guarantee all that, neither a clear checkbox, rather than an actual place filled with people that actually can skip phases, do good DPS and all that. There's more effective way to accomplish that, without splitting PF players and toxicity.
Stone Ocean
Member
People crucify Destiny for forcing people to form parties outside of the game, why should we force people to go to Discord to find other hardcore players? How do you expect people to form LS channels with hardcore players when they can't meet hardcore players in-game without prior knowledge of them?
Pyros_Eien
Member
That's a completely arbitrary statement. The fact is, a DPS with higher ilvl has higher damage potential than one with a lower ilvl. That is the only true fact about ilvl. Wether or not one is a better player than the other is entirely case by case. Yes sometimes someone with lower ilvl is a better player. Sometimes they're a worse player. There's no pattern to it, and especially not that lower ilvls are better than higher ilvls. That makes absolutely no sense. By definition, due to ilvl being tied to playtime, it's more likely that a person with higher ilvl is a better player because they've played longer. Not a guarantee, but definitely more likely, so if anything the contrary has more chances to be true. But very slightly so I would say since the time it takes to get higher ilvl isn't significant enough and more time doesn't necessarily equal more skill depending on how the time is used and how the gear acquired. Still has more chance to be true than the contrary.
See I'd go the other direction--what if you accept that a lot of the people who currently run the fight aren't going to be great, and you want to shore your group up against it?
A good player in trash gear will outperform a bad player in BiS. This is undisputed. But when you're pulling from the PF random pool, you can't control good or bad, you can just control the gear. And a bad player in BiS will outperform a bad player in last tier's gear, because that's how gear works. Better gear on your party also means your healers can be a little less on-the-ball, and in even patches when iLevel increase rises, higher iLevel requirements make it more likely people will show up on their mains instead of a job they don't know how to play that had an open slot in your PF, because alt jobs won't cross the threshold.
iLevel isn't a judgment of the player as a person, it's establishing the baseline of padding expected. If you well and truly believe you will kick ass above and beyond your iLevel, talk to the party lead. But the nature of PF is that short of trying to FFLogs every single person who joins, you're getting a grab-bag of skill. iLevel can mitigate some shortcomings there and increase odds of success.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
That's good, at least it's familiar then.
Stone Ocean
Member
It depends. Sometimes you'll meet someone who is obviously fucking delusional asking for higher ilvls than possible at the time but overall people stick to 5~15 ilvls over the requirement depending on what type of party it is.
pf is the first place a lot of people and myself go to, because good players are spread out on servers. having a way to prevent certain people from joining my party doesnt prevent them from making their own, or joining a learning. also, the only thing that hardcore players do is play the game at a much higher skill level.
GuitarGuruu
Member
Got tomorrow off and am ready to go, cannot wait! Bring on SB!
Not really but that's partly because the item levels don't scale as fast as they do in WoW. Like in Heavensward you'd have your fresh 60 content at ilvl 180 and at the end of Heavensward we were at 270. Meanwhile in Legion I hit 70 and was around 800-810 when starting heroics/mythic dungeons and now they're past 940 2 patches in?
So in XIV a casual player doesn't have as hard of a time keeping up, and people don't get so far ahead in ilvl that you see pugs with insane ilvl requirements.
Pyros_Eien
Member
Depends, thing to remember in XIV, not sure about wow since I haven't played since WotLK, is you can get almost equal ilvl gear from weekly capped tomes(tokens) than raid. You're 10ilvl under on most of everything(more on weapon I think until the half patch that upgrades the relic weapon upgrade closer to raid at that point or whatever). This tome gear is upgraded over time to keep following the raid progression.
Now for older raids, since people are only there for glamours/achievements/mounts/whatever, then yeah the requirements will be higher than what drops there, but generally speaking the requirements will be whatever is the weekly capped tome ilvl. So for example at the end of HW, the ilvl req for stuff was most often i260, which you could have gotten in a couple of months of farming the weekly(with those tomes being available for like 6months already). And the gear that dropped in say the 2nd raid dungeon was like 240 or whatever, so yeah the req was higher than the raid drops, but the req could be obtained via running easy content over time. Like you could literally just run 4man dungeons to get that gear.
Stone Ocean
Member
What you expect is your problem. What others expect is their problem. Let everyone deal with said problem in their own terms.
You're literally trying to justify splitting PF players - if you're a hardcore player trying to meet others too fucking bad - which creates a whole different type of toxicity and entitlement - the infamous "you don't pay my sub" types.
The only super ridiculous iLevel I remember seeing as a common thing in PF was the ever-increasing requirement for Bismarck EX learning parties.
And that was 100% because people sucked at the new rotations and were requiring upgraded law gear to get in to make up for being bad. Like, it was super transparent. It hasn't gotten quite that bad since, in part because even the less great players got a little more comfortable with their rotations.
And that was 100% because people sucked at the new rotations and were requiring upgraded law gear to get in to make up for being bad. Like, it was super transparent. It hasn't gotten quite that bad since, in part because even the less great players got a little more comfortable with their rotations.
Just like having a clear or no bonus doesn't guarantee a better player, having a higher ilevel doesn't mean you are better either. It does however give you less variables out of your control and a higher possibility of finding someone who performs better. Yes a low geared but good player will do more damage than a high geared but bad player. But at the same time a well geared and equally skilled good player will do more damage.
I'll use Zurvan farm parties as an example. If you didn't raid, the highest ilevel you could have was i260 with full Shire gear. Quite often you'd see some clear or farm parties have i262 requirementsz and I saw some people complain about the seemingly arbitrary number and that they couldn't join. However what that did is mean only those who raided and gained some i270 pieces could join said party. Again it didn't guarantee a good player, but the chances were higher in your favour.
There was this one time when I was learning A12s I created a party but didn't set a min iLevel. We went in and first pull the BLM kept dying. I didn't realise at first, but the problem was they just didn't have the gear for it. They didn't have the Hp/Def to survive. Ever since I always set a certain ilevel to avoid wasting my time.
I'll use Zurvan farm parties as an example. If you didn't raid, the highest ilevel you could have was i260 with full Shire gear. Quite often you'd see some clear or farm parties have i262 requirementsz and I saw some people complain about the seemingly arbitrary number and that they couldn't join. However what that did is mean only those who raided and gained some i270 pieces could join said party. Again it didn't guarantee a good player, but the chances were higher in your favour.
There was this one time when I was learning A12s I created a party but didn't set a min iLevel. We went in and first pull the BLM kept dying. I didn't realise at first, but the problem was they just didn't have the gear for it. They didn't have the Hp/Def to survive. Ever since I always set a certain ilevel to avoid wasting my time.
Stone Ocean
Member
Also yeah, HP checks are a thing. If I wanted to say, PUG pre nerf A6S then I should have the tools to make sure people with less than 18k HP can't possibly join.
Never had bad experiences in this... wait no, there was this one time I was grinding Dark Knight in Duty Finder when Heavensward first came out and my gear wasn't as good in a dungeon as my rando group causing agro chaos Healer was being an ass instead of understanding (I was broke from what little gear I could buy to get to the correct item
level).
that ilvl was reachable by people who didnt raid in alexander. getting gobtwines and coats was possible thanks to the 24 man raids and from hunts.
Im pretty sure that was mentioned in the patch notes that they would give exp.
Pyros_Eien
Member
Bismark EX also had a bunch of really "tight" DPS checks. I mean not tight tight, actually really loose if you knew what you were doing, but it's PF so obviously you can only count on one or two of the DPS to have any idea how to do their rotation properly. You had to beat the DPS check on the first back thing, and then right after beat the other DPS check on the 2snakes(while doing various mechanics that forced people to move around, which is the bane of bad damage dealers, especially the whole "CHANGE TARGET OR DIE"). And then the rest of the fight was still more or less a DPS check cause you had to constantly kill the adds fast enough to get time to DPS the boss, which you had a very limited amount of time to do(lel DPS check), and you only had 3phases or whatever before the enrage. DPS check for your DPS check, insert meme.
And as you pointed out, everyone having to learn new rotations. Well everyone but monks, since all the new skills were like oGCDs and shit.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
None of the 3 warring triad fights, was less than 250ilvl these days on my server. Even Sephirot which drops 220ilvl weapons.
Even several 260ilvl pf easily.
I remember being super glad I'd gotten through it in a preformed group (that had two bards!) since PF at the time was also on the "NO BARDS NO MACHINISTS NEED MAX DEEPS" thing. Watching the iLevel requirement climb to like, 20-30 over where we'd been, and watching them wholesale rule out physical ranged was a thing. And IIRC the adds DPS check got tighter the worse your tanks were, as the adds getting too close together would start speeding up the timer, so there were some artificial expectations depending on how capable the tanks were of swapping.
Largely because the worst parties weren't the hardcore player max damage gogogogo people; the requirements got crazier and more brutal the more 'casual' the players got.
The purpose of Party Finder is to form a party with like-minded players, nothing more, nothing less. Players should be free to put up whatever restrictions they want, whether you like it or not. I don't like some PF restrictions but I have the option to not join those parties. I joined the game in 3.4 and I cleared all of my HW trials with PF with the exception of Zurvan EX which I did with GAF but by the time I did that, I had seen the entire fight in learning parties. If you don't like shitty parties, make one yourself. That's always been my motto. I find no purpose in complaining about certain PFs that I can't join.
Stone Ocean
Member
And how many of those were people trying to speedkill those fights in order to farm mounts?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Most of the 260ilvl ones, clear parties were no lower than 250.