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Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood |OT| Y'all Need to Calm Down

iammeiam

Member
It's a mix of the whole package together and yeah that's another huge part of it.

Proper AF stack usage *max dps while having them when heals are needed*

Learning to trust your co healer and directly healing only when stuff from your kit needed or damage is too high on the whole party/split high dps on party memembers

Managing your fairy as the main healers co healer while you dps otherwise

This is pretty different from how most people view a healer, so while I understand why people feel sch is weak the class isn't and is very strong when all your management of it's tools are down.

If people want a more direct healing job and like the concept of shields I'll always point them in the direction of AST and there is nothing wrong with that to me.

This really just reads like a list of assumptions about how other healers collaborate that isn't super accurate, though. Mainhealer/offhealer has been kind of a dead concept for years (and I hope this is the tier somebody convinces FFLogs to start ranking healer pairings for combined DPS), something that's only more true now with Clerics dead in the dirt behind us and there's nothing prohibiting shifting the burden back and forth every GCD if needed. Especially since, in the current structure, WHM has highest potency per GCD and so if somebody's blowing what could be a DPS GCD on a heal, it should be the AST or the SCH first with WHM the one that only gets tapped in when necessary.

Like, the fairy adds a micro component the other healers don't have, but it's not Coil anymore and the actual allocation of healing GCDs is a lot more involved now than the old default "I am here to DPS, the fairy is the healer!" mindset.
 
A lot of SCH are QQ-ing because they went from the best healer hands down in HW ( in damage, in healing, in mitigation, in raid dmg contribution) to being still pretty damn good but you now have to work for it.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/HRBN1MzLPrCkTVbG#fight=7&type=damage-done and I didn't even look for the best group. I'm friends with the AST.

Look at this shit. SCH were so broken in HW that any competent group would take a SCH over an AST even with 20% ST balance and 10% aoe balance.
The SCH out healed an astro and only casted 5 GCD heals while still out dpsing them. An this is only possible with a SCH setup due to how broken the fairy was (and imo still is).

Just think about it, WHM were the worst healer in HW and AST had broken balance but it was still better to go WHM/SCH then WHM/AST.

So obvious SE had to address this. I think even in prog sch will be very strong if played right. Its just the skill flooring jumped a ton while WHM/AST skill flooring is literally the floor for midcore savage healers.
 

iammeiam

Member
Just think about it, WHM were the worst healer in HW and AST had broken balance but it was still better to go WHM/SCH then WHM/AST.

The fight you cherry-picked to prove your point seems to actually run counter to this. SCH was huge in A10S because a deployed super-adlo could let healers go HAM early on and do zero healing for an extended period. That's a super specific exploitation of a mechanic specific to that fight that propels SCH far ahead in a way that, say, A9S wouldn't.

I hate this next part because FFLogs search engine is garbage, but: Unless FFLogs is lying to me, this is the top WHM/AST speedkill for A10S. It is world 29th. This is the highest ranked SCH/WHM it finds, at world 85th. It is a full 25 seconds slower, because Balance is broken levels of stupid.

Like, SCH being OP is a thing. AST inheriting the OP healer mantle for SB isn't the worst thing on earth, since they can flex and work with the other two. But that doesn't negate that SCH is in a worse spot now.
 
The fight you cherry-picked to prove your point seems to actually run counter to this. SCH was huge in A10S because a deployed super-adlo could let healers go HAM early on and do zero healing for an extended period. That's a super specific exploitation of a mechanic specific to that fight that propels SCH far ahead in a way that, say, A9S wouldn't.

I hate this next part because FFLogs search engine is garbage, but: Unless FFLogs is lying to me, this is the top WHM/AST speedkill for A10S. It is world 29th. This is the highest ranked SCH/WHM it finds, at world 85th. It is a full 25 seconds slower, because Balance is broken levels of stupid.

Like, SCH being OP is a thing. AST inheriting the OP healer mantle for SB isn't the worst thing on earth, since they can flex and work with the other two. But that doesn't negate that SCH is in a worse spot now.

I didn't cherry pick anything. A10S is the most mana intensive fight in creator when it comes to speed clearing. I didn't choose a10s because of "exploitable mechanics". I chose it because its a fight that has almost near zero downtime.

Now the reason why you don't see SCH/WHM higher is obvious. Who the fuck would play that vs SCH/AST? Bokchoy or any top player isn't going to be like "hmm i did this well on AST, lets try whm now!"

Heres a12s, SCH still outhealing the AST.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/njAv23TmyfZWxLJR#fight=2&type=damage-done

A11s
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/3LGYc4wxqgTHRdr8#fight=7&type=damage-done

A9S
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/GWKpzATdk3wnfaFB#fight=41&type=damage-done

Clearly you're wrong. SCH fairy alone could do up to 30% of the total raid healing alone. SCH were broken in HW in every way.
 
I was pugging Omega through the Party Finder and we were doing good! Got two bosses in!

Then the tank got dumped by his girlfriend in real life mid-raid and it fucked everything up.

It was something.
 

iammeiam

Member
Clearly you're wrong. SCH fairy alone could do up to 30% of the total raid healing alone. SCH were broken in HW in every way.

Your claim: "SCH/WHM > AST/WHM"

Your proof: An AST/SCH parse where the SCH has higher healing throughput. And then a bunch of other AST/SCH parses. No SCH/WHM parses beating out AST/WHM.

The logic gap: WHM's contribution is literally throughput. Adding throughput to throughput accomplishes nothing which is literally the entire problem WHM faced in Creator. More throughput was pointless.

The contradicting evidence: Literally every fight in the tier has a WHM/AST pairing killing faster than the fastest SCH/WHM pairing. If SCH/WHM were so clearly superior, they'd have squeaked out a kill at least once faster than the far inferior WHM/AST.

Linking me throughput won't change that. SCH/AST was the optimal comp. WHM/AST was still better than SCH/WHM, because whatever throughput you lost from the fairy was negated by WHM having overkill throughput in the first place.

If you want me to be clearly wrong, bring some receipts for your actual claim of superiority. The entire problem with balance is that, in Creator, it was so stupidly broken it rendered any actual healing obsolete because AST/anything > 2x non-AST.
 

the_id

Member
Finally finished the MSQ of Stormblood!

It felt like I was playing the Final Fantasy version of Game of Thrones with the way the story unfolds and its grounded nature.

I thought I'd hate Lyse but towards the end her character develops into to be on par with other female final fantasy protagonist such as Terra, Garnet and Tifa.
 
Your claim: "SCH/WHM > AST/WHM"

Your proof: An AST/SCH parse where the SCH has higher healing throughput. And then a bunch of other AST/SCH parses. No SCH/WHM parses beating out AST/WHM.

The logic gap: WHM's contribution is literally throughput. Adding throughput to throughput accomplishes nothing which is literally the entire problem WHM faced in Creator. More throughput was pointless.

The contradicting evidence: Literally every fight in the tier has a WHM/AST pairing killing faster than the fastest SCH/WHM pairing. If SCH/WHM were so clearly superior, they'd have squeaked out a kill at least once faster than the far inferior WHM/AST.

Linking me throughput won't change that. SCH/AST was the optimal comp. WHM/AST was still better than SCH/WHM, because whatever throughput you lost from the fairy was negated by WHM having overkill throughput in the first place.

If you want me to be clearly wrong, bring some receipts for your actual claim of superiority. The entire problem with balance is that, in Creator, it was so stupidly broken it rendered any actual healing obsolete because AST/anything > 2x non-AST.

There won't be any fflogs because any competent player at that lvl would quit whm and went ast. You can argue all you want but when all

You're making an argument that SCH/WHM doesn't bring something that AST/WHM does. When SCH/WHM brings superior healing/mitigation and allows both healers to dps. In a speed run group yeah its all about the balances, so the argument about AST/WHM vs WHM/SCH is stupid since none of those comp exist in a serious speed run comp.

if you had a choice between HW Noct AST/WHM vs WHM/SCH, the whm/sch group wins hands down due to all the tools that sch bring that are unique to the class. Balance is nice and all but its not the greastest thing in the world. Nor does it allow both healers to only cast less than 15-20 gcd heals a fight. What else does a noct ast bring? Collective? Disable? These are no where near close to the combined functions of fey wind, sacred, and super virus. And then the gap even wider when you bring in efficient healing with sch having access to rouse + whispering, indom, and lustrate.

I can't find the post but bok summarizes why sch was so broken in HW
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comm...an_fc_mate_who_thinks_that/ddvfjz7/?context=3

Lets analyze what HW sch brought. A fairy that does a mass amount of the raid healing via rouse + whispering, super virus, sacred soil, fey cov that provides raid wide magic def and fey illum ?

In HW the mandatory classes you have to had or else you were seriously gimping your raid was WAR/SCH. AST was nice to have but is no where close to importance as a SCH. I can tell you a vast majority of the top level players agree that SCH was straight up mandatory and they would rather have SCH/WHM than Noct AST/WHM.

Just out of curiosity, what is your experience in raiding in Creator?

edit
So yeah its a no brainer why sch got nerfed when it came to their efficient healing. It was just completely broken. AST healing is no where near close to where sch were in HW, the only thing ast need adjusted is balance.
 

Apoptomon

Member
Making DRG's AoE rotation actually interact with their class mechanic is a welcome change (If only they also stopped pretending DFD isn't a Jump), but doesn't really address the Eyes-falling-off issue (it does help maintain BotD though). Dragon Sight... We'll that depends on how far 12 yalms is.
Sometimes when reading complains about classes, I feel like the only one who liked 3.x melee-range-aoe-with-small-pets "warlock"-style Summoner.
 

iammeiam

Member
Just out of curiosity, what is your experience in raiding in Creator?

So this is where I'm gonna stop. You've moved goalposts repeatedly, ignored that I kicked the whole thing off saying SCH was OP but in a way that didn't matter for Creator, tried namedropping Bok repeatedly like that changes anything (it doesn't--the comp you'd prefer to take into unknown prog is not the same as the comp that best fits a faceroll tier with damage that barely tickles 80% of the time), and now we've moved to proving out qualifications. They don't matter. Either I have a point, or I don't, but I'm not getting into internet one-upmanship. The reality of the situation is that in content, WHM/AST was a much more effective healer pairing for Creator outside of bleeding edge prog than SCH/WHM. It happened. WHM/AST wasn't optimal, either, but you find better kill times with it because it was literally better suited for the kind of fights we got in Creator, which is the entire point.
 
So this is where I'm gonna stop. You've moved goalposts repeatedly, ignored that I kicked the whole thing off saying SCH was OP but in a way that didn't matter for Creator, tried namedropping Bok repeatedly like that changes anything (it doesn't--the comp you'd prefer to take into unknown prog is not the same as the comp that best fits a faceroll tier with damage that barely tickles 80% of the time), and now we've moved to proving out qualifications. They don't matter. Either I have a point, or I don't, but I'm not getting into internet one-upmanship. The reality of the situation is that in content, WHM/AST was a much more effective healer pairing for Creator outside of bleeding edge prog than SCH/WHM. It happened. WHM/AST wasn't optimal, either, but you find better kill times with it because it was literally better suited for the kind of fights we got in Creator, which is the entire point.

You don't have a point at all, you have no idea what you are talking about and are blind sided by "b-b-but the balance!". And what does "acknowledging SCH is OP but not in a way that mattered in Creator" even mean? Did I miss something where creator savage suddenly wasn't a relevant raid tier?

and lol at name dropping. Yaokay I guess I can't quote a recognized top healer's opinion that many other top healers also express as well. And its not like I don't know bok either soo? I guess you want me to name a nobody? And wait WHM/SCH was straight up better than Noct AST/WHM in almost every way, both in prog and in terms of optimization. You clearly focus way too much on the WHM in WHM/SCH and disregard all the benefits that a SCH brings to the table.

I'm done arguing this. First you said I cherry picked and chose a fight that sch "exploited" on and that it doesn't happen on fights like A9S then totally ignored that when proven wrong and basically said "lolcreator, the way sch being op doesn't matter" when you can clearly see having a sch minimizes GCD usages on heals considerably that no other healing comp without a sch can do.

You have no qualification, no proof to back up what you're saying, or even just a post/quote/anything from an established player that backs your claims. Your only "evidence" is looking up parses for speed kills for Noct AST/WHM vs WHM/SCH and totally disregarding that no speed run group is going to run either of those comps anyways unless they have to. And even then speed kills are such a small subset of raiding. WHM/SCH was easily better than Noct AST/WHM in both raid utility, healing power, mitigation and dps. The only thing N.AST /WHM excels in is having balance.
 

Fou-Lu

Member
I just bought Stormblood and a level boost to get Red Mage and get back into the game. I don't want to skip the story quests so I will play through those myself. I was level 30 from near launch of ARR, but haven't played much since. What should I know/do/find/unlock/see/etc aside from the storyline quests?
 

Thorgal

Member
I just bought Stormblood and a level boost to get Red Mage and get back into the game. I don't want to skip the story quests so I will play through those myself. I was level 30 from near launch of ARR, but haven't played much since. What should I know/do/find/unlock/see/etc aside from the storyline quests?

mostly main story quests and side quests with a + icon next to it which unlocks side dungeons and game functions
 
Y'all both need to walk away.

That said, asking for qualifications is fucking dumb.

The person you're arguing with is a hardcore raider. Will her opinion suddenly mean more if she beat alex on week 4 rather than 6?
 

Thorgal

Member
i just found out that if you used your LB to kill a boss it's animation also plays in GPOSE .

. we Dragonball Z now.

ffxiv_16072017_014110kvajn.png


ffxiv_16072017_014305pgz4z.png
 
Y'all both need to walk away.

That said, asking for qualifications is fucking dumb.

The person you're arguing with is a hardcore raider. Will her opinion suddenly mean more if she beat alex on week 4 rather than 6?

I accept that I was overly abrasive and I apologize for that. To answer your question, I do find qualifications do matter depending on the context. Its one thing to just parrot an idea without any experience of the matter. Its another to say they've experience and shown that it can be prove to be effective. I'm a bard main, i don't main healer. If they are a healer that has experience in high tier savage raiding then yes, what they say has more value to it because they have experience that I personally do not have. My only knowledge of healing is based off who I played with, who I've talked to and the info I read based off fflogs and theorycrafting. (I'm also a scrub casual that dicks around in PF with all sorts of job)

The whole argument is dumb anyways esp since it was in regards to HW and that was in the past. I apologize for being abrasive and condescending and did not intent to do that; and it should not have even gotten to that point to begin with.
 

iammeiam

Member
I'm argumentative by nature, and enjoy debate. I also try to cut myself off when I see it getting circular. Nothing personal, just when we're clearly getting nowhere I'm going to stop. And say so. Bluntly, as is my tradition.

I've spent a lot of time digging into where I think Creator failed and how specifically the design of the tier favored the ASTLogs padding phenomenon in a way that Gordias and Midas didn't; I try to avoid bringing persona history into it in part because using my clear dates to validate my opinions gets dangerously close to shutting down other people solely based on theirs, or looking hypocritical if somebody beat me to it and we disagree and i don't back down, and I'd rather not.

Again, it's not personal, and I realize my blunt nature is probably super off-putting to people who don't know me. It's part of why I try to walk away instead of getting ragier (I have edited this three times and autocorrect keeps changing it back. technology why).

and fwiw I didn't heal Creator prog, just post-clear goofing off, but we did intentionally take AST/WHM into A12S over SCH/WHM because nothing SCH had to offer paired with WHM outweighed Balance in that specific fight.
 
I'm argumentative by nature, and enjoy debate. I also try to cut myself off when I see it getting circular. Nothing personal, just when we're clearly getting nowhere I'm going to stop. And say so. Bluntly, as is my tradition.

I've spent a lot of time digging into where I think Creator failed and how specifically the design of the tier favored the ASTLogs padding phenomenon in a way that Gordias and Midas didn't; I try to avoid bringing persona history into it in part because using my clear dates to validate my opinions gets dangerously close to shutting down other people solely based on theirs, or looking hypocritical if somebody beat me to it and we disagree and i don't back down, and I'd rather not.

Again, it's not personal, and I realize my blunt nature is probably super off-putting to people who don't know me. It's part of why I try to walk away instead of getting racier.

and fwiw I didn't heal Creator prog, just post-clear goofing off, but we did intentionally take AST/WHM into A12S over SCH/WHM because nothing SCH had to offer paired with WHM outweighed Balance in that specific fight.

Thats fine and we can agree to disagree. You probably cleared much earlier than I have since I was in a casual static that was stuck on a11s for the longest time while I was getting my page clears from a friend.

I don't think posting your reference hurts, if anything it helps. I would be able to look at your fflogs and see your perspective of why you prefer the comp you do and what not.

Also I think balance wasn't nearly as bad in HW as it is in SB right now. Balance is just way too strong in comparison to a classes self buff, while in HW it wasn't really the case. Hopefully they just get rid of the effect entirely and the meta shifts from being so dmg focused.
 
Since they basically confirmed Protect doesn't fucking matter, are we gonna have healers who refuse to cross class it now and Tanks BabyRageing at them for it? :thonkang:

I just use one of these swap macros now. Click it, it swaps to Protect, casts it, then swaps back to Eye for an Eye. Can't reprotect in combat but since it barely matters it's fine.

If DPS can choose not to have Goad or Diversion, or just not use them, not sure why healers need to have protect though.
 

Isaccard

Member
you have healers refusing to bring esuna to dungeons and range dps that refuse to bring TP song.

Yeah but those arent 'should healers dps y/n' levels of controversy

Protect being whatever seems like a big deal? Thinking about it now, was content previously tuned with Protect in mind? And if they decided to cross role it, why change it now, and they basically say it doesnt matter, but then make it cross role anyway?

wat
 

iammeiam

Member
Yeah but those arent 'should healers dps y/n' levels of controversy

Protect being whatever seems like a big deal? Thinking about it now, was content previously tuned with Protect in mind? And if they decided to cross role it, why change it now, and they basically say it doesnt matter, but then make it cross role anyway?

wat

My read of that was they were going to just remove it and tune everything to protect-doesn't-exist levels.

Then Yoshida's deep Final Fantasy fandom kicked in and he saved Protect because of its steady presence in the franchise, kept it in game, so they keep tuning raids and crap around Protect existing.

So basically healers have to waste a cross-role slot on something that could be patched out of the game entirely and change nothing aside from freeing up the role slot.
Healers would have more choice and freedom if they removed it from the game and nothing else would be impacted, but here we are.
 
My read of that was they were going to just remove it and tune everything to protect-doesn't-exist levels.

Then Yoshida's deep Final Fantasy fandom kicked in and he saved Protect because of its steady presence in the franchise, kept it in game, so they keep tuning raids and crap around Protect existing.

So basically healers have to waste a cross-role slot on something that could be patched out of the game entirely and change nothing aside from freeing up the role slot.
Healers would have more choice and freedom if they removed it from the game and nothing else would be impacted, but here we are.

Change Divine Benison's name and animation to Protect.

Yoship can send me the check later.
 
ffxiv is a great game but there still some all sorts of head scratchers. Healer and healer cross role are one of the few.

But its just a minor thing for now. Hope they fix it in time.

Also random venting; just facepalm that ppl think SAM is just straight up amaze balls compared to MNK. These ppl just look at dps numbers and dont realize SAM is like one patch balance away from behind relegated to HW mnk.
 

Buggy Loop

Gold Member
Started playing today. I want to eventually be RDM. But in the meantime, what's a good DD beginning class till lvl 50? Will i need to group a lot? any DD class favored over another? Or will it be mostly solo? Best soloer?
So far i'm pugilist but, the combo is pretty boring, well as of lvl 11 lol.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Started playing today. I want to eventually be RDM. But in the meantime, what's a good DD beginning class till lvl 50? Will i need to group a lot? any DD class favored over another? Or will it be mostly solo? Best soloer?
Level as back mage :)

Edit: unless you want a free healer at 50 later then level smn to 50
 
Y'all both need to walk away.

That said, asking for qualifications is fucking dumb.

The person you're arguing with is a hardcore raider. Will her opinion suddenly mean more if she beat alex on week 4 rather than 6?

In retrospect, the thread title of "Y'all need to calm down" ended up being the funniest possible one.
 

Alex

Member
If they want the flavor but not the cross role just give WHM Protect, SCH Shell and each AST stance a variant of each.
 

Frumix

Suffering From Success
Thats fine and we can agree to disagree. You probably cleared much earlier than I have since I was in a casual static that was stuck on a11s for the longest time while I was getting my page clears from a friend.

I don't think posting your reference hurts, if anything it helps. I would be able to look at your fflogs and see your perspective of why you prefer the comp you do and what not.

Also I think balance wasn't nearly as bad in HW as it is in SB right now. Balance is just way too strong in comparison to a classes self buff, while in HW it wasn't really the case. Hopefully they just get rid of the effect entirely and the meta shifts from being so dmg focused.

What?

The Balance in Creator was just as bad as it is now - 20%.

You can say that compared to personal buffs it's higher now - but it isn't, it raised expected DPS by a % and now it does the same by that same %. AST was part of the reason why Creator just bent over and died as fast as it did, that's undeniable. When one job can distribute 40 second trick attacks what balancing is there even to talk about, there isn't, nothing can possibly compensate for giving that much power. SCH was OP, yes, Bokchoy's opinion you linked is of course correct, but how does this correlate with the fact that healing throughput of WHM was not needed and that healing power of WHM was so excessive that AST could do its job just as easily WHILE giving out 40s trick attacks? Are you just missing the point that iammeiam was trying to make the whole time?

WHM at the time was also quite limited by the MP - which is not the case anymore, and STILL WHM's personal DPS can't compare with 8-man card of Azeyma, our sun goddess of free log padding.

I'm still not sure what exactly was the point, that SCH was OP or that SCH/WHM was a good comp in lolCreator, because the first is quantifiably true the second doesn't stand the scrutiny and I progged creator with some fantastic healers who hit high percentiles simultaneously while on AST/SCH and the only time they thought "Hey maybe we should bring a WHM" was a bit of a moral desperation during some lunacy in A12S on the part of our lesser skilled members.

Finally, the meta will never shift from being damage focused because the game is all about killing the enemy while staying alive as fast as possible. If survival becomes harder all that will end up happening is that damage will be harder to give out, but it will still be the goal - A3S and SCOB Savage were clear testaments to that. The only way to take that away is to make healers and tanks just literally do no damage.

something something this community puts too much value in opinions of top players something something xeno strat something something
 
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