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Final Fantasy XV SPOILER THREAD
- Thread starter Kagari
- Start date
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SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
She did stand up to a giant water snake God who was really mean and threatened to eat people.
I wouldn't do that.
Also travelled around the world contacting the Six despite it making her more and more ill. I'm not saying she's a great female character, nor am I saying the way she's represented is perfectly ok, but there have been much worse. In this very game, actually (Cidney)
PshycoNinja
Member
Yup. Healing the weak and poor. Being a figure of piety and strength for the people of Eos. Holding back the Starscourge. Helping defeat Ardyn. Awaking the Six.
All for Noctis. Not for the people. Not for Eos. All for Noctis.
please don't make me get my essay out again
Yeah because it's not like she had her own duties as an Oracle but stay ignoring facts just to keep up your narrative that everything about her is shit.
What proof do we have that Stella would have been a strong antagonist let alone a good character. All the female KH characters aren't that great; Aqua is decent but her storyline is based around two men but she can fight so she's a great female character (tm).
FFXV is a sexist game, that's not a narrative it's fact
lol we aren't even taking about whether the game is sexist or not? We're talking about people liking Luna despite the flaws in her character. It seems to personally bother you that people still manage to think she's strong in spite of her issues.
Luna is a shit character because she's a sexist character, that's what I've been saying from the start. You can like her but acknowledge her scripting is sexist af
PshycoNinja
Member
I actually really liked your essay. I love reading things (especially long-form essays like yours) that clash with my own view of something because I like (trying) to have an open mind about everything I have an opinion on. So I do want to start off by saying, thank you for writing that. It did give me food for thought.
That being said, it doesn't mean I won't disagree with it in some ways. And having an open, honest, and thought-provoking discussion is something that I personally welcome.
I can tell you did put a lot of thought and effort into it. I applaud you for it. But I also thought in some respects it was intellectually dishonest because of how it left out things that Luna, as a character, does. It left out the fact that she did hold back the Starscourge. It left out the fact that she healed the weak and poor from the illness caused by the Starscourge. It left out the fact that she was seen by the people of Eos as this strong figure who could make everything better, but behind the scenes she was getting weaker and weaker due to her role as Oracle. It left out the fact that her actions in Chapter 9 affected the outcome of the final battle between Ardyn and Noctis.
The thing is if she wanted to do everything for Noctis and herself, she would've abandoned her role as the Oracle and run off with Noctis. (Which I am sure Noctis would've been happy to do) And she knew the outcome for Noctis. She put her duty to Eos and the people above Noctis and her happiness and lives.
I know optically to you she comes across as a weak character. And that, therefore, translates as the game being sexist. I am not here to argue how you feel about the character because there is no possible way for me to argue your own subjective thoughts on the game. I am not going to argue subjectivity because that would be intellectually dishonest of me to shut down subjective opinions. I am here to simply state my own view of how the game presented Luna's character and what her role was in the game. She did not exist solely for Noctis to get sad when she died. She played an active and vital role in the story and the saving of Eos and its people.
Yes, Noctis got sad when she died. But if it was not for her actions throughout the game the world would be lost in darkness earlier in the story and Ardyn would've won unchallenged. She is central to the story and the saving of Eos.
I hated we didn't see more of Luna like when we see her at the end of Chapter 2 (I believe) she would've been much better realized in the game world if we SAW more of her actions. I didn't think the game was sexist, I just think the game focused on only Noctis and almost everyone else was not important not just the female characters.
The key problems with 15 is 95% because of how it handles narrative (the other 5% is how it handles sidequests). Its because of that narrative structure and lack of focus that a lot of character fall into (though some are arguable) lazy or ill-matched tropes. Luna is very obviously supposed to be a clone-mix of Yuna and Aerith(more so Aerith)
Many characters have slight hints of interesting dynamics (both male and female):
- Cindy's upbringing is brought up a couple of times and is suggested to have been a key part in making her a workoholic. This isn't developed upon other than a reference or 2.
- Cor is seen having a guilt complex for not having been near the king upon his death. This is given only a single dialogue and is never expanded
- Regis knows MUCH more than he ever is shown to. He also only appears like twice in the game, so its never expanded upon.
- Don't even get me started on how pathetically non-expanded the "road trip" Regis and co. went on. Seriously wtf was that road trip about and why was it so important?!
- and with Luna, there are very very strong suggestions that she knew Noctis had to die and that both of them pretty much exist as just roles for the world. again, this is never expanded upon.
The game presents 2 main foils:
Ardyn and Noctis
and
Luna and Noctis
With Ardyn and Noctis, its very much a standard villain-hero thing that has time to develop between them. We see real growth and understanding through their foil.
With Luna and Noctis, its much more akin to Zero and X in Megaman x, but in relation the the idea of accepting a horrible fate. If you compare how Noctis acts before and after the time skip, he basically becomes Luna-like afterwards. He becomes accepting, moving and somewhat manipulative in events to try and facilitate understanding and prosperity while accepting self sacrifice. This became much more clear to me upon my second playthrough and looking at various cutscenes online again.
What I think they were trying to go for with the story between Noct and Luna was that they had different ideas relating on their fates, but both really just wanted to see each other again and be happy, and in a twist, they are never really allowed to until they both die.
The problem with Luna is that she isn't fleshed out nearly enough before her death, and none of the interesting parts of her character are really ever explored. Its because of this, i feel, that she ends up becoming a "woman as narrative push device" and "woman for the sake of the man" type character. I do not believe her character was ever meant that way, however. Narratives do a LOT in our perception of a character and how they act. Our LACK of narrative w/ Luna is a big big part of her problematic nature. I honestly think there were a lot of good ideas around her character and I do honestly believe that they thought they were making "a strong woman character", but missed the ball because they put what should have been a 50+ hour rpg in a 20 hour body.
I honestly think that if we had seen more of her childhood (maybe her mother explaining her fate about how both the Oracle and the King must die or something dark
) or maybe seen more of what she has done for the world (more scenes like the "healing the sick" cutscene) then we wouldn't be complaining nearly as much.
Many characters have slight hints of interesting dynamics (both male and female):
- Cindy's upbringing is brought up a couple of times and is suggested to have been a key part in making her a workoholic. This isn't developed upon other than a reference or 2.
- Cor is seen having a guilt complex for not having been near the king upon his death. This is given only a single dialogue and is never expanded
- Regis knows MUCH more than he ever is shown to. He also only appears like twice in the game, so its never expanded upon.
- Don't even get me started on how pathetically non-expanded the "road trip" Regis and co. went on. Seriously wtf was that road trip about and why was it so important?!
- and with Luna, there are very very strong suggestions that she knew Noctis had to die and that both of them pretty much exist as just roles for the world. again, this is never expanded upon.
The game presents 2 main foils:
Ardyn and Noctis
and
Luna and Noctis
With Ardyn and Noctis, its very much a standard villain-hero thing that has time to develop between them. We see real growth and understanding through their foil.
With Luna and Noctis, its much more akin to Zero and X in Megaman x, but in relation the the idea of accepting a horrible fate. If you compare how Noctis acts before and after the time skip, he basically becomes Luna-like afterwards. He becomes accepting, moving and somewhat manipulative in events to try and facilitate understanding and prosperity while accepting self sacrifice. This became much more clear to me upon my second playthrough and looking at various cutscenes online again.
What I think they were trying to go for with the story between Noct and Luna was that they had different ideas relating on their fates, but both really just wanted to see each other again and be happy, and in a twist, they are never really allowed to until they both die.
The problem with Luna is that she isn't fleshed out nearly enough before her death, and none of the interesting parts of her character are really ever explored. Its because of this, i feel, that she ends up becoming a "woman as narrative push device" and "woman for the sake of the man" type character. I do not believe her character was ever meant that way, however. Narratives do a LOT in our perception of a character and how they act. Our LACK of narrative w/ Luna is a big big part of her problematic nature. I honestly think there were a lot of good ideas around her character and I do honestly believe that they thought they were making "a strong woman character", but missed the ball because they put what should have been a 50+ hour rpg in a 20 hour body.
I honestly think that if we had seen more of her childhood (maybe her mother explaining her fate about how both the Oracle and the King must die or something dark
) or maybe seen more of what she has done for the world (more scenes like the "healing the sick" cutscene) then we wouldn't be complaining nearly as much.These are my thoughts as well. The game does have sexist aspects that do personally bother me but to blatantly ignore things that a character does because of bad aspects of the writing or design is weird to me. FFX-2 is not a shit game automatically because of the fanservice moments and dresspsheres nor is Tifa Lockhart or Ashe shit characters because of their fanservice outfits. Also the essay, while had a overall good premise that I agree with, seemed to be come off biased to me.
The problem with Luna is that she isn't fleshed out nearly enough before her death, and none of the interesting parts of her character are really ever explored. Its because of this, i feel, that she ends up becoming a "woman as narrative push device" and "woman for the sake of the man" type character. I do not believe her character was ever meant that way, however. Narratives do a LOT in our perception of a character and how they act. Our LACK of narrative w/ Luna is a big big part of her problematic nature. I honestly think there were a lot of good ideas around her character and I do honestly believe that they thought they were making "a strong woman character", but missed the ball because the put what should have been a 50+ hour rpg in a 20 hour body.
I honestly think that if we had seen more of her childhood (maybe her mother explaining her fate about how both the Oracle and the King must die or something dark
I agree.
This can be said for all of the characters that die really. Idealoas, Regis, and Luna all suffer this fate.
It applies to all the characters really. Prompto, Ardyn, etc.
PshycoNinja
Member
The key problems with 15 is 95% because of how it handles narrative (the other 5% is how it handles sidequests). Its because of that narrative structure and lack of focus that a lot of character fall into (though some are arguable) lazy or ill-matched tropes. Luna is very obviously supposed to be a clone-mix of Yuna and Aerith(more so Aerith)
Many characters have slight hints of interesting dynamics (both male and female):
- Cindy's upbringing is brought up a couple of times and is suggested to have been a key part in making her a workoholic. This isn't developed upon other than a reference or 2.
- Cor is seen having a guilt complex for not having been near the king upon his death. This is given only a single dialogue and is never expanded
- Regis knows MUCH more than he ever is shown to. He also only appears like twice in the game, so its never expanded upon.
- Don't even get me started on how pathetically non-expanded the "road trip" Regis and co. went on. Seriously wtf was that road trip about and why was it so important?!
- and with Luna, there are very very strong suggestions that she knew Noctis had to die and that both of them pretty much exist as just roles for the world. again, this is never expanded upon.
The game presents 2 main foils:
Ardyn and Noctis
and
Luna and Noctis
With Ardyn and Noctis, its very much a standard villain-hero thing that has time to develop between them. We see real growth and understanding through their foil.
With Luna and Noctis, its much more akin to Zero and X in Megaman x, but in relation the the idea of accepting a horrible fate. If you compare how Noctis acts before and after the time skip, he basically becomes Luna-like afterwards. He becomes accepting, moving and somewhat manipulative in events to try and facilitate understanding and prosperity while accepting self sacrifice. This became much more clear to me upon my second playthrough and looking at various cutscenes online again.
What I think they were trying to go for with the story between Noct and Luna was that they had different ideas relating on their fates, but both really just wanted to see each other again and be happy, and in a twist, they are never really allowed to until they both die.
The problem with Luna is that she isn't fleshed out nearly enough before her death, and none of the interesting parts of her character are really ever explored. Its because of this, i feel, that she ends up becoming a "woman as narrative push device" and "woman for the sake of the man" type character. I do not believe her character was ever meant that way, however. Narratives do a LOT in our perception of a character and how they act. Our LACK of narrative w/ Luna is a big big part of her problematic nature. I honestly think there were a lot of good ideas around her character and I do honestly believe that they thought they were making "a strong woman character", but missed the ball because they put what should have been a 50+ hour rpg in a 20 hour body.
I honestly think that if we had seen more of her childhood (maybe her mother explaining her fate about how both the Oracle and the King must die or something dark
I agree with both of you.
Although... when you complete Cindy's sidequest you get an idea of what made her the way she is. This is paired with what Cid says on the boat ride to Altissia and it really paints the picture of who she is about and what her past is. But I acknowledge that not everyone will go through the effort to get the information about a side character's past that helps define them more. I personally like games where I have to do a characters side quest to learn more about them, but I know that's not everyone's cup of tea.
Edit:
I am... gonna disagree there. I think the main party and the villain are well established. Just like with any good FF, we want to know even more about these characters and learn even more about them, but they are well established and are great characters.
You don't think there is an issue learning about Prompto's father through a guidebook and not the game? Also a lot of people were confused with the whole Ardyn was really a Lucis Caelum all along; I think it would have helped if they had fleshed his backstory more.
eh. Ardyn gets a lot more backstory (through exposition and what have you, but still) and definitely works better in terms of us getting a feel for him as a character, and prompto is one of the more interesting and fleshed out characters (assuming you got the motel scene with him). The problem w/ Prompto is that we just are left in the dark relating to his twist. I'm sure it will be expanded in his DLC, but I could have definitely used more when it came to the reveal that he was a Nif.
(the ardyn stuff makes more sense if you listen to talcot before entering insomnia, and if you listen to the guys when you look at murals before fighting Ardyn)
I've finished that questline and... yeah kinda. Its not really as overt as all that. I think what i'm getting at is that they could have done a lot better at presenting those interesting parts. It felt like bits and pieces was my point. Like, it should have been more upfront with her workoholic personality stemming from trauma than it ended up being. It was weaker than i had hoped, lets say.
PshycoNinja
Member
I definitely think that is an issue. But I don't think that changes who Prompto is as a character. If that information was never in the guide book people wouldn't know any better.
I think Ardyn is well done. They (and he) talk about his past pretty extensively in Chapter 13.
I believe the intention was not to be heavy-handed with it and be a little subtle about it, as a person wouldn't tell you their entire life story in one go. They would slowly reveal information as they get to know one another.
The key problems with 15 is 95% because of how it handles narrative (the other 5% is how it handles sidequests). Its because of that narrative structure and lack of focus that a lot of character fall into (though some are arguable) lazy or ill-matched tropes. Luna is very obviously supposed to be a clone-mix of Yuna and Aerith(more so Aerith)
Many characters have slight hints of interesting dynamics (both male and female):
- Cindy's upbringing is brought up a couple of times and is suggested to have been a key part in making her a workoholic. This isn't developed upon other than a reference or 2.
- Cor is seen having a guilt complex for not having been near the king upon his death. This is given only a single dialogue and is never expanded
- Regis knows MUCH more than he ever is shown to. He also only appears like twice in the game, so its never expanded upon.
- Don't even get me started on how pathetically non-expanded the "road trip" Regis and co. went on. Seriously wtf was that road trip about and why was it so important?!
- and with Luna, there are very very strong suggestions that she knew Noctis had to die and that both of them pretty much exist as just roles for the world. again, this is never expanded upon.
The game presents 2 main foils:
Ardyn and Noctis
and
Luna and Noctis
With Ardyn and Noctis, its very much a standard villain-hero thing that has time to develop between them. We see real growth and understanding through their foil.
With Luna and Noctis, its much more akin to Zero and X in Megaman x, but in relation the the idea of accepting a horrible fate. If you compare how Noctis acts before and after the time skip, he basically becomes Luna-like afterwards. He becomes accepting, moving and somewhat manipulative in events to try and facilitate understanding and prosperity while accepting self sacrifice. This became much more clear to me upon my second playthrough and looking at various cutscenes online again.
What I think they were trying to go for with the story between Noct and Luna was that they had different ideas relating on their fates, but both really just wanted to see each other again and be happy, and in a twist, they are never really allowed to until they both die.
The problem with Luna is that she isn't fleshed out nearly enough before her death, and none of the interesting parts of her character are really ever explored. Its because of this, i feel, that she ends up becoming a "woman as narrative push device" and "woman for the sake of the man" type character. I do not believe her character was ever meant that way, however. Narratives do a LOT in our perception of a character and how they act. Our LACK of narrative w/ Luna is a big big part of her problematic nature. I honestly think there were a lot of good ideas around her character and I do honestly believe that they thought they were making "a strong woman character", but missed the ball because they put what should have been a 50+ hour rpg in a 20 hour body.
I honestly think that if we had seen more of her childhood (maybe her mother explaining her fate about how both the Oracle and the King must die or something dark
There's a half truth here. Luna and Regis actually get quite a lot of character development / screen time in the FFXV universe. It's just that that time is contained almost exclusively in Kingsglaive. I can understand SE's logic for this: Luna, Nyx, and Regis are able to get their 'moments' and story beats in Kingsglaive while it's all Noctis and the bros in XV. HOWEVER, like with XIII, breaking the story across mediums just does not work (and that's even besides the fact that we actually got the FFXV extended universe in the West this time).
By splitting the narrative apart like this, there was little integration between the two halves, some much so that Kingsglaive feels like a different world than XV's Lucis. We never explore or see any signs of Galahad, we never see Libertus again, we never see the big battlefield in the opening of the movie nor where Crowe's 'incident took place. It looks like SE is trying to incorporate some of the big nasties (i.e. Cerberus) into the game proper now but I remain disappointed we did not see more of the world Kingsglaive was teasing.
I've probably said this before, but Nioh's Yuki-onna would really have been the perfect direction to go in for continuity between Shiva and Gentiana's designs.
But I guess we did get anatomically correct details in official Final Fantasy assets with the final version, which is a unique enough situation to be worth preserving.
But I guess we did get anatomically correct details in official Final Fantasy assets with the final version, which is a unique enough situation to be worth preserving.
Funny thing is, I find Luna's treatment in Kingsglaive far more atrocious than in-game. The game's sexist representation comes from Luna's non-representation/involvement.
Kingsglaive has her being uselessly pushed around by Nyx and that awful, awful dialogue she had with Regis in the throne. Every sentence out of her mouth was that she has no hope, no dream, no value in life but to serve Noctis' ascension...yikes...
Kingsglaive has her being uselessly pushed around by Nyx and that awful, awful dialogue she had with Regis in the throne. Every sentence out of her mouth was that she has no hope, no dream, no value in life but to serve Noctis' ascension...yikes...
I really have to disagree with these assessments. Luna's role in life was to keep Eos safe by holding back the Starscourge. The only time she was ever free to live her life for herself was when she was young with Noctis. That's what she truly yearned for: the life with the person that made her happy. The tragedy is that her duty to the Chosen One needed to take precedent (and she was rightl look how things go south only three weeks after she dies)
I just don't think its sexist for any gender to want to spend their lives with the person they love.
Luna's scripting is sexist because her entire character revolves solely around Noctis. Every conversation she has? Either with Noctis or about him. The only time the game hints at passing the Bechdel test is that conversation between Camellia and Luna before summoning Leviathan. I've said this before but she is a textbook satellite love interest.
I understand that but still, the way the character is conceived, she (the Oracle) compliment the King of Lucis in their duty to Eos and often marry them. It can also be inferred that she believes that she can only be truly happy in life with Noctis because when she was 12 and lived with Noctis, before her mother was killed, this was the last tine she was truly happy. It is not unreasonable that given her crummy fate, pining for the good old days with Noctis is preferable. That she grew to love Noctis so strongly, well, there are clear hints that the two have shred a very loving relationship through Umbra for many years.
Loving relationship through Dog-mail, in a world were cell-phones exist. Yes.
She just isn't very well written. Trying to justify her weak characterization with the lore is usually doomed to fail, since both of those things are decided by the writers.
"Where is Lightning" except for Noctis. The evidence that she is Noctis' mother is mounting.
You could easily make the argument that one, or both, were in love with the idea of one another than truly loving each other. At most, they exchange three word sentences and haven't seen each other in 12(?) years. What are her likes/dislikes? Does Noctis know?
Komatsu
Member
This really is the most convoluted and badly delivered plot I have seen in any FF title. I have played basically every game in the series in the last 20 years and yet I have absolutely no handle on half of what the characters say. The narrative is paper-thin and we are told about a lot of Very Important Stuff but not shown.
Take for example Luna's death. Now compare it with the moment, say, Tidus discovers Yuna's journey really is a one-way trip to Zanarkand or when we find out Kefka is way more dangerous than originally thought.
You play FFXV and stuff just happens. It's infuriatingly confusing.
Take for example Luna's death. Now compare it with the moment, say, Tidus discovers Yuna's journey really is a one-way trip to Zanarkand or when we find out Kefka is way more dangerous than originally thought.
You play FFXV and stuff just happens. It's infuriatingly confusing.
uhh.. what?
uhh.. what?
rayman1900
Member
uhh.. what?
Wow Ardyn, you're such a sad story. He said to Noctis when he showed Prompto's gun: Ah ah ah, don't take what's not yours. I didn't know it was about the what Izunia did to him before.
I just finished the game and I wished the story is more fleshed out and a lot of other characters were showed only once or only mentioned what happened to them. Like the empire king was only showed once I think.
Also Ravus becoming good again for Luna was only showed once and then he's dead.
Also, the ending was so sad. Everyone is dead.
I just finished the game and I wished the story is more fleshed out and a lot of other characters were showed only once or only mentioned what happened to them. Like the empire king was only showed once I think.
Also Ravus becoming good again for Luna was only showed once and then he's dead.
Also, the ending was so sad. Everyone is dead.
Embarrassing I know but I just finished the game again today and I am a little fuzzy about the details of the sacrifice. I get that Noctis needed the power of the kings to channel back into the ring to power up the Crystal. But did Bahamut explicitly explain that the sacrifice was him dying to bring that power into the Astral World to destroy Ardyn? How did Ardyn even end up in the Astral World / inside the crystal when he couldn't truly die? Was his defeat by the King of Kings all that was needed to send his soul to the Astral World? Or was Bahamut actively preventing it from entering the crystal in fear it would corrupt the crystal?
I am going to assume that Bahamut wouldn't bring Ardyn's soul there unless he was confident Noctis could destroy him once and for all (hence the 'final test' as it were to defeat his physical form).
I am going to assume that Bahamut wouldn't bring Ardyn's soul there unless he was confident Noctis could destroy him once and for all (hence the 'final test' as it were to defeat his physical form).
Err has it been discussed how messed up it is that Luna pretty much knew Noctis was going to die and still went through with everything to get him there, even though he had no idea himself? I'm pretty sure if I loved someone, I wouldn't be okay with knowing that I'm directly causing that person's death. Why did she just go along with her duties? Why not try to fight destiny or try finding other ways even though it might be for naught? And yeah, she's pretty much an inferior version of Aeris + Yuna, at least for someone who has not watched Kingsglaive (which should not have been a requirement).
PshycoNinja
Member
As I've said before, Luna wants to save the world. She would want to be happy and for Noctis to be happy. But she knows that them running off and shunning their duties would effectively doom the world.
As she has shown throughout the game (and in Kingsglaive), she is all about her duty to Eos and the people who inhabit the planet. Duties first, happiness second.
Only people from the royal circle in Insomnia have cell phones.
I get that but Noctis had no idea about this plan until he essentially had no choice and she was already dead at that point. We're supposed to believe this is a deep love story when they wouldn't even fight for that love (at least one of them)? They don't have to run off but haven't RPGs always been about fighting destiny or fight god? Why would it be hard to believe that there could be other options or paths to the same goal?
It was never billed as a love story though. They were best friends. Noctis cared deeply for her but he didn't even understand how much Luna loved him until he came to Tenebrae. Her death wakes Noctis up to how much she meant to him. It's rather tragic in that way. Luna knew they could never be together. Noctis may have had hope that one day they could have a relationship...
And it's exactly what Ardyn wanted Noctis to feel...
Ehh I don't know about that. The ending and subsequent title logo change tells me it's weighed heavily on the love between Luna and Noctis which is why so many have a problem with it to begin with. It's just not believable. The bro journey is of course there but the whole reason for this was to get to him to Luna to marry her.
Edit: Now that I think about it, it sounds kind of like emotional manipulation just for the whole reason that Noctis knew about none of this stuff to begin with and was being pulled along. And then the guilt hits because Luna died so he could go on with his ascension, so he couldn't just not accept it at that point. Even Gladio alluded to hit when he yelled at Noctis
I think at some point she asked him to run from his destiny judging from Too much never enough lyrics but then the rewrite happend.
BasilZero
Member
I agree with this. Don't really see anything sexist about her role but what is shameful is the amount of screen time she gets which imo she needs more cause with the role she has and what happens to her need more context to get familiar with her character and all.
Maybe they will add some more cutscenes in the future....
But these happens at the end, after Noctis realizes his feelings for Luna. The final scene symbolizes, as Regis explains, their happiness, both free from the burdens of their fates. Here, Noctis and Luna can finally be true to each other.
So the whole fact that they kept in contact through a journal, which Tabata said was solely for romantic reasons should be ignored? Noctis isn't great at expressing his emotions but he was looking forward to seeing and marrying her.
I think it's more that they were very close friends who grew to have feelings for each other, Luna moreso than Noctis. Remember, Noctis was resistant/ indifferent to the marriage idea at the start of the trek. As the story progressed, he realized that he did really love her. Unfortunately, the revelation comes too late. Starting at her speech in Altissia and culminating with the story from the young child in Tenebrae, Noctis finally realizes how much Luna loved him back, but only after she was gone. It's what makes their story so tragic.
That's what the argument is mostly about though, with people arguing that she's not her own character and is just a plot point for Noctis vs those arguing that she is a character.
I mean I'm probably not going to change your mind, but to me it was supposed to be a love story from the start but it's a terribly executed one which is why some people are saying that it's not a love story. And as I mentioned in my previous post, my opinion is that Noctis isn't really good at expressing himself and his emotions. He is shy and withdrawn so it makes sense that he doesn't like to talk about his feelings.
Fair enough. I just don't think that SE advertised their relationship as being a love story central to the plot. The wedding itself was always positioned as a Niflheim plot that Noctis and his father were very cautious of (and right fully so!).
Speaking of which, Regis deserves shade too because he sent Noctis out to die too and he knew it! -_-