That's not Elise.
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Fire Emblem Fates |OT| Nohr does what Hoshidon't
- Thread starter Shun
- Start date
That's not Elise.
Resetting complicates the assessment. There's nothing deep or interesting about avoiding the classic mode fail state. Most players find the solution immediately: if someone dies, you just reset. That's never an interesting tactical decision. So either you play in such a way that you never get caught out, or else sometimes you do get caught out, something goes bad, and you only have one viable option. Is making a decision where there's only one viable option in any way tactically engaging?
So if you're resetting (and why aren't you?) there's a trade off: Classic means you have a lot of super high-stress decisions with some super low-complexity reset "decisions" sprinkled in. Casual means you have a lot of high-stress decisions sprinkled with other high-stress decisions. I just lost someone important: can I recover from this? How?
A lot of the time in Classic, I'd get four turns into a map, only to trigger some reinforcements that just outright murder a weak flank. Then I reset and anticipate those reinforcements. In Casual, you can fight on beyond a surprise; now you're adapting to your problems instead of anticipating them.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I'm pretty sure that, with very few exceptions, playing on casual would be mindnumbingly easy.
I can't really think of a situation outside of like, FE6 or FE13's earlygame where a single unit was so necessary that losing them would make a map unclearable. Even then, aside from Marcus/Frederick in those chapters, anyone else dying would have no bearing on my strategy.
Comparatively, trying to get through chapter 4 or 7 of FE6HM without losing anyone really tested my strategic skills. On casual those maps would be boring af though.
I can't really think of a situation outside of like, FE6 or FE13's earlygame where a single unit was so necessary that losing them would make a map unclearable. Even then, aside from Marcus/Frederick in those chapters, anyone else dying would have no bearing on my strategy.
Comparatively, trying to get through chapter 4 or 7 of FE6HM without losing anyone really tested my strategic skills. On casual those maps would be boring af though.
Also, losing EXP for the rest of a map isn't that horrendously bad a consequence. Sure, if you do that over and over with the same units it adds up, but that also means you're playing badly overall. Minor loses of EXP can be made up for relatively easy with a hair bit of a change in strategy.
I can say I've been much better about this for Comquest. I'll have to try the strategy you've outlined, too. It's more or less what I pieced together in a couple of turns, but yeah, you could do this in one.
No need to fight. Takumi really is shit.
J/k. He really does get better after you actually recruit him.
I used Boots on my Corrin so she could get all the way to the boss in 1 move. I don't remember if she could make it all the way otherwise. I also made sure to stack all my Skill items on her since I hadn't used them yet. From there, it was just making sure I had good map placement for for Azura and Jakob who were paired with their flier/horse units so they could get where they needed to go in 1 turn. I also pre-paired Corrin and Ryoma so I wouldn't have to remember.
Finally, I think I gave Sakura a second Hexing Rod as a backup in the off chance Jakob missed.
It's super ironic I had to post that image right before this, but your post got on my nerves, sorry.
It's absolutely ridiculous to contend that not only is Classic somehow not or less tactically rewarding, but that Casual not only moves you from more interesting decisions to interesting decisions, but high stress ones. I absolutely cannot buy that. Casual is purely meant to be an out. A way to shrug your shoulders and move on, and yes, adapt to the change in the flow of the map. Which is fine. I appreciate that it exists. But that's not 'high stress'. There is seriously nothing important at stake in Casual mode other than the map's victory condition. I believe that, yes, there's valid case for an interesting kind of dynamic coming out of unpredictable losses in your formation and trying to finish a map playing around that, but you're seriously saying that playing through a map - all the way through - knowing that you need to be on the ball long enough to either stabilize your situation or beat the map is comparable to 'well my healer is out for this mission, guess I'll just keep trucking' and is anywhere close to as complex a consideration to make overall.
Your whole argument dismisses the entire idea of a 'perfect' Classic run (what all Classic runs typically strive for, hence why they reset every time a unit dies) and conflates resetting with a host of completely unrelated 'tactical' decisions. You keep bringing up resetting like it's a 'tactical decision' and I don't know why. Resetting might as well just be a mechanical response. The 'tactics' and how you play come from avoiding the reset. This isn't hard to understand, I feel, and any claims that this somehow results in a very binary and static strategy are disingenuous at best and ignorant at worst.
And like, FE has tons of mechanisms that force you to invest in the state of the game you leave behind when you reset the game. How many good level-ups did you get that run? For what characters you really like? How much good RNG for criticals or what have you? I got this optional objective this time because I got lucky, how lucky will I be next time? Don't even think about resetting or doing it over again. Think about how much you want to keep those things. That's what's on stake when you play Classic, when you play to make it to the end with everything intact.
Your problem feels like you constantly view Classic like, I don't know, a constant stream of interruption? Which is one way to see it, I guess, but anyone who plays Classic isn't going to tell you about starting a mission, explain what they were doing, say they fucked up and restarted, explain what they were doing again, restarted again, and keep doing that in order until they get to the run they finished the mission on. They'll just talk about the run they finished the mission on, and why that was memorable and at best they'll go 'wow I had to restart a lot for that'. Just look at this very thread. The run where, in the end, you overcame emergent problems and got through with everyone alive with the skin of their teeth, that's what people play Classic for. That's what they remember.
If you're close to the end of a map in Casual, and say, four units have gotten 5+ stat-up levels, but then you screw up and don't notice that the boss has a magical weapon as well as a physical one and blows up the wall you sent to poke them down on the start of the enemy turn. You go 'well, shit', but everything about the game state still remains. You weren't careful, but you didn't need to eat a redo for it. There's appeal in that, certainly, and there are times I wish I could if nothing else, somehow retain those level-ups and such across resets, but the knowledge I'll never be guaranteed that kind of luck again means I'm a ball of nerves and energy in a way that Casual just... inherently acts against. You can relax when you reach the end of a map in Casual. Why wouldn't you? You made it through the important bit. You just go on and it's not like you seriously damaged their place on the 'XP curve' anyways.
And if I'm going to be honest, I'm really unclear on how Casual meaningfully and equitably sees you make moment to moment tactical decisions as opposed to Classic. Your argument suggests that while Classic inherently only gives out 'one' solution to a map (it doesn't), Casual opens up this massive realm of possibility that I just can't understand. Sure, Casual tosses out the one cardinal rule, but it's not like anything else changed. Bows kill fliers, magic kills tanks, Pass is bullshit, etc. You still play the game, in the broad mechanical strokes, the same way. You just don't need to restart when you make a mistake or RNG screws up a vital turn for you. The most efficiently played run of a Casual mission shouldn't look radically different than one done in Classic. At it's most effective in terms of uniquely exploiting mechanics for a strategy, it allows you to send units into bad situations without much concern for the immediate consequences or moreso abuse the simplistic, kill on sight AI to bait enemies into awful positions.
Really. There's nothing deep about playing to avoid the fail state. There is nothing deep or interesting about playing to predict enemy behaviors, testing to see how much you can get away with, rigging odds and taking risks. Maximizing roles that units were designed for and meticulously addressing flaws in your position and doing so in the knowledge that - yes, absolutely - there is a right way and a wrong way that you're going to handle this, and punishment is severe.
This is missing the point. Resetting isn't a 'tactical solution', it's a fail-state. We've been over this. You reset and you try again so you don't need to reset again. This is completely irrelevant to any of the depth of Classic mode.
...yeah? That's where the strategy of the game comes in. The important stakes. The careful turn to turn planning and the knowledge of when you need to act aggressively to remove threats (like a unit with a -slayer item or other weapon that could threaten your composition) and when you need to let enemies come to you. When you need to reposition to the next safest area. And do all of this while trying to maximize support ranks and distribute experience - something notably more difficult and riskier to accomplish in Casual by nature.
Seriously? Casual is explicitly a release valve. I just lost someone important in Casual, how can I recover from this? The answer is much simpler than you're suggesting. You keep playing. Units in Fire Emblem aren't so individually important (outside of Lunatic, and even then, you can afford some losses) that losing a single one would add moment to moment stakes even approaching 'well I basically game over whenever I accidentally leave Azura in range of an archer'.
It's absolutely ridiculous to contend that not only is Classic somehow not or less tactically rewarding, but that Casual not only moves you from more interesting decisions to interesting decisions, but high stress ones. I absolutely cannot buy that. Casual is purely meant to be an out. A way to shrug your shoulders and move on, and yes, adapt to the change in the flow of the map. Which is fine. I appreciate that it exists. But that's not 'high stress'. There is seriously nothing important at stake in Casual mode other than the map's victory condition. I believe that, yes, there's valid case for an interesting kind of dynamic coming out of unpredictable losses in your formation and trying to finish a map playing around that, but you're seriously saying that playing through a map - all the way through - knowing that you need to be on the ball long enough to either stabilize your situation or beat the map is comparable to 'well my healer is out for this mission, guess I'll just keep trucking' and is anywhere close to as complex a consideration to make overall.
Your whole argument dismisses the entire idea of a 'perfect' Classic run (what all Classic runs typically strive for, hence why they reset every time a unit dies) and conflates resetting with a host of completely unrelated 'tactical' decisions. You keep bringing up resetting like it's a 'tactical decision' and I don't know why. Resetting might as well just be a mechanical response. The 'tactics' and how you play come from avoiding the reset. This isn't hard to understand, I feel, and any claims that this somehow results in a very binary and static strategy are disingenuous at best and ignorant at worst.
How often does this happen, like... actually? Seriously, actually, a time where you can't react to reinforcements or move units out of sudden bad situations. You're still adapting to changing circumstances. It's not like Awakening where reinforcements came out of nowhere and just murked some guys because you weren't expecting it. You had a weak flank and now you need to rethink how you're going to get out of it. That's a changing scenario and you certainly don't need to soft reset as soon as that happens and go 'well I guess I won't put my units in that area of the map again'. One that you adapt to and revise your entire plan for. There are tons of personal anecdotes that I can offer regarding my experience in Conquest that can attest to this sort of on the fly improvisation. And times that something bad happened where I pulled through in spite of how bad it initially looked because I did everything I could do put myself in the best possible position when shit went south.
And like, FE has tons of mechanisms that force you to invest in the state of the game you leave behind when you reset the game. How many good level-ups did you get that run? For what characters you really like? How much good RNG for criticals or what have you? I got this optional objective this time because I got lucky, how lucky will I be next time? Don't even think about resetting or doing it over again. Think about how much you want to keep those things. That's what's on stake when you play Classic, when you play to make it to the end with everything intact.
Your problem feels like you constantly view Classic like, I don't know, a constant stream of interruption? Which is one way to see it, I guess, but anyone who plays Classic isn't going to tell you about starting a mission, explain what they were doing, say they fucked up and restarted, explain what they were doing again, restarted again, and keep doing that in order until they get to the run they finished the mission on. They'll just talk about the run they finished the mission on, and why that was memorable and at best they'll go 'wow I had to restart a lot for that'. Just look at this very thread. The run where, in the end, you overcame emergent problems and got through with everyone alive with the skin of their teeth, that's what people play Classic for. That's what they remember.
If you're close to the end of a map in Casual, and say, four units have gotten 5+ stat-up levels, but then you screw up and don't notice that the boss has a magical weapon as well as a physical one and blows up the wall you sent to poke them down on the start of the enemy turn. You go 'well, shit', but everything about the game state still remains. You weren't careful, but you didn't need to eat a redo for it. There's appeal in that, certainly, and there are times I wish I could if nothing else, somehow retain those level-ups and such across resets, but the knowledge I'll never be guaranteed that kind of luck again means I'm a ball of nerves and energy in a way that Casual just... inherently acts against. You can relax when you reach the end of a map in Casual. Why wouldn't you? You made it through the important bit. You just go on and it's not like you seriously damaged their place on the 'XP curve' anyways.
And if I'm going to be honest, I'm really unclear on how Casual meaningfully and equitably sees you make moment to moment tactical decisions as opposed to Classic. Your argument suggests that while Classic inherently only gives out 'one' solution to a map (it doesn't), Casual opens up this massive realm of possibility that I just can't understand. Sure, Casual tosses out the one cardinal rule, but it's not like anything else changed. Bows kill fliers, magic kills tanks, Pass is bullshit, etc. You still play the game, in the broad mechanical strokes, the same way. You just don't need to restart when you make a mistake or RNG screws up a vital turn for you. The most efficiently played run of a Casual mission shouldn't look radically different than one done in Classic. At it's most effective in terms of uniquely exploiting mechanics for a strategy, it allows you to send units into bad situations without much concern for the immediate consequences or moreso abuse the simplistic, kill on sight AI to bait enemies into awful positions.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I mean I mentioned those chapters because they're burned into my brain after how long they took. Let's take an example from Fates, specifically Chapter 10 Birthright, which is the ninja swamp.
This is one of the tougher chapters for a few reasons. The damage you take from the traps slowly chips at your units' health. Ninjas are some of the most threatening enemies in the game, as they have debuffs, poison, and always counter. You only have one axe user at this point so at best the only WTA you hace is from Takumi or Setsuna, and bow users have a pretty hard cap on usefulness. Enemy ranges overlap and they're pretty aggressive so you can't just turtle/bait enemies and you need to play aggressively in order to neutralize them before they gang up on a single unit and debuff/poison them to death.
That isn't an issue on casual though because your units are expendale. Sacrificing someone shitty like Orochi isn't a big deal because she won't do much other than bait some strong enemies and get some counters in before she bites it. No one unit is so important to clearing the map will become different if they die, so you can and will play more carelessly.
Classic with resets demamds that you watvh positioning, plan for enemy phase, and use units to their strengths to succeed. None of that wpuld be necessary in a casual mode.
You can't brute force maps on casual. Why are you posting nonsense about something you don't play.
Xenoflare
Member
I mean, if you grind enough since it's Birthright, then I guess brute forcing is possible. But Conquest Casual is not brute forceable at all.
I still reset during Conquest Casual due to the limited nature of the exp, and I'm playing FE7 right now (which is classic by nature) and the same thing still applies.
If it wasn't for casual I'd toss my 3ds out of the window because of Conquest end game.
Unless the person you quoted is implying that people on casual are just throwing units at enemies because lol who cares if they die. When someone dies usually it's the player's fault. Unless it's conquest end game lol wtf is that level.
I mean, you can't brute force it in the strict definition of the word. You can, though, just through fodder units at some problems to fix them in a far easier way than you could otherwise. As long as you're not playing completely terribly, the loss of EXP is a minimal concern.
Slime Scholar
Member
I wouldn't say you can never brute force maps on casual.
The final chapter of Conquest took me several tries to beat without losing anyone on Hard/Classic. It was a huge difficulty spike. I was able to beat the final boss after losing 5+ units twice, before I ended up getting it with everybody alive at the end. Figuring out how to do a map cleanly isn't something that happens immediately and I ultimately had to be far more strategic.
I played Awakening on Casual and it definitely didn't feel as rewarding.
The implication is that casual reduces engagement to such a trivial level grinding doesn't even enter the picture. If you're not scouting maps, Birthright probably isn't much more forcable than Conquest.
If you are losing so many units or losing the same unit so often that EXP differentials start entering the picture, chances are you're making mistakes elsewhere.
I don't disagree! The game can't be played this way. Whether it's casual or classic doesn't change that. And grinding may as well not even enter the discussion because if you're playing this poorly, you're probably not going to finish regardless.
Drilbit777
Member
Chapter 22 is killing me so bad, enemies keep appearing everywhere and when I get close to the boss they all rush towards me. It doesn't also help that theres launchers all over the field and makes it even harder than it needs to be,
Hit Revelations 17 and I'm legit mad.
Like... seriously? I was fine with consecutive chapters when it meant endgame (even though that was a load of crap as well), but now you're throwing me into another chapter right away in the middle of the fucking campaign? Without allowing to save? What the actual hell game? Don't get me started on throwing in fucking liabilities in the middle of a fucking fight. And I say liabilities, because they offer pretty much 0 benefit outside of "Hey, now Leo and Xander can have free pair ups".
I'll call it "my bad", cause I should have known the retainers were coming in, but god... my initial placement of Leo and Xander meant that at least one retainer was gonna get smacked.
And to top it all off, I wasn't even going to run another chapter. I was gonna sleep. But fucking noooooooo you want me to do another chapter in a row. Fuck off Revelations, you've easily been the worst one of the 3 so far even discounting this nonsense.
/endrant
I'll call it "my bad", cause I should have known the retainers were coming in, but god... my initial placement of Leo and Xander meant that at least one retainer was gonna get smacked.
And to top it all off, I wasn't even going to run another chapter. I was gonna sleep. But fucking noooooooo you want me to do another chapter in a row. Fuck off Revelations, you've easily been the worst one of the 3 so far even discounting this nonsense.
/endrant
Astral Dog
Member
I like both Casual and Classic modes 
chrominance
Member
Someone needs to make a version of this with Mozu because I'm convinced Mozu's VA is also Nanako's VA from Persona 4.
theprodigy
Member
lmao no, Birthright isn't easier because you can grind it's easier because enemies are a fucking joke
astrogamer
Member
That is the case. She also voices Hana and Anna and Olivia in Awakening.
Just close the 3DS and go to bed.
Finale Fireworker
Member
I have to just admit that I'm not very good at Fire Emblem.
I could never do Lunatic in Awakening. Watching videos of the process to clear even the earliest maps on Lunatic pushed me away. But I did play Awakening on Hard and had no problem with it at all. I was under the impression "Hard" was the true normal.
But I am on Hard Conquest Map 8, the
, and I can't defeat all the enemies before they eventually kill one of my units. I am getting incrementally better with every reattempt, but the difficulty wall for me is huge.
On this map, you have to defeat the boss and stop at three of the village houses to receive a valuable gold reward. There are also a lot of enemies to kill for experience.
I have Jakob, who people say wrecks house, but I end up having to use him to heal my lead units every turn. If I turtle and play defensively, the enemies reach the village houses before me.
What is the balance? How can I reach three of the houses while also not losing a unit? I'm not using pair-ups until one unit's HP gets low and is too far away to heal. But I keep losing Silas or Effie to mages - which there are a lot of.
I could never do Lunatic in Awakening. Watching videos of the process to clear even the earliest maps on Lunatic pushed me away. But I did play Awakening on Hard and had no problem with it at all. I was under the impression "Hard" was the true normal.
But I am on Hard Conquest Map 8, the
Ice Tribe village
On this map, you have to defeat the boss and stop at three of the village houses to receive a valuable gold reward. There are also a lot of enemies to kill for experience.
I have Jakob, who people say wrecks house, but I end up having to use him to heal my lead units every turn. If I turtle and play defensively, the enemies reach the village houses before me.
What is the balance? How can I reach three of the houses while also not losing a unit? I'm not using pair-ups until one unit's HP gets low and is too far away to heal. But I keep losing Silas or Effie to mages - which there are a lot of.
Use that Freeze rod to stop those spearmen! Take advantage of Niles' and Odin's high resistance! Thaw the lake when enemies are crossing!
In no specific order, those are the main three strategies that got me to 3/5 houses.
Slime Scholar
Member
You might've heard this advice before but you want to rush the left side, and target the two villages that will spawn reinforcements last, fending off reinforcements as they come. Some of them might be impossible to get to, but the houses I targeted were the one you start at and the two on the far left.
I found that Niles, especially when paired with Odin, was sufficient at baiting/stopping mages. If they don't kill, someone can come in for cleanup. You'll pretty much be sticking and moving while handling pursuers along the way until you get all 3 villages.
edit: ninja'd
Finale Fireworker
Member
Thanks for the advice, guys.
I have Freeze rods on both healers, but I was afraid to waste them on "small" enemies. I'm not sure exactly how limited resources are in Conquest, so I have been apprehensive about using them.
I have Freeze rods on both healers, but I was afraid to waste them on "small" enemies. I'm not sure exactly how limited resources are in Conquest, so I have been apprehensive about using them.
Freaking Limit
Member
Something that people should really know is that the resource restriction on Conquest isn't that big of a deal. While you can't grind exp/gold like the other routes (ignoring dlc), they give you a lot as long as you meet optional objectives, like visiting houses and such. Exp only really gets strained if you try to keep your whole army leveled, but if you select a core group you'll find yourself never lacking in exp, and can even skip enemies. I found you could probably support 18 units comfortably without spreading exp too thin if you only do the main game. For equipment, strip new recruits you aren't going to use, feed Lilith for gold bars, check with everyone for random drops, try the lottery, forge your duplicates if you don't need them, etc. Its stuff that is sometimes overlooked, but you'll never be left wanting for more.
As Freaking Limit said, you'll be able to acquire more resources in shops later, specifically Freeze rods. Don't be afraid to make some bold plays since Conquest is stacking the deck against you if you're trying to meet every objective.
It's weird, but for me her voice remember more to Aegis. Each time she talks I am waiting she say "Orgia mode" or something like that.
zelhawks37
Member
On chapter 14 conquest. Chapters are getting easier since 10. This is very similar to hoshido route, so i expect a difficulty spike once enemies have all promoted units which is around 18-19 i assume.
DeployThatPizza
Member
I'm on the Revelations paralogues. Ophelia has pretty high crit rates. With the ability to buy skills now, it'll save me a lot of time from grinding.
I've put in 41 hours in Revelations and I'm nowhere near finishing the game yet. This will be my most played version. I have around 35 hours on Conquest.
Revelations is also a lot easier than Conquest. A lot of my units are over-leveled and end up making the maps a cakewalk. My Corrins is better too. I don't know if that's because Revelations is easier or if it's because he has a better talent/level-ups.
I've put in 41 hours in Revelations and I'm nowhere near finishing the game yet. This will be my most played version. I have around 35 hours on Conquest.
Revelations is also a lot easier than Conquest. A lot of my units are over-leveled and end up making the maps a cakewalk. My Corrins is better too. I don't know if that's because Revelations is easier or if it's because he has a better talent/level-ups.
pokemonsquared
Banned
It is catharthic making a seperate save, then going to conquest engame on phoenix mode where you're now able to rout the map while also laughing in the AI's face as their infinite debuffs, staff debuffs, and reinforcements mean nothing as they kill themselves in a futile endeavor to kill your units who respawn infinitely to take them out as soon as they exhaust their moves over and over and over.
NeonZ
Member
That's true for Awakening - and even Birthright - but Conquest's difficulty levels actually match their names. Hard is hard. It's closer to Radiant Dawn Hard than Awakening Hard.
How does one lose in Phoenix mode?
kuroneko0509
Member
all army got wiped first before at least 1 revived generally I guess...
Corrin dies.
Go left, have a front guard and a rear guard, make sure that your fastest unit will be able to get to the houses on the left side before the enemy reaches them. If you can manage that, the level gets easier.
A freeze staff isn't necessary, I didn't use one on this chapter.
Also remember that pair up is your friend. It negates dual attacks. You need enough units un-paired in order to deal with situations, but for units that are going to be in the way of dual attacks, pairing them up can keep them out of trouble.
Also, in terms of using freeze on "small" enemies, "big" enemies, like bosses, rarely ever move.
Criticals should be banned on the endgame.
What possessed them to think it was a good idea to have a no-save endgame? It's just a waste of time and shows disrespect for the players. I'm seriously going to send them mail chewing them out for this, because they've never pulled this crap before.
What possessed them to think it was a good idea to have a no-save endgame? It's just a waste of time and shows disrespect for the players. I'm seriously going to send them mail chewing them out for this, because they've never pulled this crap before.
No, it's literally impossible to lose in Phoenix Mode (outside of maps with unique failure conditions at least). Also you don't even Game Over in Casual if Corrin dies.
(When I tried Phoenix Mode out of curiosity, enemies also couldn't Dual Strike. It's already impossible to lose, what's the point of that...?)
Pretty sure the 'no save between chapters' endgame thing was done before. I can't remember which one did it specifically, but one even had a boss rush style encounter. It sucks and I don't like it, but it's not new.
theprodigy
Member
wait what
but I think if your whole party gets wiped in one turn on Phoenix Mode you probably lose? or do they actually all come back anyway, cause that would be absolutely hilarious
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Are you thinking of FE7? That's not really a different chapter so much as just the final boss and it's really easy to kill.
FE3, FE6, FE7 and FE8 all had two endgame maps (three maps in FE3's case) with no saving in between.
They all come back anyway! It's seriously impossible to lose.
Maybe. I could've sworn they've done the no thing endgame chapter before as well. Maybe I'm misremembering. I really need to go back and play the pre-Awakening games again. My memory is hazy outside of specific maps.
It is a shitty mechanic, though. I'm not sure why IS thought that was good way to handle things.